LDS Freedom Forum

I have been in the Church for over 50 years and I cant recall one lesson on Grace.

It seems to me that LDS dont really understand the role of Grace. We seem so focus on sins and actually label weaknesses as being sins. In fact, I believe we label all transgressions as sins.

Has anyone read Wendly Ulrich book - Weakness is Not Sin.

HofL

Never read it. Does the author proclaim that the weakness is not the sin, but the succumbing to it is?

Sin is willful disobedience. And results in a loss of the Spirit and a sense of inner guilt.
Black's Law Dictionary defines "willful" - as violating the law intentionally, knowingly and purposely without justifiable excuse.

Weakness does not fit this definition. Weakness does not make us unclean even though it can lead to transgression of the law. These transgression dont necessaryly bring a loss of the Spirit are a sense of inner guilt - maybe frustration, disappointment and discouragement.

I believe that most transgression committed by active LDS are really weaknesses and require God's Grace see Ether 12:27.

Hof L

liberty wrote:I have been in the Church for over 50 years and I cant recall one lesson on Grace.

It seems to me that LDS dont really understand the role of Grace. We seem so focus on sins and actually label weaknesses as being sins. In fact, I believe we label all transgressions as sins.

Has anyone read Wendly Ulrich book - Weakness is Not Sin.

HofL

The greatest guide book to help us understand grace is the Book of Mormon. The whole of the Gospel of Jesus Christ is a gospel of grace. We are saved by grace if we qualify ourselves as Christ has instructed. All gifts come from God because of grace. But that grace was bought at a severe cost - the infinite suffering and agony of Jesus Christ.

Yes I agree most Mormons probably dont understand grace - but then neither do mainstream christians. To believe that you have earned your own salvation is just the reverse side of the coin of the belief that you can be saved unconditionally in your sins.

liberty wrote:Sin is willful disobedience. And results in a loss of the Spirit and a sense of inner guilt.
Black's Law Dictionary defines "willful" - as violating the law intentionally, knowingly and purposely without justifiable excuse.

Weakness does not fit this definition. Weakness does not make us unclean even though it can lead to transgression of the law. These transgression dont necessaryly bring a loss of the Spirit are a sense of inner guilt - maybe frustration, disappointment and discouragement.

I believe that most transgression committed by active LDS are really weaknesses and require God's Grace see Ether 12:27.

Hof L

I am a little confused. So is the doctrine taught by this author say that if you commit a sin because you are weak in that area, it is not a sin? Or is it saying if you unknowingly transgress a law because of your weakness, the mercy of Christ will importune in your behalf?

In my view transgressions (violation of the law without laying judgment) can be categorized accordingly:

Sin - Transgressions due to willful disobedience and require repentance.
Weakness - Transgression due to human vulnerabilities, inadequacies and frailties.
Lack of Resources - Transgression due to lack of time and money.
Iniquities - Transgression passed from prior generations.
Innocence - Transgression committed by those who are not accountable.
Ignorance - Transgression committed by those with no knowledge.
Commands of God - Transgression with full knowledge which bring about a higher good - Adam/Eve, Nephi/Laban.

HofL

NoGreaterLove:

Knowing whether a transgression is a sin or weakness depends on whether you loose the spirit and have a sense of inner guilt. Weakness does not led to sin. To commit sin one must have full knowledge of what the Lord expects and it must be within one capacity to obey.

HofL

My understanding is that grace helps us not only overcome sin but also weakness--see Ether 12:27. It is promised that if we are humble our weaknesses will become strengths. In other words God's grace is not only sufficient for forgiveness but also changing the natural man so that he has no desire to sin, becomes purified and sanctified from sin.

I guess what is confusing me it this. Anytime someone knowingly commits a sin, it is because of inner weakness. So your statements seem to conflict and I am trying to resolve that conflict.
The weakness of the flesh such as lust in and of itself is not a sin. It is the temptation. However if we give in to the temptation of lust and actually lust after a woman than we have sinned. Thus our weakness led to sin.
On the other hand we may be weak in an area that we are not aware of. An area that the Lord in his infinite mercy has not decided to reveal to us at the present time. We transgress the law because of our weakness, not recognizing it as such, so Christ is merciful unto us and his atonement covers the transgression.

pjbrownie wrote:My understanding is that grace helps us not only overcome sin but also weakness--see Ether 12:27. It is promised that if we are humble our weaknesses will become strengths. In other words God's grace is not only sufficient for forgiveness but also changing the natural man so that he has no desire to sin, becomes purified and sanctified from sin.

