LDS Freedom Forum

ITS ALL GRACE
The whole gospel is grace. Everything is by grace. But here here is where we differ with the Evangelicals. There is the lesser law and the higher law. The lesser law deals with Justification by grace and not by works. This initial salvation or "rescue" is God condescending and snatching us from the jaws of death and hell. The "saved" by grace and not by works "lest we boast" is talking about our initial justification or rescue. I like to replace the word "saved" with "rescue" to clarify what Paul is taking about.

FREE FALL RESCUE
In another sense, all of us when we leave our eternal home and step into this fallen world; take a step off the cliff into spiritual free fall headed straight to hell. Whether we realize we are falling from a cliff or not, the ground is approaching. God is like an Eagle and dive bomb us and in his condescension match our position and speed, and tap us on the shoulder and inform us of our dreadful condition. We are promised that Christ will even bare us up on Eagles wings so that we can stop our free fall. But even though we are no longer falling, we are still a long way from where we started.

JUSTIFICATION (NO WORKS NECESSARY)
After Justification, Christ's righteousness is "imputed" to us and we are "called" clean such that we are enable to receive the holy ghost through the merits of Christ. But just because we are justified and "called" clean doesn't really mean we are clear and ready to return into the presence of the Father. Sure, Christ condescends and hangs out with sinners and publicans and accepts us how we are. But not the Father. The Father is the Man of Holiness, and he permits no unclean thing into his presence. This is why it is imperative to understand the distinctness between the Father and the Son.

HIGHER LAW, COVENANT, PRIESTHOOD
But now that the believer in Christ, can enjoy the presence of "a portion" of the Holy Ghost, if he allows it, the Holy Ghost will work within that person to purify them, and perfect them. This is the higher covenant and higher law and higher gospel. Remember that Paul said in Hebrews that the Levitical Priesthood didn't have the power to make one perfect. (sanctified).

Heb. 7: 11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

SANCTIFICATION (LIFETIME OF WORKS REQUIRED)
And remember the words of Christ to the rich young man who asked what he needed to do to gain eternal life. After reviewing the law and confessing that he had kept the law since he was a boy. The young man asked "what lack I yet" Christ responded, "If thou wilt be perfect" (sanctified) then accept the law of Consecration. (Matt 19;21). So, here the young man had to make a choice, enter into a covenant, and keep that covenant in exchange for the promise of sanctification. Yes, its the power and grace of Christ that empowers the keeping of the covenant and blesses the keeper with the promised sanctification or eventual disposition never to do evil but to do good continually. However, there are a whole lot of consecrating works between here and there which may not end until the end of the Millennium when Christ presents the Sanctified Earth and His sanctified people on it, to His Father.

THE LDS MESSAGE
Unless a person understands the difference between Justification (called clean) and Sanctification (made clean), then I can see why the LDS message may seem peculiar. All LDS who have been baptized have already been rescued. LDS members have already been justified and enjoy the reception of the Holy Ghost. We are already "called clean" through the merits, and mercy, and grace of Jesus Christ. That is water under the bridge. Now the whole LDS message is focused on Sanctification and preparing to receive and keeping the Law of Consecration. The whole focus of the New Testament, Higher Covenant is about "trying a little harder to be a little better." The focus is not trying to save ourselves, or even meet God half way. The focus is on receiving and exercising the grace, spirit, and power that God has already extended to us, and then asking to be added upon--- Grace upon grace and not a fullness at first (John 1).

AFTER ALL WE CAN DO
Again, "Being saved by grace after all we can do" is not talking about meeting God half way or even taking one step toward God by our own power. Nephi is talking about why they bother to keep the Law of Moses knowing salvation is in Christ. But Christ gave the Law, so therefore, Nephi's conclusion is that they will receive what Christ has already given them (1sts) until the time that he gives more (2nds).

