Homestead Heritage & Intentional Communities

[mudflap]

not to bag on the church some more, but all they've been preaching - career-wise, anyway - is to get as much education as you can, which everyone interprets as "go to college and become a lawyer", so that's what the herd is doing.

Meanwhile, their kids think milk comes from a carton.

[tmac]

not to bag on the church some more, but all they've been preaching - career-wise, anyway - is to get as much education as you can, which everyone interprets as "go to college and become a lawyer", so that's what the herd is doing.

Meanwhile, their kids think milk comes from a carton.

I don't think I could say it any better.

Even here on LDSFF, what are there, maybe a half dozen or so people, who share any contrary paradigm (to the mainstream) on this issue?

[JuneBug12000]

not to bag on the church some more, but all they've been preaching - career-wise, anyway - is to get as much education as you can, which everyone interprets as "go to college and become a lawyer", so that's what the herd is doing.

Meanwhile, their kids think milk comes from a carton.

Or worse, that milk is bad.

[mudflap]

That is awesome tmac! If I wasn't here, I would be there.

I hope you find the right people.

I've learned some interesting things in this process.

The first is that there are very, very few mainstream Mormons (TBMs?) with a productive and reproductive orientation anymore, and almost none that have any interest in production agriculture and/or an agrarian lifestyle. Of the younger generations, interest in that stuff can virtually not be found on the radar screens of Mormon millenials, etc.

I had already connected the dots on all that, so I thought that there might be more fertile ground in that regard reaching out to fundamentalists, with whom I have more exposure and background than most. And I've learned some very interesting things there as well, including the fact that Warren Jeffs issued an edict 10-12 years ago that faithful members of the FLDS Church were supposed to abstain from any and all sexual activity, and completely abstain from procreation and having children. Consequently, at least that branch of fundamentalists are completely unreproductive at this point.

In this process, I have run across whole families of faithful FLDS siblings in the 20-35 range, who are all celibate and live and work together in an intentional agrarian community that is essentially like a celibate monastery. It is very interesting, and very disheartening.

The world is really screwed up right now -- on almost every front.

I sincerely wish you the best on this. I cannot believe nobody near there is jumping for this chance at an agrarian lifestyle. I feel like my whole life has been an attempt to get out of the city. Caught the bug at probably age 5, visiting my great aunt's 150 acre ranch in N. CA. Grew up, wanted to get a job as a forest ranger, till I figured out how woke you have to be to work for the Gov. Ex wife wanted to live "in the heart of it all", but somehow I managed to convince her to let me buy a 20 acre parcel with a cabin on it in Paris Idaho. Tried to convince her we should farm it and move there, but she loved city life too much. eventually had to sell my dream after the divorce.

Also taught me that you can't effectively run 2 homes and have a full-time J.O.B. (Just Over Broke). You either live the rural life (and deal with being poor and far away from things and learn how to take care of yourself), or you merely dabble in it on the weekends - "a gentleman farmer", i.e. "Glenn Beck", who owns a ranch, but hires people to run it for him. He's simply "playing rancher". If you spend your life in the city, trying to make enough money to escape, by the time you make enough money, you'll be too old and tired to work the land you could buy with the money. It's a death cycle, or slavery, or maybe both. But ahhhh! the things you can buy in this world with money!

I want none of that - well, I wouldn't mind a thousand acres, but I'm content with the land the Lord blessed me and my wife with. It's been whispered to both of us that riches await us. It's been confirmed that this piece of land is the right piece of land for us at this time, and we'll be blessed there. Meanwhile, my current J.O.B. is extremely easy to work with, and supplies 100% of the funds it takes to build this cabin. But I'm not above quitting if they, say....started requiring a vaccine to keep my J.O.B.. Wife is 100% behind me on this. She likes her shoes, but she knows how to live poor, too. With my "skills" (earned the hard way: through work and struggling), we should be able to survive.

Now, living in AL, feel like I have a second chance at rural life, and I'm taking my best shot at it with the debt-free cabin.

