Optimism vs. Pessimism

[JMarsigli]

This is a spinoff from another thread.

A pessimist would focus on the destruction...an optimist would focus on what happens right afterward...

I find this a false pretense, and it seems the majority of pessimism flows from this personal interpretation of 2nd coming events. We don't actually know what will happen. Revelations is highly symbolic, Daniel is "locked up" so to speak. I don't see looking at impending destruction of this nation as optimistic at all.

I'll offer you this collection and see if you change your POV.

Howard W. Hunter on Joseph S. Smith:

The Prophet Joseph Smith faced immense difficulties in his life and paid the ultimate price for his victory. But he was victorious, and he was a happy, robust, optimistic man. Those who knew him felt his strength and courage, even in the darkest of time. He did not sag in spirits or long remain in any despondency.

He said about our time—yours and mine—that ours is the moment “upon which prophets, priests and kings [in ages past] have dwelt with peculiar delight; [all these ancient witnesses for God] have looked forward with joyful anticipation to the day in which we live; and fired with heavenly and joyful anticipations they have sung and written and prophesied of this our day. … we are the favored people that God has [chosen] to bring about the Latter-day glory” (History of the Church, 4:609–10).

The ancient prophets saw us as “favored people” upon whom God would shower his full and complete latter-day glory, and I testify that is our destiny. What a privilege! What an honor! What a responsibility! And what joy! We have every reason to give thanks for the quality of our lives and the promises we have been given.

http://lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideN ... 82620aRCRD

Is it possible we're too negative on the Savior's work then? What are all these prophets seeing that is so wonderful? Maybe the Lord's work is more beautiful than we could ever imagine. I'm sure you're skeptical, so read on.

Harold B. Lee, copied from earlier here:

"It is so easy to clamber onto the bandwagon and to join the extremists in condemnation, little realizing that when they commit their actions, they are not just tearing down a man; they are tearing down a nation, and they are striking at the underpinnings of one of the greatest of all the nations of all the world—a nation that was founded upon an inspired declaration we call the Constitution of the United States."

". . . We should not be concerned about finding out what is wrong with America, but we should be finding what is right about America and should be speaking optimistically and enthusiastically about America." (Ye Are the Light of the World 341-42)

"We are living in a time of great crisis. The country is torn with scandal and with criticism, with faultfinding and condemnation. There are those who have downgraded the image of this nation as probably never before in the history of the country. It is so easy to clamber onto the bandwagon and to join the extremists in condemnation, little realizing that when they commit their actions, they are not just tearing down a man; they are tearing down a nation, and they are striking at the underpinnings of one of the greatest of all the nations of all the world—a nation that was founded upon an inspired declaration we call the Constitution of the United States. The Lord said it was written by men whom He raised up for that very purpose, and that Constitution stands today as a model to all nations to pattern their lives" (Ye Are the Light of the World 340)

"I plead with you not to preach pessimism. Preach that this is the greatest country in all the world. This is the favored land. This is the land of our forefathers. It is the nation that will stand despite whatever trials or crises it may yet have to pass through." (Ye Are the Light of the World 350-51)

Are we looking at impending national doom (with optimism), or should we look to constantly oppose the constant forces of hell and earth against the US, and seek to always restore the nation? Are we supposed to be optimistic about it's doom and what comes after? Or that it will not fail as has been prophesied?

Moving forward to Howard W. Hunter:

I hope you won’t believe all the world’s difficulties have been wedged into your decade. I reassure you that things have been worse and they will always get better—especially when we live the gospel of Jesus Christ and give it a chance to flourish in our lives...

I promise you in the name of the Lord, whose servant I am, that God will always protect and care for his people. We will have our difficulties the way every generation and people have had difficulties. Your life in the 1990s is no different than any young person’s life has been in any age of time. But with the gospel of Jesus Christ you have every hope, promise, and reassurance. The Lord has power over his Saints and will always prepare places of peace, defense and safety for his people. The prophet Ether taught anciently (and he knew something about troubles): “Wherefore, whoso believeth in God might with surety hope for a better world, yea, even a place at the right hand of God, which hope cometh of faith, maketh an anchor to the souls of men, which would make them sure and steadfast, always abounding in good works, being led to glorify God” (Ether 12:4).

President Hinckley

What I am suggesting is that each of us turn from the negativism that spreads through our society and look for the remarkable good among those with whom we associate, that we speak of one another’s virtues more than we speak of one another’s faults, that optimism replace pessimism, that our faith exceed our fears. When I was a young man and was inclined to speak critically of people or events, my father would say: “Pessimists do not contribute, unbelievers do not create, doubters do not achieve.”

How do we save a nation while looking for it [with optimism] to fail?

Looking at the dark side of things always leads to a spirit of pessimism which so often leads to defeat. If ever there was a man who gave encouragement to a nation in its time of deepest distress it was British Prime Minister Winston Churchill. It was during World War II. Bombs were falling on London, England. Nazi troops had conquered Austria, Czechoslovakia, France, Belgium, Holland, Norway, and were moving into Russia. Most of Europe was in the grasp of tyranny, and England was to be the next victim. In that dangerous hour, when the hearts of many were failing, Churchill spoke:

“Do not let us speak of darker days; let us speak rather of sterner days. These are not dark days: these are great days—the greatest days our country has ever lived; and we must all thank God that we have been allowed, each of us according to our position in life, to play a part in making these days memorable in the history of our race.” (Address at Harrow School, England, 29 October 1941.)

A year earlier, following the terrible military disaster at Dunkirk, France, when Britain tried to invade Europe and beat back the enemy, many prophets of doom foretold the end of Britain. But in that dark and solemn hour this remarkable man, Churchill, said, and I heard him say these words as they were broadcast to the world: “We shall not weaken or fail … we shall fight in France, we shall fight on the seas and oceans, we shall fight with growing confidence and growing strength in the air, we shall defend our island, whatever the cost may be, we shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender.” (Speech in British Parliament, London, England, 4 June 1940.)

It was this kind of talk, which saw victory distantly through the dark clouds of war, and not the critical faultfinding of pessimists, that preserved the people of Britain and saved that nation from catastrophe.

Why was President Hinckley telling us optimism saved Britian? What can we learn? And why does President Hinckley keep referring to them as prophets of doom and gloom?

http://lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideN ... 82620aRCRD

President Monson recently spoke of Gratitude, but this isn't new from him. He seems to be going to a more basic message. Maybe the words of President Hunter and Hinckley were too much for us. In 1992, An Attitude of Gratitude

This is a wonderful time to be living here on earth. Our opportunities are limitless. While there are some things wrong in the world today, there are many things right, such as teachers who teach, ministers who minister, marriages that make it, parents who sacrifice, and friends who help.

We can lift ourselves, and others as well, when we refuse to remain in the realm of negative thought and cultivate within our hearts an attitude of gratitude. If ingratitude be numbered among the serious sins, then gratitude takes its place among the noblest of virtues.

The essence of this message was repeated in 2005, in First Presidency Message The Profound Power of Gratitude. The message was repeated for at least the third time this last general conference:

We can lift ourselves, and others as well, when we refuse to remain in the realm of negative thought and cultivate within our hearts an attitude of gratitude,"

Here negative thought and gratitude are linked as opposites.

I'll conclude by covering the wise words of Prophet Benson:

I testify to you that God’s hand has been in our destiny. I testify that freedom as we know it today is being threatened as never before in our history. I further witness that this land—the Americas—must be protected, its Constitution upheld, for this is a land foreordained to be the Zion of our God. He expects us as members of the Church and bearers of His priesthood to do all we can to preserve our liberty.

How does being a prophet of impending doom, not only doubting the possibility of recovery but preaching this time it is not, and posting nothing but pessimistic indicators help to preserve liberty? It doesn't. It assists the devils cause by influencing others to give up optimism and trade it in for the devil's pessimism. He said we couldn't and would not work. Christ said it will.

