LDS Freedom Forum

I'm repeating this because I want to emphasize it:

Let's not throw out a tradition simply because it has "pagan" influence. When you really think about it, MOST of our cultural traditions are connected to "pagan" or "heathen" practises in some way. Even all classical music!! The Western European music tradition (including classical music) can be clearly traced back to Gregorian Chant (Oh my Gosh! Catholic!!). Gregorian chant was influenced by Roman and Greek traditions as well as others. So justifying removing something out of your life just because it has some sort of a connection to something "pagan" is going to extremes. We could also condemn all African-based music because it originated from "heathen" practices. That means that all jazz, blues, African-American spirituals, etc. will have to go out the window. I hope people can see how ridiculous this can get. We just need to be balanced in how we approach things.

Also, as Darren pointed out so well, many of these "pagan" or "heathen" practises have elements of the truth in them. This world started out with all the truth in the time of Adam, but then over time much of that truth was distorted and changed so that the truthful origins are no longer recognizable. Truth can also originate from the time that the Saviour walked the earth, but again it was forgotten and distorted. But when we can find those elements of the truth, let's explore it further if possible and rejoice in that! I'm not saying that we should embrace ALL traditions, but let's embrace all the good in life that we can!

I'm removing myself from this thread, because it is obviously going nowhere good. I'm going off to listen to some nice African music!!!

Have a lovely day!

Oh, ChelC, please don't let the 'righteous' ruffle your overwrought feathers. I know it's difficult when you are carrying a load most people cannot comprehend.

Jesus DID have a sense of humor. Sometimes he was quite 'earthy' in his description of those who 'twit' someone they feel is outside the "LAW". I believe the following from Matthew is the Lord's metaphor for those who will 'swallow the whole LAW in every jot & tittle', but who are so 'bound up' they cannot 'pass' a tiny gnat into the chamber pot.

The Lord could say that without being a bit vulgar. So much so, that most people are too 'blind' to see it.

Matthew 23
24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.

Hebrews 12:12
Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees;

Job 4:
4Thy words have upholden him that was falling, and thou hast strengthened the feeble knees.

Proverbs 25
11A word fitly spoken is like apples of gold in pictures of silver.

ChemtrailWatcher wrote:I'm repeating this because I want to emphasize it:

Let's not throw out a tradition simply because it has "pagan" influence. When you really think about it, MOST of our cultural traditions are connected to "pagan" or "heathen" practises in some way. Even all classical music!! The Western European music tradition (including classical music) can be clearly traced back to Gregorian Chant (Oh my Gosh! Catholic!!). Gregorian chant was influenced by Roman and Greek traditions as well as others. So justifying removing something out of your life just because it has some sort of a connection to something "pagan" is going to extremes. We could also condemn all African-based music because it originated from "heathen" practices. That means that all jazz, blues, African-American spirituals, etc. will have to go out the window. I hope people can see how ridiculous this can get. We just need to be balanced in how we approach things.

Also, as Darren pointed out so well, many of these "pagan" or "heathen" practises have elements of the truth in them. This world started out with all the truth in the time of Adam, but then over time much of that truth was distorted and changed so that the truthful origins are no longer recognizable. Truth can also originate from the time that the Saviour walked the earth, but again it was forgotten and distorted. But when we can find those elements of the truth, let's explore it further if possible and rejoice in that! I'm not saying that we should embrace ALL traditions, but let's embrace all the good in life that we can!

I'm removing myself from this thread, because it is obviously going nowhere good. I'm going off to listen to some nice African music!!!

Have a lovely day!

I'm with ChemtrailWatcher. This is topic is a dead horse; I think we've all said what we have wanted to say. Pagans wore shoes and clothes too, so I'm sure I'll catch hellfire for that. Pagans had families! The LDS Church promotes families!

Sorry to reopen a thread that everyone is obviously sick of.

ndjili wrote:

I love it ChelC! You sound like a fun mom. I think we all need a little more fun and joy in our lives to counteract the greed and selfishness. There's nothing wrong with the way you're doing it. It definitely doesn't have to be one or the other.

Sooo to be a fun mom you HAVE to have Santa and lie to your kid????

Again what's wrong with Jesus?? Just Jesus??