I'm starting to wonder.....can all these agrarian lifestyle farms connect economically somehow? It seems like if enough of them banded together with trade agreements (I'm serious), we could enable more folks to escape the current 9-5 slavery.

I would guess that location is a major limiting factor for most folks.

The biggest limiting factor is that at this point there just aren't enough people who care and/or have a clue what to do about it.

yeah, I guess I was too hopeful. That is the saddest part right there: "aren't enough people who care". Mormons USED to be the most independent folks in the USA, but we've since learned how to sell that birthright for a porridge of speculating along the wasatch front.

Give me 4-5 years on my own land, and don't bother me, and I'll have my own garden of Eden. Can't wait.

[Jason]

Riverbed Ranch in Juab County is doing this. I've visited there and they do have a very compelling story. The only problem I have with it is the location is not one I would pick. I just wish they had other such co-ops in other locations.
The upsides: lots of people all building a tiny town with little enterprises, shared common lands to use, shared facilities, cooperative neighbors to help build...
The down sides: 40 miles of dirt road through the UT desert to get there. After driving an hour from the nearest town. That's pretty rough on vehicles and perhaps dangerous in the winter. No internet. (though Starlink is fixing that). It'd dry, windy UT desert county.
This should be replicated in the Ozarks and Idaho and everywhere. How do we?
https://www.facebook.com/AcademyofSelfReliance/

I've been watching them from a distance for awhile now after they reached out to me a year or two ago. Offered some resources to be of assistance.

Worthwhile aim and it won't be the first nor likely the last that what appears to be inhabitable can be made habitable. That said I see the work load ahead of them, the timing of things, and cringe. But with labor and resources...anything is possible. The distance from large population centers could be their saving grace. In a recent trip down the Wasatch front I marveled at all the people. It has only been a decade since I lived in the middle of that...but after being away and in much much smaller communities...I wonder how it will all look in the not so distant future when chariots have issues, food supplies dwindle...you get my drift.

That and I've located my own area and endeavor to build. I look out the window at chickens hunting bugs in the rain...the initial start on a mini-bed acre garden...the acre next to it that needs to get launched in the next month or so...the honeyberries starting to leaf out and get started...the strawberry beds growing and the new one that needs to get finished. The fruit trees that need planted (of course must be Ellen White with all the work that entails). And here is my one year old my wife and I have been graced with in our old age and autoimmune defficiencies...with a blow out almost reaching the back of his head...I have my hands full without launching on a clean slate that needs everything from shelter to out buildings to soil testing & mediation to piping water in...and my hat goes off to the brave in spirit who embrace it. Better address the one year old now...

[JuneBug12000]

Riverbed Ranch in Juab County is doing this. I've visited there and they do have a very compelling story. The only problem I have with it is the location is not one I would pick. I just wish they had other such co-ops in other locations.
The upsides: lots of people all building a tiny town with little enterprises, shared common lands to use, shared facilities, cooperative neighbors to help build...
The down sides: 40 miles of dirt road through the UT desert to get there. After driving an hour from the nearest town. That's pretty rough on vehicles and perhaps dangerous in the winter. No internet. (though Starlink is fixing that). It'd dry, windy UT desert county.
This should be replicated in the Ozarks and Idaho and everywhere. How do we?
https://www.facebook.com/AcademyofSelfReliance/

I've been watching them from a distance for awhile now after they reached out to me a year or two ago. Offered some resources to be of assistance.

Worthwhile aim and it won't be the first nor likely the last that what appears to be inhabitable can be made habitable. That said I see the work load ahead of them, the timing of things, and cringe. But with labor and resources...anything is possible. The distance from large population centers could be their saving grace. In a recent trip down the Wasatch front I marveled at all the people. It has only been a decade since I lived in the middle of that...but after being away and in much much smaller communities...I wonder how it will all look in the not so distant future when chariots have issues, food supplies dwindle...you get my drift.