And does not the Lord say he gives us weakness and also makes us aware of the weaknesses?

NoGreaterLove:

I think we have to separate weakness and sin. Sin is not necessarily caused by inner weakness. Sin is a willful act of disobedience. What defines a sin is whether one loses the spirit and feels that inner guilt.

Do you lose the Spirit if you dont read the scriptures occassionally. Probably not. Or yell at your kids when youre frustrated. Probably not.

We can embrace our humanity!

HofL

liberty wrote:NoGreaterLove:

I think we have to separate weakness and sin. Sin is not necessarily caused by inner weakness. Sin is a willful act of disobedience. What defines a sin is whether one loses the spirit and feels that inner guilt.

Do you lose the Spirit if you dont read the scriptures occassionally. Probably not. Or yell at your kids when youre frustrated. Probably not.

We can embrace our humanity!

HofL

Maybe our definitions of weakness are different. "Sin is a willful act of disobedience". Is not disobedience a weakness?

We can embrace our humanity!

If by humanity you mean the natural man, I totally disagree with this statement. The natural man is an enemy to God. God does not want us embracing his enemies.

NoGreaterLove:

Here is an example where a transgression is a weakness.

Lets say that a person is not reading the scriptures everyday. What is the underlying reason for not reading them. Lets say this person is a poor time manager and allows other important stuff to supercede scripture study. This person is not intentionally and purposely not reading. This would be a weakness and not a sin.

HofL

liberty wrote:NoGreaterLove:

Here is an example where a transgression is a weakness.

Lets say that a person is not reading the scriptures everyday. What is the underlying reason for not reading them. Lets say this person is a poor time manager and allows other important stuff to supercede scripture study. This person is not intentionally and purposely not reading. This would be a weakness and not a sin.

HofL

It might not be a sin for some, but I would feel it was for me. I would need to repent of procrastinating following the prophets admonition to read from the BoM everyday. For some it may just be a transgression because they have not been prompted by the HG to do this yet. In my case I have.
I kind of see what you are saying. We kind of see eye to eye to an extent. But we do have differences of opinions in some matters.

WONDERFUL BOOK!
http://deseretbook.com/Believing-Christ ... /i/4499076

Gave me an even more invigorated desire to seek the atonement! Pretty much the best book I've read that explains the grace element from the LDS perspective.

I would recommended listening to it on audio CD. Gave me tears.

Weaknesses are sins of omission

Sins are of commission

In addition to being clean, Christ still expects us to produce good fruit and that our weaknesses be made strengths. To be in the church and to be worthy of the temple depends on purifying ourselves from specific sins (1 Cor 5:9-13). However, we understand that in the temple be are to put on white clothing which John says is the "Righteousness of the Saints" (Rev 19:8). If we truly accept Christ and receive the Holy Ghost, He will empower us to all good works through His Grace.

The comment by Nephi about "We are saved by grace after all that we can do" doesn't mean we meet God half way or even part way. No man can take even one step towards God without His Grace. In context, Nephi was speaking about why they bothered to keep the Law of Moses, knowing salvation was in Christ. Knowing that Christ gave the Law, Nephi's answer was akin to saying "why ask for 2nds, when we haven't eaten our 1sts". In the same way, the Lord has already given us grace, and doing our part means receiving the grace that God has already given us and then we will be added upon; grace upon grace (John 1:16).

Ether 12:27

And if men come unto me I will show unto them their weakness. I give unto men weakness that they may be humble; and my grace is sufficient for all men that humble themselves before me; for if they humble themselves before me, and have faith in me, then will I make weak things become strong unto them.

I think this is the key. If we are truly humble and willing to repent, our spiritual weaknesses can be made strong through grace. If we know that we have a weakness that is leading to sin and do not work to change it, we have a problem. It takes effort to change, but it can be done because of the Atonement.

