LDS Freedom Forum

We live in a world of symbols. We know nothing, except by symbols. We make a few marks on a sheet of paper, and we say that they form a word, which stands for love, or hate, or charity, or God or eternity. The marks may not be very beautiful to the eye. No one finds fault with the symbols on the pages of a book because they are not as mighty in their own beauty as the things which they represent. We do not quarrel with the symbol G-O-D because it is not very beautiful, yet represents the majesty of God. We are glad to have symbols, if only the meaning of the symbols is brought home to us. I speak to you tonight; you have not quarreled very much with my manner of delivery, or my choice of words; in following the meaning of the thoughts I have tried to bring home to you, you have forgotten words and manner. There are men who object to Santa Claus, because he does not exist! Such men need spectacles to see that Santa Claus is a symbol; a symbol of the love and joy of Christmas and the Christmas spirit. In the land of my birth there was no Santa Claus, but a little goat was shoved into the room, carrying with it a basket of Christmas toys and gifts.
We live in a world of symbols. No man or woman can come out of the temple endowed as he should be, unless he has seen, beyond the symbol, the mighty realities for which the symbols stand.” (John A. Widtsoe, "Temple Worship," Utah Genealogical and Historical Magazine, April 1921, p. 62)

Each year as Christmas comes around one problem that faces nearly everyone in the Christian world—parents especially—is the question of Santa Claus: “Should we continue to make Santa Claus a part of our Christmas celebration?” …

I have noticed that those who say they don’t want Santa in Christmas because he is a lie—a fictional character—seem to overlook another deception of a sort. That is, they overlook the fact that the Lord was not born on December 25; he was born on April 6, in the springtime “beauty of the lilies.” So maybe we shouldn’t be celebrating anything on December 25.

Frankly, it’s hard not to be cynical about the whole subject of Christmas these days. Nevertheless, I have seen a good balance at Christmastime where the worship of the Savior and the spirit of giving embodied in Santa Claus have worked very well together. Maybe it’s the balance that’s really important.
("What Shall We Do with Santa Claus?: A Roundtable", Ensign, Dec. 1976, 39)

Santa Claus was created by merging Woden, one of the gods of the Northland with a Roman Catholic Bishop, who was "canonized" a saint. Woden was chief among the Northland gods. He came from the near east (Mesopotamia--Babylon) and made his way northward into Scandinavia, where his name was pronounced, Odin. When the Germanics adopted him they acquired some new and more exalted ideas of what a god could or should be. For gradually Odin grew into a very wise god who knew everything that was going on in the world.
http://www.geocities.com/dabar_olam/Art ... istmas.htm

Who is Father Christmas?

When the celebrations of Christmas are fast approaching a simple ho-ho-ho or mention of reindeer and sleighs brings one name to mind for nearly everyone in the world. Father Christmas. He stands in a long tradition of gift bringers that appear around the turn of the year. History records many long and ancient traditions. Woden, or Odin, scattered gifts down on the children of the frozen north while they slept.
http://www.happychristmas.org.uk/santa/ ... istmas.htm

With such a popularity, his legends inevitably became intertwined with others. In Germanic countries, it sometimes became hard to tell where the legend of Nicholas began and that of Woden (or Odin) ended. Somewhere along the line, probably tied to the gold-giving story, people began giving presents in his name on his feast day. When the Reformation came along, his following disappeared in all the Protestant countries except Holland, where his legend continued as Sinterklass. Martin Luther, for example, replaced this bearer of gifts with the Christ Child, or, in German, Christkindl. Over the years, that became repronounced Kriss Kringle, and ironically is now considered another name for Santa Claus. http://www.christianitytoday.com/histor ... /nick.html

The pattern continued as the Roman church encountered new potential "converts" on the frontiers of the empire such as the teutonic tribes in the area of Germany. Darrell Conder writes, "Some few people will know that the old Germanic god Woden is honored in the day of the week called Wednesday, a corrupted form of WODENSDAY. But very few people realize that history clearly shows that Woden was renamed St. Nick or Santa Claus, and is the real god of modern Christmas. In 4000 Years of Christmas we read, ‘Of most interest to us, however is the fact that Woden has become Santa Claus or, as he is better called, St. Nicholas’… The beliefs and customs of Woden’s followers would not be forgotten when they entered the new ‘Christian’ religion. They were not forgotten and NEITHER WAS WODEN! The god Woden was said to have had a sacred tree, which when approached at yule tide (December 25th), would bestow a special GIFT. Woden, presiding over the revelries, was often pictured as sitting on a throne… with a wreath of holly around his head, just like the Santa Claus of the recent past. The Germanic peoples had found in the Roman Saturnalia, now called Christmas, and the Catholic ‘savior,’ enough of their beliefs to make their entrance into that church quite easy. It was then that Woden entered the Roman Saturnalia giving it his customs and worships, and making it uniquely his own”(Mystery Babylon The Great, Darrell W. Conder, pg. 99). http://www.studiesintheword.org/christmas_christian.htm