GAINING ALTITUDE
After we are Justified and Christ breaks our free fall descent and bares us up on eagles wings. We still have much work to do to get back to our heavenly home. We have lost a lot of altitude. Christ gives us wings to bare us home. Christ teaches us how to fly. Some will look up at the cliff from which we fell, and fix our gaze on a lower perch and settle for a lesser reward. Although, others who put our faith in Christ's flying lessons and the wings we have been given will diligently, persistently, patiently use those wings to return us home again into the presence of the Father from whence we came.

I would recommend that a good resource for understanding the need for grace is in "The Broken Heart" by Bruce C. Hafen. He makes the point that we become like God through a process of receiving grace. We don't simply want someone to pay for our sins so we can have a zero balance on our "sin sheet". We want a divine nature through grace. Grace are gifts usually through the Holy Ghost that change our nature, gives us knowledge, etc. We want to be like God...we become like him through a process of grace. All/many of our negative experiences will help us and are grace as well. We grow from the negative experiences...many times not of our choosing. D&C 93:12 talks about the Savior growing from grace to grace. The atonement is part of the grace process...we try to obey commandments (sincerely), Christ pays for our sins, and we are made perfect in Christ. Since we are perfect, we have a visit from the Holy Ghost which brings with it grace...comfort, knowledge, understanding from our negative experiences, etc. We can be sure that when we feel the Holy Ghost, we are acceptable to God....everytime. We need to take the Holy Ghost to be our guide.

Dr. Wendy Ulrich from Weakness is Not Sin:

"The crucial point to be made is that the endless list of our weaknesses may frustrate us. but these weaknesses do not make us unclean. Weakness by itself does not make us unworthy to associate with the Holy Ghost, receive answers to our prayers, partake of the sacrament, or ask for help. Despite the messages we get from society and ourselves, weakness is not a cause for shame or guilt, only a cause for meekness, learning, and effort. Weakness is a gift from God to help us learn the humility, faith, and charity that will bring us closer to sitting down with Him."

HofL

Lovely, let's discuss what the scriptures and prophets say.

27 And if men come unto me I will show unto them their weakness. I give unto men weakness that they may be humble; and my grace is sufficient for all men that humble themselves before me; for if they humble themselves before me, and have faith in me, then will I make weak things become strong unto them.

Some say that weakness is the cause of sin. This scripture then would make god responsible for sin. We then can blame god for our sins.

HoL

pjbrownie wrote:Lovely, let's discuss what the scriptures and prophets say.

You go ahead and get started PJ, we've got plenty of time----since when do opinions not matter?

Bob

Reposted for a Reply

Ether 12:27 And if men come unto me I will show unto them their weakness. I give unto men weakness that they may be humble; and my grace is sufficient for all men that humble themselves before me; for if they humble themselves before me, and have faith in me, then will I make weak things become strong unto them.

Some say that weakness is the cause of sin. This scripture then would make god responsible for sin. We then can blame god for our sins.

HoL

liberty wrote:Reposted for a Reply

Ether 12:27 And if men come unto me I will show unto them their weakness. I give unto men weakness that they may be humble; and my grace is sufficient for all men that humble themselves before me; for if they humble themselves before me, and have faith in me, then will I make weak things become strong unto them.

Some say that weakness is the cause of sin. This scripture then would make god responsible for sin. We then can blame god for our sins.

HoL

Does "your" supposition (Some say---) remove our agency?

Bob

Just a couple of quick thoughts...

The scriptures in Ether says:

And if men come unto me I will show unto them their weakness. I give unto men weakness that they may be humble; and my grace is sufficient for all men that humble themselves before me; for if they humble themselves before me, and have faith in me, then will I make weak things become strong unto them.

In context, there are references to weakness in writing and weakness in charity but the word weakness is used exclusively in the singular. God gave all men weakness - a state or condition of being weak. That condition is called mortality. If we come to Him, His grace will make overcome that weak condition. This is why surrounding verses indicate that His grace is sufficient for the meek and that eventually all Gentiles will see their own weakness (i.e. come to understand their lost and fallen state) and know that faith, hope, and charity, draw them to God - the fountain of all righteousness (v.28).

