LDS Freedom Forum

I love it ChelC! You sound like a fun mom. I think we all need a little more fun and joy in our lives to counteract the greed and selfishness. There's nothing wrong with the way you're doing it. It definitely doesn't have to be one or the other.

Sooo to be a fun mom you HAVE to have Santa and lie to your kid????

Again what's wrong with Jesus?? Just Jesus??

We make our own ornaments for our tree, read the Christmas story for our nightly scripture study during this month, decorate gingerbread house, make cookies for the neighbors and give to those in need. See the Christmas lights and get hot cocoa...NONE of those things involve Satan...ooops I mean Santa and yet the season can be fun still. I just think we live in a world where certain things arent innocent anymore.

I don't know for sure that kids would have a hard time drawing a distinction between a massive santa hoax and other things that they cannot see, but which are true. My philosophy is, why take the chance? And why perjure myself? I can enjoy christmas trees and santa and easter bunnies without doing so. I'm sorry but I have a simple philosophy: tell no lie. I mean, the whole world is overflowing with lies; they taste bad in my mouth.

agreed

Braingrunt said
I'm sorry but I have a simple philosophy: tell no lie. I mean, the whole world is overflowing with lies; they taste bad in my mouth.

I don't judge you too harshly if you feel otherwise.

ps... I'm not just being paranoid when I make reference to a class of people who see the gospel as a purely symbolic truth which added great meaning to their lives. One I knew from beliefnet years ago, held a temple recommend, yet had no literal belief in Jesus Christ (you couldn't get him to say those words aloud though). He felt he could honestly answer yes when the bishop asked if he had a testimony of christ. It was stunning to watch him subtly redefine the whole gospel in his own image and then worship it so ardently. He was really worshipping himself. I have seen others with a similar philosophy and I wish they were out of the church.

Fair enough. I apologize for being critical and I should have seen there was more too it. Toeach their own

You are missing the point! No more lies, if you know the truth.

What if Santa were Jesus? Being a lingering cultural memory of the Savior appearing to the lost tribes of Israel.

And we as modern decedents of that culture have just been missing the connection.

The story of Santa could be the most important missing persons investigation of all time.

The story of the connection between the ancestral Santa person and Christ being potentially big enough to topple the PTB.

Perhaps knowing the story behind the ancient Santa person, we could even save the constitution, as may have been Santa's person that was the person who made the first constitution with our ancestors. Could it be? I have seen the connection.

I see a big story here, for those interested enough to find it. And there it was all the time hiding right under our noses, or behind a beard and mustache.

God Bless,
Darren

There is little enough JOY in this world.

Perhaps we all need to find more of miracles in our Christian Testimony.

I just recently found that there is strong evidence the Apostle Paul taught in the British Isles during his missionary efforts among the 'Gentiles'.

There is much more to history than we know.

Besides, there is scriptural witness of Santa Claus found in Zechariah 2:

6 ¶ Ho, ho, come forth, and flee from the land of the north, saith the Lord: for I have spread you abroad as the four winds of the heaven, saith the Lord.


M E R R Y C H R I S T M A S ! ! !

When I was a child I heard of Santa Claus but was never told he was real. I was very very young about 3 and I asked my Mother if Santa Claus was real. She asked me what I thought. I pondered it I explained why he was not real and why he was fake. She agreed. When I asked my mother about Christ she asked me what I thought to told her I thought He was real. She then told me yes she thought he was real too. My mother had no real religion but had the feeling that Christ was real.

My mother was always honest with me. She was not sure there was a God but she hoped there was. She was always honest even about her doubts. She never lied to me so her words of advice and opinions really mattered to me. I listened to her, for I trusted that she would tell me, to the best of her ability what she felt was true. There was nothing fake about my mother. She did not tease or play jokes, she was always straightforward. She was my rock till I found Christ.