Optimism is a wonderful tool and a blessing. Maybe it is all we need to save the constitution. Pessimism scares ous from reaching their full potential. It keep us from helping others. symbolically, it leads us to bury our slippery gold inside the earth, where it does nothing to better our situation or help mankind improve. Pessimism buries our talents inside and keeps us from making the most of the gifts God has given us.

This is the greatest nation on earth and it will not fail.

Carpe Diem!

[Mark]

I admire your spunk JMarsigli but you are like a Jehovahs Witness standing up in front of a group of missionaries testifying that the JW's belong to the only true and living church upon the face of the earth.

Paradigms here on this site are firmly established and immovable. They are fully invested. It doesn't really matter what you say or who you quote it will be processed by others to fit within that paradigm an individual has established for themselves.

I guess we all do that to some degree or another. It just becomes more pronounced in certain subjects. Politics and Secret combinations are one of those subjects. It's an all or nothing deal.

Either one believes in the prevailing paradigm that its all going to he!! in a handbasket soon or they are labeled a troll/traitor. You have been labeled a troll for questioning the prevailing paradigm for this board.

I personally find that harsh and close-minded to a large degree but it is what it is. I may not agree with someone like yourself who does not always share my own ideas but in all fairness I should not demonize them for having alternative ideas either. Come let us reason together in respect and love is the method the Lord encourages us to follow.

Unfortunately on this forum that does not seem to be the way things work out. Such is life in the big city. It is what it is. At least you get some blood pumping.

[natasha]

Hallelujah and amen!!!

[Mark]

Hallelujah and amen!!!

Please stop Natasha! The Col is already functionally insane because of the jealousy he has developed as a result of you liking me more than him. Please patch things up with the old boy for the good of the family and stop agreeing with me so much. He is in a fragile state of mind and this kind of thing may just push him over the edge completely. Just look at what you have driven him to become..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QMz_RQuT ... re=related

[pjbrownie]

I guess I just want to make sure you're not saying that pessimism = studying and discussing end times prophecy or being diligent at finding the truth about our "awful situation" as described in Ether 8. Hammering on those two keys incessantly is problematic, but it's also necessary for us to secure our freedom and be prepared for what is to come. Faith in gospel principles, charity, hope, kindness, obedience, etc. are all precursors. Without the attributes of the gospel, these first two things become hobbies for the grumpy.

There is much to optimistic about the future, including the redemption of Zion, the establishment of New Jerusalem, basically the 10th article of faith.

[pjbrownie]

I find this a false pretense, and it seems the majority of pessimism flows from this personal interpretation of 2nd coming events. We don't actually know what will happen. Revelations is highly symbolic, Daniel is "locked up" so to speak. I don't see looking at impending destruction of this nation as optimistic at all.

If you study them, the do open up quite a lot. The Lord does reward for diligent study, but I do agree there are many mysteries in them that will not be unlocked until right before the end, but let's also not discount them. They are scripture. Reading the Book of Mormon, 2 and 3 Nephi for example, the book of Isaiah, can help us unlock the destiny of the Gentiles, the Saints, and Zion. So does the D&C and other modern statements from prophets and apostles. I think this is the best place to start if you want to understand the destiny the Lord has for His children. Even Nephi was told that the Revelations of John would come later--so if we keep that in perspective, we are on sound footing.

I also think that the wickedness of the Nephite government right before Christ comes is typologically indicative of our own--it was written for our day. It isn't always wicked, sometimes there are good chief justices. The principles of the government, ie, judges, are sound and righteous. We see, however, that Satan does try to built up secret combinations to tear down our freedoms. America is not insulated from this threat.

[fps.sledge]

Optimism that ignores realism is not optimism. It's more of a form is denial or arrogance.

Obviously optimism more of a positive attribute than pessimism, although I've seem people who only 'act' like they're optimistic, and do nothing to achieve the results the hope to. Maybe this is more like pessimism.

A real optimist is one who recognizes and acknowledges problems (or anything negative) and solves them. It's almost like faith. Without works, it's dead.

I have a problem with people who refuse to acknowledge problems or failures with the illusion that they're being 'optimistic'. I've came across too many.

[natasha]

Hallelujah and amen!!!

Please stop Natasha! The Col is already functionally insane because of the jealousy he has developed as a result of you liking me more than him. Please patch things up with the old boy for the good of the family and stop agreeing with me so much. He is in a fragile state of mind and this kind of thing may just push him over the edge completely. Just look at what you have driven him to become..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QMz_RQuT ... re=related

Dang...he's going to be ticked...you outed him!

[Mosby]

This is the greatest nation on earth and it will not fail.

No it's not, The Kingdom of God is the greatest Nation on the earth- as restored and established by Joseph Smith jr.

Our "great Nation" will fall, prophecy after prophecy foretell this- our nation will only be saved IF the people repent and turn to God, I don't see that happening.

Not to mention the whole Book Of Mormon thing- it was written for us- did their great nation fail? Yes- why Wickedness and pride- are we on the same course - YES.

It has to fall as it is too wicked- then after the fall it is redeemed.

Also God loves ALL his children - in ALL countries, don't make the mistake of thinking that America is so far above every other nation- it's not anymore because of it's wickedness.

God's "Nation" is the Kingdom Of God- and all are welcome- not just Americans

Or am I just being Pessimistic?

[Jason]

I find this a false pretense, and it seems the majority of pessimism flows from this personal interpretation of 2nd coming events. We don't actually know what will happen. Revelations is highly symbolic, Daniel is "locked up" so to speak. I don't see looking at impending destruction of this nation as optimistic at all.

It only stays "locked up" if you don't study it and search for the keys. Actually a great deal of work has gone into this study but unfortunately most are not LDS and don't have the full picture. Angel Palmoni has some great data (time outlines) that put the prophesies in place with regard to historical events (for example fall of the Roman empire in 1805). And in the Prophet Joseph Smith's own words, from the Saturday afternoon conference address in April 1843, concerning the matter -

Christ says no man knoweth the day or the hour when the Son of Man cometh. This is a sweeping argument for sectarianism against Latter day ism. Did Christ speak this as a general principle throughout all generations Oh no he spoke in the present tense no man that was then liveing upon the footstool of God knew the day or the hour But he did not say that there was no man throughout all generations that should not know the day or the hour. No for this would be in flat contradiction with other scripture for the prophet says that God will do nothing but what he will reveal unto his Servants the prophets consequently if it is not made known to the Prophets it will not come to pass;

again we find Paul 1st Thesslonians 5th Chapter expressly points out the characters who shall not know the day nor the hour when the Son of Man cometh for says he it will come upon them as theif or unawares. Who are they they are the children of darkness or night. But to the Saints he says yea are not of the night nor of darkness of that that day should come upon you unawares. John the revelator says 14 chap 7th verse that the hour of his judgements is come they are precursers or forerunners of the comeing of Christ. read Matthew 24 Chap and all the Prophets.

He says then shall they see the Sign of the domeing of the Son of Man in the clouds of Heaven. How are we to see it Ans. As the lighting up of the morning or the dawning of the morning cometh from the east and shineth unto the west--So also is the comeing of the Son of Man. The dawning of the Morning makes its appearance in the east and moves along gradualy so also will the comeing of the Son of Man be. it will be small at its first appearance and gradually becomes larger untill every eye shall see it. Shall the Saints understand it Oh yes. Paul says so. Shall the wicked understand Oh no they attribute it to a naturn cause. They will probably suppose it is two great comets comeing in contact with each other

¶ It will be small at first and will grow larger and larger untill it will be all in a blaze so that every eye shall see it. Joseph Smith the Prophet.

http://www.boap.org/LDS/Parallel/1843/6 ... 9.html#N_3_

This sermon indirectly references Amos 3:7. Anyways its neither here nor there......people are people with all their biases, paradigms, belief systems, etc.....myself included of course.