Davedan, thank you for your post. Realizing that all we can really do ourselves is accept or reject the Atonement is a key part of learning to be humble, and it is easy to forget it.

davedan wrote:Weaknesses are sins of omission

Sins are of commission

In addition to being clean, Christ still expects us to produce good fruit and that our weaknesses be made strengths. To be in the church and to be worthy of the temple depends on purifying ourselves from specific sins (1 Cor 5:9-13). However, we understand that in the temple be are to put on white clothing which John says is the "Righteousness of the Saints" (Rev 19:8). If we truly accept Christ and receive the Holy Ghost, He will empower us to all good works through His Grace.

The comment by Nephi about "We are saved by grace after all that we can do" doesn't mean we meet God half way or even part way. No man can take even one step towards God without His Grace. In context, Nephi was speaking about why they bothered to keep the Law of Moses, knowing salvation was in Christ. Knowing that Christ gave the Law, Nephi's answer was akin to saying "why ask for 2nds, when we haven't eaten our 1sts". In the same way, the Lord has already given us grace, and doing our part means receiving the grace that God has already given us and then we will be added upon; grace upon grace (John 1:16).

"We are saved by grace after all that we can do" Anybody here know anyone in mortality who has done "all" they can do?

What does "all" consist of?

Bob

I fear most LDS don't put enough emphasis on grace. Not everyone will be saved by grace, but everyone who is will be saved by grace. The scriptures make this clear: Come unto Christ with a broken heart and a contrite spirit and his grace is sufficient for you. That is the definition of "all". That's about all you can do. The best book on this topic is "Believing Christ" by Stephen E. Robinson (not "believe in Christ") but believing that Christ can do what he said he can do and that is save all mankind that truly choose to follow him.

Most LDS I've been around take the doctrine of grace to the nth degree and act negatively about the idea as if it means "I accept Christ and now I can go do what ever I want and I'll be saved" Which is a false doctrine. You working yourself into the Celestial Kingdom is also false doctrine.

Everyone will be saved from death by grace through the power of the resurrection.

wolfman wrote:I fear most LDS don't put enough emphasis on grace. Not everyone will be saved by grace, but everyone who is will be saved by grace. The scriptures make this clear: Come unto Christ with a broken heart and a contrite spirit and his grace is sufficient for you. That is the definition of "all". That's about all you can do. The best book on this topic is "Believing Christ" by Stephen E. Robinson (not "believe in Christ") but believing that Christ can do what he said he can do and that is save all mankind that truly choose to follow him.

Most LDS I've been around take the doctrine of grace to the nth degree and act negatively about the idea as if it means "I accept Christ and now I can go do what ever I want and I'll be saved" Which is a false doctrine. You working yourself into the Celestial Kingdom is also false doctrine. (I agree!)

Everyone will be saved from death by grace through the power of the resurrection.

Please, I would like to understand your definition of "a broken heart" and a "contrite spirit?" What do those terms mean?

Bob

IMO LDS shy away from discussing grace because it sounds too good to be true. Being reluctant to embrace the doctrine of grace is a sign of faithlessness. Rather than define the words broken heart and contrite spirit, I’ll tell you what the concept means to me.

In October General Conference 1999 Neal A Maxwell said something along the lines that the fruit in Lehis vision is the love of God, God’s love is Jesus, so to partake of the love of God is to partake of the atonement.

My thoughts on that:

In order to partake of the atonement you need to be spiritually converted. For many people this spiritual conversion is triggered when they pass through their own personal Gethsemane - some major trial that brings them to their knees and they realize they are nothing without God. Either way the following scriptures teach how someone is converted: Mosiah 5:2-5, Alma 5:12-13, Alma 19:33, Heleman 15:7-9 In a nutshell these scriptures say: People were taught the word of God, exercised faith in the words that were spoken They had a change of heart they had no more desire to sin, the very thought of sin was revolting, they entered into a covenant to obey the commandments and they put their trust in God. I don’t think there is a perfect formula that enables one to come to Christ with a broken heart and contrite spirit. For Enos it took a whole day of prayer. For other people it may take a lifetime to get to that point. My two favorite examples of grace in the scriptures are Alma the younger and King Lamoni. The moment they cried out to Jesus they were saved (spiritually converted)

Faith and humility play vital roles in this process. Many times God gives us opportunities to be humbled so that we initiate this process though our own free will and choice. Once our faith and humility is sufficient he extends his grace to us. That can be a life process or that can be a split second. The opportunity for grace extends into the next life or there would be no point in doing temple work.

wolfman wrote:IMO LDS shy away from discussing grace because it sounds too good to be true. Being reluctant to embrace the doctrine of grace is a sign of faithlessness. Rather than define the words broken heart and contrite spirit, I’ll tell you what the concept means to me.