I ask "Why lie to our Children." Christmas was wonderful for me based on truth without lies. Christmas was explained from a historical perspective, what parts of it originated in paganism and what parts came from Christianity. From Christmas trees to the lights, Santa Claus and Jesus Christ etc... I knew the History of Christmas in its full form. I did not miss-out on anything special that I regret not having. Christmas was full of joy and love. If anything it gave me a solid foundation on which to base my most formative years. Morality is taught at the youngest ages. Children mimic what they see. As silly and small as the Santa lie appears to be I cannot help but wonder would I have trusted my mother as much had she lied to me about Santa Claus or anything else. She was my moral foundation till I found God, then later found the LDS Church. I trusted my mother my whole life knowing she would never lie to me about anything no matter how small. What a great blessing that was to have such a mother. I know she is the major reason why truth has always been so important to me. Truth was truth with her, if she did not know she said she did not know. I was always a truth seeker which is the reason I found the Church. I credit my mother and her great example of integrity for my desire for truth.

The smallest things can mean the most in a child's eye.

To me, this debate is as fruitless as debating the Word of Wisdom. Everyone has their own interpretations of what was meant exactly by the revelation on the Word of Wisdom, and many have interpretations that go beyond official statements by the First Presidency. Of course everyone has the right to personal revelation on the subject and has the agency to interpret the scriptures for themselves, but they do not have the right to tell everyone else that their interpretation is official Church policy and that others should do likewise.

Although there is no official statement by the First Presidency, the Church magazines are full of stories which mention Santa Claus as part of a family's tradition. Just search "Santa Claus" in all the LDS magazines on "lds.org."

Here's one quote by Elder Jeffrey R. Holland in the Dec. 1994 New Era:

... I, like you, need to remember the very plain scene, even the poverty, of a night devoid of tinsel or wrapping or goods of this world. Only when we see that sacred, unadorned child of our devotion—the Babe of Bethlehem—will we know why “tis the season to be jolly” and why the giving of gifts is so appropriate.
At the focal point of all human history, a point illuminated by a new star in the heavens revealed for just such a purpose, probably no other mortal watched—none but a poor young carpenter, a beautiful virgin mother, and silent stabled animals who had not the power to utter the sacredness they had seen. Shepherds would soon arrive and later, wise men from the East. Later yet the memory of that night would bring Santa Claus and Frosty and Rudolph—and all would be welcome. But first and forever there was just a little family, without toys or trees or tinsel. With a baby—that’s how Christmas began.

Has it occurred to anyone that perhaps all this debate about Santa Claus is giving him more time than he's really worth? Perhaps this annual debate between Christian families regarding Santa Claus is a tool that Satan is using to spread contention and anxiety? The fact is that we all have different ideas on the subject. However, we ALL agree that Jesus Christ is the true focal point of Christmas. Perhaps we should focus our topics of conversation in the Christmas season on that and not on a fruitless debate about whether or not we should be allowed to pretend there's a big guy in a red suit. We should also not imply that parents who carry on the tradition of Santa are liars. That is simply an unfair and unkind judgment. It is also very unfair to equate Santa with Satan IMO. That shows an overzealousness that I wish to have no part of.

Just my thoughts on this. I will not post anything further on this thread because I believe there's a lot more important things in the world to worry about than this.

We don't lie to our kids, we just tell them the truth... that mom and dad are the ones that get them the presents... of course we tell them about Jesus and all the stories associates with Christmas... and my kids still talk about Santa Clause and have fun with Christmas just the same as any other kid, but they also know the truth, no lies involved.

This topic is reminding me of when I was in about 6th grade. There was a girl in my class that still believed in Santa Claus. When this came out all the other children laughed and laughed at her. She was the only one to believe. It became a huge issue. She demanded he was real because her parents said so. It became a full war over Santa Claus. It was really sad to witness. Kids told her that her parents we lying she would say they were not lairs. Some of us tried to get the mean kids to back off and just let her be, but they would not do it. It was bad. The saddest part was she was a normal child. She got along well with everyone she was liked up until then. After that she was ostracized. She never regained popularity and was from then on the girl all the mean kids picked on. It was really sad. This lasted not just that year but on to Jr High and High School. Kids can be so mean over the dumbest stuff.