Stories of Saint Nicholas' generosity grew with his impending popularity. Some 600 years later, in the year 1003 A.D., Saint Nicholas was crowned the patron saint of Russia by Emperor Vladimir while he (the emperor) was on a visit to Constantinople. The emperor had traveled there to be baptized and in the process had brought back anecdotes and tall tales of this miraculous patron saint. The great city honored Constantine, who came to power at the beginning of the 4th Century, had conquered Italy by 312 A.D., and ultimately allowed religious tolerance for Christians while promoting and protecting the new religion simultaneously. By 313 A.D., Constantine had issued the Edict of Milán, which recognized Christianity as the official religion of the land. Pagan temples henceforth were converted into churches throughout Europe. These ensuing conversions of the "heathens" to the faith of the Cross ended once and for all society's prior illicit "outlaw" status attributed to the Christians. Primitive pagan Germanic farmers who had believed only in their god of blessing and fertility now found their god of storms Woden (who flew through the winter night skies on a horse while wearing a brimmed hat) gradually being superceded by Saint Nicholas, thus extinguishing in time the former pagan godhead of these Teutonic peoples. But we still honor their god Woden to this very day in our English language on every "Woden's Day" or Wednesday. Saint Nicholas also played a significant rôle in the expansion of Christianity due to the Germanic tribes' subsequent embracing of Greco-Roman culture and civilization, which was creeping gradually northward from Southern Europe and into the more northern latitudes. http://linguatics.com/origins_of_christmas.htm

This “great King,” from “Lower Salem,” “Asia-city,” who brought “Law” to Europe, was named “Woden” (in English), as in the word, “Wednesday.” He was the God of the Germanic peoples, before they came into contact with “Catholicism.” He was their God. In fact, the names, “God” and “Lord,” were, originally, names that were used for him.
The Anglo-Saxons called him “Woden” and said his name “Wen” when they said it quickly: as the pronunciation “Wensday” for the word “Wednesday.”

Odin’s Work

When Odin of Asaland came to the north, and the Diar with him, they introduced and taught to others the arts which the people long afterwards have practiced. Odin was the cleverest of all, and from him all the others learned their arts and accomplishments; and he knew them first, and knew many more than other people. But now, to tell why he is held in such high respect, we must mention various causes that contributed to it. When sitting among his friends his countenance was so beautiful and dignified, that the spirits of all were exhilarated by it ... Another cause was, that he conversed so cleverly and smoothly, that all who heard believed him.

Odin could ... be off in a twinkling to distant lands upon his own or other people’s business. With words alone he could quench fire, still the ocean in tempest, and turn the wind to any quarter he pleased. Sometimes even he called the dead out of the earth ... He taught all (his) arts in Runes ... he could know beforehand the predestined fate of men. (He could give people health.) From these arts he became very celebrated. He taught the most of his arts to his priests of the sacrifices, and they came nearest to himself in all wisdom ... (The people called Odin their God and believed in him) and the twelve chiefs from Asaland ... long after.

He organized all of Europe, from the Rhine to the Volga and from the Danube north to the Arctic Ocean, into a great Reich (this was pronounced “rich” or “ric” in Old English, as in the word “bishop-ric,” which means a “bishop’s kingdom”). Since this Reich was ruled by the Twelve to whom he had given the “keys” to rule it, it was called the, “key-reich,” “kirche” in German, “kerk,” in Dutch, “kyrka,” in Swedish, “kirk,” in Scottish and, originally, “ci-ric,” then “church,” in English.

Odin named most of the days of the Israelite week of the Germans after
the members of his family. “Saturday,” “Zatterdag” in Dutch, and “Lordag” in Swedish, meant “Laws day.” Odin said that he was the Son of God, that he was both born and risen from the dead on the first day of the week. So he named it, “Son-day.” (In Scandinavia the name of the first day of the week is as in “Somebody’s SON” day, not “SUN up in the sky” day.)

In Scandinavia Odin taught the people to carve T-shaped crosses and to show him as a “snake” draped on those crosses. These “snakes,” of course, were just two long, parallel lines chiseled into the stone. Within these two lines people would write an epitaph in the Runic alphabet which Odin taught to them. Because this form of writing was so all-important to them, the Norwegian people developed the habit of expressing the thought, “to speak Norwegian,” as, “to ‘snake’ Norwegian.” (That etymology also explains Danish usage.) We see the same result in Swedish, if we remember that all that a snake is, is a big, long “tail,” when the Swedish express, “to speak Swedish” as, “to ‘tail’ Swedish. (This might also be helpful in the research of the etymology of the English word, “tell.”)
What is more significant, though, was the REASON why Odin wanted to be shown as a serpent coiled around a cross. It was because if you would look at Him, wrapped around “The Tree of Life,” in that manner, then you would have “the Fruit of the Tree of Life,” that is, you would live forever. The “serpent motif” by which the Vikings always represented Odin, for this reason, as on the bow of their ships or on their great carvings on the sides of mountains, is the exact same as the serpent design for Quetzalcoatl used by the Indians of Mexico.