That and I've located my own area and endeavor to build. I look out the window at chickens hunting bugs in the rain...the initial start on a mini-bed acre garden...the acre next to it that needs to get launched in the next month or so...the honeyberries starting to leaf out and get started...the strawberry beds growing and the new one that needs to get finished. The fruit trees that need planted (of course must be Ellen White with all the work that entails). And here is my one year old my wife and I have been graced with in our old age and autoimmune defficiencies...with a blow out almost reaching the back of his head...I have my hands full without launching on a clean slate that needs everything from shelter to out buildings to soil testing & mediation to piping water in...and my hat goes off to the brave in spirit who embrace it. Better address the one year old now...

We are in the same boat. Left Utah and making progress in Idaho, getting older, with a one year old (and a whole lot of older kids.) We may have to leave someday, but I am ready for a "rest, " relatively speaking, to just work on our land and finish raising our kids. Preparing for what is coming, and trying to build a community of like minded people where we are.

[tmac]

Unfortunately, we're in kind of the opposite scenario. We strategically relocated to what we considered to be a pretty ideal area and community 20 years ago, that has now been taken over by worldly values to the point that we are now pretty uncomfortable with the community and neighbors we are surrounded by.

[FoundMyEden]

Unfortunately, we're in kind of the opposite scenario. We strategically relocated to what we considered to be a pretty ideal area and community 20 years ago, that has now been taken over by worldly values to the point that we are now pretty uncomfortable with the community and neighbors we are surrounded by.

So now you're strategically relocating again. It does get exhausting doesn't it.

[FoundMyEden]

not to bag on the church some more, but all they've been preaching - career-wise, anyway - is to get as much education as you can, which everyone interprets as "go to college and become a lawyer", so that's what the herd is doing.

Meanwhile, their kids think milk comes from a carton.

I don't think I could say it any better.

Even here on LDSFF, what are there, maybe a half dozen or so people, who share any contrary paradigm (to the mainstream) on this issue?

This is what brought me to this forum. I was looking for likeminded people who didn't fit the church narrative because I certainly didn't. I believe in my family and honoring them through stewardship of the land. I wasn't finding that anywhere, but I stumbled across a few on here.

[tmac]

I was listening to an interview of some so-called expert regarding some of this subject matter. He said that although the pandemic has created unprecedented demand for rural residential property all over the country, it's not because people suddenly want to adopt an Agrarian lifestyle and become producers. He said that for the most part they want to continue their same consumptive lifestyle, but in a less crowded environment. In the meantime, they are gobbling up productive farm ground hand over first for residential development and rural suburban sprawl.

[FoundMyEden]

I was listening to an interview of some so-called expert regarding some of this subject matter. He said that although the pandemic has created unprecedented demand for rural residential property all over the country, it's not because people suddenly want to adopt an Agrarian lifestyle and become producers. He said that for the most part they want to continue their same consumptive lifestyle, but in a less crowded environment. In the meantime, they are gobbling up productive farm ground hand over first for residential development and rural suburban sprawl.

Yes, this seems true. This has happened in three of the states I have lived in over the last 30 years. This round was started by the plandemic but before that people just had the desire to move out of the big city into a smaller town...although no one wanted to adopt a lifestyle of production, they just wanted a less crowded lot...close to big box stores and medical facilities. Farm ground getting chopped up and developed...

[tmac]

We're definitely having an interesting ongoing experience/adventure with this.

Lately, I've been likening the Savior's Parable of the Sower (Matthew 13) to our efforts. Like the Word of God in the Savior's parable, our efforts to share the word about our project are a lot like scattering seed on the ground, and watching to see what will happen with it. The people we have talked to inevitably represent the corresponding differing types of soil and have varying degrees of receptivity, reaction and response to the approach we're trying to take.

In our latest experience, today, we tried to renew our innocuous little ad on KSL.com only to have KSL almost immediately delete the ad claiming that it contained "offensive content" (the reference to "productive and reproductive orientation," I suppose). And as in the parable, just like that, a great big predatory bird (KSL) swooped down and consumed a substantial amount of seed that we were attempting to scatter.