We make our own ornaments for our tree, read the Christmas story for our nightly scripture study during this month, decorate gingerbread house, make cookies for the neighbors and give to those in need. See the Christmas lights and get hot cocoa...NONE of those things involve Satan...ooops I mean Santa and yet the season can be fun still. I just think we live in a world where certain things arent innocent anymore.

I don't know for sure that kids would have a hard time drawing a distinction between a massive santa hoax and other things that they cannot see, but which are true. My philosophy is, why take the chance? And why perjure myself? I can enjoy christmas trees and santa and easter bunnies without doing so. I'm sorry but I have a simple philosophy: tell no lie. I mean, the whole world is overflowing with lies; they taste bad in my mouth.

agreed

ndjili - apparently you missed the part where I said we don't celebrate with Santa at our house. Do you honestly think that my statement would imply that anyone who doesn't is not fun? What's with all the hostility here?! I was simply trying to show ChelC that not all of the Santa haters are narrow-minded and self-righteous. I think we all have bigger things to worry about than whether or not our neighbors celebrate with Santa.

I agree with ChelC that this forum has a HUGE problem with people hijacking threads with good original points and potential for real discussion. They tear them down because they don't agree, and feel threatened if anyone implies that their way isn't always 100% the best way for everyone. For that reason I hardly ever read it anymore. You've taken all the fun and positivity out of it.

ChelC wrote:Jules, did you read post #2? That's what got this ball rolling. I'm not the type to put my tail between my legs when someone is condemning the actions of a huge group of people which I believe are appropriate.

Also, I'm not entirely sure we won't keep many of our cultural traditions. Anyone have doctrinal references for that, or is it an assumption? The church seems rather fond of cultural celebrations and the happen with regularity at temple dedications.

LOL that was my post.... We should think about the myth of Santa... if you want to celebrate with Santa by all means do... we can worship in anyway we see fit.

After the second coming will the Savior dress up as santa clause and have all the kids come by and sit on his lap and have them ask what they want for Christmas?

Enough said.

Edited out by myself. Not worth fighting about.

katers wrote:Sorry to reopen a thread that everyone is obviously sick of.

My point in making this topic is to help those looking for it, or having feeling about Santa, to see where and how to find the person who began the legend of what today has become among the modern versions of Santa.

Hate, dislike, indifference, like or love for Santa has nothing to do with the history part.

Is the history behind Santa something worth finding out, when it may contain important cultural information, hiding in plain sight in spite of the misinformation?

Santa's true beginnings are what they are. And that is no lie.

Belief in Santa Claus is about finding out who this legendary figure is. Something that is difficult at best with our current misunderstandings.

There is a danger in dismissing Santa Claus out of hat, because of negative propaganda, when His legend may be a starting point to understanding the basis of lost tribes of Israel Scriptures, hiding in plain sight!

Santa being or not being accepted over the pulpit at General Conference, is because our cultural memory of him, that has components of the Scriptures of the lost tribes of Israel with it have also not been ruled on, as these Scriptures are currently only anticipated to be coming. So the jury is out on the Scriptures of the lost tribes of Israel, and the cultural beginnings, that include Odin's cultural legacy, that we still operate upon today.

Come on guys, believe in Santa, or Odin, that he is real in the sense that he did exist in the flesh and continues to exist in heaven.

And anticipate that we may learn some very important truths by discovering these things from our ancestral histories and culture. By being positive about positive things.

God Bless,
Darren

I hear you, Darren. Thanks for bringing the history to our attention. I think it's fascinating.

**Alert for Santa haters**
Do not look at page 48 of the current Ensign. You'll get all... mad.

Yes, Darren, thank you for the information.

Raindrop wrote:**Alert for Santa haters**
Do not look at page 48 of the current Ensign. You'll get all... mad.

Yes, Darren, thank you for the information.

Obviously the church has been compromised. The Ensign is probably written and edited at BYU

Yes, thanks Darren. I think you brought up the historical account of Santa a year or two ago. I enjoyed it then as I do now.

I would like to clarify my thoughts on this topic.