Diocletian asked about the “great King” of the “Jews,” who was the God of the Visigoths. Then he inquired of his Roman pontiffs if there was some way that that “great King” and “Son of God” could just sort of be “sucked up” into Aristotle’s idea of an amorphous blob. They had an idea. Diocletian’s successor, Constantine, would put that idea into operation.

We should now talk about the name that that King used.

A principal “minister” to Moses, as recounted in the Old Testament, was the patriarchal leader of the tribe of Ephraim. He was a young man named, “Osh-ea.” Moses called him “Jehovah sets you FREE,” “Je-hosh-u-a,” in Hebrew. That man was Moses’ successor who led the Children of Israel into their land. In English he is called by a variation of that name, “Jehoshua,” that is, “Joshua.” The ancient Greeks, although they knew of that folk hero and leader of Israel, couldn’t pronounce anything near to that Hebrew name. The closest they could come to “Jehoshua” was “Yeh-zoos.”

In the first chapter of Matthew, Joseph is told to call Mary’s son by that name of the ancient leader of Israel (for this son “shall save his people” from far more than what Joshua of old was able to “set his people free” from). After Diocletian, the Roman Empire always used the Greek way of saying, “Jehoshua,” as the name for Mary’s son.
Till this day in the north of Europe the title of Mary’s son is “the man who (quickly) sets you FREE,” “Frelser” in the Scandinavian languages, “Vapahtaja” in Finnish. (The Germans also have their own German word as their title for him, “Heiland,” rather than the word borrowed from the French, “Savior,” used by the English-speaking people.)
Whatever the Lord was called by the Aramaic-speaking people of Judea, in his day, some variation of Jehoshua or Oshea, the Scandinavian expression “Oath” is very close to the “Osh” part of Oshea, and brings up an interesting name identification. Remember that the Scandinavians said this name “Oathen,” the Anglo-Saxons “Woden,” and probably by far the greatest number of His people, living in Germany, “VOTAN.”

The Everlasting “Gospel”

This story of the visit of Votan bringing with him the Twelve Asians, of which we have been speaking, had a very specific name among the Germanic Peoples. The German word for a “story” was a “spiel” or “spell.” This story of “Votan” was always called, “The Everlasting God’s-story” or “The Everlasting God’s-spell” ― “The Everlasting Gospel.” In Iceland it is still “the Guth-spjal,” “the God-speaking.”

Catholicism could not stand to have this name for Votan’s, or Odin’s, story remaining around in Europe, so the expression, “Gospel,” is totally extirpated from the continent of Europe. It has only been able to hold onto its existence as the name for the, “Story of the Son of God,” in the British Isles and on the Scandinavian Isles, Iceland.
Yuletide

Scrupulously trying to follow the Bible, the Puritan founders of the USA felt, as they had been taught by their Catholic mentors for centuries, that their ancestral customs were pagan and against Jesus Christ. Accordingly, the custom of the English Yuletide was not brought from Old England to New England directly. However, the spontaneous joy of the season could not be evaded, and the expressions used by the Dutch of New York came to be used by the English-speaking people of North America. The Dutch, because of their central position in trade between the Germanic and Mediterranean worlds, for some reason had been manipulated to use the name of the Byzantine, Nicholas of Myra, as the central figure in the gift-visit at the center of the ancient Germanic Yuletide celebration. That Dutch generated expression, “Santa Claus,” thus introduced itself into Anglo North America. The English in Old England, of course, neither had the reason nor motive to indulge in this additional bit of Byzantine tricking. To this day that person at the center of their ancestral Germanic Holiday is called by the rather non-identifying name of, “Father Christmas,” by the English-speaking people not living in North America. This leaves the matter open as to “who” this “Father” in this ancient, ancestral holiday of these Germanic peoples was. Well, it was their God, Woden, who used to drive around at Yuletide in Sweden, in a sleigh drawn by reindeer, to congratulate children on their faithfulness to the Law and bring them beautiful gifts, in those ancient times when the Ancestors of the English-speaking people still lived in Sweden or there about.