Despite all the seed we've scattered and people we've talked to, etc., I will have to say that it looks like the amount of ground that is actually fertile and receptive to germinate seed and produce fruit is quite limited.

It's pretty interesting.

[JuneBug12000]

We're definitely having an interesting ongoing experience/adventure with this.

Lately, I've been likening the Savior's Parable of the Sower (Matthew 13) to our efforts. Like the Word of God in the Savior's parable, our efforts to share the word about our project are a lot like scattering seed on the ground, and watching to see what will happen with it. The people we have talked to inevitably represent the corresponding differing types of soil and have varying degrees of receptivity, reaction and response to the approach we're trying to take.

In our latest experience, today, we tried to renew our innocuous little ad on KSL.com only to have KSL almost immediately delete the ad claiming that it contained "offensive content" (the reference to "productive and reproductive orientation," I suppose). And as in the parable, just like that, a great big predatory bird (KSL) swooped down and consumed a substantial amount of seed that we were attempting to scatter.

Despite all the seed we've scattered and people we've talked to, etc., I will have to say that it looks like the amount of ground that is actually fertile and receptive to germinate seed and produce fruit is quite limited.

It's pretty interesting.

Part of the problem may be timing. I am meeting people now who left years ago, pre cov, when thy saw the writing on the wall. Lots who are keeping cows and growing food. Lots did what we did. We looked at states laws to find a good fit. Texas, Missouri, Idaho, and other states made many people's lists, but not one had Utah.

I guess Utah is were people go when they think it is an LDS Zion. People who have already left know better.

I do still hope you find good people to work with.

[Jason]

I was listening to an interview of some so-called expert regarding some of this subject matter. He said that although the pandemic has created unprecedented demand for rural residential property all over the country, it's not because people suddenly want to adopt an Agrarian lifestyle and become producers. He said that for the most part they want to continue their same consumptive lifestyle, but in a less crowded environment. In the meantime, they are gobbling up productive farm ground hand over first for residential development and rural suburban sprawl.

Seeing that firsthand…buying up acreage and putting gobs of money into decorative features rather than anything remotely productive. I guess waterfalls and real gas lamps have some kind of value…but the prophesied war between capital and labor is just getting started.

Costs are up, wages behind, cost of debt rapidly increasing…as people tap credit cards like never before. This will all implode here shortly (as designed).

We’ve been told that a man (labor output) will become extremely valuable…more precious than fine gold…even the golden wedge of Ophir.

Whether that’s due to a shortage…or what have you…

We’ve seen the historical documentation for the cycles of men that repeat over and over again. Jaredites wiped out to the last man. Nephites wiped out to the last man. Just a couple of the myriad examples…

At least G&A is getting reasonable and available again….

[mudflap]

I encourage like minded folks to get on this thread and contribute:

https://communities.win/c/ParallelSocie ... or-pdf-t/c

I've written a few short guides before, as I detailed in my post here.

It would be awesome to collect a series of guides like this and compile them into a shareable format, such as a PDF or collection of infographics.

One of the issues with today is people don't know where to find good, reliable information. A comprehensive and authoritative guide on how to live a decentralized lifestyle and build a parallel society would be incredibly useful. It could be easily distributed and commented on by people across the web, allowing them to create their own societies.

