LDS Freedom Forum

Original_Intent wrote:The basis of capitalism is that man is entitled to the fruits of his own labor. By the sweat of THY brow shalt thou eat bread. As I have stated in several other threads, what we currently live under is a very mutilated form of capitalism that I call corporatism. True free market laisezz faire captialism is the economic system that this country was founded upon. Matters of charity are left to individual agency, and also there would be no corporate welfare.

Free Enterprise capitalism is not evil, I do not believe. We are now experiencing the synthesis of the thesis and antithesis of Communism and Capitalism.

MercynGrace wrote:So do you see a Zion-ish society forming in the aftermath of a collapse?

The thought that kept rolling around in my brain while I listed to the GB show was that if we don't share common values now and our needs or material desires are what drive our economy, what will make us suddenly share values when our material needs are even greater?

Suppose, as GB predicts, inflation goes through the roof and we can barely afford to eat. Are people going to band together and form a society based on shared values when they are starving? Or will they be looking out for number one above all else - the height of self-interest and materialism?

davedan wrote:Capitalism is evil because it depend upon and drives inequality. Capitalism requires that certain individuals in the system are able to amass huge amounts of "capital" more than others. These individuals in possession of all the capital then become a class of unelected economic ruling corporate elite who make all the decisions about what they will invest in and what they won't invest in. Capitalism consolidates economic and political power in the hands of a few. Capitalism steels the power from the laborer (local mastercraftsmen and guilds) and gives it to the wealthy corpratocracy. Property Rights are what is important not capitalism.

http://lds.org/general-conference/2010/ ... d?lang=eng
This sin has many faces. It leads some to revel in their own perceived self-worth, accomplishments, talents, wealth, or position. They count these blessings as evidence of being “chosen,” “superior,” or “more righteous” than others. This is the sin of “Thank God I am more special than you.” At its core is the desire to be admired or envied. It is the sin of self-glorification. UAdd a Note

For others, pride turns to envy: they look bitterly at those who have better positions, more talents, or greater possessions than they do. They seek to hurt, diminish, and tear down others in a misguided and unworthy attempt at self-elevation. When those they envy stumble or suffer, they secretly cheer...As priesthood bearers, we must realize that all of God’s children wear the same jersey. Our team is the brotherhood of man. This mortal life is our playing field. Our goal is to learn to love God and to extend that same love toward our fellowman. We are here to live according to His law and establish the kingdom of God. We are here to build, uplift, treat fairly, and encourage all of Heavenly Father’s children....My dear brethren, there are so many people in need whom we could be thinking about instead of ourselves. And please don’t ever forget your own family, your own wife. There are so many ways we could be serving. We have no time to become absorbed in ourselves....

Original_Intent wrote:

davedan wrote:Capitalism is evil because it depend upon and drives inequality. Capitalism requires that certain individuals in the system are able to amass huge amounts of "capital" more than others. These individuals in possession of all the capital then become a class of unelected economic ruling corporate elite who make all the decisions about what they will invest in and what they won't invest in. Capitalism consolidates economic and political power in the hands of a few. Capitalism steels the power from the laborer (local mastercraftsmen and guilds) and gives it to the wealthy corpratocracy. Property Rights are what is important not capitalism.

Wow it almost sounds like the parable of the talents. Didn't one servant end up with ten talents and another end up with zero?

Equak opportunity is what is important. Equal outcomes has never been and never should be the goal. And yes the current system does NOT allow equal opportunity and that is what needs to be fixed. I agree with most of what you point out as problems in the current system, but if equal outcomes is the goal, that's as bad as the current system, just a different flavor of tyranny.

In an equitable system, the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT would create all money, and allow local banks to administer loans interest free to anyone who is credit worthy. Fees would cover the costs of overhead. But in such a system, there is no need for the consolidation of enormous capital, wealth, and power, because unlimited capital can be created at any time for a worthy enterprise. The money created to purchase a non-depreciating asset like land, property, homes, etc is backed by the asset that it is purchasing. The borrower builds equity from day one. A missed payment is deducted from the equity so the loan becomes and instant reverse mortgage when needed. Foreclosure only occurs when a person has lost all equity in the asset.

Nearly thirty five hundred years ago the nation of Israel gathered at the foot of Mount Sinai where they were organised into a kingdom. There they received laws that they were to enjoined to administer- laws covering every phase of human activity. The moral code contained in the Ten Commandments has been the standard of personal conduct among civilised people: likewise the laws of national administration contained in the Statutes and Judgements given to them by almighty God are just as perfect, and the day is near when nations must recognise these laws if they would establish righteousness and peace.

God requires modern Israel to awaken to her identity and restore these fundamental laws and thus demonstrate their perfection through their operation.