The basic concept of the Yuletide is seen in the German word for it: “Weihnacht.” “Weihnacht” means “‘set-apart’ night,” the idea being that the “longest” night in a year is the beginning of the “solar new year,” “set-apart” (“Weih-” in German) by Votan’s particular use of it in His Plan for how His people operated. “What does the ‘solar new year’ have to do with Jesus Christ?” That is answered through a rephrasing of Dr. Bradford’s question, “What Would the Savior Do With Santa Claus?” to be “What is the relation of Jesus Christ to Votan?”
Catholicism, of course, wanted to steer people far away from considering that idea, so it came up with the ridiculous lie that the Lord was born at Mid-winter.
Votan apparently wanted to use the first twelve days of the solar new year to thank everyone for their faithfulness to the Law during the past year and for all of the work that the people, young and old, had done for the Purpose or Sake of the Law.
“Why twelve?”
Everything which Votan did was by “twelves.” The Germanic “year” had “twelve” months (as can be seen from the Finnish names for those twelve Germanic months, which are still employed in Finland, or the German folk names, still used in Switzerland). The Romans only had ten months before their encounter with the Germanic calendar.
Odin divided the day into two “twelve” hour periods. These are divided and subdivided by a multiple of twelve.
In the technology which Odin taught to the Craftsmen in their Gilds, He taught that He was the measurement of everything that is. They should use as their standard His “foot.” His foot, as presumably most people’s, is divisible by “twelve” of His “thumb-widths,” the concept of the “inch” (In Spanish the word, “inch,” is still said, in Spanish, “a thumb’s width,”)
“What of the Christmas tree?”
Odin won the Salvation of his People hanging on a “tree.” (In Robin Hood’s day the people of the Danelaw of England were still using the expression “by him who hung on the tree,” used so frequently in the “Ballad of Robin Hood,” rather than thinking of a “cross.”) The glorious lights on the tree refer to the glorious gifts he won for his people in his struggle for them on the tree. Odin’s followers felt that it was an “evergreen” tree, perhaps, in part, because the tree in the mild Mediterranean climate used to make the cross didn’t shed its leaves like North European trees do. That they felt that tree was the Holly tree is explicit. The name, “Holly” means, “Holy” in Old English. The “Holly wreath” with its spines and red berries signified the crown of thorns and drops of the Lord’s blood. (For this, refer to “the Ghost of Christmas Present,” in Dickens’ “A Christmas Carol,” where the jolly giant, “Father Christmas,” wears a holly wreath around his head like the Savior wore his “Crown of Thorns.” The custom of the burning of the “Yule log” could be related to these other concepts of the “tree.” Lastly, the etymology of the ancient Scandinavian word “Yule” seems to be a derivative of, “Jute,” as the Danish word for their, “Jut-land,” (from the name, “Jute”) is pronounced, “Yule-land.”http://s98822910.onlinehome.us/thousand ... ur_law.pdf

3 Nephi 16:
1 And verily, verily, I say unto you that I have other sheep, which are not of this land, neither of the land of Jerusalem, neither in any parts of that land round about whither I have been to minister.
2 For they of whom I speak are they who have not as yet heard my voice; neither have I at any time manifested myself unto them.
3 But I have received a commandment of the Father that I shall go unto them, and that they shall hear my voice, and shall be numbered among my sheep, that there may be one fold and one shepherd; therefore I go to show myself unto them.

Remember your time-honor'd laws,
Kind master of the merry glee:
Prepare your gifts, good Santa Claus,
And hang them on the Christmas tree.

And where no Christmas trees are found,
With liberal hand your gifts distill;
The bags and stockings hanging round,
Great Santa Claus, be sure to fill.

Untie your purse--enlarge your heart--
O, do not pass one single door;
And in your gen'rous walk impart
Your comforts to the sick and poor.

When eyes are watching for the morn,
In humble hut and cottage too;
How disappointed and forlorn,
If missed, dear Santa Claus, by you.

Go all the rounds of baby-hood,
And bless and cheer the hearts of all
The "little folks," and please be good
To those who're not so very small.

~Eliza R. Snow, Dec 1868

7cylon7 wrote:Santa Claus will not exist in the millennium.... all these pagan holidays will not exist. We may still celebrate the birth of Jesus Christ but all the pagan traditions will have to be done away with. The lord has given us the feast to celebrate. And the feast of the Bride groom I can image being one of the new holidays we will be celebrating. The passover and Easter will be celebrated more fully and openly. I can see a new type of independence day coming once the new Jerusalem is build. Also we are told that every year all nations will have to go to the OLD new Jerusalem and pay respects to the LORD or face famine in their own lands.

If we are to worship the LORD then we have to stop worshiping idols. Santa does nothing but take the focus of Christmas away from Jesus and one to an idol. Another problem with Santa is that many parents are teaching children to believe in something that is a LIE! Santa is a lie make no mistake about it. Those of you who perpetuate the idea of a Santa one night in then the very next night you tell them about another mythical creature called Jesus. This confuses children. Many children have lost their faith in Jesus over the Santa Clause effect. Children come to realize that my parents who I thought was truthful and honest really lied to me. If they lied about Santa then they have lied to be about Jesus as well. Don't laugh at this. I have heard many members confess a struggle over this very topic. It is a tool of the adversary to do all he can to move the focus from God to man. He has done a very good job.

