LDS Freedom Forum

OK, I'm going to go a little deep here, but no too deep. I've often wondered about something and wanted to get everyone else's opinion. Last Sunday we had a gospel principles discussion on the creation (started over in the gospel principles manual). In the book, it specifies the scripture that says the Lord is omnipotent (obviously) and is 'the beginning and the end'. But that's where I am puzzled - obviously, our Heavenly Father came from another God who came from a God and so on and so forth. So... how can our Lord be the 'beginning and the end'? Surely, the Lord is not the 'beginning' (unless the scriptures are just referring to our specific existence)? Also, in relation to this, we know from scripture as well that God knows the beginning to the end as far as the mortal existence for his spirit children, right?

We also know that certain individuals (such as our prophets, apostles, church leaders in general and others like Moses, Noah, Joseph Smith, etc.) were fore-ordained to be who they were upon this earth. However, given our free agency, was there a guarantee that these men would hold true to the faith and fulfill their missions/callings (in other words, the Lord knew the future and knew they would not stray), or was there a chance they could have stumbled and not fulfilled their fore-ordinations? And lastly - has anyone ever thought about where and how it all could have started? In other words, how did the first God ever come to be? Anyway - food for thought. I'm curious to know whate everyone else thinks.

Yeah I have thought on it - I don;t think we have the capability to comprehend, our heads will explode if we try.

On the one hand logic dictates that there HAD to be a "first". On the other hand, we are told there was no first, it is one eternal round.

We simply cannot comprehend NO beginning and NO end. Everything in our existence has limitations, therefore limitless is incomprehensible. It's akin to a tadpole trying to comprehend quantum physics.

His office and Priesthood is without beginning or end, so his office has been around since the "beginning" and will be until the "end". Also, everyone of us has been around since eternity and will be around for eternity. There was a Bishop before your Bishop and so on, and there will be a Bishop after your Bishop and so on. But the office will be in that Ward from the beginning and will be there till the end of that Ward. The same principle applies here.

There is absolutely a chance that anyone of them/us could stumble and not fulfill our fore ordination.

“And I have given unto him the keys of the mystery of those things which have been sealed, even things which were from the foundation of the world, and the things which shall come from this time until the time of my coming, if he abide in me, and if not, another will I plant in his stead.” (D&C 35:18)

“(F)or if Zion will not purify herself, so as to be approved in all things, in His sight, He will seek another people.” Joseph Smith Jr., Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith (TPJS), pg.18

there was no "first God", then you would have to ask "what was before that?". The Prophet Joseph taught that eternity was one eternal round.

Col. Flagg wrote:OK, I'm going to go a little deep here, but no too deep. I've often wondered about something and wanted to get everyone else's opinion. Last Sunday we had a gospel principles discussion on the creation (started over in the gospel principles manual). In the book, it specifies the scripture that says the Lord is omnipotent (obviously) and is 'the beginning and the end'. But that's where I am puzzled - obviously, our Heavenly Father came from another God who came from a God and so on and so forth. So... how can our Lord be the 'beginning and the end'? Surely, the Lord is not the 'beginning' (unless the scriptures are just referring to our specific existence)? Also, in relation to this, we know from scripture as well that God knows the beginning to the end as far as the mortal existence for his spirit children, right?

We also know that certain individuals (such as our prophets, apostles, church leaders in general and others like Moses, Noah, Joseph Smith, etc.) were fore-ordained to be who they were upon this earth. However, given our free agency, was there a guarantee that these men would hold true to the faith and fulfill their missions/callings (in other words, the Lord knew the future and knew they would not stray), or was there a chance they could have stumbled and not fulfilled their fore-ordinations? And lastly - has anyone ever thought about where and how it all could have started? In other words, how did the first God ever come to be? Anyway - food for thought. I'm curious to know whate everyone else thinks.

....as I understand it....the beginning and the end of this plan of salvation - or one could term it cycle.

Mummy wrote:

Col. Flagg wrote:OK, I'm going to go a little deep here, but no too deep. I've often wondered about something and wanted to get everyone else's opinion. Last Sunday we had a gospel principles discussion on the creation (started over in the gospel principles manual). In the book, it specifies the scripture that says the Lord is omnipotent (obviously) and is 'the beginning and the end'. But that's where I am puzzled - obviously, our Heavenly Father came from another God who came from a God and so on and so forth. So... how can our Lord be the 'beginning and the end'? Surely, the Lord is not the 'beginning' (unless the scriptures are just referring to our specific existence)? Also, in relation to this, we know from scripture as well that God knows the beginning to the end as far as the mortal existence for his spirit children, right?