I see the pagan roots in Christmas along with almost all holidays we celebrate. I was raised by a historian mother. I tend though for myself not to try to search out through pagan traditions to find what small sliver of truth left behind by the original Gospel for I feel I have the Restoration of the Gospel and do not need to seek any of from where it is mixed with paganism. Some may find that interesting as Darren does and that is fine. I would caution people seeking truth from the world or from pagan lore is to just be-careful of ones intent. I have seen so many people looking for Gospel truths out in the world to only find themselves lead astray. History is fascinating and much can be gained by understanding it. But when it comes to Gospel truths they are best found within the pale of the Gospel. In saying that I am not saying that finding out the history of Santa Claus is seeking to find truths in paganism. It can merely be seeking out historical data which is fine. It is good to know history. Just as long as we do not end up mixing things we find into our faith.


As for Santa I really do not care if people decorate with images of him or use him as part of their Christmas. I have a 4 foot one that dances that my dad gave me...lol The only area I tend not to personally like "myself" is telling my child, he is real. That though is up to each family just as all else is. The statements I have said were meant to point out my personal experience and to say that Santa Claus can still be fun even when a child knows he is just fantasy. That is what I mean when I say "Why lie to are children?" I just do not see the need to say he is real, when they can have just as much fun knowing they are pretending he is real. We cannot say telling a child that Santa Claus is real is not lying. It maybe a very tiny white lie, but it is still speaking falsehood. Stating anything that we know is not true knowingly is technically a lie. Is it a huge lie no, Is the intent bad, no. Is it of huge importance, no. Do wonderful good people tell their children that Santa is real, of course. Will we be held accountable as it being a lie, I have no idea, but I am sure it it is down on the list if it is on it. I only was trying to say I do not feel it is a necessary thing to do to enjoy Christmas or even Santa Claus himself. Just as a child has fun playing with their teddy bear and pretending he is real. I would never tell my child their teddy bear was real, but it does not stop them from loving their teddy bear as much or having wonderful child fantasies about their teddy bear. I know when I was little I would wonder if all my toys came to life when I was not in the room or sleeping. I knew that was not true, my parents said they did not, but it was a fun fantasy to think about and imagine. Children will fantasizes even when they know that things are not real. That to me is the part that is fun as a child. I did not feel I was missing out on anything by knowing what was real and what was not. I had lots of imagination and had lots of fun.

As to the matter of telling children Santa is real. I do not want people to think I am saying what you should or should not do as a parent. But I do feel I should be able to voice how "I" feel about Santa just as much as others can express how they feel. I am one that does not like white lies. Some don't feel they are of much importance. I just am uncomfortable with even small lies. Everyone has a different tolerance and view upon white lies. That is the same for all things. We all have things that make us more uncomfortable than others. Truth is important to me and I base trust of individuals based on their honesty. Everyone is different. Everyone has different things that are more important than other things. We all have different priorities. That does not make everyone wrong or any individual right. Because truthfully we are all wrong for we all are sinners that in one area or another we fall short. I fall short in areas and try to improve them. We cannot be perfect in this life. We cannot do everything perfect at all times no matter how hard we try.

I do not think this topic needs to fruit contention. Or for people to be called names over it. From either side. There are far more important issue than Santa Claus.

ndjili - apparently you missed the part where I said we don't celebrate with Santa at our house. Do you honestly think that my statement would imply that anyone who doesn't is not fun? What's with all the hostility here?! I was simply trying to show ChelC that not all of the Santa haters are narrow-minded and self-righteous. I think we all have bigger things to worry about than whether or not our neighbors celebrate with Santa.

I agree with ChelC that this forum has a HUGE problem with people hijacking threads with good original points and potential for real discussion. They tear them down because they don't agree, and feel threatened if anyone implies that their way isn't always 100% the best way for everyone. For that reason I hardly ever read it anymore. You've taken all the fun and positivity out of it.

Sorry that you took my statement that way. There is a lack of inflection in the written word.

narrow-minded and self-righteous.

I havent called people names or gotten nasty..I simply made a comment that in the inflection of my mind and how I meant came out badly I guess. But I never called people names such as you and the other accusers on this thread have done.

I admit to wording things badly but have been surprised at all the backlash and name calling people have done to those who have an opinion different than the majority.

I did a search in the past for Santa Claus on LDS.org and it gave me 144 articles to look through. I didn't read every article just about 10 or so, and I read the summary for each article. Apparently Church Headquarters is very positive about the Santa tradition. And I could find no policy about Santa.