Of course we all know that Christmas was really a pagan holiday for the winter solstices. Which is on the 21st of DEC. The Sun started to move the other way and was detectable by the 25th day of the month. This day is very important in the Egyptian mythology about the rebirth of the sun and the rebirth of I believe it was RA from Isis. This story is the Christ story but bent by the adversary. All truth originate from GOD. The Adversary takes the truth and changes just a bit and that is all he needs. Out goes Christ and in come anything else. I could elaborate but won't at this time.

Of course I support the Christmas spirit. WE all know that spirit is of Christ when celebrated properly. Who christmas really suck without SANTA? no not at all. Instead of SANTA giving gifts it is us the wise men giving gifts to the savior. We should give gift to each other, loved ones and family and friends. We should GIVE something away. Santa is all about WHAT AM I GETTING from SANTA. WHAT am I I I I getting. What is SANTA going to bring you this year???? I hate those words to children. Let's ask what are you going to do for you mother this Christmas? I know I did not come up with this idea. I think of the Buddhist monk, would he compromise his religion to include a santa clause? A Buddhist monk would not even entertain the idea. Would he teach his children about a santa clause, heck no. Lets be as devoted to our religion as he is to his. We don't need SANTA. no we don't. In fact, I would say more love, more joy would be had by all if SANTA was wiped from all our holiday celebrations.

OH SANTA is harmless.... oh really... so is just a little sin... it is harmless... eat, brink, be merry for tomorrow we die. hmmm

1. no santa at any church christmas celebrations... take all the santa crap out... focus on the SAVIOR... ahhhh hallelujah
2. I love the manger scene when done by our children and youth.
3. we can exchange gifts but lets not see who can out do each other. Simple thoughtful gifts are the best.
4. Put the lights up. put your tree up. put your manger scene up. leave the santa and raindeer go to the trash heep. (plain deers are fine in my book)
5. have family meeting, eat, share love... have a christmas eve telling of the baby jesus story.
6. The charlie brown Christmas is the best and it quotes scripture. too bad the Thanksgiving one sucks it should of been about freedom of religion which is what that is all about too. if you don't believe me read the proclamation that started it in America. Yes i got that from RUSH I admit.

After 100 year into the millennium Santa will not even be known by the church that is.

Well I could go on but I think I made my point. Please don't misunderstand I enjoy the Christmas season but Santa should not be in any Christian home or church celebration. I laugh when I see Santa come out at a LDS Christmas party. What a dumb thing to do to our children. I forgive those who did it in the past but let us not support these pagan traditions going forward. Another great quote for Joseph Smith was that we are so engrossed by our old traditions that we will not stand new doctrine from the LORD because we are not ready for it. We have to understand that GOD's understanding is greater than ours... WE have to remove the world's traditions and understandings and try to understand and accept GOD's truths. God's Truths are the only way we can truly be happy and enjoy a full measure of joy.

MERRY Christmas and HAPPY NEW YEAR

Rob wrote:Telling a child a lie like believing in Santa is not being Christ-like. You don't tell your kids everything, I get that, but to explicitly state that Santa Claus exists defies all reason. Go ahead and justify it to yourself, that's your business, but when your kid tells my kid about the stuff Santa gave them for Christmas, get ready for my kid to tell them what's what. There's enough lies floating around in this world and I'm not about to have my kids thinking I'm going to fill their heads with nonsense. It boggles the mind why some who claim to love truth can't seem to be honest with their children. And don't hit me with the "oh, but it's all in good fun" defense. If I lie to my kid and they stop trusting me, it's my fault, and that ain't fun.

Rob wrote:Telling a child a lie like believing in Santa is not being Christ-like. You don't tell your kids everything, I get that, but to explicitly state that Santa Claus exists defies all reason. Go ahead and justify it to yourself, that's your business, but when your kid tells my kid about the stuff Santa gave them for Christmas, get ready for my kid to tell them what's what. There's enough lies floating around in this world and I'm not about to have my kids thinking I'm going to fill their heads with nonsense. It boggles the mind why some who claim to love truth can't seem to be honest with their children. And don't hit me with the "oh, but it's all in good fun" defense. If I lie to my kid and they stop trusting me, it's my fault, and that ain't fun.

7cylon7 wrote:Santa Claus will not exist in the millennium.... all these pagan holidays will not exist. We may still celebrate the birth of Jesus Christ but all the pagan traditions will have to be done away with. The lord has given us the feast to celebrate. And the feast of the Bride groom I can image being one of the new holidays we will be celebrating. The passover and Easter will be celebrated more fully and openly. I can see a new type of independence day coming once the new Jerusalem is build. Also we are told that every year all nations will have to go to the OLD new Jerusalem and pay respects to the LORD or face famine in their own lands.

If we are to worship the LORD then we have to stop worshiping idols. Santa does nothing but take the focus of Christmas away from Jesus and one to an idol. Another problem with Santa is that many parents are teaching children to believe in something that is a LIE! Santa is a lie make no mistake about it. Those of you who perpetuate the idea of a Santa one night in then the very next night you tell them about another mythical creature called Jesus. This confuses children. Many children have lost their faith in Jesus over the Santa Clause effect. Children come to realize that my parents who I thought was truthful and honest really lied to me. If they lied about Santa then they have lied to be about Jesus as well. Don't laugh at this. I have heard many members confess a struggle over this very topic. It is a tool of the adversary to do all he can to move the focus from God to man. He has done a very good job.