We also know that certain individuals (such as our prophets, apostles, church leaders in general and others like Moses, Noah, Joseph Smith, etc.) were fore-ordained to be who they were upon this earth. However, given our free agency, was there a guarantee that these men would hold true to the faith and fulfill their missions/callings (in other words, the Lord knew the future and knew they would not stray), or was there a chance they could have stumbled and not fulfilled their fore-ordinations? And lastly - has anyone ever thought about where and how it all could have started? In other words, how did the first God ever come to be? Anyway - food for thought. I'm curious to know whate everyone else thinks.

....as I understand it....the beginning and the end of this plan of salvation - or one could term it cycle.

Was there a first cycle?
Will there be a last cycle???

Original_Intent wrote:

Mummy wrote:

Col. Flagg wrote:OK, I'm going to go a little deep here, but no too deep. I've often wondered about something and wanted to get everyone else's opinion. Last Sunday we had a gospel principles discussion on the creation (started over in the gospel principles manual). In the book, it specifies the scripture that says the Lord is omnipotent (obviously) and is 'the beginning and the end'. But that's where I am puzzled - obviously, our Heavenly Father came from another God who came from a God and so on and so forth. So... how can our Lord be the 'beginning and the end'? Surely, the Lord is not the 'beginning' (unless the scriptures are just referring to our specific existence)? Also, in relation to this, we know from scripture as well that God knows the beginning to the end as far as the mortal existence for his spirit children, right?

We also know that certain individuals (such as our prophets, apostles, church leaders in general and others like Moses, Noah, Joseph Smith, etc.) were fore-ordained to be who they were upon this earth. However, given our free agency, was there a guarantee that these men would hold true to the faith and fulfill their missions/callings (in other words, the Lord knew the future and knew they would not stray), or was there a chance they could have stumbled and not fulfilled their fore-ordinations? And lastly - has anyone ever thought about where and how it all could have started? In other words, how did the first God ever come to be? Anyway - food for thought. I'm curious to know whate everyone else thinks.

....as I understand it....the beginning and the end of this plan of salvation - or one could term it cycle.

Was there a first cycle?
Will there be a last cycle???

Is there a beginning or end to family? Only within the cycle are there beginning and end points!

This diagram might be helpful in further understanding -
http://angelpalmoni.com/AngelPalmoni/Vi ... ONI.html#6

and this one -
http://angelpalmoni.com/AngelPalmoni/Vi ... ONI.html#3

Have to download them and drop them into something like Publisher to scrutinize more carefully. Working on upgrading to Gigapan...but that's still in the works!

Mahonri wrote:His office and Priesthood is without beginning or end, so his office has been around since the "beginning" and will be until the "end". Also, everyone of us has been around since eternity and will be around for eternity. There was a Bishop before your Bishop and so on, and there will be a Bishop after your Bishop and so on. But the office will be in that Ward from the beginning and will be there till the end of that Ward. The same principle applies here.

There is absolutely a chance that anyone of them/us could stumble and not fulfill our fore ordination.

“And I have given unto him the keys of the mystery of those things which have been sealed, even things which were from the foundation of the world, and the things which shall come from this time until the time of my coming, if he abide in me, and if not, another will I plant in his stead.” (D&C 35:18)

“(F)or if Zion will not purify herself, so as to be approved in all things, in His sight, He will seek another people.” Joseph Smith Jr., Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith (TPJS), pg.18

there was no "first God", then you would have to ask "what was before that?". The Prophet Joseph taught that eternity was one eternal round.

Well said................................

by "our"/"Their" natures, we have always been, just manifesting............I am also, the beginning and end....

I agree with OI. This could cause the head to explode.

Here is how it works for me to comprehend infinity. Take air for instance. One might say it is nothing. Well I know that it is indeed something. In fact it is a combination of several atoms that makes oxygen, carbon monoxide, nitrogen, etc.. So if I can understand that nothing is something. Well then something can never be nothing. Eternity does and can exist and be comprehended. In its fulness...no. By its basic form yes.

Now if linear is how we have to view things, than do not place it in a box or anything for that matter. Realize that for all this to be finite or have an ending requires that nothing be on the outside of something. But nothing is actually something indeed.

I can somewhat understand that there is no end, but to comprehend that there was no beginning and that our spiritual 'genealogy' goes back without end, that is beyond me. It makes no sense whatsoever. How then can 'time' exist? Also, 'space' has no end, which makes a little more sense, I think, but is still incomprehensible.

I find a spiritual genealogy with a beginning incomprehensible.

It seems like we are sounding very sectarian on this issue from most of the posts here, which is extremely unfortunate.

I have come to a sort of peace with this topic. I say, is it easier to believe that something came from nothing, or that something always existed? To me, it is slightly harder to comprehend something just appearing from nothing. I mean, really NOTHING. If you imagine something coming into existence, you at least have to ask: upon what principle did this thing appear? There must have been some prinicple already in operation. Yet the existence of that very principle destroys the idea of absolute nothing. Get where I'm coming from?

