LDS Freedom Forum

Some comments over the years here made me think of this.

I have heard some say that personal revelation leads to apostasy (Lukeair I think said this, so please correct me if I misunderstood) http://ldsfreedomforum.com/viewtopic.ph ... on#p148033

I have heard people say that they prayed about people to vote for and that the Spirit told them that those people were good, and it has been proven that they were not and are not good.

There is a thread here where someone prayed about some New Age thing and got a "good feeling"

I am sure everyone has seen it or heard of an example of some "personal revelation" that was just so clearly wrong as to be obviously not a revelation from God.

So I'd like to discuss, is personal revelation wrong as I think Lukeair said it was. If it is not always bad, then when is it good, and how do we warn our friends and loved ones when they got bogus revelation. "I got spiritual confirmation" seems to be the trump card people like to pull when logic and reason wont convince them.

Thoughts?

Personal revelation will never conflict with Gospel doctrine and the scriptures. It seems as though the only true last resort with someone is that they spell check against the sacred writ and teachings of the prophets. Personal revelation is more of a personal confirmation rather than a personal "new doctrine".

edit: I would ask them to give you scriptural backing for the direction they are taking and then allow you the same opportunity to show it is contradictory. Then loads of prayer and possibly fasting. Of course we are frail and they may have more to this than we, new revelation to Joseph caused apostasy as well so I really don't have anything definite for you .....sorry

Personal revelation instructing a person to do something, say something, go somewhere, and read or study something cannot, generally, as far as I know, be verified by scriptural backing.

While there are instances where things cannot be answered specifically there is direction in the scriptures. Not to say there are things that will not be spelled out in scripture but if you want to talk to the Lord....pray, if you want Him to speak to you....read the scriptures. There is more in there than one would doubt there is. Otherwise all is lost???? Sad

If all else fails tell them you received personal revelation to stop them

lundbaek wrote:Personal revelation instructing a person to do something, say something, go somewhere, and read or study something cannot, generally, as far as I know, be verified by scriptural backing.

Would personal revelation contradict the written word? I believe it would not. Everything we say and do that is righteouss is found in the scriptures. The scriptures backed Joseph praying to God concerning the salvation of man and which church to join. Christ himself quoted scripture to teach and explain the higher law. Why would anything we seek out to do in righteousness not be found in the Sacred writ? That by itself can be declared to an individual to prove the unrighteouss nature of their actions.

Other ways to interpret the writ.
Is their action based in greed, malice, lust, or has it become a vice to them and does it neglect their stewardships? The list could go on and on.

The scriptures are full of examples of do's and dont's

Does it promote the Fathers will, is it shroweded in charity, does it foster spiritual growth or strengthen families and fall in line with the three fold mission of the Church?

There is always a way to sway a wayward brother or sister and facilitate a chance for them to see their errors. The scriptures are a very effective tool.

no................................................... Moroni 4:5-6

Henmasher wrote: Would personal revelation contradict the written word? I believe it would not.

Unless you're told to cut the head off a helpless drunk.

Why would we need personal revelation to tell us what scripture already has? Do you get up each Sunday praying for personal revelation whether to attend Church?

Some people cannot discern their own thoughts from communications of the Holy Ghost so they get tripped up. It's a learning curve, to be sure.

Then there's always the principle that the Lord gives us what we want.

Mahonri wrote:Some comments over the years here made me think of this.

I have heard some say that personal revelation leads to apostasy (Lukeair I think said this, so please correct me if I misunderstood) http://ldsfreedomforum.com/viewtopic.ph ... on#p148033

So I'd like to discuss, is personal revelation wrong as I think Lukeair said it was. Thoughts?