Of course we all know that Christmas was really a pagan holiday for the winter solstices. Which is on the 21st of DEC. The Sun started to move the other way and was detectable by the 25th day of the month. This day is very important in the Egyptian mythology about the rebirth of the sun and the rebirth of I believe it was RA from Isis. This story is the Christ story but bent by the adversary. All truth originate from GOD. The Adversary takes the truth and changes just a bit and that is all he needs. Out goes Christ and in come anything else. I could elaborate but won't at this time.

Of course I support the Christmas spirit. WE all know that spirit is of Christ when celebrated properly. Who christmas really suck without SANTA? no not at all. Instead of SANTA giving gifts it is us the wise men giving gifts to the savior. We should give gift to each other, loved ones and family and friends. We should GIVE something away. Santa is all about WHAT AM I GETTING from SANTA. WHAT am I I I I getting. What is SANTA going to bring you this year???? I hate those words to children. Let's ask what are you going to do for you mother this Christmas? I know I did not come up with this idea. I think of the Buddhist monk, would he compromise his religion to include a santa clause? A Buddhist monk would not even entertain the idea. Would he teach his children about a santa clause, heck no. Lets be as devoted to our religion as he is to his. We don't need SANTA. no we don't. In fact, I would say more love, more joy would be had by all if SANTA was wiped from all our holiday celebrations.

OH SANTA is harmless.... oh really... so is just a little sin... it is harmless... eat, brink, be merry for tomorrow we die. hmmm

1. no santa at any church christmas celebrations... take all the santa crap out... focus on the SAVIOR... ahhhh hallelujah
2. I love the manger scene when done by our children and youth.
3. we can exchange gifts but lets not see who can out do each other. Simple thoughtful gifts are the best.
4. Put the lights up. put your tree up. put your manger scene up. leave the santa and raindeer go to the trash heep. (plain deers are fine in my book)
5. have family meeting, eat, share love... have a christmas eve telling of the baby jesus story.
6. The charlie brown Christmas is the best and it quotes scripture. too bad the Thanksgiving one sucks it should of been about freedom of religion which is what that is all about too. if you don't believe me read the proclamation that started it in America. Yes i got that from RUSH I admit.

After 100 year into the millennium Santa will not even be known by the church that is.

Well I could go on but I think I made my point. Please don't misunderstand I enjoy the Christmas season but Santa should not be in any Christian home or church celebration. I laugh when I see Santa come out at a LDS Christmas party. What a dumb thing to do to our children. I forgive those who did it in the past but let us not support these pagan traditions going forward. Another great quote for Joseph Smith was that we are so engrossed by our old traditions that we will not stand new doctrine from the LORD because we are not ready for it. We have to understand that GOD's understanding is greater than ours... WE have to remove the world's traditions and understandings and try to understand and accept GOD's truths. God's Truths are the only way we can truly be happy and enjoy a full measure of joy.

MERRY Christmas and HAPPY NEW YEAR

Rob wrote:Telling a child a lie like believing in Santa is not being Christ-like. You don't tell your kids everything, I get that, but to explicitly state that Santa Claus exists defies all reason. Go ahead and justify it to yourself, that's your business, but when your kid tells my kid about the stuff Santa gave them for Christmas, get ready for my kid to tell them what's what. There's enough lies floating around in this world and I'm not about to have my kids thinking I'm going to fill their heads with nonsense. It boggles the mind why some who claim to love truth can't seem to be honest with their children. And don't hit me with the "oh, but it's all in good fun" defense. If I lie to my kid and they stop trusting me, it's my fault, and that ain't fun.

Greek Orthodox history tells of Nicholas being born to a wealthy, elderly couple in what is now Turkey in the year 280 AD. When his parents died, he generously gave to the poor. Upon hearing a merchant had gone bankrupt and that creditors were planning on taking the merchant's daughters, Nicholas threw some money in the window at night to provide a dowry for the daughters to marry, thus saving them from a life of forced prostitution. When the father discovered who gave the money, Nicholas made him promise not to tell as he wanted the glory to go to God, thus inspiring the tradition of secret gift-giving on the anniversary of Nicholas' death, which was DECEMBER 6, 343 AD.

Nicholas became the Bishop of Myra, was imprisoned during Emperor Diocletian's persecution of Christians, and was freed by Emperor Constantine. When the Arian Heresy began, splitting the Church and the Roman Empire, Constantine requested that all bishops attend the Council of Nicaea, where they wrote the Nicene Creed. Tradition has it Nicholas was so upset at Arius for starting the heresy that he slapped him.