Anyway, I look around and I see stuff, and seem to think and act. I acknowledge that I have to explain these things in one of two difficult ways: the material and principles and intelligence of which I'm composed either impossibly appeared out of nothing or it already existed. The gospel says the latter and I feel pretty good about that given the alternative.

It's important to remember, we in the West think more in linear terms, whereas those in the East think in more of a spiral, also more symbolic. When everyone brings their records, we'll be able to learn from others, from all over the world, who see things differently than we do. They'll be able to explain things that seem very foreign to us. I've got news for you, we don't have all the answers There are many not of the LDS faith that can teach us great things. I sometimes feel that we limit ourselves to our little bubble, but that's just me. We'll see this clearer some day. We'll see how the Lord has been teaching everywhere and instructing others from around the world and elsewhere. I'd ask the Lord if you want to know, I guarantee, if you ask in faith He'll tell you, in His own way and time and according to His will. That's the only way you'll find out the answers to the mysteries.

Exodus 3
14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

Doctrine & Covenants 38
1 Thus saith the Lord your God, even Jesus Christ, the Great I Am, Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the same which looked upon the wide expanse of eternity, and all the seraphic hosts of heaven, before the world was made;

2 The same which knoweth all things, for all things are present before mine eyes;

11 For all flesh is corrupted before me; and the powers of darkness prevail upon the earth, among the children of men, in the presence of all the hosts of heaven—

12 Which causeth silence to reign, and all eternity is pained, and the angels are waiting the great command to reap down the earth, to gather the tares that they may be burned; and, behold, the enemy is combined.

The concept of ETERNITY has been a life-long puzzlement & study for me, as well.

It appears to me that when we remove our 'mortal' concept of TIME it becomes a whole lot simpler to grasp the concept of ETERNITY.

It is also my opinion that when we attempt to comprehend HOW God organizes the Spirits of Mankind in terms of our mortal understanding of procreation we are apt to be led astray. (That statement may well cause a firestorm, but I can't help it. There it is.)

Doctrine & Covenants 93 points to a 'non-sexual' organization of intelligences:
29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

30 All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there is no existence.

31 Behold, here is the agency of man, and here is the condemnation of man; because that which was from the beginning is plainly manifest unto them, and they receive not the light

I think most of you are looking at this in the wrong way. The statements don't denote time necissarily.

That is correct Clark. The wisdom should be that time tells me where on the eternal ring I am located. Not important to those that understand eternity. Time is still relevant to our probation. It is the completion of that probation that time will then become less relevant and no longer a necessary tool to understand our standing in the eternities.

To expand on the above we are told again that 'intelligences' coexisted WITH God in the Eternities.

Abraham 3
17 Now, if there be two things, one above the other, and the moon be above the earth, then it may be that a planet or a star may exist above it; and there is nothing that the Lord thy God shall take in his heart to do but what he will do it.

18 Howbeit that he made the greater star; as, also, if there be two spirits, and one shall be more intelligent than the other, yet these two spirits, notwithstanding one is more intelligent than the other, have no beginning; they existed before, they shall have no end, they shall exist after, for they are gnolaum, or eternal.

19 And the Lord said unto me: These two facts do exist, that there are two spirits, one being more intelligent than the other; there shall be another more intelligent than they; I am the Lord thy God, I am amore intelligent than they all.

20 The Lord thy God sent his angel to deliver thee from the hands of the priest of Elkenah.

21 I dwell in the midst of them all; I now, therefore, have come down unto thee to declare unto thee the works which my hands have made, wherein my wisdom excelleth them all, for I rule in the heavens above, and in the earth beneath, in all wisdom and prudence, over all the intelligences thine eyes have seen from the beginning; I came down in the beginning in the midst of all the intelligences thou hast seen.

22 Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones;

23 And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast chosen before thou wast born.

Of course, we have the agency to choose whether or not we will fulfill the responsibilities we are given in the pre-existence.

Doctrine & Covenants 93
30 All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there is no existence.

31 Behold, here is the agency of man, and here is the condemnation of man; because that which was from the beginning is plainly manifest unto them, and they receive not the light

Col. think of it as scientific modeling. God saw the end from the beginning because He was in and through all things and thus knew all the variables and could model the entire system in perfection. His statements to us are for us and not applicable wholly to all eternity. Modeling a result has nothing to do with agency and everything to do with wisdom, knowledge and scientific modeling by The great intelligence.

One bit of apostasy I'm prone to is to wonder whether God really knows everything. I know we have testimony to that effect and I try to take it to heart--but man, it's hard.