My only thought is why is it so hard for you to understand what Luke actually posted? You twist his words just like you did with 1/2jamesbond. Did you not read his post or is it a problem comprehending what was written? The basic idea I got was that not all dreams are revelation. Are you suggesting otherwise? I hope so because when I was younger I used to dream that I owned Knight Rider's Kit car, the General Lee and the A-team van . I just checked my garage and all I have is a Tacoma and a Safari . My brother is borrowing my other car but it's a 4 door sedan.
Seriously Mahonri, stop over-analyzing! I can't stand defending Luke

Mahonri wrote: I have heard some say that personal revelation leads to apostasy

I think this is a subtle but real difficulty in the church, and in the lives of some members. I can name a dozen former members who had 'revelations' and now off doing other things. Usually they are crazy things, and that scares people. Brian Mitchel used 'revelations' to justify his actions, so did the Singers/Swapps, Earl LeBaron, and other infamous folks. There are scriptural examples of people being tricked by the devil.

In church history the Saints in Kirkland were having a hard time with knowing where revelations were coming from. And I think that is a real concern for people today. They believe that asking, seeking, knocking works--but question if they will be able to determine the source.

The problem is understanding personal revelation. I believe the relevant quote from Brigham Young is paraphrased "never has revelation been received in perfection." It is given in perfection and interpreted and received always in imperfection. I think that some have progressed in their relationship with the Spirit to the point that they can discern between a smile and a frown, but not much more. Others get very specific counsel. Often in our (Swiss & I) relationship, one will receive an answer or direction and we will discuss it. Often how we interpreted what we were given changes upon reflection and discussion. For instance, Swiss had a distinct impression about being somewhere at a certain time. She interpreted that to mean that when next that time arrived, we would be there. Upon reflection and discussion that was not the case, but rather what was being communicated was an assurance that we would at some future point be at that place at that time. It hasn't happen yet, but very likely will in the next year.

In the examples given what was probably received was counsel that pursuing that course was acceptable to the Lord for whatever reason (voting for the wrong person for the right reasons is acceptable to the Lord despite the person being deceived, because in the end it didn't really matter much to the outcome). Or following the New Age Pyramid Scheme would ultimately teach them humility and patience and make them more wise... I can only guess.

But the way ahead for all of us is clear. We all need to work on our communication skills wherein the Spirit is concerned. I believe that is one of the 3 tests in "A test, a test, a test."

Alma 29:4 I ought not to harrow up in my desires the firm decree of a just God, for I know that he granteth unto men according to their adesire, whether it be unto death or unto life; yea, I know that he allotteth unto men, yea, decreeth unto them decrees which are unalterable, according to their bwills, whether they be unto salvation or unto destruction.

God gave Joseph and Martin what they wanted. Did it turn out the way they thought? No. But they god what they needed to move ahead in their eternal journeys. When we have personal revelation do we get everything we want? No, we usually want an easy life full of uneventfulness. Unfortunately, we don't usually learn in that setting. "Whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth." Can he give revelation that will assist in that chastening? I think so.

Cutting the head off a drunk or fleeing with your family into the wilderness are by far the exception - not to say they can't happen, obviously they do. But typically (at least for me) it is very MUCH a line upon line process. And typically for me I have to prove myself over time and repeatedly at one step before I get to go to the next step.

First it is confirmations that scripture is true, or a small prompting that I should help someone, or do my home teaching. Small but unmistakable things.

Then I may get flashes of insight into a deeper meaning of a scripture or a prophets talk. For me personally, I also start to pick up on other people's thoughts or intentions (I really wished it worked over the internet, alas! I still misunderstand where people are coming from on the web as badly as the next person.) But my personal spiritual gifts start to become more active.

I have had a couple of very amazing experiences (not visitations, or at least not that I could see) but powerful experiences. One in the MTC and one after breaking up with the girl I thought I was supposed to marry. (That was probably the most difficult leap of faith that I didn't want to take - Hardest thing I think I have ever done.)

I know there is a lot that I haven't experienced yet but sure hope I do in this life. I know I am far FAR from being worthy to receive the second comforter, sometimes I am not worthy of the 1st! But that has always been something I hope I experience in mortality!

The important thing about whatever level of personal revelation that we get - it is personal! (or possible for our family or whatever other stewardship we have.) Certainly some things can be shared but certainly questionable doctine - if you are confident in your source then that's great for you, but others may not be ready for it, or the unthinkable! you may be being mislead and by propogating it you are leading others astray and even though it may be an honest mistake - there will be accountability there I think.