Any suggestions for this? What content would be most important to include? Here is a giant list of suggestions I saw, let me know which of these would be interesting or if there's any others I could add:

How to identify companies to boycott, as well as upstanding local and small businesses to support - https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ffz ... yoxf0/edit

How to choose a worthwhile career that is future-proofed against state overreach

How to how to find friends who are on the same wavelength as you (who are relatively normal people and not crazy or glowies)

How to prepare for disasters or a wide-scale societal collapse

How to be relatively self-sufficient in terms of food, water, housing, and electricity

How to be co-sufficient in a wider community with division of labor

How to be private online and keep your information secure - https://anonymousplanet.org/guide.html

How to be charismatic, persuasive, and a good speaker who can win other people to your point of view

How to create images and videos, perhaps a style guide for writing

A general guide to activism, both online and offline; how to bypass censorship and share your ideas

A ranking of the best states, countries, and other locations to consider moving to (or moving away from), based on culture, freedoms, and policies

A guide to minimalistic living, survival on a shoestring budget, and related aspects like van-living

A cookbook that teaches everything from very basic and cheap meals using few ingredients, to advanced recipes that promote health and muscle-building

A fitness guide on how to work out in various settings, ranging from having no weights at all (calisthenics) to having a fully-equipped gym

A guide on the basics of modern technology, with facts about hardware and software that everyone should know, possibly as a starting textbook for more advanced topics like programming

A list of the best open-source software and hardware that respects freedoms (as opposed to Google, Apple, Microsoft and others)

A guide on how to set up your own website and run your own server

A guide to cryptocurrency and investing in general, perhaps also about economics and finance

A moral code or system of etiquette for online platforms, to prevent them from going to $#!% and protect yourself from demoralization and information overload

A guide to modern relationships, on how to find a sane partner in the current age, marry and have kids

A catalog of religious denominations with considerations on which may be the best fit for you

[mudflap]

Here's another one - this looks very promising: https://parallelsociety.win/

[mudflap]

my local ward sent out (over facebook) a "google sheets" survey asking about our food storage readiness....

couple of problems here.....

1. I get nervous when google/facebook is involved in asking about what's going on inside my house.
2. My ward suddenly caring about food storage is suspicious. I mean, they've never cared before......And when I got all excited about a "new class" they were going to offer on "preparedness", it turned out to be only focused on "job preparedness" (who knew?). I feel like missionaries from another church showed up at my door asking me to go to their church. No "we care about you" or trying to build a friendship - just "hey, come to church with us". I don't know you, why should I go to your church?
3. church handbook warning about "extreme preparation and survivalism". Umm, hey church, have you seen gas prices and violent crime in chicago & atlanta? yeah, I know - faith, not fear. But faith would be ack-shu-all-eee preparing - a steady plan, maybe talking about it once a month, not this "...every 20 years or so we're going to gaslight you by acting like it's your fault when something bad happens."

going to ignore it for now.

[BigT]

1. I get nervous when google/facebook is involved in asking about what's going on inside my house.

Smart. I listened to a Kate Dalley podcast (with an LDS guest) where they asked the question about what the church would do if, during a nationwide food shortage, the government said, “we want your people to turn over their food storage so we can redistribute it.” I think they’d throw us under the bus.

[mudflap]

1. I get nervous when google/facebook is involved in asking about what's going on inside my house.

Smart. I listened to a Kate Dalley podcast (with an LDS guest) where they asked the question about what the church would do if, during a nationwide food shortage, the government said, “we want your people to turn over their food storage so we can redistribute it.” I think they’d throw us under the bus.

I think so, too. Look what they did with masks and the jab. 20 years of silence on food storage, cancelling homemaking meetings, E.Q. literally reduced to "the world's largest free moving service". They guy in charge of preparedness in our ward bought a huge half-mill+$ home, drives an $80k sports car, shows pics of his $10k rifle on fb - they're all over the place with debt. That's just not the image I get in my head when I think of "the church".

I'm just not getting pushed in that direction, I guess. When you think about "the humble followers of Christ", should they look like "suburban middle class America" or "the Amish"?

[FoundMyEden]

1. I get nervous when google/facebook is involved in asking about what's going on inside my house.

Smart. I listened to a Kate Dalley podcast (with an LDS guest) where they asked the question about what the church would do if, during a nationwide food shortage, the government said, “we want your people to turn over their food storage so we can redistribute it.” I think they’d throw us under the bus.

