The Great Earthquake During the 6th Seal

[durangout]

His wording is very interesting. The current monetary situation he likens to an earthquate. I have long suspected that the great earthquake sign in Revelations 6th seal was symbolic. Could this be it?

Ben Davies - The World Monetary Earthquake
Rising star Ben Davies, CEO of Hinde Capital out of London put together this piece exclusively for the King World News blog. Here is a quote from Ben’s excellent piece, “Within a single week 25 nations have deliberately slashed the values of their currencies. Nothing quite comparable with this has ever happened before in the history of the world. This world monetary earthquake will carry many lessons.”
September 28, 2010

The World Monetary Earthquake, The Dash From Cash


By Ben Davies, CEO of Hinde Capital


September 28 (King World News) - Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Sailor, Rich Man, Poor Man, Beggar Man........Thief





Globally GDP has been anaemic since the crisis first arose in 2007. The inevitable conclusion of most countries today is that the best way to extricate themselves from the current mess is to shift effective demand away from imports onto domestically produced goods. The preferred method is competitive currency devaluations.





Unfortunately this is not possible for all, and leads to friction as countries effectively steal other nations output to bolster their own. Plato and Aristotle referred to this as 'overgrazing', the ‘tragedy of the commons’. Nothing changes. This always leads to heightened tensions and conditions of capital controls and other protectionist behaviour such as punitive tariffs and quotas on imports often prevail. Friedman's flat world aside - it is already happening.





To maintain the last decade of prosperity (illusion) countries are systematically hell bent on exporting themselves to economic health. This is a zero sum game. Not all countries can export at the same time by definition that the global balance of payments will not then balance. For one winner there is a loser. The implication on import prices is dramatic. Inflation is imported or exported depending on your view point around the world. Let's rephrase 'inflation' - global citizens will experience a rise in the value of goods due to creation of more money used to devalue their currency.





The pursuit of mercantilist traditions may help alleviate the collapse in output for some, and the ensuing rise in goods prices may help government reduce the value of their debts; but at what costs? Increased international tensions and let's not forget the internal social unrest that is accompanied by citizens whose wages have not kept abreast of these rising prices.





As the traditional English folk tune rhymes Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Sailor, Rich Man, Poor Man, Beggar Man........Thief. Rich or poor, you beg from your neighbour there is no two ways about it in the world of current accounts - you are a thief.





It is politically more savoury to expropriate the output from another country, unfortunately this will be at the loss of the majority.





Within a single week 25 nations have deliberately slashed the values of their currencies. Nothing quite comparable with this has ever happened before in the history of the world. This world monetary earthquake will carry many lessons.





Henry Hazlitt 1948 wrote this in a book "From Bretton Woods to World Inflation", which predicted the inevitable collapse of this fixed exchange rate mechanism. It was a compilation of his editorials from both his time at the New York Times and Newsweek, which ridiculed the prevailing economic Keynesian thinking to great effect. A brilliant journalist, economists and liberal philosopher, this man intuitively understood the pernicious nature of the Bretton Woods fixed exchange rate arranged in 1944.





Murmurings of such 'beggar-thy-neighbour' currency devaluations have once again sprung up amongst the financial literati and rightly so. Better late than never. The truth be told is that we have been living in a highly unstable world even more so than under BW I. The dollar pegs, primarily the Asian renminbi dollar semi-fixed exchange rate, what most refer to as Bretton Woods II, have (arguably) been responsible for the financial friction we observe today.





The RMB and US dollar are constantly colliding into each other. The clashing of these two tectonic currency plates has just begun to accelerate at an alarming rate. Ironically the move to greater currency flexibility on the part of the RMB against the dollar stands ready to produce the almighty mother of seismic monetary events - the collapse of the fiat currency system. The implications for government bonds, equities and real assets are profound. Are we being overly sensational? We don't think so.





KingWorldNews.com


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[pjbrownie]

Could be one way to look at but let me ask this: Have we seen economic earthquakes before?

If so, I don't think it qualifies. I'm looking for a real earthquake, or at least something that qualifies as being a unique signifier of end times prophecy.

[LV Architect]

There are two great earthquakes spoken of in Revelations. Rev 6:12 and Rev 16:18

Rev 16:18 is the Great Day of the Lord (Second Coming) when He appears to the Jews.

20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.