Personal revelation is wonderful, but as has been posted on other threads, Satan is very good at imitation - we should make sure our personal revelation is in line with what our prophet and the scriptures are saying. And if we ever get that exceptional "slay the drunk" command, I think we should, as Nephi did, "shrink" that we would not do it and make sure that we are not dealing with an "angel of light" imposter.

sbsion wrote:no................................................... Moroni 4:5-6

Is there more to the sacrament than they are telling us

Mahonri wrote:Some comments over the years here made me think of this.

I have heard some say that personal revelation leads to apostasy (Lukeair I think said this, so please correct me if I misunderstood) http://ldsfreedomforum.com/viewtopic.ph ... on#p148033

I have heard people say that they prayed about people to vote for and that the Spirit told them that those people were good, and it has been proven that they were not and are not good.

There is a thread here where someone prayed about some New Age thing and got a "good feeling"

I am sure everyone has seen it or heard of an example of some "personal revelation" that was just so clearly wrong as to be obviously not a revelation from God.

So I'd like to discuss, is personal revelation wrong as I think Lukeair said it was. If it is not always bad, then when is it good, and how do we warn our friends and loved ones when they got bogus revelation. "I got spiritual confirmation" seems to be the trump card people like to pull when logic and reason wont convince them.

Thoughts?

Just for the record - that's not quite what I said. I said that many people want to receive revelation and then they imagine that they are receiving personal revelation when in fact theyre not. If you're receiving false information or your imagination is running riot then it can be fatal. Real personal revelation is life changing. Real revelation is unmistakable. God confirms to you the authenticity of the revelation. There is no doubt in your mind. You know. Thats why its pretty rare. And you have to be prepared to receive it.

What revelation is it that we're seeking for? God has revealed most of what we need to know for our personal salvation and much more besides. The most common revelation for members of the Church is the confirmation and assurance by the Holy Ghost that what they are being taught is true. Thats not 'new' revelation. That's revelatory confirmation of existing revelation. We are all entitled to receive revelation but it comes with a price.

Paraphrased-"A time to come in which all things will be revealed, if there be one god or many... things never revealed from before the foundation of the world..." There's still a whole lot to come!

One difference that I have noticed is that with false revelation it is usually about the way things are going to BE. A feeling of excitement usually goes with this. Where as true revelation tells me what I have to change to become closer to God. And I don't feel excited about what he wants me to change. Because it is going to be hard.

BrentL wrote:Wo be unto him that shall say: We have received the word of God, and we need no more of the word of God, for we have enough!

SwissMrs&Pitchfire wrote:Paraphrased-"A time to come in which all things will be revealed, if there be one god or many... things never revealed from before the foundation of the world..." There's still a whole lot to come!

BrentL wrote:And these things have I written, which are a lesser part of the things which he taught the people; and I have written them to the intent that they may be brought again unto this people, from the Gentiles, according to the words which Jesus hath spoken.

And when they shall have received this, which is expedient that they should have first, to try their faith, and if it shall so be that they shall believe these things then shall the greater things be made manifest unto them.

And if it so be that they will not believe these things, then shall the greater things be withheld from them, unto their condemnation.

Behold, I was about to write them, all which were engraven upon the plates of Nephi, but the Lord forbade it, saying: I will try the faith of my people.

Great quotes-all! So much to learn!!

One other thing. Lets not pretend that anyone is receiving revelation who is not pure and worthy in every sense. You're not - at least not from God.

"and there was not any man who could do a miracle in the name of Jesus save he were cleansed every whit from his iniquity..." (3 Nephi 8:1)

"And if ye are purified and cleansed from all sin, ye shall ask whatsoever you will in the name of Jesus and it shall be done." (D&C 50:29)

"let virtue garnish thy thoughts unceasingly; then shall thy confidence wax strong in the presence of God; and the doctrine of the priesthood shall distil upon thy soul as the dews from heaven." (D&C 121:45)

"and those who are not pure, and have said they were pure, shall be destroyed, saith the Lord God." (D&C 132:52)

LukeAir2008 wrote:One other thing. Lets not pretend that anyone is receiving revelation who is not pure and worthy in every sense. You're not - at least not from God.