When we went to Jr High she tried to sit at the table I was at with some friends. They told her no. Then I was lectured by them not to associate with her because I would not be "cool". Well for me that ended my sitting at that table, I got up and left them and I joined my crying friend who at this point was rejected by every other table. I never joined a click, not before and not after. I took my stand that day and never looked back.

So if one decides to say to their child Santa Claus is real, just make sure they know before the rest of the kids and get picked on for it.

My Stepdaughter was mad as can be when she found out her mother lied about Santa Claus.

So I guess for me I have seen the negative side of Santa along with the cuteness.

So if one decides to say to their child Santa Claus is real, just make sure they know before the rest of the kids and get picked on for it.

A little off topic but a thought I had when I read your post, Rosabella, was that we also should teach our children how to deal with bullying (either directed at them or another child) in a loving and Christ-like manner.

SmallFarm wrote:

So if one decides to say to their child Santa Claus is real, just make sure they know before the rest of the kids and get picked on for it.

A little off topic but a thought I had when I read your post, Rosabella, was that we also should teach our children how to deal with bullying (either directed at them or another child) in a loving and Christ-like manner.

I almost added that very thought to what I posted, right after I posted it. Thanks for adding it for me.

I think it is an insult to Jesus Christ to have a man running around in a red suit especially in our church on the day that we are to remember the birth of Christ. It made me sick to see such a thing happen as our bishop gave in to pressure from the congregation.

I have reconciled my belief in Santa Claus.

Santa Claus represents a memory of Jesus Christ.

The memory of Jesus Christ's visit to the lost tribes of Israel lingers in the personification of Santa Clause. And until the Scriptures of the lost tribes of Israel are accepted at a conference of the Church, then these lingering memories and the histories embedded in our culture are what we have available to remember and explore the amazing coincidences of this personification of who is Santa Claus today.

It is a catholic lie to tell a child that Jesus Christ was born on December 25, instead of April 6.

December 25th and the 12 days after that have from time immemorial been Nordic lost tribes of Israel Holidays for the celebration by the members of the Church for their faithfulness to the purpose of Odin. Their part and contribution to the undieingness of mankind, in following after Him.

Odin is Jesus Christ. Odin is the person who is remembered best in the caricature of Santa Claus.

And that is no lie.

God Bless,
Darren

Darren wrote: Odin is Jesus Christ.

I'm related to him. I think I need to go lie down.

Raindrop wrote:

Darren wrote: Odin is Jesus Christ.

I'm related to him. I think I need to go lie down.

There are those in this audience who are descendants of the Lord's Twelve Apostles-and, shall I say it, yes, descendants of the Savior himself! His seed is represented in the body of these men.

George Q. Cannon, Solemn Assembly in the Salt Lake Temple, July 2, 1899, Meeting Notes Utah State Historical Society, p. 376.

And to think that while investigating a link between the Savior and Santa, so many ancient clues are to be found.

No wonder the orthodox catholics wanted to erase the history of who is the Lord and God of December 25th.

God Bless,
Darren

Odin is Jesus Christ. Odin is the person who is remembered best in the caricature of Santa Claus.

Odin is a pagan god...many use the same argument fo rQuatzequatel, Ra and Zeus and so on...Once they become a pagan diety they are no longer representations of anything of God but become Satanic counterfiets.

Wow there are some bitter people in here! I am reminded of the verse "to the pure all things are pure..."

All myths and legends point to true principles. I think what Darren is trying to get at is that by understanding the 'doctrinal debris' we can see how these many symbols all around us are rooted in truth.

All our Christmases revolve around Jesus Christ. The idea of a Santa is that of a kind and giving person who gives gifts just as the wise men gave gifts to Jesus. I once thought there was a Santa as a child but then became suspicious when I wondered why he always had the same handwriting as my mother! I found the truth. Likewise, as time went on and questioned my own beliefs as we all must do and found the truth as well. I have no emotional scars.

I appreciate the input Darren brings. Everything fits together, and one day, when our children are old enough to understand, we will explain the truth to them behind the history of Santa Claus. I think he is a great metaphor for the spirit of the season. We use several other metaphors that point to Christ during this time of year; candy canes, wreaths, etc. Pagans worshiped the sun, there are suns on our temples, pagans worshiped Ashtar (Venus) and we use it on our temples. Satanists and witches use the pentacle and so do we on our temples.