Rev 6:12 is BEFORE the Great Day of the Lord. This literal earthquake that:

14 ... every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

The Doctrine and Covenants clarify that these are two distinct events (45:42, 29:14). This first cataclysmic event will be particularly destructive to America as it sweeps the land and prepares it for the building of Zion and the return of the 10 tribes. It also reveals the Anti-Christ as he is given the Key to power after this event (Rev 9). Two great battles for the souls of men ensue. Zion (Rev 14) or the Kingdom of the Anti-Christ (Rev 13).

Rev 6:12 = III Nephi 8. This is the great KEY. During mortality Christ came first to the Jews then to the scattered tribes. The order is reversed for His Second Coming. The last shall be first and the first shall be last.

[NoGreaterLove]

There are two great earthquakes spoken of in Revelations. Rev 6:12 and Rev 16:18

Rev 16:18 is the Great Day of the Lord (Second Coming) when He appears to the Jews.

20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.

Rev 6:12 is BEFORE the Great Day of the Lord. This literal earthquake that:

14 ... every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

The Doctrine and Covenants clarify that these are two distinct events (45:42, 29:14). This first cataclysmic event will be particularly destructive to America as it sweeps the land and prepares it for the building of Zion and the return of the 10 tribes. It also reveals the Anti-Christ as he is given the Key to power after this event (Rev 9). Two great battles for the souls of men ensue. Zion (Rev 14) or the Kingdom of the Anti-Christ (Rev 13).

Rev 6:12 = III Nephi 8. This is the great KEY. During mortality Christ came first to the Jews then to the scattered tribes. The order is reversed for His Second Coming. The last shall be first and the first shall be last.

Thanks LV
I agree

[Carlos]

durangout,

If you are looking for symbolic interpretations of the 6th seal and the earthquake, I posted one which I think fits the last 1000 years quite accurately. A definition of various symbols was posted on the same page in the link below:

http://www.ldsfreedomforum.com/viewtopi ... &start=113

It might work for you, it certainly doesn't for NGL and others.

[durangout]

durangout,

If you are looking for symbolic interpretations of the 6th seal and the earthquake, I posted one which I think fits the last 1000 years quite accurately. A definition of various symbols was posted on the same page in the link below:

http://www.ldsfreedomforum.com/viewtopi ... &start=113

It might work for you, it certainly doesn't for NGL and others.

Yes; I read this and I think you are on the right track unlike so many on this forum who seem to think the signs / woes are all literal. I think that they will be looking for signs that will never come because they "missed the mark" not unlike like the Jews of old. I wonder if those that think Revelations is literal also think that the earth was created in 6 days (i.e. 6, 24 hour time periods or 6000 years for that matter).

Like everybody else on this forum, I in the past had developed my own personal timeline for the 2nd coming. IMO and like you I believe the sings are symbolic and this is precisley why none of the timelines can be correct. That is to say even the time perods represent an un-fixed amout of time. For example in Rev it says they will be 7 years burning the weapons of war. 7--how much more of a symbolic number can you get. Or--7 years of tribulation. It won't be 7 years long but some undisclosed amount of time. 7 is simply used to convey the idea that the tribulaiton will be long enough to "complete" the seperation of the wheat from the tares.

Just some more of my half-baked ideas I guess.

[NoGreaterLove]

Yes; I read this and I think you are on the right track unlike so many on this forum who seem to think the signs / woes are all literal. I think that they will be looking for signs that will never come because they "missed the mark" not unlike like the Jews of old. I wonder if those that think Revelations is literal also think that the earth was created in 6 days (i.e. 6, 24 hour time periods or 6000 years for that matter).

I would bet there were people saying the same thing just before Christ came: Lets see.

Helaman 14:
3 And behold, this will I give unto you for a sign at the time of his coming; for behold, there shall be great lights in heaven, insomuch that in the night before he cometh there shall be no darkness, insomuch that it shall appear unto man as if it was day.

3 Nephi 1:
9 Now it came to pass that there was a day set apart by the unbelievers, that all those who believed in those traditions should be put to death except the sign should come to pass, which had been given by Samuel the prophet.
16 And there were many, who had not believed the words of the prophets, who fell to the earth and became as if they were dead, for they knew that the great plan of destruction which they had laid for those who believed in the words of the prophets had been frustrated; for the sign which had been given was already at hand.
• • •
18 For they knew that the prophets had testified of these things for many years, and that the sign which had been given was already at hand; and they began to fear because of their iniquity and their unbelief.