FYI - Roger K. Young has put a great deal of effort and study into constructing a chain of events that's worth looking at and studying imo.

Is it possible we're too negative on the Savior's work then? What are all these prophets seeing that is so wonderful? Maybe the Lord's work is more beautiful than we could ever imagine. I'm sure you're skeptical, so read on.

I have a hard time narrowing the Savior's work to ignoring volumes of prophecy concerning our day and the rampant wickedness we are experiencing.

Are we looking at impending national doom (with optimism), or should we look to constantly oppose the constant forces of hell and earth against the US, and seek to always restore the nation? Are we supposed to be optimistic about it's doom and what comes after? Or that it will not fail as has been prophesied?

That sounds fine and dandy until one takes into account the timing of those particular statements. How can you restore something if you refuse to recognize what's broken? I've gone the rounds with several here and have yet to see an effective course of action recommended outside of preaching the gospel. What's yours? So far all you've emphasized is ignoring what is staring us in the face!

How do we save a nation while looking for it [with optimism] to fail?

What do you hope to save? How do you propose to save it?

Looking at the dark side of things always leads to a spirit of pessimism which so often leads to defeat. If ever there was a man who gave encouragement to a nation in its time of deepest distress it was British Prime Minister Winston Churchill. It was during World War II. Bombs were falling on London, England. Nazi troops had conquered Austria, Czechoslovakia, France, Belgium, Holland, Norway, and were moving into Russia. Most of Europe was in the grasp of tyranny, and England was to be the next victim. In that dangerous hour, when the hearts of many were failing, Churchill spoke:

“Do not let us speak of darker days; let us speak rather of sterner days. These are not dark days: these are great days—the greatest days our country has ever lived; and we must all thank God that we have been allowed, each of us according to our position in life, to play a part in making these days memorable in the history of our race.” (Address at Harrow School, England, 29 October 1941.)

A year earlier, following the terrible military disaster at Dunkirk, France, when Britain tried to invade Europe and beat back the enemy, many prophets of doom foretold the end of Britain. But in that dark and solemn hour this remarkable man, Churchill, said, and I heard him say these words as they were broadcast to the world: “We shall not weaken or fail … we shall fight in France, we shall fight on the seas and oceans, we shall fight with growing confidence and growing strength in the air, we shall defend our island, whatever the cost may be, we shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender.” (Speech in British Parliament, London, England, 4 June 1940.)

It was this kind of talk, which saw victory distantly through the dark clouds of war, and not the critical faultfinding of pessimists, that preserved the people of Britain and saved that nation from catastrophe.

You should study up on Operation Keelhaul then your perspective of Churchill might change a bit and you would see his comments in an entirely different light!

Plenty of speeches have been given by silver tongued devils to convince folks into pushing their agenda! Even some speeches by not so silver tongued devils....for example the "war on terror" & "axis of evil" speeches that have killed several million innocent people!

Why was President Hinckley telling us optimism saved Britian? What can we learn? And why does President Hinckley keep referring to them as prophets of doom and gloom?

Good question......why?

This is a wonderful time to be living here on earth. Our opportunities are limitless. While there are some things wrong in the world today, there are many things right, such as teachers who teach, ministers who minister, marriages that make it, parents who sacrifice, and friends who help.

We can lift ourselves, and others as well, when we refuse to remain in the realm of negative thought and cultivate within our hearts an attitude of gratitude. If ingratitude be numbered among the serious sins, then gratitude takes its place among the noblest of virtues.

Who expressed ingratitude? Who is saying we can't reap the blessings of being righteous? Or avoiding some of the pitfalls and calamities by being righteous?

Appears....for whatever that's worth.....that you are reading far more into statements or opinions than was ever intended. Unless of course you are saying the wicked will escape judgment and we will willy nilly avoid all calamities if we just think positively.

Here negative thought and gratitude are linked as opposites.

I'll conclude by covering the wise words of Prophet Benson:

I testify to you that God’s hand has been in our destiny. I testify that freedom as we know it today is being threatened as never before in our history. I further witness that this land—the Americas—must be protected, its Constitution upheld, for this is a land foreordained to be the Zion of our God. He expects us as members of the Church and bearers of His priesthood to do all we can to preserve our liberty.

How does being a prophet of impending doom, not only doubting the possibility of recovery but preaching this time it is not, and posting nothing but pessimistic indicators help to preserve liberty? It doesn't. It assists the devils cause by influencing others to give up optimism and trade it in for the devil's pessimism. He said we couldn't and would not work. Christ said it will.

Optimism is a wonderful tool and a blessing. Maybe it is all we need to save the constitution. Pessimism scares ous from reaching their full potential. It keep us from helping others. symbolically, it leads us to bury our slippery gold inside the earth, where it does nothing to better our situation or help mankind improve. Pessimism buries our talents inside and keeps us from making the most of the gifts God has given us.

This is the greatest nation on earth and it will not fail.

Carpe Diem!

That sounds fine and dandy but where's the faith. You talk of optimism....optimism in what? with what works? what action plan?

Obviously you haven't read my thoughts on gold...LOL!

In the constrained little box (isolated and taken out of context - i.e. the macro picture) you present......90%+ of the prophets including Jesus would be burned at the stake for prophesying doom and gloom. Why did the Nephites try to kill Samuel the Lamanite? Why was Abinadi burned at the stake? Why was Jeremiah locked up in prison? Why did the Jews try to kill Lehi? Why were Amulek and Alma locked in prison....forced to watch those that would listen get burned to death? Why were the other prophets in history stoned?

What exactly did they prophesy that would incite the people to such violence and rage....to the point of putting them to death for their words? Would you say those words were optimistic?

How about John Taylor's visions of our day....were they optimistic in the perspective you are prescribing? Wasn't he a prophet? How about our dear brother Joseph's prophesies?

Ironically you use a quote from President Benson who is renowned for pointing out some of the glaring failings in not only the political arena but also the religious. You would do well to read "The Politician" that President Benson highly recommended to David O McKay while he was the prophet. May I introduce you to a few other Benson quotes along with some others.....

You and I have heard all our lives that the time may come when the Constitution may hang by a thread. I do not know whether it is a thread, or a small rope by which it now hangs, but I do know that whether it shall live or die is now in the balance.

- J. Reuben Clark, Jr., Conference Report, October 1942, p. 58

.....keep in mind that was 1942....

“Our great Constitution has been beaten and torn until now it hangs by a single thread, and that thread is our franchise to vote.”

-Ezra Taft Benson, 1976, Freeman Institute, Provo, Utah

.....keep in mind that was 1976....

“If American freedom is lost, if America is destroyed, if our blood-bought freedom is surrendered, it will be because of Americans. . . . The facts are clear. Our problem centers in Washington, D.C. And this applies to the administration of both political parties”

- Ezra Taft Benson, Conference Report, April 1968, pp. 50–52

“I testify that wickedness is rapidly expanding in every segment of our society. It is more highly organized, more cleverly disguised, and more powerfully promoted than ever before. Secret combinations lusting for power, gain, and glory are flourishing. A secret combination that seeks to overthrow the freedom of all lands, nations, and countries is increasing its evil influence and control over America and the entire world.”

- Ezra Taft Benson, I Testify, Ensign, p. 87. November 1988

“From the fifth grade through the fourth year of college, our young people are being indoctrinated with a Marxist philosophy, and I am fearful of the harvest.”

- Ezra Taft Benson, Improvement Era, p. 26. January 1967

“Any Christian constitutionalist who retreats from this battle jeopardizes his life here and hereafter. Seldom has so much responsibility hung on so few, so heavily; but our numbers are increasing, and we who have been warned have a responsibility to warn our neighbor.”