German, English and Spanish all use mostly the same letters in their alphabet but the way we arrange them into words is quite different. I have adopted [url-http://oneclimbs.com/2010/10/10/brigham-young-on-truth/]Brigham Young's views[/url] on how I approach truth.

5tev3 wrote:Wow there are some bitter people in here! I am reminded of the verse "to the pure all things are pure..."

So, if we refuse to lie to our children, we are not pure?

Straw man - bad form.

Ah yes, it is only those who are the liars to the childen that are the purest among us

There were holy days set up by the Lord in the law of Moses. Jesus never established Christmas, the entire thing was conceived out of the minds of pagans in the dark ages. But we celebrate it as a cultural tradition along with the metaphors, symbols and types. We find the good in it and celebrate with everyone else. If you want to pick and choose the traditional elements that you want to incorporate into your traditions you are free to do so; in fact, most people do.

So do impose upon your family the pagan ritual of tree-worship by killing an innocent tree and decorating it's carcass with Walmart-purchased trinkets? What will the children think when they discover one day that Jesus never asked us to put dead trees in our homes to celebrate his birth?

Do you dare give your children presents and participate in the shopping mayhem that worships corporate America? Does your nativity scene show the wise men there at the night of Christ's birth? False doctrine! Why will the first presidency not issue a statement banning that jolly old red devil from the traditions of the Saints? Don't they know how many souls have been lost, how many families have been broken, how much faith has been shattered?!??

How will the children EVER make it????

It is a miracle any of us can have a testimony despite all those despicable lies that our parents and grandparents told us. Oh how they must have loathed us!

Ok, so back to reality. Santa has been around for generations and I have never met one scarred for life person. Kids live in make-believe. I once truly belived that there was a secret portal in my wall that led to a dimension full of dinosaur people. I grew out of it. Childhood magic is full of imagination and metaphors. You do what you will, but don't call the rest liars for their traditions.

You don't want to lie to your kids, neither do I, but if you're really committed don't stop at Santa, eliminate every holiday not mentioned in scripture and keep yourself pure from from us liars.

5tev3 wrote:Straw man - bad form.

Ah yes, it is only those who are the liars to the childen that are the purest among us

There were holy days set up by the Lord in the law of Moses. Jesus never established Christmas, the entire thing was conceived out of the minds of pagans in the dark ages. But we celebrate it as a cultural tradition along with the metaphors, symbols and types. We find the good in it and celebrate with everyone else. If you want to pick and choose the traditional elements that you want to incorporate into your traditions you are free to do so; in fact, most people do.

So do impose upon your family the pagan ritual of tree-worship by killing an innocent tree and decorating it's carcass with Walmart-purchased trinkets? What will the children think when they discover one day that Jesus never asked us to put dead trees in our homes to celebrate his birth?

Do you dare give your children presents and participate in the shopping mayhem that worships corporate America? Does your nativity scene show the wise men there at the night of Christ's birth? False doctrine! Why will the first presidency not issue a statement banning that jolly old red devil from the traditions of the Saints? Don't they know how many souls have been lost, how many families have been broken, how much faith has been shattered?!??

How will the children EVER make it????

It is a miracle any of us can have a testimony despite all those despicable lies that our parents and grandparents told us. Oh how they must have loathed us!

Ok, so back to reality. Santa has been around for generations and I have never met one scarred for life person. Kids live in make-believe. I once truly belived that there was a secret portal in my wall that led to a dimension full of dinosaur people. I grew out of it. Childhood magic is full of imagination and metaphors. You do what you will, but don't call the rest liars for their traditions.

You don't want to lie to your kids, neither do I, but if you're really committed don't stop at Santa, eliminate every holiday not mentioned in scripture and keep yourself pure from from us liars.

Pres Uchtdorf spoke of the grinch in his Christmas devotional address tonight. Get a rope!