I also found an article in the Ensign that suggests that celebrating Christ's Birthday on December 25 is promoting a lie as to the day that Christ was born.

I think it is just silly, when people try to be very learned about Christmas. Truth is often stranger than fiction. Being logical about Christmas is just dumb, you might as well just forget the holiday if you are trying to out do yourself with a logical explanation about the celebration of Christmas. The stuff we base our logic upon is often propaganda anyway. I say let the spirit guide. And let Christmas be a moment of connection with the Spirit.

I tell my children that the Coca-Cola Santa is just a modern version of the memory of the Nordic God Story of Odin who I firmly believe was Jesus Christ as he administrated among the lost tribes of Israel. I believe in this Santa, the resurrected Lord and God of 3 Nephi 16:1-3 as he visited our Nordic Ancestors.

When Cleon Skousen set-up the Freeman Institute, part of his efforts were to try to get us to rediscover the goodness of the culture and traditions from our Anglo-Saxon-Germanic lost tribes of Israel ancestors. I am just trying to be faithful to that effort initiated by President David O. McKay. Santa is part of that traditional past.


The Roman Catholic Assembly, is a religion based on Aristotelian philosophy, and the scholastic method, as is also Islam and Orthodox Jew. In continuing in the Love of Logic religion of the Greeks as they continued that culture from the tower of Babel, and as it has been perpetuated until today as the top-down logic base control systems of Governments and Humanist Styled Assemblies today.

The old Germanic Religion is the Church of the Kings/Patriarchs of old as they followed the perfect or "thor"ough one Thor. Just as Woden/Odin gave his eye to Thor for wisdom (John 5:19). So we also are to give our eye, our will, to God for wisdom that leads to Eternal Life.

According to the Icelandic Eddas the very first leader of their Church as set up by Woden (after moving from Asialand to Germany) was the apostle Peter, nick named Thor after Woden's father Thor (the Thor-ough Father), as Peter was so perfect also. Woden placed his hands upon this leader and the other temple priests and blessed them. Some of the Germanic names of the other temple priests who migrated with the Church were Will, Way, Balder, Elmer, Brag, Ing who had his name changed from Nord, and Ing's father Freyer. Ing and Freyer were of the Wayne People who immigrated from the north east coast of the Black Sea to Saxland around 40 AD.

Everything good about our Germanic culture appears to stem from those folks of the original Ancient Christian Germanic Church. The Free Enterprise System begins with what they brought to the world. Church is an ancient Germanic word that means the "kingdom of the keys" Keyrich in ancient Germanic Languages, and when the keys went to Germany freedom and law resulted. Since them you have had a choice to either belong to Aristotle's Universal Assembly - All Orthodox religions, or the Church, the Kingdom of the Keys of the Patriarchs. And the way you can tell which one you follow is your preference to logic or to the Holy Ghost.

The constitution is hanging by a thread, and the original constitution that we base our US Constitution on is the articles of incorporation of the Original Church of Jesus Christ of Former-day Saints established as the Church among the Germanic lost tribes of Israel. Getting back to that original constitution is how we save our US Constitution. Figuring out truths in our culture, and sharing them with others is a great way to get back to that original constitution, and thereby save our US Constitution, and then building on this understanding onward to the Modern Zion.


God Bless,
Darren

Jo and I thought it simpler not to lie to our kids about Santa, hasn't seemed to effect them at all, my family still has fantastic Christmas parties however, we did wait until they ask! We have been told our kids lost the wonderful spirit of Christmas they might have had, had we not told them the truth about Santa, what nonsense!

Growing up in my family, most things were all business, we did things based upon my parents life's experiences, they having grown up during the great depression. I don't remember ever believing the Santa of my childhood day was real. But I do remember my mother once commenting about my much younger brothers and sister that "that" specific Christmas would probable be the last "magical" Christmas for them because they were going to discover Santa wasn't real. I admitted to not understanding that rational, I had always known Daddy was Santa, how? I caught him in the act!

Bob

Elder Faust has some pretty strong feelings about Santa. In fact he wants us all to emulate him:

No one can measure the effect of an unselfish act of kindness. By small, simple things great things do indeed come to pass. Of course gifts given and gifts received make Christmas special. For many children Christmas Eve is a very long night as they look forward with eager anticipation to the gifts Santa brings, which is why children love Santa Claus. Let me share what someone once said about Santa Claus: First of all, he's a joyous individual.