I don't define revelation so narrowly.

One other thing. Lets not pretend that anyone is receiving revelation who is not pure and worthy in every sense. You're not - at least not from God.

I would consider Alma the Younger extremely wicked when he received some pretty important personal revelation

The key to this, in my opinion, is found in D&C 45:

57 For they that are wise and have received the truth, and have taken the Holy Spirit for their guide, and have not been deceived—verily I say unto you, they shall not be hewn down and cast into the fire, but shall abide the day.

Often times I think people think they have revelation, but they are being deceived. The ability to receive revelation is the most important skill we can obtain, however, it is a skill and it requires practice.

In John M. Pontius' book "Following the Light of Christ into His Presence", Pontius explains that we should keep a "small plates" - or a journal of promptings we receive, or think we have received. Then we can go through that at a later time and document the results of our promptings. If we find negative results, we can learn that they were not good promptings - or that we were deceived. Through this process we can hone this most important skill.

Another good discussion on this topic is found in this talk by F. Enzio Busche: http://speeches.byu.edu/reader/reader.p ... 8&x=76&y=8

My wife and I were both asked to speak this coming Sunday on personal revelation. I'm including this statement:

"I’d like to refer briefly to the experience of Oliver Cowdery that led to the 9th Section of the Doctrine and Covenants. You will recall that Oliver’s efforts to translate met with rebuke from the Lord because, as he was told: "Behold, you have not understood; you have supposed that I would give it unto you, when you took no thought save it was to ask me." In my words he was scolded for not doing his homework. The Lord went on to say that "you must study it out in your mind; then you must ask me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you; therefore you shall feel that is right. But if it is not right you shall have no such feelings, but you shall have a stupor of thought that shall cause you to forget the thing which is wrong;". I encountered timely examples of this sort of situation over the last few months in the course of my activities in the political arena. I heard a number of different Latter-day Saints say they prayed and received spiritual direction to vote for a particular candidate, but among them their supposed inspiration led them to vote for different candidates for the same political office. It would almost be amusing if it did not involve so serious a matter. And believe me, that’s one area where in most cases and where possible the homework usually needs to be started years in advance to be reliable."

JulesGP wrote:I had a very wise man tell me one time "Do the hard thing".... meaning the RIGHT thing is often times NOT the easiest or the "best feeling". I think that too often people think that personal revelation means that they are going to get a "good feeling" about something and then they run with that. But personal revelation is also about paying attention to those things that you are prompted to do that you DON'T WANT to do, but that are right. I think it is about truly finding out what the Lord wants and being willing to do it regardless of the answer. Maybe this is over-simplifying the whole thing, but really I think too often people mistake their own excitement or desire to do something as "personal revelation".

I agree with this!! I have had this experience a few times in my life that I can distinctly remember and it was so tough (one involving buying a used car and another involving taking a new job - twice)... but looking back and I have been shown that the best decision, although it was tough, was God's plan and I am thankful I listened to the Spirit. Sometimes I think people over analyze things (and yes I too am guilty to this!!). But personal revelation isn't always involving "good" feelings. It is so very important to truly desire to know God's will no matter what your will is!! This can be tricky but often times when it comes to hard decisions I pray that God will help me recognize what is my will and what is His and having that recognition I will be able to make not only a good decision but the BEST decision.

I have also made decisions that I thought were right and found out later that it probably wasn't and that just gave me an opportunity to know that I need to brush up on listening to the Spirit some more

Truman G. Madsen in his lectures on Joseph Smith mentioned that all would have to be tried as Abraham whether in this life or out of it. I believe that to be true.

Abraham's test was a huge one. In the context of scripture, he spent his life railing against those who sacrificed children. He was so against it that I'm sure he never believed that God could or would ever ask that of him. Imagine how blown away he must have been when asked to do the very thing he had fought against for years.

Sometimes we are asked to do things that we know are wrong and go against every conceivable form of logic we can comprehend. Then is the true test of our allegiance to God and our relationship with the Spirit! That is the Abrahamic test.