While we can read this verse to mean His grace is sufficient to overcome individual flaws, faults, and tendencies, (and certainly it is!) the overarching message, IMO, is about recognizing that we have fallen and need Christ to redeem us.

...and the other thought...

the verse in 2 Ne 25 about being saved by grace after all we can do is in the context of keeping the law of Moses. It's about the fact that Nephi wants his descendants to know that the law of Moses which they are living is only a type and shadow of the real path to salvation. He is saying that the ordinances of the old law are symbolic, ritualistic, and that Nephi knows this. He wants his children to know it. He wannts them to look forward with a steadfast hope in that Christ which is to come! And he worries with good reason. Some later struggle to abandon the Mosaic law.

bobhenstra
No this does not remove agency. We have an obligation to overcome weaknesses this is one way Christ makes weak things strong. I had a Bishop who used to say - let your weaknesses perfect you.

MercynGrace
God did not bring us into mortality - Adam did that. So the weakness spoken of in Ether 12:27 can not be mortality. God set up situations in our lives that created character flaws that we must overcome which help us become perfected if we strive to overcome them.

To say every mistake and error we make in ours lives is a sin is just wrong. It is a kin to rejecting our humanity - rejecting ourselves. Plus it does not fit the definition of sin - willful disobedience - losing the spirit - having a sense of inner guilt.

HofL

liberty,
I didn't say that God brought us into mortality. I said He gave us the condition of weakness. I do not think the Fall was accidental. Yes, it came into the world by Adam, but I believe it was always a part of God's plan.

Also, I'm not sure how you extrapolated from my comment that every error we make is a sin. I don't believe that and I never said it.???
MnG

PS If I understand the premise of the book as you're describing it, I actually agree with you. We can't have accountability without knowledge. We can't sin without accountability. That's right out of 2 Nephi 2. And as Joseph Smith indicated much of what we think is sin, is not.

Found the quote...
What many people call sin is not sin; I do many things to break down superstition, and I will break it down.
Joseph Smith, Jr.

bobhenstra wrote:Please, I would like to understand your definition of "a broken heart" and a "contrite spirit?" What do those terms mean?

Bob

A Broken Heart means essentially a "Covenant Heart." In ancient times when a blood covenant was "struck" the two parties would "cut" themselves as a symbol of the covenant. Usually the cut was on the hand or wrist, and both parties made the exact same cut. The cut, sign, or token of the Abrahamic Covenant was circumcision. "The word "circumcision" comes from Latin circum (meaning "around") and cædere (meaning "to cut")." The Lord had Abraham "divide," or cut, the animals in half. All of these practices were common in ancient rituals. Captain Moroni, cut or rent the title of liberty, the people rent their garments. The Lord finished the covenant made with Abraham with His heart literally Breaking on the cross. From Jesus the Christ we read...