- Ezra Taft Benson, Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson, p. 591

“The precepts of man have gone so far in subverting our educational system that in many cases a higher degree today, in the so-called social sciences, can be tantamount to a major investment in error. Very few men build firmly enough on the rock of revelation to go through this kind of indoctrination and come out untainted.”

- Ezra Taft Benson, Conference Report, p. 319. April 1969

“Pride results in secret combinations which are built up to get power, gain, and glory of the world. This fruit of the sin of pride, namely secret combinations, brought down both the Jaredite and the Nephite civilizations and has been and will yet be the cause of the fall of many nations.”

- Ezra Taft Benson, Beware of Pride, Ensign, May 1989

“It is time, therefore, that every American, and especially every member of the priesthood, became informed about the aims, tactics, and schemes of socialistic-communism. This becomes particularly important when it is realized that communism is turning out to be the earthly image of the plan which Satan presented in the pre-existence. The whole program of socialistic- communism is essentially a war against God and the plan of salvation—the very plan which we fought to uphold during ‘the war in heaven.’”

- Ezra Taft Benson, Secret Combinations, Conference Report, October 1961

“Now, in our day, the Lord has revealed the need to reemphasize the Book of Mormon to get the Church and all the children of Zion out from under condemnation—the scourge and judgment (see D&C 84:54–58). This message must be carried to the members of the Church throughout the world” (Ensign, May 1986, p. 78; almost all of President Benson’s words quoted herein are also found in his book A Witness and a Warning: A Modern-day Prophet Testifies of the Book of Mormon, Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1988).

As in that important first address, President Benson has often referred to the condemnation that section 84 of the Doctrine and Covenants describes as being imposed on the Saints for neglect of the Book of Mormon. This revelation was given to the Church in September 1832, just two and one-half years after the Church was organized. In verses 43–44, the Lord declared:

“And I now give unto you a commandment to beware concerning yourselves, to give diligent heed to the words of eternal life.

“For you shall live by every word that proceedeth forth from the mouth of God.” [D&C 84:43–44]

Verses 45 through 47 affirm the truth of the word of the Lord, and the enlightenment given to all by the Spirit, and the fact that all who hearken to the Spirit come unto God the Father. [D&C 84:45–48] Verse 48 then refers to the gospel covenant:

“And the Father teacheth him of the covenant which he has renewed and confirmed upon you, which is confirmed upon you for your sakes, and not for your sakes only, but for the sake of the whole world.”

Verses 49 through 53 describe the sin and darkness of those who do not come to God and hearken to his voice. [D&C 84:49–53] The succeeding verses, 54 through 58, describe the circumstance of some early members of the Church:

“And your minds in times past have been darkened because of unbelief, and because you have treated lightly the things you have received—

“Which vanity and unbelief have brought the whole church under condemnation.

“And this condemnation resteth upon the children of Zion, even all.

“And they shall remain under this condemnation until they repent and remember the new covenant, even the Book of Mormon and the former commandments which I have given them, not only to say, but to do according to that which I have written—

“That they may bring forth fruit meet for their Father’s kingdom; otherwise there remaineth a scourge and judgment to be poured out upon the children of Zion.” [D&C 84:54–58]

Along with other General Authorities, I have a clear recollection of the General Authority temple meeting on 5 March 1987. For a year, President Benson had been stressing the reading of the Book of Mormon. Repeatedly he had quoted these verses from the Doctrine and Covenants, including the Lord’s statement that the Saints’ conduct had “brought the whole church under condemnation” (D&C 84:55).

In that temple meeting, President Benson reread those statements and declared, “This condemnation has not been lifted, nor will it be until we repent.” He also repeated his declaration of a year earlier that “in our day the Lord has inspired His servant to reemphasize the Book of Mormon to get the Church out from under condemnation.”

Along with others, I felt the impact of this declaration of condemnation. As I studied the subject, I was relieved to find that the serious consequences of this condemnation need not be permanent. The use of this term elsewhere in modern revelation suggests that it refers to a punishment or a penalty, not to a permanent banishment (see, for example, D&C 82:3). In fact, the words President Benson quoted invite the Saints to repent of their deficiencies so the condemnation can be removed.

To understand why President Benson has exhorted us to reemphasize the Book of Mormon and why this is necessary to remove us from condemnation, we need to remember the major theme of that book.

In his many messages about the Book of Mormon, President Benson has taught us that the major significance of the Book of Mormon is its witness of Jesus Christ as the Only Begotten Son of God the Eternal Father, who redeems and saves us from death and sin. Of related and equal importance is its explanation of our Savior’s atonement, which is the most fundamental doctrine of our faith.

http://lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideN ... 82620aRCRD

"The way ahead is dark and dreary and dreadful. There will yet be martyrs; the doors in Carthage shall again enclose the innocent. We have not been promised that the trials and evils of the world will entirely pass us by.”

“This is the great day of Satan’s power. Gadianton robbers fill the judgment seats in many nations. For those who finish their journey to Mount Zion, to stand with the Lamb, the way ahead is dark and dreary and dreadful. Our worst persecution is NOT behind us. The doors of Carthage shall again enclose the innocent. We shall yet weep more tears for Zion than we have ever known before.”

- Elder Bruce R. McConkie, October 1980 general conference

Now, with electronic voting machines and the documented fraud which has taken place through them – can we honestly say that the last thread which held up our Constitution hasn’t been cut or isn’t at least in the process of being cut?

20 Amazing Facts About
Voting in the USA

Did you know....
1. 80% of all votes in America are counted by only two companies: Diebold and ES&S.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diebold

2. There is no federal agency with regulatory authority or oversight of the U.S. voting machine industry.
http://www.onlinejournal.com/evoting/04 ... andes.html

3. The vice-president of Diebold and the president of ES&S are brothers.
http://www.onlinejournal.com/evoting/04 ... andes.html

4. The chairman and CEO of Diebold is a major Bush campaign organizer and donor who wrote in 2003 that he was “committed to helping Ohio deliver its electoral votes to the president next year.”
http://www.motherjones.com/commentary/c ... 3_200.html
http://www.hillnews.com/news/012903/hagel.aspx
http://www.businessweek.com/2000/00_28/b3689130.htm
http://www.essvote.com/HTML/about/about.html
http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0225-05.htm
http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0225-05.htm
http://www.diebold.com/aboutus/ataglance/default.htm

5. Republican Senator Chuck Hagel used to be chairman of ES&S. He became Senator based on votes counted by ES&S machines.
http://www.motherjones.com/commentary/c ... 3_200.html
http://www.onlinejournal.com/evoting/03 ... rakis.html

6. Republican Senator Chuck Hagel, long-connected with the Bush family, was recently caught lying about his ownership of ES&S by the Senate Ethics Committee.
http://www.blackboxvoting.com/modules.p ... cle&sid=26
http://www.hillnews.com/news/012903/hagel.aspx
http://www.onlisareinsradar.com/archives/000896.php

7. Senator Chuck Hagel was on a short list of George W. Bush's vice-presidential candidates.
http://www.businessweek.com/2000/00_28/b3689130.htm
http://theindependent.com/stories/05270 ... gel27.html

8. ES&S is the largest voting machine manufacturer in the U.S. and counts almost 60% of all U.S. votes.
http://www.essvote.com/HTML/about/about.html
http://www.onlinejournal.com/evoting/04 ... andes.html

9. Diebold's new touch screen voting machines have no paper trail of any votes. In other words, there is no way to verify that the data coming out of the machine is the same as what was legitimately put in by voters.
http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0225-05.htm
http://www.itworld.com/Tech/2987/041020 ... index.html

10. Diebold also makes ATM's, checkout scanners, and ticket machines, all of which log each transaction and can generate a paper trail.
http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0225-05.htm
http://www.diebold.com/solutions/default.htm