You know when we say, "God has all power" we really qualify that in our religion. We say He is subject to law and operates according to law. And so, when someone asks, "can God make a stone so big He can't lift it?" I have no quandry, because such a statement can only bother a person who admits no limits. I would confidently reply: "God has all power that EXISTS, and it is enough power to do his work;

Similarly, when we say "God knows all things" I'm prone to qualify it just as easily. "He knows everything which can be known and it is enough knowledge to do his work." Well, nothing past or present can be hidden from God AND "HE DOTH UNDERTAKE TO GUIDE THE FUTURE AS HE HAS THE PAST". He's got enough power to do that.

You know, I really wonder if we underestimate the "divine investiture of authority" when we talk about what God knows and does. Note in the temple that Jesus gets less and less detailed in his reports to the father over time-although I don't think I recall the same being true of the reports given to the savior. My point is, the father knows that his will has been carried out knows that Jesus has the wisdom necessary to determine what he needs to include in his report. So he knows everything he needs to know about what transpired.

To me it is unfathomable to be able to model the whole universe perfectly enough to know that in 2 billion years Joe is going to trip over this particular line in the sidewalk in his drunken stumbling. It implies that His mind has enough neurons (or the equivalent) to not only track every particle in his domain, but to emulate every last soul, at far far greater than real time speed. I say this as a programmer. It is a truly stunning thought and I struggle with that.

Furthermore, I have a truly hard time accepting that God does not experience time in a roughly similar fashion to ourselves, it just doesn't mean much to him. I mean, we spend our whole probation studying CAUSE and EFFECT. If-then. It seems to me that these two things, which have an implied time-relationship, continues to have meaning in the hereafter.

I have a truly hard time accepting that God does not experience time in a roughly similar fashion to ourselves

I've heard it said that TIME was invented so that everything doesn't happen all at once.

Braingrunt -

Check out Blake T Ostlers book, Exploring Mormon Thought Vol I, the Attributes of God.

Several chapters in there deal with exactly what you are talking about.

Wow, thanks for the replies so far everyone - I appreciate it.

To me it is unfathomable to be able to model the whole universe perfectly enough to know that in 2 billion years Joe is going to trip over this particular line in the sidewalk in his drunken stumbling.

I get where you are coming from, but He has help and it isn't necessarily all in His head. Read about neutrinos and the "intelligent universe" theories and you can see how He (through dark matter/neutrinos) can be in and through all things. That data samples everything, it is literally in and through all things. Perhaps He uses a super computer, and perhaps it looks like a giant sea of glass?

Really we do ourselves a disservice by equating God to an authorized sort of "magic." He is the scientist and it's all real and tangible if not understood fully.

http://www.astro.wisc.edu/~larson/Webpa ... rinos.html

Neutrinos are everywhere. They permeate the very space all around us. They can be found throughout our galaxy, in our sun and every second tens of thousands of neutrinos are passing through your body. But there is no need to become alarmed for these tiny particles barely interact with anything. In fact, they can even pass through the entire Earth without being affected.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... Id=5380562 (has a good poem)

http://www.humandesignnw.com/neutrinos.htm

The universe is filled with billions and billions of neutrinos traveling through space at nearly the speed of light. They are so small that they pass through planets and people with ease. There is no "neutrino shield." They pass through everything. One source of neutrinos is stars. The intense nuclear fusion reactions that power the stars create all kinds of sub-atomic particles, including neutrinos. These neutrinos race out in all directions bound for the edge of the universe.

We are constantly bombarded by these neutrinos. To get an idea of how many neutrinos pass through us each second, imagine that a neutrino is a molecule of water. Now imagine that you are standing at the bottom of Niagara Falls. The shower of neutrinos is immense. Unlike standing under a waterfall, the shower of neutrinos comes from all directions so that we are soaked in their flow.

According to Human Design, these neutrinos have properties or characteristics. These properties may be caused by the vibrating superstrings that compose neutrinos, and the properties may be shaped by the stars that create them. When neutrinos pass through an object, their properties are modified, and the objects through which they pass are also changed. Large objects, like planets, have a significant effect on the properties of the neutrinos that pass through them.

http://lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/ ... lang=eng#6

6The angels do not reside on a planet like this earth;

7But they reside in the presence of God, on a globe like a sea of glass and fire, where all things for their glory are manifest, past, present, and future, and are continually before the Lord.

8The place where God resides is a great Urim and Thummim.

9This earth, in its sanctified and immortal state, will be made like unto crystal and will be a Urim and Thummim to the inhabitants who dwell thereon, whereby all things pertaining to an inferior kingdom, or all kingdoms of a lower order, will be manifest to those who dwell on it; and this earth will be Christ’s.

Sea of Glass= giant supercomputer. (note that it doesn't say that all things are in His brain, but continually before Him and manifest.)

Does that help?

Also read the theory about God existing at the place where these neutrinos emanate from on another thread (Kolob Theorum).