People are attracted to joyous individuals as filings are attracted to a magnet. Next, Santa Claus is interested in making others happy. He increases the happy moments in the life of everyone he meets. He loves his work; he gets fun out of his job. He is childlike, simple, humble, sincere, and forgiving. Finally, he is a giver. His philosophy is to give himself away in service. He is a friend to everyone. He smiles. Perhaps you and I could attain greater happiness if we emulated Santa Claus a little more, for his way is the way of the Infant Jesus also."

James E Faust
The Man Who Would Be Santa. First Presidency Christmas Devotional. December 06, 1998
http://www.byub.org/talks/Talk.aspx?id=2671

Thank you, for that quote, Holyhabanero!

I guess we can proceed with finding joy in 'emulating' the Spirit of Christ through the example of Bishop St. Nicholas.

For those with younger children or who remain childlike themselves Hulu has a sweet Bishop St. Nicholas feature film with James Earl Jones as the storyteller. It's a fun overview of how St. Nicholas - over the many centuries - became who we know as Santa Claus with the help of his Moorish companion. I particularly appreciate the inclusion of 'people of color' in this caring perspective regarding Santa's love for ALL people. St. Nicholas even carries The Book of Life with family genealogies and records of individual conduct throughout the centuries.

Hope you find Santa and Pete as enjoyable as we have.

http://www.hulu.com/watch/112014/santa-and-pete

In my family we deal with school children all the time. One example was my husband was trying to explain to 6th graders a scientific concept about the ocean. The children disagreed because they said Sponge Bob talks so the sea creatures talk to each other. He had to explain to a large portion of this group of children that Sponge Bob was fantasy and did not represent sea life. At 6th grade you would think they would understand the difference between fantasy and reality but it was blurred.

Another example was my son when he was in 5th grade was talking to a girl his age. The topic of magic was brought up. My son said there was no such thing as "good" magic. His friend said "What about fairies they are good". He had to explain to her they were not real. She was a bit confused and said they were real and gave examples from shows like Disney, but finally started to understood what he was saying. She thought what the Priesthood did was the same kind of magic faeries did. Because it was "good". Bad magic is thought of as things that hurt. My son had to explain to her that the Power of the Priesthood comes from God and that faeries are not real and "if" they were they were not getting their power from God, therefore their powers are not good. It was hard for her to understand that faeries were not real and understand that God is the only source of good powers. She was LDS.

Our children are blurring reality and fantasy in dangerous ways today. It was not as dangerous in past ages, but is increasingly getting more dangerous. All the many kids movies, TV shows, book that teach children they have magical powers they can just use if the just believe. Is indoctrinating them to get involved with the counterfeit powers of God. I feel strongly that the reason things like the Law of Attraction are so accepted by those that are around 40 and even a bit older is because of movies like Star Wars. Which taught of this universal force in the universe one can tap into that is neutral, that can be used for good or evil. So therefore when it was presented as adults it felt familiar and right because they were already indoctrinated with the idea. Our children are being even far more indoctrinated with this ideas of fantasy having foundations of truth. I feel it is very important that it is made clear to them what is truth and what is false as your parents did. Even in the simplest things. I feel helping them discern truth is one of the greatest things we can teach our children.

We had Santa and I'm equally appreciative to my parents. Reality was never confusing to me. I figured out about Santa naturally, like I figured out about snipes, barking spiders, and why weebles never fell down. It was no more confusing to me than my grandfathers artificial leg (that was a doozy at four years old). Teasing about all sorts of things was never viewed by me as deception, because I always knew my parents loved me. I always watched them living a Christlike example. My parents walked the walk when it came to service and loving others.

Have the traditions you choose to have. Teach your children to feel the spirit. Read from the scriptures. Love one another. If you do those things your children will likely look back with fondness whether it be upon memories of Santa or memories of waltzing atop their Daddy's feet as is one of my favorite memories.

Enough of this 'my way is the RIGHT and BETTER way bologna.

ChelC wrote:Have the traditions you choose to have.

Even if they're a lie?

I dont think most on this board are saying that what we do and think is the right way...it's the right way for us....not for everyone.