11. Diebold is based in Ohio.
http://www.diebold.com/aboutus/ataglance/default.htm

12. Diebold employed 5 convicted felons as consultants and developers to help write the central compiler computer code that counted 50% of the votes in 30 states.
http://www.chuckherrin.com/HackthevoteFAQ.htm#how
http://www.globalexchange.org/update/press/2638.html
movie here: http://www.bbvdocs.org/videos/baxterVPR.mov.)
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4874190

17. 30% of all U.S. votes are carried out on unverifiable touch screen voting machines with no paper trail.
http://www.wired.com/news/evote/0,2645,65757,00.html
http://www.rise4news.net/extravotes.html
http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/HL0411/S00227.htm

19. The governor of the state of Florida, Jeb Bush, is the President’s brother.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/ar ... Oct29.html

20. Serious voting anomalies in Florida -- again always favoring Bush -- have been mathematically demonstrated and experts are recommending further investigation.
http://www.computerworld.com/government ... 14,00.html
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/1106-30.htm
http://uscountvotes.org/

I look forward to the return of my Savior. He who will break the chains of the adversary and bring to a close his reign and dominion over the earth....to be locked up for a thousand years and only to be unleashed for a little season before the end commeth!

I dare say that no arm of the flesh will throw down the power of the adversary. His time is allotted. We make our respective choices. Do what's right and let the consequences follow. Battle for freedom in spirit and truth. But let us recognize where we can truly battle the most effectively and follow the lead of our chain of command who have been called by God to lead us in these latter days. Take heart in the destruction for it means the judgments of God are going forth to the convincing of many of His reality and to touch hearts that could not otherwise be touched. And those that gnash their teeth and turn away will get their due reward.

“There are people today all over the world who in their own courageous and sometimes quiet ways are working for freedom. In many cases we will never know until the next life all they sacrificed for liberty. These patriots are receiving heaven's applause for the role they are playing, and in the long run that applause will be louder and longer than any they could receive in this world.

Which leads me to the second blind spot of those who hesitate to get into the fight. And that is their failure to realize that we will win in the long run, and for keeps, and that they pass up great blessings by not getting into the battle now when the odds are against us and the rewards are greatest.

The only questions, before the final victory, are, first, ‘What stand will each of us take in this struggle?’ and second, ‘How much tragedy can be avoided by doing something now?’

Time is on the side of truth—and truth is eternal. Those who are fighting against freedom may feel confident now, but they are shortsighted.

This is still God's world. The forces of evil, working through some mortals, have made a mess of a good part of it. But it is still God's world. In due time, when each of us has had a chance to prove ourselves-including whether or not we are going to stand up for freedom—God will interject himself, and the final and eternal victory shall be for free agency. And then shall those complacent people on the sidelines, and those who took the wrong but temporarily popular course, lament their decisions. To the patriots I say this: Take that long eternal look. Stand up for freedom, no matter what the cost. Stand up and be counted. It can help to save your soul-and maybe your country.”

- Ezra Taft Benson, An Enemy Hath Done This, p. 62

“Other officers in the kingdom have fallen, but never the Presidents. ‘Keep your eye on the Captain’ is still good counsel. The words of a living prophet must and ever will take precedence. President McKay has said a lot about our tragic trends toward socialism and communism and the responsibilities liberty-loving people have in defending and preserving our Constitution. Have we read these words from God's mouthpiece and pondered on them?”

- Ezra Taft Benson, October 10, 1963

“If America is destroyed, it may be by Americans who salute the flag, sing the national anthem, march in patriotic parades, cheer Fourth of July speakers — normally good Americans, but Americans who fail to comprehend what is required to keep our country strong and free — Americans who have been lulled away into a false security.”

- Ezra Taft Benson, Conference Report, April 1968

How would describe a false sense of security? A 4 to 5 year rebound window? In the face of massive fraud, theft, thuggery, and secret combinations?

“Secret combinations flourished because, as Helaman tells us, the Gadianton robbers ‘had seduced the more part of the righteous until they had come down to believe in their works and partake of their spoils’ (Helaman 6:38)... even as today.”

- Ezra Taft Benson, The Savior’s Visit to America, Ensign, p. 4. May 1987

Karl Denninger Explains Foreclosure-Gate On The Ratigan Show
http://www.zerohedge.com/article/karl-d ... n#comments

“Those who subscribe to this [totalitarian] philosophy stop at nothing to achieve their ends...force, trickery, lies, broken promises, mayhem, and individual and mass murder.”

- Ezra Taft Benson, Conference Report, October 1960

I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. Already they have raised up a monied aristocracy that has set the government at defiance. The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs.

- Thomas Jefferson

If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the people of all property until their children wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered.

- Thomas Jefferson

We have no government armed with the power capable of contending with human passions, unbridled by morality and true religion. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.

- John Adams, The Changing Political Thought of John Adams, Howe, p. 189

Only a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become corrupt and vicious they have more need of masters.

- Benjamin Franklin, Speech at the Constitutional Convention, Sept. 17, 1787

Here's a secret combination suggested reading list -
http://yophat.blogspot.com/

Best to know what you are up against....such that you can find the most effective means in combating the enemy!

A nation of well-informed men who have been taught to know and prize the rights which God has given them cannot be enslaved. It is in the region of ignorance that tyranny begins.

- Benjamin Franklin

Brethren and sisters, let me say in closing that we have it of record, that the prophet Joseph Smith said the time will come when, through secret organizations taking the law into their own hands, not being governed by law or by due process of law, but becoming a law unto themselves, when, by those disintegrating activities, the Constitution of the United States would be so torn and rent asunder, and life and property and peace and security would be held of so little value, that the Constitution would, as it were, hang by a thread. But he never said, so far as I have heard, that that thread would be cut. I believe, with Elder Richards, that this Constitution will be preserved, but it will be preserved very largely in consequence of what the Lord has revealed and what this people, through listening to the Lord and being obedient, will help to bring about, to stabilize and give permanency and effect to the Constitution itself. That also is our mission. That also is what we are here for. I glory in it. I praise god with all my heart and soul that I am a member of it.

- Charles W. Nibley, Conference Report, October 1923, p. 62

It is no wonder that the Prophet Joseph said—even though he knew he would suffer martyrdom in this land—“The Constitution of the United States is a glorious standard; it is founded in the wisdom of God. It is a heavenly banner.”

Yet, according to his contemporaries, he foresaw the time when the destiny of the nation would be in danger and would hang as by a thread. Thank God he did not see the thread break. He also indicated the important part that this people should yet play in standing for the principles embodied in these sacred documents—the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution.

Ezra Taft Benson, Conference Report, April 1948, p. 85

....which means we haven't got much time left. As you can see from Obama's executive order posted here -
http://yophat.blogspot.com/2010/01/exec ... rnors.html

the plans are in place (and have been in development for decades - Operation Gardenplot, REX 84, FEMA, NORTHCOM, SPP, new age peace movement, etc.) and the go live date (imo) is 2012. Which means in order for the above statement to be true....2011 is going to be a big year!

When the Constitution of the United States hangs, as it were, upon a single thread, they will have to call for the “Mormon” elders to save it from utter destruction; and they will step forth and do it.

– Brigham Young, JD 2:182, February 18, 1855, Latter Day Prophets Speaks. Pg. 230

When the people shall have torn to shreds the Constitution of the United States, the elders of Israel will be found holding it up to the nations of the earth and proclaiming liberty and equal rights to all men and extending the hand of fellowship to the oppressed of all nations. This is part of the program and as long as we do what is right and fear God He will help us and stand by us under all circumstances.

– John Taylor, JD 21:8, August 31, 1879

Unless those in authority in the United States can be influenced to abandon the suicidal course on which they have embarked–or unless they can be replaced by men who will–we cannot hope to restore in our nation the kind of domestic peace and order which has made our many generations proud to be Americans.