Nicholas preached against a sex-fertility cult centered at the enormous Temple of Diana in Ephesus, one of the Seven Wonders of the Ancient World, resulting in her local shrine in Myra being torn down. In the year 1087 AD, Muslim Seljuk Turks invaded. They killed Christians, turned churches into mosques and desecrated graves. Christians shipped the bones of Nicholas to Italy for protection, thus introducing the gift-giving traditions of Saint Nicholas to Western Europe and eventually America.

Many children have lost their faith in Jesus over the Santa Clause effect. Children come to realize that my parents who I thought was truthful and honest really lied to me. If they lied about Santa then they have lied to be about Jesus as well. Don't laugh at this. I have heard many members confess a struggle over this very topic. It is a tool of the adversary to do all he can to move the focus from God to man. He has done a very good job.

Darren wrote: Santa Claus is a door opener to having faith and searching for truth embedded in our culture.

Oathin took Set-apart Night, then the first 12 days of the Solar New Year, that is the Yuletide.

The point is, it was from the year of his birth, not the day of his birth.
And so that is the ancient Nordic, but then the catholics get a hold of it, and they say, "Oh, He was born at Yuletide."

And then they have this Sinter Claus, this funny looking old man, but it was Oathin who went around behind the reindeer, up in Scandinavia in a sleigh, and he took presents to the children during the Yuletide.

Its (the annual celebration set up by Oathin counted from) the year of his birth, not the day.
He went up to Scandinavia around 43 A.D.
Its the beginning of the Solar New Year, not the birth of the Lord.

So that tradition is in the English culture where they say he is Father Christmas.

Nobody in England calls him Santa Claus, they call him Father Christmas.

There is an old movie about Scrooge that came out in the 30s or 40s. He (Scrooge) goes around the corner and there is this wonderfully handsome giant sitting on a big stack of geese. That is what the English have for their Christmas dinner, geese.
He (Scrooge) goes in there and he talks with Father Christmas, and He is wonderfully handsome, He is about 7 feet tall, and He has got this robe that He wears, and on His head he has a holly wreath. And of course holly means holy.
And children for centuries have had this song,

The holly and the ivy, (When they are both full grown, The holly bears the crown, The holly bears a berry, As red as any blood).

All of the insanity, of the Kybernion (catholic) corrupting of everything.

Joseph Smith was apparently born right at mid-winter moment in 1805.
In German they have always called it Weihnachten, su weihen, mean to set apart, Weihnachten means the Set-apart Night, which is the longest night of the year.

If someone were to try to find a model for what Christ looks like, would he look more like the Christ in the Temple movie?
The point is, is that He has blond hair and it is curly.
This is a kind of like what they have in the Temple movie.

The issue is, the filthy Catholic Church, they were coerced into showing the Lord looking like an Ashkenazi Tartar, and Eastern European's don't have a drop of the blood of the House of Judah in them. But it is to get people to think that the Lord looked like a Tartar.
That is an interesting thing in the Temple movie, but the point is that the Lord is most handsome.

So, the decedents of the tribes that Christ came from would have been more like the Scandinavians?
They looked just like the Nordics.

All over Northern Europe the people look the same.

The Russians are all ten tribes, but the tribe of Ephraim went to the Scandinavian Peninsula, and from there they became many nations. They became the Germans, the Dutch, the English, the Swedish, Danes, Norwegians, the Icelanders; they became a multitude of nations. And of course they went south throughout Europe as well.
And there were the Jutes that started Spain, the Gothic Spaniards as well.
And so throughout Northern Europe, the people are very handsome looking people.

The Lord went up to Scandinavia and he made the center for the Law religion at Lake Law (Maelare Lake, Sweden).

When the Kybernion (catholic government) gets shot to pieces, then people are going to start being interested again in the real story.
But until that time we have a Kybernion (catholic) corruption of Set-apart Night.

It would be well to actually have that story of how the ancient Law religion operated on their holidays.

One thing that is so interesting, in Finland they don't say January, February, etc. they use the Ancient Germanic names, they still use them in Switzerland as well. December is still called Yule Month in Finland, kuu is moon or month, and Joulukuu is Yule Month.
On Christmas 1957 I was in the old mid-evil capital of Finland called Turku. And on Pikku-Joulu, Little Christmas, all the people in this great big city all walked down to the city square, and the Lord Mayor came out on the balcony of the City Hall, and he proclaimed the Christmas Peace, and that was that everybody promised not to argue during the month of the Yuletide. And that is just an ancient thing from where the Yuletide came from, i.e. reindeer are from Scandinavia.

So if you had the Hansa meeting on Eastertide and All-hallows, then the Christmas period was done more on a local basis.

Basically, if people ask what a county is throughout the English speaking world, from time immemorial 12 men get together at the county court house, every three months. Everything works in quarters here, winter, spring, summer and fall, there is four quarters.