22 And it came to pass that from this time forth there began to be lyings sent forth among the people, by Satan, to harden their hearts, to the intent that they might not believe in those signs and wonders which they had seen; but notwithstanding these lyings and deceivings the more part of the people did believe, and were converted unto the Lord.
• • •
26 And thus the ninety and second year did pass away, bringing glad tidings unto the people because of the signs which did come to pass, according to the words of the prophecy of all the holy prophets.

3 Nephi 8:
5 And it came to pass in the a*thirty and fourth year, in the first month, on the fourth day of the month, there arose a great storm, such an one as never had been known in all the land.
6 And there was also a great and terrible tempest; and there was terrible thunder, insomuch that it did shake the whole earth as if it was about to divide asunder.
7 And there were exceedingly sharp lightnings, such as never had been known in all the land.


Gordon B. Hinckley, “If Ye Are Prepared Ye Shall Not Fear,” Liahona, Nov 2005, 60–62

Chicago was ravaged by a terrible fire. Tidal waves have swamped areas of Hawaii. The San Francisco earthquake in 1906 ruined the city and took some 3,000 lives. The hurricane that hit Galveston, Texas, in 1900 killed 8,000. And more recently, as you know, has been the terrible tsunami of Southeast Asia, where thousands of lives were lost and where relief efforts are still needed.
How portentous are the words of revelation found in the 88th section of the Doctrine and Covenants concerning the calamities that should befall after the testimonies of the elders. The Lord says:
“For after your testimony cometh the testimony of earthquakes, that shall cause groanings in the midst of her, and men shall fall upon the ground and shall not be able to stand.
“And also cometh the testimony of the voice of thunderings, and the voice of lightnings, and the voice of tempests, and the voice of the waves of the sea heaving themselves beyond their bounds.
“And all things shall be in commotion; and surely, men’s hearts shall fail them; for fear shall come upon all people” (D&C 88:89–91).
How interesting are descriptions of the tsunami and the recent hurricanes in terms of the language of this revelation, which says, “The voice of the waves of the sea heaving themselves beyond their bounds.”……………………………….
What we have experienced in the past was all foretold, and the end is not yet. Just as there have been calamities in the past, we expect more in the future.

[LV Architect]

The calamities have a purpose: Judge the wicked and avenge the blood of the prophets and the saints. They are very literal.

Was the Flood symbolic? Was III Nephi 8 symbolic?

III Nephi 9 is OVERLY clear why the judgements come. It is repeated ad-nauseum.

that the blood of the prophets and the saints shall not come up any more unto me against them.

Rev 17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great cadmiration.

Rev 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

III Nephi 6 is the reason for and the precurser to III Nephi 8.

23 Now there were many of those who testified of the things pertaining to Christ who testified boldly, who were taken and put to death secretly by the judges, that the knowledge of their death came not unto the governor of the land until after their death.

28 And they did enter into a covenant one with another, yea, even into that covenant which was given by them of old, which covenant was given and administered by the devil, to combine against all righteousness.

29 Therefore they did combine against the people of the Lord, and enter into a covenant to destroy them, and to deliver those who were guilty of murder from the grasp of justice, which was about to be administered according to the law.

[kathyn]

Just as there have been calamities in the past, we expect more in the future.

NGL, not only do we expect more calamities in the future, we expect them more and more frequently (like a woman in travail). I believe that many of the signs are literal and if we have eyes to see and ears to hear, we will recognize them. The Lord expects us to know the signs, why else give the prophecies for them? He gave the signs of the times so that the faithful would recognize that the time of His coming is near. I do grant that "near" to us probably means different from what He means by "near".

I also know that the Lord provides types and shadows for events and we certainly have had precedent for earthquakes, whirlwinds and floods enough to know that we can expect real physical events and not just metaphors. And, as time goes by I expect that we'll get to experience first-hand some of these signs and destructions. The Lord is trying to get people's attention so we will repent, if possible. And if He has to smack us in the head with a board, He'll do it. I'm afraid the time for subtlety has passed. Then the destruction of the wicked will be sure.