- Ezra Taft Benson Americans are Destroying America, General Conference, Apr. 1968

So, I say with all the energy of my soul that unless we as citizens of this nation forsake our sins, political and otherwise, and return to the fundamental principles of Christianity and of constitutional government, we will lose our political liberties, our free institutions, and will stand in jeopardy before God.

- A Witness and a Warning, by Ezra Taft Benson, General Conference, Nov. Ensign, 1979, p. 31

The revelation given to John Taylor, as recorded by Wilford Woodruff, and published in Kraut's Visions of the Latter Days, describes the horror in America:

"I continued on my way passing through Omaha, Council Bluffs, and Iowa, and saw many women moving about in an excited manner. Sickness and death prevailed on all sides. The inhabitants of Illinois and Missouri were in dreadful condition, the men and women killing each other in the most brutal manner.

"Next I visited the City of Washington DC and found the place deserted and in ruins. From there I went to Baltimore and on the square, where stands the monument of 1812, dead bodies of the inhabitants of the place were piled in heaps. While there I saw mothers cut the throats of their own children and drink the blood in order to quench their thirst. The waters of Chesapeake Bay were so befouled from the effect of the dead bodies that the water could not be used. Sickness and death prevailed throughout the city and the stench was something awful..."

Taylor then visited Philadelphia and New York, which suffered likewise:

"The sights that met my view on all sides were so horrible to look upon that it would be impossible for me to describe them.

"After these scenes had passed, I found myself standing on the left bank of the Missouri River, just oppsoite to where stood the City of Independence and soon discovered that the states of Illinois, Missouri, and part of Iowa had been swept clean of its inhabitants and the surrounding country was a complete wilderness...

"I then looked over the country; in every direction as far as I could see, a similar condition prevailed. I then passed eastward above the earth and looking down saw many people coming west, mostly women who were carrying small bundleson their backs, and I thought it strange that there were so few men among them. They were on their way to the mountains, and I wondered how they could get there as the railroads were abandoned and the rails were in bad condition..."

- KRAUT, Ogden: The White Horse Prophecy; 1993, Pioneer Press

"All that you know now can scarcely be called a preface to the sermon that will be preached with fire and sword, tempests, earthquakes, hail, rain and fearful destruction. What matters the destruction of a few railway cars? You will hear of magnificent cities, now idolized by the people, sinking in the earth entombing its inhabitants. The sea will heave itself beyond its bounds, engulfing many cities. Famine will spread over the nation, and nation will rise against nation, kingdom against kingdom, states against states, in our own country and in foreign lands."

Brigham Young - Modin, D.: & Comstock, Tamara: Prophecy 1973-2000; 1972, Hermes House

"What then will be the condition of the people when the great and dreadful war will come? It will be very different from the war between the North and South. It will be neighborhood against neighborhood, city against city, town against town, state against state, and they will go forth destroying and being destroyed. Manufacturing will almost cease, great cities will be left desolate. The time will come when the great city of New York will be left without inhabitants...

"When that day shall come (when the missionaries will be called home) there shall be wars, not such wars as have come in centuries and years that are past and gone, but a dsolating war. When I say desolating, I mean that it will lay these european nations in waste. Cities will be left vacated, without inhabitants. The people will be destroyed by the sword of their own hands. Not only this but many other cities will be burned; for when contending armies are wrought up with the terrible anger, without the Spirit of God upon them, when they have not that spirit of humanity that now characterizes many of the wars amongst nations, when they are left to themselves, there will be no quarter given, no prisoners taken, but a war of destruction, of desolation, of the burning of the cities and villages, until the land is laid desolate."

- Orson Pratt (J. Disc. 20: 150)

"While I continued to stare and marvel at the wondrous work before me, all of a sudden the scene vanished, and a new era, resultant, however, from the forces of the religious agencies before mentioned, burst upon my view. The history of American Independence, with the actors therein, passed before me. The Constitution of the United States was emblazoned upon an immense distance. Civil and religious toleration was general throughout the land. Man rejoiced in the privilege of worshipping God according to the dictates of conscience. Prosperity reigned. Angels smiles. Heaven approved. The fetters of political and religious intolerance, forged by the monarchs of the eastern world, were sundered, shall it be said forever? Such was my thought. I was full of joy at the sight; big tears of joy rolled down my cheeks, when all of a sudden, my attention was directed to a personage standing by my bedside, and who was attired in a white and flowing robe. Addressing me, he said, 'Son of Mortality, look."'

"I looked and beheld a scene most revolting to my senses, from the fact that it was the reverse of the prosperity and religious freedom I had before witnessed. I saw the representatives of one branch of the Republic holding in their hands fetters they themselves had forged.

"The personage, again addressing me, said,'"Knowest thou the meaning of these?'

"I answered, 'No.'

"He replied, 'These are the chains with which certain sons of the Republic, who have tasted the fruit of the tree of liberty, desire to bind their fellows. These are they who seek to subvert the cause of human freedom. These seek to enslave one portion of the children of freedom who differ from them in religious belief and practice. Know thou, my son, that their object is filthy lucre. They plot to take away human rights, and to destroy the freedom of the soul, to possess the homes of the industrious without fee or reward. Their souls shall be in derision, and the heavens shall laugh at their folly. Their calamity slumbereth not. But cast thine eyes eastward and look.'

"I looked and beheld that the bands that held society together during the reign of the republic, were snapped asunder. Society had broken loose from all restraints of principle and good conscience. Brotherhood had dissolved. Respect for common rights and even the rights of life and property had fled from the land. I saw faction after faction arise and contend with each other. Political strife was everywhere. Father and son alike contended in these awful feuds. The spirit of deadly hate... passed through the Republic. Blood was written every banner. The spirit of bloodshed appeared to possess every heart.

"Turning to the person in white I exclaimed, 'Surely this means the total destruction of our nation."'

"Touching my eyes with his finger, he replied: 'Look again.'

"I looked and beheld that many who were angry with the rulers of the Republic, for the subversion of the Constitutional law, and their wholesale plunder of the public moneys, arose and proclaimed themselves the friends of the Constitution in its original form. These looked around for some others to sustain the country's flag inviolate, pledging themselves and their fortunes and sacred honours to that end.

"A voice was suddenly heard declaring these words: 'In the distant mountain tops are to be found the true lovers of freedom and equal rights, a people who have never made war upon each other. Go there, for only there can your lives and property be secure from the spoiler. There alone can the flag you love wave proudly for the protection of all people, irrespective of creed and color.'

"While thus engaged I cast my eyes to the far west, when suddenly appeared on Ensign Peak, near Salt Lake City, a beautiful flag whereon was written these words: 'Friends of Human Liberty throughout the world, all hail! We greet you under the flag of freedom, our country's flag.' One shout of 'Welcome' from the Mountain Sons of Freedom rent the air. I beheld that the multitude wept with joy. The laws were again administered in purity. The people prospered. Tyrants were hurled down. All religious bodies were equally protected before the law. No North, no South, no East, no West, but one unbroken nation whose banner waved for all the world. On this I awoke in tears of joy."

Bishop Charles D. Evans - Modin, D.: & Comstock, Tamara: Prophecy 1973-2000; 1972, Hermes House

"There will be two great political parties in this country. One will be called the Republican, and the other the Democrat party. These two parties will go to war and out of these two parties will spring another party which will be the Independent American Party. The United States will spend her strength and means warring in foreign lands until other nations will say, 'Let's divide up the lands of the United States'; then the people of the US will unite and swear by the blood of their forefathers, that the land shall not be divided. Then the country will go to war, and they will fight until one half of the US Army will give up, and the rest will continue to struggle. They will keep on until they are very ragged and discouraged, and almost ready to give up --- when the boys from the mountains rush forth in time to save the American Army from defeat and ruin. And they will say, 'Brethren, we are glad you have come; give us men, henceforth, who can talk with God'. Then you will have friends, but you will save the country when its liberty hangs by a hair, as it were."