8. The Physical Cause of Christ's Death.—While, as stated in the text, the yielding up of life was voluntary on the part of Jesus Christ, for He had life in Himself and no man could take His life except as He willed to allow it to be taken, (John 1:4; 5:26; 10:15-18) there was of necessity a direct physical cause of dissolution. As stated also the crucified sometimes lived for days upon the cross, and death resulted, not from the infliction of mortal wounds, but from internal congestion, inflammations, organic disturbances, and consequent exhaustion of vital energy. Jesus, though weakened by long torture during the preceding night and early morning, by the shock of the crucifixion itself, as also by intense mental agony, and particularly through spiritual suffering such as no other man has ever endured, manifested surprizing vigor, both of mind and body, to the last. The strong, loud utterance, immediately following which He bowed His head and "gave up the ghost", when considered in connection with other recorded details, points to a physical rupture of the heart as the direct cause of death. If the soldier's spear was thrust into the left side of the Lord's body and actually penetrated the heart, the outrush of "blood and water" observed by John is further evidence of a cardiac rupture; for it is known that in the rare instances of death resulting from a breaking of any part of the wall of the heart, blood accumulates within the pericardium, and there undergoes a change by which the corpuscles separate as a partially clotted mass from the almost colorless, watery serum. Similar accumulations of clotted corpuscles and serum occur within the pleura. Dr. Abercrombie of Edinburgh, as cited by Deems (Light of the Nations, p. 682), "gives a case of the sudden death of a man aged seventy-seven years, owing to a rupture of the heart. In his case 'the cavities of the pleura contained about three pounds of fluid, but the lungs were sound.'" Deems also cites the following instance : "Dr. Elliotson relates the case of a woman who died suddenly. 'On opening the body the pericardium was found distended with elear serum, and a very large coagulum of blood, which had escaped through a spontaneous rupture of the aorta near its origin, without any other morbid appearance.' Many cases might be cited, but these suffice." For detailed treatment of the subject the student may be referred to Dr. Wm. Stroud's work On the Physical Cause of the Death of Christ. Great mental stress, poignant emotion either of grief or joy, and intense spiritual struggle arc among the recognized causes of heart rupture.
The present writer believes that the Lord Jesus died of a broken heart. The psalmist sang in dolorous measure according to his inspired prevision of the Lord's passion : "Reproach hath broken my heart; and I am full of heaviness: and I looked for some to take pity, but there was none; and for comforters, but I found none. They gave me also gall for my meat; and in my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink." (Psalm 69:20, 21; see also 22:14.)

2 Nephi 9:33 Wo unto the uncircumcised of heart, for a knowledge of their iniquities shall smite them at the last day.
Helaman 9:21 But Nephi said unto them: O ye fools, ye uncircumcised of heart, ye blind, and ye stiffnecked people, do ye know how long the Lord your God will suffer you that ye shall go on in this your way of sin?

We have similar venacular still this day... "Let me cut you a deal" or "give me a break" ... The Lord cuts a new deal every Sabbath, and we break bread in rememberance of His broken body, and His precious blood.

Hymn 181 | Jesus of Nazareth, Savior and King
"2. While of this broken bread
Humbly we eat,
Our thoughts to thee are led
In rev’rence sweet.
Bruised, broken, torn for us
On Calvary’s hill—
Thy suff’ring borne for us
Lives with us still."

Hymn 185 | Reverently and meekly now
"2. In this bread now blest for thee,
Emblem of my body see;
In this water or this wine,
Emblem of my blood divine.
Oh, remember what was done
That the sinner might be won.
On the cross of Calvary
I have suffered death for thee."

Take time and read through the Scrament Hymns... it's worth it. Sometimes I read them during Sacrament... always something to learn. A Broken Heart is a Covenant Heart. Do you come to Christ willing to renew the deal? Renew the Covenant, He's willing to cut you a new deal.

clarkkent14 wrote:

bobhenstra wrote:Please, I would like to understand your definition of "a broken heart" and a "contrite spirit?" What do those terms mean?

Bob

A Broken Heart means essentially a "Covenant Heart." In ancient times when a blood covenant was "struck" the two parties would "cut" themselves as a symbol of the covenant. Usually the cut was on the hand or wrist, and both parties made the exact same cut. The cut, sign, or token of the Abrahamic Covenant was circumcision. "The word "circumcision" comes from Latin circum (meaning "around") and cædere (meaning "to cut")." The Lord had Abraham "divide," or cut, the animals in half. All of these practices were common in ancient rituals. Captain Moroni, cut or rent the title of liberty, the people rent their garments. The Lord finished the covenant made with Abraham with His heart literally Breaking on the cross. From Jesus the Christ we read...