In October General Conference 1999 Neal A Maxwell said something along the lines that the fruit in Lehis vision is the love of God, God’s love is Jesus, so to partake of the love of God is to partake of the atonement.

My thoughts on that:

In order to partake of the atonement you need to be spiritually converted. For many people this spiritual conversion is triggered when they pass through their own personal Gethsemane - some major trial that brings them to their knees and they realize they are nothing without God. Either way the following scriptures teach how someone is converted: Mosiah 5:2-5, Alma 5:12-13, Alma 19:33, Heleman 15:7-9 In a nutshell these scriptures say: People were taught the word of God, exercised faith in the words that were spoken They had a change of heart they had no more desire to sin, the very thought of sin was revolting, they entered into a covenant to obey the commandments and they put their trust in God. I don’t think there is a perfect formula that enables one to come to Christ with a broken heart and contrite spirit. For Enos it took a whole day of prayer. For other people it may take a lifetime to get to that point. My two favorite examples of grace in the scriptures are Alma the younger and King Lamoni. The moment they cried out to Jesus they were saved (spiritually converted)

Faith and humility play vital roles in this process. Many times God gives us opportunities to be humbled so that we initiate this process though our own free will and choice. Once our faith and humility is sufficient he extends his grace to us. That can be a life process or that can be a split second. The opportunity for grace extends into the next life or there would be no point in doing temple work.

Considering your explanation, I wonder if a "Broken Heart" is the same as a "tamed heart," as in to tame or break a horse? Your examples are of those who were broken the hard way---

I think a "Contrite Spirit" is a "teachable spirit," as is demonstrated by the examples you mention above, and many more examples available to each of us.

Since we all have agency, and always will have agency, some of us ore broken by the whisperings of the Holy Ghost, the rest by other means! Alma and King Lamoni for example, by fear! Lamoni didn't know who this guy Ammon was, was afraid of him! Alma saw a vision of something he didn't believe in--again, fear was demonstrated. Paul, Joseph Smith during the first vision, fear! We understand that God is no respector of persons, what he did for those in your examples, he'll do for you, any of us, in mortality or the Spirit World!

Its wonderful to be able to listen to the sweet small voice of the Spirit, and not experience the fear those men had. However, I admit, I'd be willing to spend my three days in a comatose condition, just to see my Lord again!

Bob

"all" means receive "all" the grace that Christ has already extended to us before asking for more.

The only way we can offer a broken heart and contrite spirit is by the grace of Christ. Christ has empowered this and given us agency and empowered this choice.

So, we must receive the grace that Christ has given and make the choice to give our whole souls unto God.


This does not mean that we can do anything alone without Grace. IT means we have already been extended grace and we must receive it and apply it before being added upon.

Remember that "no one cometh unto the Son save the Father draweth him." See, that is grace that has already or will be extended to all at some point. This is how all men are made free and are made agents to choose.

davedan wrote:"all" means receive "all" the grace that Christ has already extended to us before asking for more.

The only way we can offer a broken heart and contrite spirit is by the grace of Christ. Christ has empowered this and given us agency and empowered this choice.

So, we must receive the grace that Christ has given and make the choice to give our whole souls unto God.


This does not mean that we can do anything alone without Grace. IT means we have already been extended grace and we must receive it and apply it before being added upon.

Remember that "no one cometh unto the Son save the Father draweth him." See, that is grace that has already or will be extended to all at some point. This is how all men are made free and are made agents to choose.

The word "all" mentioned in the post above is in reference to "ALL" mankind; "Christ is the savior of "all" mankind" As mankind, each of us by our agency, accepts the gift of salvation, however long it takes!

Bob