Joseph Smith - Modin, D.: & Comstock, Tamara: Prophecy 1973-2000; 1972, Hermes House

The righteous need not fear....not that a few wheat won't get pulled up with the tares but in the context of Come Come Ye Saints -

And should we die before our journey's through,
Happy day! All is well!
We then are free from toil and sorrow, too;
With the just we shall dwell!
But if our lives are spared again to see the Saints their rest obtain,
Oh, how we'll make this chorus swell-
All is well! All is well!

This is true optimism....in the face of whatever comes our way....through hope & faith in Heavenly Father and His son Jesus Christ!

But the wicked on the other hand.....well their hearts will fail them!

This on the other hand is true pessimism and the result of wickedness (decisions made to satisfy short-term appetites/lusts at the loss of long-term happiness).....for when one forgoes long-term happiness how can one look to the future with any amount of optimism?



Look to the Savior as He is the (only) way, the truth, and the light. He is our salvation. He is our conqueror! He tread the wine press alone! He is victorious over the adversary! The Father's will be done despite whatever our personal desires are.

[Jason]

This is the greatest nation on earth and it will not fail.

No it's not, The Kingdom of God is the greatest Nation on the earth- as restored and established by Joseph Smith jr.

Our "great Nation" will fall, prophecy after prophecy foretell this- our nation will only be saved IF the people repent and turn to God, I don't see that happening.

Not to mention the whole Book Of Mormon thing- it was written for us- did their great nation fail? Yes- why Wickedness and pride- are we on the same course - YES.

It has to fall as it is too wicked- then after the fall it is redeemed.

Also God loves ALL his children - in ALL countries, don't make the mistake of thinking that America is so far above every other nation- it's not anymore because of it's wickedness.

God's "Nation" is the Kingdom Of God- and all are welcome- not just Americans

Or am I just being Pessimistic?

Nah....spot on as usual.....the USSA is the whore of the earth and the primary tool in implementing the gadianton's world wide dominion! Bases in 160+ nations of the world.....spend more on the military/MIC than the next 10 combined. Helped set up and maintain the Russian, Chinese, and myriad other communist/fascist dictatorships around the world. Not even getting into the establishment of the United Nations, World Bank, International Monetary Fund, and myriad other globalist organizations established and funded by yours truly to repress, enslave, steal, and murder! Excellent supporting documentation!

[Mosby]

Mummy- I was waiting for someone to break out the "E.T Benson" and rain on JM's happy prophet party

Optimism is great- we as Christians all know that in the End we will win, but we will have to endure hell before we get to that end.

You can pretend that you are being "Optimistic" by ignoring prophecy and talking down to those who have actually studied it- but it won't change the fact of what's coming down the road.........

But, I'm getting ahead of myself- You, I and everyone else should remember this one fact - this one fact that will help us all remain optimistic:

Original_Intent wrote:
I think JMarsigli is clearly one of the most intelligent people on the forums

[pjbrownie]

Holy crap, mummy!

[Squally]

Mummy! Thanks for that wonderful and long post. It was great reading all of those prophecies and quotes together. Very well said. I would say one of the best yet. I love your optimism based on the big picture and truth.

So optimism based on lies really should be called---------deception and/or ignorance.

[Mosby]

So optimism based on lies really should be called---------deception and/or ignorance.

Or it could be called t.v or talk radio

[Original_Intent]

Mummy- I was waiting for someone to break out the "E.T Benson" and rain on JM's happy prophet party

Optimism is great- we as Christians all know that in the End we will win, but we will have to endure hell before we get to that end.

You can pretend that you are being "Optimistic" by ignoring prophecy and talking down to those who have actually studied it- but it won't change the fact of what's coming down the road.........

But, I'm getting ahead of myself- You, I and everyone else should remember this one fact - this one fact that will help us all remain optimistic:

Original_Intent wrote:
I think JMarsigli is clearly one of the most intelligent people on the forums

However, you have to remember that that opinion was expressed by one of the most foolish people on the forums (at least according to one of the most intelligent people on the forums) so we get into a bit of a catch-22. The fact that I would also make a lousy bishop, I think, really destroys any credibility that I have, so anything I have said, especially regarding anyone's intelligence, should be disregarded.

[ChelC]

I hate the labels optimist and pessimist. I am a person who people would probably call a pessimist at times, but I always like to prepare for the worst. When bad times have come, they have rarely been a shock to me, and I think I handle things and roll with them better that way... but I'm also guilty of being too farsighted sometimes and not slowing down as much as I should to savor the here and now.

Anyway, I'd be happy if those two words dropped off a cliff. I agree that often people mistake denial for optimism and evil for pessimism. They both have their place and every reasonable person ought to be some of both.

Deja vu... I swear I've ranted about this before on the boards.

[Mosby]

The fact that I would also make a lousy bishop,

I would love it if you were my Bishop O.I- I would vote for you.

[Jason]

This is the greatest nation on earth and it will not fail.

No it's not, The Kingdom of God is the greatest Nation on the earth- as restored and established by Joseph Smith jr.

Our "great Nation" will fall, prophecy after prophecy foretell this- our nation will only be saved IF the people repent and turn to God, I don't see that happening.

Not to mention the whole Book Of Mormon thing- it was written for us- did their great nation fail? Yes- why Wickedness and pride- are we on the same course - YES.

It has to fall as it is too wicked- then after the fall it is redeemed.

Also God loves ALL his children - in ALL countries, don't make the mistake of thinking that America is so far above every other nation- it's not anymore because of it's wickedness.

God's "Nation" is the Kingdom Of God- and all are welcome- not just Americans

Or am I just being Pessimistic?

Nah....spot on as usual.....the USSA is the whore of the earth and the primary tool in implementing the gadianton's world wide dominion! Bases in 160+ nations of the world.....spend more on the military/MIC than the next 10 combined. Helped set up and maintain the Russian, Chinese, and myriad other communist/fascist dictatorships around the world. Not even getting into the establishment of the United Nations, World Bank, International Monetary Fund, and myriad other globalist organizations established and funded by yours truly to repress, enslave, steal, and murder! Excellent supporting documentation!

I must say though that this is in fact the greatest nation on earth.....the promised land. I believe this country or more appropriately the people of this country are the only ones on the face of the earth with the capability to put an end to secret combinations through the structure established by our forefathers. That said we've been lulled away into self gratifying our appetites while the leadership structure was co-opted....and then we've been lead further down the primrose path through manipulation of the likes of the Tavistock Institute, alphabet soup operations, political & financial corruption, etc.....to the point that our beloved country has now become the whore of the earth and #1 tool in the gadianton's arsenal for inflicting pain & misery upon the rest of the world....while stealing their wealth and consuming it upon our lusts.

So here we are today having trodden upon the principles and documents that our forefathers bled out their lives for.....and let us remember that along with the blessings of a promised land there also comes a curse when the people choose wickedness over righteousness.

And behold, a curse shall come upon the land, saith the Lord of Hosts, because of the peoples’ sake who are upon the land, yea, because of their wickedness and their abominations.

And it shall come to pass, saith the Lord of Hosts, yea, our great and true God, that whoso shall hide up treasures in the earth shall find them again no more, because of the great curse of the land, save he be a righteous man and shall hide it up unto the Lord.

For I will, saith the Lord, that they shall hide up their treasures unto me; and cursed be they who hide not up their treasures unto me; for none hideth up their treasures unto me save it be the righteous; and he that hideth not up his treasures unto me, cursed is he, and also the treasure, and none shall redeem it because of the curse of the land.