8. The Physical Cause of Christ's Death.—While, as stated in the text, the yielding up of life was voluntary on the part of Jesus Christ, for He had life in Himself and no man could take His life except as He willed to allow it to be taken, (John 1:4; 5:26; 10:15-18) there was of necessity a direct physical cause of dissolution. As stated also the crucified sometimes lived for days upon the cross, and death resulted, not from the infliction of mortal wounds, but from internal congestion, inflammations, organic disturbances, and consequent exhaustion of vital energy. Jesus, though weakened by long torture during the preceding night and early morning, by the shock of the crucifixion itself, as also by intense mental agony, and particularly through spiritual suffering such as no other man has ever endured, manifested surprizing vigor, both of mind and body, to the last. The strong, loud utterance, immediately following which He bowed His head and "gave up the ghost", when considered in connection with other recorded details, points to a physical rupture of the heart as the direct cause of death. If the soldier's spear was thrust into the left side of the Lord's body and actually penetrated the heart, the outrush of "blood and water" observed by John is further evidence of a cardiac rupture; for it is known that in the rare instances of death resulting from a breaking of any part of the wall of the heart, blood accumulates within the pericardium, and there undergoes a change by which the corpuscles separate as a partially clotted mass from the almost colorless, watery serum. Similar accumulations of clotted corpuscles and serum occur within the pleura. Dr. Abercrombie of Edinburgh, as cited by Deems (Light of the Nations, p. 682), "gives a case of the sudden death of a man aged seventy-seven years, owing to a rupture of the heart. In his case 'the cavities of the pleura contained about three pounds of fluid, but the lungs were sound.'" Deems also cites the following instance : "Dr. Elliotson relates the case of a woman who died suddenly. 'On opening the body the pericardium was found distended with elear serum, and a very large coagulum of blood, which had escaped through a spontaneous rupture of the aorta near its origin, without any other morbid appearance.' Many cases might be cited, but these suffice." For detailed treatment of the subject the student may be referred to Dr. Wm. Stroud's work On the Physical Cause of the Death of Christ. Great mental stress, poignant emotion either of grief or joy, and intense spiritual struggle arc among the recognized causes of heart rupture.
The present writer believes that the Lord Jesus died of a broken heart. The psalmist sang in dolorous measure according to his inspired prevision of the Lord's passion : "Reproach hath broken my heart; and I am full of heaviness: and I looked for some to take pity, but there was none; and for comforters, but I found none. They gave me also gall for my meat; and in my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink." (Psalm 69:20, 21; see also 22:14.)

2 Nephi 9:33 Wo unto the uncircumcised of heart, for a knowledge of their iniquities shall smite them at the last day.
Helaman 9:21 But Nephi said unto them: O ye fools, ye uncircumcised of heart, ye blind, and ye stiffnecked people, do ye know how long the Lord your God will suffer you that ye shall go on in this your way of sin?

We have similar venacular still this day... "Let me cut you a deal" or "give me a break" ... The Lord cuts a new deal every Sabbath, and we break bread in rememberance of His broken body, and His precious blood.

Hymn 181 | Jesus of Nazareth, Savior and King
"2. While of this broken bread
Humbly we eat,
Our thoughts to thee are led
In rev’rence sweet.
Bruised, broken, torn for us
On Calvary’s hill—
Thy suff’ring borne for us
Lives with us still."

Hymn 185 | Reverently and meekly now
"2. In this bread now blest for thee,
Emblem of my body see;
In this water or this wine,
Emblem of my blood divine.
Oh, remember what was done
That the sinner might be won.
On the cross of Calvary
I have suffered death for thee."

Take time and read through the Scrament Hymns... it's worth it. Sometimes I read them during Sacrament... always something to learn. A Broken Heart is a Covenant Heart. Do you come to Christ willing to renew the deal? Renew the Covenant, He's willing to cut you a new deal.

And a covenant heart is a tamed heart!

Bob