In my family we grew up not believing in Santa. It was more because we were very poor and my dad didnt want us thinking that we didnt get things for Christmas like the other kids because we were bad. My parents made gifts and did many great and fun traditions with us and we loved Christmas. I wasnt going to let my children believe in Santa because I didnt see the point. I loved Christmas without him, but when we had our son I looked at the world and saw so much evil and wanted my child to enjoy the magic of Christmas while he could, so Santa was in. '

When my child turned 2 I began to have doubts (this was before I became active in the church). Santa (for our family) felt wrong. Once I became active I overheard my brother talking to my mom about the difficulties he was having with his teenage son. HE made a joke, something to the affect of, 'well they relaized that we lied to them their whole lives and now wont listen to anything we have to say'. This stuck with me. At that point Santa was out.

I dont think there is a one size fits all answer regarding Santa. Many kids do well with it and get over it when they find Santa isnt real, some do not. I say people do what's right for their children and familes...Santa or no. Santa is a part of Christmas...as is Frosty and the Grinch but we tell him they arent real...but fun stories.....he is still confused because everyone else in the world tells him that these things are real...but that's ok when he grows up maybe he'll trust me more than the world.

Hope everyone had a wonderful and safe Christmas....Santa or no.

That's it.
I'm tired of all the Christmas hype. DID YOU HAVE A GOOD CHRISTMAS, HOW WAS YOU CHRISTMAS, DID YOU GET WHAT YOU WANTED FOR CHRISTMAS, MERRY CHRISTMAS, WAS SANTA GOOD TO YOU. SANTA STUNK LIKE BOOZE.
THE DAY AFTER CHRISTMAS WE HERE, MAN AM I HUNG, HOW WILL I EVER PAY FOR ALL THIS STUFF, DIDN'T GET EVERYTHING I WANTED, THE LIQUOR AND BEER STORE WERE PACKED, MY BOY GOT BETTER STUFF THAN YOUR BOY, IT TOOK ME FIVE MINUTES TO OPEN MY PRESENTS AND IT'S ALL OVER.
THE HAND SHAKE IS REPLACED BY THE MIDDLE FINGER SALUTE, THE BEAUTIFULL SONGS ARE PUT AWAY AND REPLACED BY GARBAGE MUSIC, THE GIVING TO THE POOR IS GONE FOR ANOTHER YEAR, CHRISTMAS TREES ARE THROWN TO THE CURB ALONG WITH THE GOOD THAT IS PRATISED FOR THE CHRISTMAS SEASON.
DO I SAY HUM BUG TO IT ALL.YES I DO.
WANT A POSITIVE STATEMENT FROM ME ABOUT THE WHOLE THING.
THE BIRTH OF JESUS CHRIST AND THE CONTINUOS PEACE JOY AND COMFORT I HAVE BECAUSE OF HIM LASTS ALL YEAR EVERY YEAR.

You know what's funny? My eight year old asked me this year if Santa is real. I asked him what do you think? We talked about flying reindeer and visiting all the children in one night and I told him he could decide. It's obvious in the week since that he has decided it's more fun to believe.

He has never asked if Christ is real. Because he feels the spirit. Christ is invited into our home each and every day. We learn of him, we speak of him. He's as real as the air we breathe.

I like Santa. I AM NOT abusing, mistreating, or leading my children astray. As I read in a book today, "Don't bully me with your politeness".

ChelC wrote:I like Santa. I AM NOT abusing, mistreating, or leading my children astray. As I read in a book today, "Don't bully me with your politeness".

Was this for me? If so, I don't appreciate the insinuation I was bullying anyone. I asked a very simple, direct question. Don't want to answer it? Fine, don't. Move on. Good gosh.

Rob wrote:

ChelC wrote:I like Santa. I AM NOT abusing, mistreating, or leading my children astray. As I read in a book today, "Don't bully me with your politeness".

Was this for me? If so, I don't appreciate the insinuation I was bullying anyone. I asked a very simple, direct question. Don't want to answer it? Fine, don't. Move on. Good gosh.

It was a generalized statement actually.

Several comments in the life of the thread have been calling people who include Santa Claus in their traditions liars (and bad parents) and we're supposed to pretend this is a polite conversation?

Rob wrote:

ChelC wrote:Have the traditions you choose to have.

Even if they're a lie?

See the quote form Elder Faust a few posts above.