Men are accepting a false philosophy when they teach that they can make law. No one would dream of applying such doctrine to laws governing the physical universe.
Experience has taught man that he cannot legislate contrary to the God given moral code and hope to escape suffering, it is because man is lacking in such a real understanding of the facts that he thinks he can with immunity to himself, change economic and administrative policies regardless of the fundamental laws governing their operation. The very fact that man suffers is evident that he has legislated contrary to those principals. The laws given at Sinai are fixed and rigid as the laws governing the physical manifestations of nature, and the full benefit of the laws accrues to man when he complies with its requirements, while their violation brings confusion and trouble.

These laws deal with every aspect of man's relationship to God and fellow man they set forth the only perfect and equitable method of administrating national affairs: that give the only rules that will enable people to be prosperous and Happy, that lay down the only method that will establish justice, equity and judgement on the earth. Moses codified these laws, which code is set forth in the book of Deuteronomy. It cannot be too strongly urged upon all to read this book again and again to digest these laws. Only in these laws will the earth obtain the peace, prosperity, and happiness it seeks.

davedan wrote:pjbrownie-

I am not so sure that "gold as collateral" is necessary. The problem with requiring the bank from putting up collateral to the Federal Government is that there is a shortage of Gold. What we need to do is stop with making money artificially scarce. Money needs to be backed by something of value but it doesn't have to be gold. But we need to stop with setting up a system that creates artificial scarcity.

That's fine. But you have to collateral, be it gold, food, silver, or real estate. The point is that you have to have something of value. When you create fiat money out of thin air, you create value where no value has once existed and it allows for business cycles.

In this system, the asset being purchased which has non-depreciating value, is used as the collateral. The land, home, building, company being purchased is the collateral and the backing for the money being created.

Yes, but they always loan more than they have collateral to collect on (at least not less than 10%). That's why when people default on their mortgages, banks are in danger of bankruptcy.

The non-profit community "safety society" bank is generating money for the federal government by collecting loan origination fees and monthly service fees on the money being created. This could generate huge voluntary revenue for the Federal Government as the FED only collects prime on a fraction of the money creation at this point, and allows banks themselves to create most of the money can collect interest based on their money creation.

A bank would operate on FULL RESERVE LENDING. 100% of deposits would be kept at the bank for withdrawal at any time and would not be used to create additional loans. And money could be kept as gold, and not speculative stocks and derivatives which run the risk of disappearing with the next market crash.

Banks are shielded from much risk because of the intrinsic value of the asset being purchased. With a non-interest loan, the borrower begins to build equity from the beginning. However, if he misses a payment, the loan immediately becomes a "reverse mortgage" and the missed payment is deducted from the equity. Foreclosure only happens when the borrower loses all equity in the property. This is much better than the current system where the bank can foreclose and the borrower can lose all equity after 1 missed payment. Additionally, after collecting all the equity on the asset, the bank would foreclose on the property which it could then sell to cover the original loan made by the Federal Government.

In an equitable system gold would back the rest of the money supply. But remember that the money supply can be broken up into pieces (M0, M1, m2, m3, etc). Gold can be used to back other money creation, but for this pool of no-interest money, it already has its own backing and its its own collateral.

For this part of the money supply, it does not need gold backing. The asset itself is the backing and the collateral for the loan.

IN THIS SYSTEM HAVING SAVINGS AND CAPITAL DOES NOT PUT YOU IN A COMPETITIVE ADVANTAGE VERSES THE BANK TO USE THAT CAPITAL TO ENSLAVE OTHERS. HAVING SAVINGS MEANS A PERSON CAN CAN USE THAT CAPITAL FOR THEMSELVES AND NOT HAVE TO PAY THE LOAN FEES. HOWEVER, SINCE LOANS ARE SO EQUITABLE AND ACCESSIBLE, OTHER INDIVIDUAL ARE NOT AT THE MERCY OF CAPITAL HOLDERS FOR LOANS.

This also prevents people from borrowing money from the bank to buy stock. Safety Societies would never lend money for a stock or derivative . Safety Societies only lend for assets with intrinsic, enduring, non-depreciating value.

davedan wrote:Capitalism is evil because it depend upon and drives inequality. Capitalism requires that certain individuals in the system are able to amass huge amounts of "capital" more than others. These individuals in possession of all the capital then become a class of unelected economic ruling corporate elite who make all the decisions about what they will invest in and what they won't invest in. Capitalism consolidates economic and political power in the hands of a few. Capitalism steels the power from the laborer (local mastercraftsmen and guilds) and gives it to the wealthy corpratocracy. Property Rights are what is important not capitalism.