And the day shall come that they shall hide up their treasures, because they have set their hearts upon riches; and because they have set their hearts upon their riches, and will hide up their treasures when they shall flee before their enemies; because they will not hide them up unto me, cursed be they and also their treasures; and in that day shall they be smitten, saith the Lord.

Behold ye, the people of this great city, and hearken unto my words; yea, hearken unto the words which the Lord saith; for behold, he saith that ye are cursed because of your riches, and also are your riches cursed because ye have set your hearts upon them, and have not hearkened unto the words of him who gave them unto you.

• • •

For this cause hath the Lord God caused that a curse should come upon the land, and also upon your riches, and this because of your iniquities.

• • •

Yea, behold, the anger of the Lord is already kindled against you; behold, he hath cursed the land because of your iniquity.

• • •

Yea, we have hid up our treasures and they have slipped away from us, because of the curse of the land.

O that we had repented in the day that the word of the Lord came unto us; for behold the land is cursed, and all things are become slippery, and we cannot hold them.

- Helaman

Wherefore, I, Lehi, prophesy according to the workings of the Spirit which is in me, that there shall anone come into this land save they shall be brought by the hand of the Lord.

Wherefore, this land is consecrated unto him whom he shall bring. And if it so be that they shall serve him according to the commandments which he hath given, it shall be a land of liberty unto them; wherefore, they shall never be brought down into captivity; if so, it shall be because of iniquity; for if iniquity shall abound cursed shall be the land for their sakes, but unto the righteous it shall be blessed forever.

Wherefore, because thou hast been faithful thy seed shall be blessed with his seed, that they dwell in prosperity long upon the face of this land; and nothing, save it shall be iniquity among them, shall harm or disturb their prosperity upon the face of this land forever.

- Nephi

But if they receive thee not, I will send upon them a cursing instead of a blessing.

• • •

And it shall be given thee in the very moment what thou shalt speak and write, and they shall hear it, or I will send unto them a cursing instead of a blessing.

• • •

And in whatsoever place ye shall enter, and they receive you not in my name, ye shall leave a cursing instead of a blessing, by casting off the dust of your feet against them as a testimony, and cleansing your feet by the wayside.

• • •

And whosoever shall go to law with thee shall be cursed by the law.

Joseph Smith - D&C 24

For instead of blessings, ye, by your own works, bring cursings, wrath, indignation, and judgments upon your own heads, by your follies, and by all your abominations, which you practise before me, saith the Lord.

Joseph Smith - D&C 124

And the Lord said unto me: Go to this people, and say unto them—Repent, lest I come out and smite them with a curse, and they die.

- Moses 7:10

But inasmuch as they were not faithful they were nigh unto cursing.

Therefore, inasmuch as some of my servants have not kept the commandment, but have broken the covenant through covetousness, and with feigned words, I have cursed them with a very sore and grievous curse.

For I, the Lord, have decreed in my heart, that inasmuch as any man belonging to the order shall be found a transgressor, or, in other words, shall break the covenant with which ye are bound, he shall be cursed in his life, and shall be trodden down by whom I will;

- D&C 104:3-5

And inasmuch as mine enemies come against you to drive you from my goodly land, which I have consecrated to be the land of Zion, even from your own lands after these testimonies, which ye have brought before me against them, ye shall curse them;

And whomsoever ye curse, I will curse, and ye shall avenge me of mine enemies.

And my presence shall be with you even in avenging me of mine enemies, unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me.

Let no man be afraid to lay down his life for my sake; for whoso layeth down his life for my sake shall find it again.

And whoso is not willing to lay down his life for my sake is not my disciple.

D&C 103:24-28

O then, if I have seen so great things, if the Lord in his condescension unto the children of men hath visited men in so much mercy, why should my heart weep and my soul linger in the valley of sorrow, and my flesh waste away, and my strength slacken, because of mine afflictions?

And why should I yield to sin, because of my flesh? Yea, why should I give way to temptations, that the evil one have place in my heart to destroy my peace and afflict my soul? Why am I angry because of mine enemy?

Awake, my soul! No longer droop in sin. Rejoice, O my heart, and give place no more for the enemy of my soul.

Do not anger again because of mine enemies. Do not slacken my strength because of mine afflictions.

Rejoice, O my heart, and cry unto the Lord, and say: O Lord, I will praise thee forever; yea, my soul will rejoice in thee, my God, and the rock of my salvation.

O Lord, wilt thou redeem my soul? Wilt thou deliver me out of the hands of mine enemies? Wilt thou make me that I may shake at the appearance of sin?

May the gates of hell be shut continually before me, because that my heart is broken and my spirit is contrite! O Lord, wilt thou not shut the gates of thy righteousness before me, that I may walk in the path of the low valley, that I may be strict in the plain road!

O Lord, wilt thou encircle me around in the robe of thy righteousness! O Lord, wilt thou make a way for mine escape before mine enemies! Wilt thou make my path straight before me! Wilt thou not place a stumbling block in my way—but that thou wouldst clear my way before me, and hedge not up my way, but the ways of mine enemy.

O Lord, I have trusted in thee, and I will trust in thee forever. I will not put my trust in the arm of flesh; for I know that cursed is he that putteth his trust in the arm of flesh. Yea, cursed is he that putteth his trust in man or maketh flesh his arm.

- Nephi

[Original_Intent]

The fact that I would also make a lousy bishop,

I would love it if you were my Bishop O.I- I would vote for you.

What did I ever do to you? Seriously, JM never spoke truer words, I just find it funny that she rails on people for putting others down and then says stuff like that. And the reasons I would make a lousy bishop have nothing to do with anything I post here. But maybe the Spirit told her.

[Original_Intent]

Way to lay it out, Mummy! Nothing pessimistic there, just an acknowledment that we have messed up and there are only two paths in front of us - repentance or the pride cycle.

[NoGreaterLove]

This is the greatest nation on earth and it will not fail.

I have heard of a few Nephites who said the same thing just prior to their demise.

[Squally]

I hate the labels optimist and pessimist. I am a person who people would probably call a pessimist at times, but I always like to prepare for the worst. When bad times have come, they have rarely been a shock to me, and I think I handle things and roll with them better that way... but I'm also guilty of being too farsighted sometimes and not slowing down as much as I should to savor the here and now.

Anyway, I'd be happy if those two words dropped off a cliff. I agree that often people mistake denial for optimism and evil for pessimism. They both have their place and every reasonable person ought to be some of both.

Deja vu... I swear I've ranted about this before on the boards.

I think you have a great point. These 2 words can be used to accuse others of something that may not be true. Truth is truth, and that is what we should all be focussed on. And when we couple the truth with the gospel and our covenants with God, of course we can't help but have joy. We stand with God.

[dennis]

I like to think of myself as a Realist. The ability to see situations in the light of facts and to deal with them practically . The optimist sees the dough-nut the pessismist sees the hole. The realist sees both and can deal with both, in light of the truth. Genuine is also another good word. Genuine gold [real gold]

[Jnewby]

Optimism and pessimism are but a state of mind, neither may have any real bearing on reality. I can quote the scriptures over and over making a case for an optimistic or pessimistic state of mind, or I can read the scriptures and listen to the prophets and attempt to understand what the future holds and prepare.

I would submit that a pessimistic view of the future of our country is well founded if we dwell in the short term, on the other hand I would submit that an optimistic vision can be had if taking the long-term approach.

I personally am rather anxious for the events that must surely unfold as per the scriptures to unfold so we can get on to the optimistic happenings which are surely to come. In the meantime, we continue to hold our heads up, gird up our loins and fresh courage take, spreading the gospel and enjoying life to the fullest as men are that they may have joy. We can still have joy when the darkness is all around if we center our thoughts and actions on those things that are important.

Of course, what is important may be different to different people. Some find joy in missionary work, some find joy in gospel activities, some find joy in helping others, some find joy in fighting for the freedoms we all enjoy, some find joy in geneology and so forth.