I think so, too. Look what they did with masks and the jab. 20 years of silence on food storage, cancelling homemaking meetings, E.Q. literally reduced to "the world's largest free moving service". They guy in charge of preparedness in our ward bought a huge half-mill+$ home, drives an $80k sports car, shows pics of his $10k rifle on fb - they're all over the place with debt. That's just not the image I get in my head when I think of "the church".

I'm just not getting pushed in that direction, I guess. When you think about "the humble followers of Christ", should they look like "suburban middle class America" or "the Amish"?

A half million dollar home, in the west, now buys you a run down manufactured home on an acre. Even the Amish live better around here now. They are the new middle class…even considered wealthy… although they don’t rub it in your face with a fancy new car…a sport horse maybe…lol. Kinda true story though.

[technomagus]

I think you are right about that, tmac. Having been looking at a lot of rural property, I have seen a LOT of lots with a HOA that have covenants that say "no outbuildings, not farming, no farm animals like chickens, pigs, etc". Forget that! Im not living in a place my neighbor can dictate if I can raise food. So HOAs unless the covenants are REALLY loose (like just for the purpose of sharing costs on road maintenance) are out. I sold a 20 acres lot I bought UT because I couldn't do the business I wanted to do. So unrestricted lots only.
Why own 5 acres and have everyone around you be restricted from doing anything but a McMansion? It's like living in a park. Stupid.

[harakim]

1. I get nervous when google/facebook is involved in asking about what's going on inside my house.

Smart. I listened to a Kate Dalley podcast (with an LDS guest) where they asked the question about what the church would do if, during a nationwide food shortage, the government said, “we want your people to turn over their food storage so we can redistribute it.” I think they’d throw us under the bus.

I actually quit on food storage and took up food procurement because of this. I had livestock and a garden and land and everything and went all in on wildnerness survival. The more I get into it, the more I think it's strange that prepper experts are always down on this strategy.

[BigT]

I actually quit on food storage and took up food procurement because of this. I had livestock and a garden and land and everything and went all in on wildnerness survival.

Lots of wilderness left. Not sure I could pull it off at 65, though; I hated all the knot-tying stuff in Scouts.

[mudflap]

1. I get nervous when google/facebook is involved in asking about what's going on inside my house.

Smart. I listened to a Kate Dalley podcast (with an LDS guest) where they asked the question about what the church would do if, during a nationwide food shortage, the government said, “we want your people to turn over their food storage so we can redistribute it.” I think they’d throw us under the bus.

I actually quit on food storage and took up food procurement because of this. I had livestock and a garden and land and everything and went all in on wildnerness survival. The more I get into it, the more I think it's strange that prepper experts are always down on this strategy.

I hear you. I think it's good to have enough, but you become a target - of the church and others - when you have too much. It's weird how far we've gotten from "actual self-reliance" as a people. I mean - those pioneers made their own wheels for their wagons - and they went a thousand miles, and you can still find them as decorations in people's front yards, 150 years later. I don't know anyone who can make their own wheels. I can barely get my garden going - it's going to be a few seasons before I (a) grow enough to enjoy it all summer (b) grow enough to store over the winter (c) figure out how to store it all.

Seems wise to have multiple plans - one for surviving in place and another for when you have to not stay in one place.

[Fred]

I started visiting https://ic.org in the early 90's. A friend of mine was a software developer and was paranoid that people were out to get him and he figured it was a good place to hide. He was a high dollar programmer and would take a 4 week job with IBM or something that paid enough to live a year on and then do it a few times a year and he always had money and only had to work every once in a while.

The thing about intentional communities that most do not get is land ownership. You will own nothing and be happy. You have to pay the association, though. If you don't own, you can be kicked out.

Some will let you own like a share or limited partnership. Course there still has to be a way for them to get rid of what they may later consider a bad apple.

Then you have the groups of poor people that find strength in numbers.

Outside of a true Zion, the best chance of success seems to come from people that purchase land in areas with like minded people and there are no bosses, or profiteering. The people that get along become friends and help each other.