The point is that at Mid-summer Night, it still a big celebration in Scandinavia, and Mid-winter Night is a celebration all over the whole world. A quarter away from Mid-winter Night then you go to April 6, which is Ostertag, Easter-day, and that is the tag (day) that the Reichstag meets on, and each Landtag, and the Bundestag, they meet on that day. And they have a semi-annual meeting in the fall on All-hallows day, All-Saints Day in catholic speaking countries.

This the time of year that people are talking about these things.
And we are the ones with all the records of our race to tell everybody else how to put the story strait.

braingrunt wrote:I find myself unable to promote any false beliefs, even if they have symbolic value. I want them to believe me when I tell them Jesus Christ is real, and not come to some conclusion that he is a being with symbolic value in the same vein as santa claus.

Henmasher wrote:Sorry if this is callous, but if the children have a hard time determining a difference between their Savior and a holiday fat man in red that symbolizes charity, than there is more than trust issues with what a parent tells them. If there is a testimony of Christ than the belief in Santa once a year will not undermine the literality of their Savior. Santa does not replace Christ in my home but is actively enjoyed for the sake of recreation if you will. Otherwise we shall write the brethren and have all Christmas trees removed from all religous edifices since it bears no literal value to Christ and his birth. Overkill if you ask me and I move for the complete removal of the easter bunny from any and all traditions. Bah humbug

Some years ago as I heard my little son recite what he thought was a new poem, I was reminded that this was the Christmas season.

“Daddy, I’ve learned a new poem,” he said, “and I’d like to teach it to you. I know you’ll like it.” He then recited:
’Twas the night before Christmas, when all through the house
Not a creature was stirring, not even a mouse.

Clement C. Moore, A Visit from Saint Nicholas
He finished and said, “Isn’t that a wonderful poem, Daddy?”

I had an opportunity to tell him it was a wonderful poem, because almost everything that I associate with Christmas is important to me.

Just a couple of weeks before, I had had the privilege of taking my family downtown as Santa Claus made his appearance. It was interesting. Crowds gathered. One little girl had been standing on the side of the curb for what seemed to her like many minutes, waiting for this cherished event. Just as Santa Claus was to make his entry, great throngs of people crowded in front of her, blocking her view, and she began to cry.

A six-foot-three man who stood by her asked, “What’s the matter, dear?”

She said, “I have been waiting to see Santa, and now I can’t see him.”

He picked her up and placed her on his shoulders, providing her a commanding view. As Santa Claus came by, she waved her little hand toward him. He smiled and waved back to her and to everyone else in the crowd.

The little girl grabbed the hair of that big fellow and exclaimed, “He saw me! He saw me and smiled at me! I’m so glad it’s Christmas!” That little girl had the Christmas spirit.

As a very young elder, I went to the old Primary Children’s Hospital on North Temple Street to provide blessings for the sick children. Upon entering, we noted the Christmas tree with its bright and friendly lights and saw carefully wrapped packages beneath its outstretched limbs. We went through the corridors where tiny boys and girls—some with casts upon arms, some with casts upon legs, others with ailments that perhaps could not be cured so readily—each one with a smile upon his face.

I walked toward the bedside of one small boy. He said, “What is your name?” I told him.

He inquired, “Will you give me a blessing?” The blessing was provided, and as we turned to leave his bedside, he said “Thank you very much.”

We walked a few steps and then I heard his call, “Brother Monson.” I turned. He said, “Merry Christmas to you.” And a great smile flashed across his countenance.

That boy had the Christmas spirit.

The spirit of Christmas is something I would hope every young person would have in his heart and in his life, not only at this particular season but throughout the year.

I had the privilege of going to Atlanta, Georgia, and there saw the church where Peter Marshall presided. I thought of his declaration when he pleaded, “Let us not spend Christmas and let us not observe Christmas, necessarily, but let us keep Christmas in our hearts and in our lives.” This would be my plea today, for when we keep the spirit of Christmas, we keep the spirit of Christ, because the Christmas spirit is the Christ spirit.

One who had a keen insight into the Christmas spirit wrote:

“I am the Christmas Spirit. I enter the home of poverty and cause palefaced children to open wide their eyes in pleased wonder. I cause the miser to release his clutched hand, thus painting a bright spot upon his soul.

“I cause the aged to remember their youth and to laugh in the glad old way. I bring romance to childhood and brighten dreams woven with magic.

“I cause eager feet to climb dark stairways with filled baskets, leaving behind hearts amazed at the goodness of the world.

“I cause the prodigal to pause in his wild and wasteful way and send to anxious love some little token which releases glad tears, washing away the hard lines of sorrow.

“I enter dark prison cells, causing scarred manhood to remember what might have been and pointing to better days yet to come.

“I enter the still white home of pain, and there lips that are too weak to speak just tremble in silent, eloquent gratitude.

“In a thousand ways I cause this weary old world to look up into the face of God and for a few moments forget everything that is small and wretched. You see, I am the Christmas Spirit.” (Author unknown.)