Like I said before ... santa clause will not be celebrated in the Millennium. Many false doctrine and TRADITIONS of the WORLD will be purged from our worship.

I state again that Joseph Smith said he could not give us more light and knowledge as many members of the church would not give up their old traditions... let me spell it out for you. Santa Clause is one of those traditions that holds members back from further truth and light. We, many times, limit God to our understanding when we should not. His ways are not our ways. We need to learn of his ways and remove from our lives those things that do not match his teachings.

A pure worship of Christmas would not include Santa Clause.

Santa is Jesus Christ!? WHAT are you serious? I really don't know what to say about that. That is like saying mohamod (misspelled on purpose) is Jesus Christ. It just won't work.

You can justify it all you want and smooth it out by saying and pointing out all the positive aspects of the santa but I can tell you a better way would to just point out the positives of Jesus Christ alone. Leave Santa to the pagans.

I am only stating my opinion and this is not meant to call out anyone on this site. I just have to put the truth out there and just because a prophet has not said it does not mean it is not true. I can see when we gather before we build NJ that many many old traditions will be "removed" from our worldly lives as we try to move to a celestial law.

That will be a fun and interesting time.

Our destruction is imminent.

Seriously, if you want to keep certain elements like Santa out of you Christmas tradition, I don't have a problem at all with it. I just get a bit touchy when people go condemning others over a non-essential (in the sphere of essentials) tradition. I also think some people may swing the other way on the pendulum by trying to hard to make the metaphor into a real person. And by that I mean the whole North Pole, elves, etc. Kids don't get metaphors or symbolism, everything to them is real anyway, from monsters under the bed to their imaginary friend. It's perfectly fine to play in their imaginations with metaphors that will stick with them now and mean more to them later.

A pure worship would not have Christmas at all which isn't a true, pure holy day to begin with.

5tev3 wrote:A pure worship would not have Christmas at all which isn't a true, pure holy day to begin with.

OPs I reported the last post not quoted it. HA

I agree with this. I just did not want to go tooo far. Christmas may be removed all together for more appropriate holy true days like easter, passover, Feast of the Bride Groom and more.

7cylon7 wrote:Like I said before ... santa clause will not be celebrated in the Millennium. Many false doctrine and TRADITIONS of the WORLD will be purged from our worship.

I state again that Joseph Smith said he could not give us more light and knowledge as many members of the church would not give up their old traditions... let me spell it out for you. Santa Clause is one of those traditions that holds members back from further truth and light. We, many times, limit God to our understanding when we should not. His ways are not our ways. We need to learn of his ways and remove from our lives those things that do not match his teachings.

A pure worship of Christmas would not include Santa Clause.

You heard it here first...the Saints were unable to estabish Zion because they couldn't ditch their belief in Santa

I'm interested your 'pure worship of Christmas'. I don't worship a pagan holiday myself, I'm just wondering which pagan elements you retain over the others and why. I guess every single tradition in the world is evil now. If there were fathers and they had a tradition among them - EVIL!

There is much 'doctrinal debris' (as Elder Maxwell put it) around us that we can learn from. There are many beautiful traditions that we in the church celebrate as we should as far as they uplift. I don't believe for a second that anyone in this forum or in the church as a whole puts Santa above Christ in this, our favorite pagan festival. Santa is one of many metaphors, and like the parables that Christ used, pointed toward a higher truth meant to be understood at a later time. I think every day in the Millenium will be like Christmas, and Santa WILL be there. I think St. Nicholas' temple work has been done. So yes, there is a Santa Claus and he's probably good friends with the Savior!

7cylon7 wrote:

5tev3 wrote:A pure worship would not have Christmas at all which isn't a true, pure holy day to begin with.

OPs I reported the last post not quoted it. HA

I agree with this. I just did not want to go tooo far. Christmas may be removed all together for more appropriate holy true days like easter, passover, Feast of the Bride Groom and more.

Ha ha, I know, I know. There is much to anticipate in the Millenium and there is much good to be found hidden deep within all traditions of the earth. I think we can hold to the truth while being like Brigham Young and bringing their truth to unite it with ours.