[NoGreaterLove]

Thanks LV and Kat.
Carlos has a lot of insight when it comes to symbolic interpretation. I pay close attention when he posts. But like you guys said, the calamities are foretold, they are not symbolic, He means what He says. The testimony is going to be plain and simple so even the youngest child would understand. That way no one will be able to say, I did not know.

[Carlos]

Yes; I read this and I think you are on the right track unlike so many on this forum who seem to think the signs / woes are all literal. I think that they will be looking for signs that will never come because they "missed the mark" not unlike like the Jews of old. I wonder if those that think Revelations is literal also think that the earth was created in 6 days (i.e. 6, 24 hour time periods or 6000 years for that matter).

I would bet there were people saying the same thing just before Christ came: Lets see.

On the other side of the coin, NGL, there were many Jews who anxiously awaited their Messiah, but would not recognize Jesus because they were hell bent on their literal interpretation of a great King who would deliver them temporally from their oppressors. They certainly missed the boat!

Gordon B. Hinckley, “If Ye Are Prepared Ye Shall Not Fear,” Liahona, Nov 2005, 60–62

Chicago was ravaged by a terrible fire. Tidal waves have swamped areas of Hawaii. The San Francisco earthquake in 1906 ruined the city and took some 3,000 lives. The hurricane that hit Galveston, Texas, in 1900 killed 8,000. And more recently, as you know, has been the terrible tsunami of Southeast Asia, where thousands of lives were lost and where relief efforts are still needed.
How portentous are the words of revelation found in the 88th section of the Doctrine and Covenants concerning the calamities that should befall after the testimonies of the elders. The Lord says:
“For after your testimony cometh the testimony of earthquakes, that shall cause groanings in the midst of her, and men shall fall upon the ground and shall not be able to stand.
“And also cometh the testimony of the voice of thunderings, and the voice of lightnings, and the voice of tempests, and the voice of the waves of the sea heaving themselves beyond their bounds.
“And all things shall be in commotion; and surely, men’s hearts shall fail them; for fear shall come upon all people” (D&C 88:89–91).
How interesting are descriptions of the tsunami and the recent hurricanes in terms of the language of this revelation, which says, “The voice of the waves of the sea heaving themselves beyond their bounds.”……………………………….
What we have experienced in the past was all foretold, and the end is not yet. Just as there have been calamities in the past, we expect more in the future.

Does anyone doubt the reality and value of calamities to encourage people to turn to God? I certainly don't! You're missing my point about apocalyptic events. Let me give you a list again:

An earthquake which shakes the entire earth
All men (3billion) hiding in dens and rocks of mountains
Islands and mountains becoming mobile upon the face of the earth
The sun becoming black (literally turning off, not a garden variety eclipse)
Fiery hail which burns all green grass on the earth and 1/3 of trees
A star falls from heaven onto the rivers of the earth
A smokey bottomless pit opens up and locusts fly out to torment specific men
200 million men gather to fight a battle
2 apostles spit fire out of their mouths to kill enemies on the streets of Jerusalem

Look, I could go on, but you should get my point. Some how you have to rationalize that these events are not 100% literal and symbolism is involved. As an example, a star can't literally fall on to the earth, therefore it must be a comet or a meteor. You may rationalize to any degree you please, but most sane people will eventually find a rational explanation for some of these prophecies.
The apocalyptic examples which I give are events which should have already occurred during the last 1000 years and which will shortly occur during the sanctification segment of the 7th seal (DC 77). Considering these two timeline facts (as I see them), I have great reason to reconsider literal fulfillment. Others choose to shift timelines with overlap and other gimmicks in an effort to not abandon literal definitions of apocalyptic signs. They continue to anticipate the literal apocalyptic events listed above. Even though no current general authority validates that view. Instead they hang on to the opinions of past generations who were ignorant of technological advances of this day. As an example, Brigham Young gave no indication that flying locusts with faces of men, womens hair, tails like scorpions, and roar of lions might have been flying war machines. Yet today, we can visualize what those locusts might be. This same concept applies to many of the above cited apocalyptic events. The realities of our generation require revised interpretations for apocalyptic prophecy. The symbolic nature of God's language is the obvious place to search for new satisfying answers.

[NoGreaterLove]

Yes; I read this and I think you are on the right track unlike so many on this forum who seem to think the signs / woes are all literal. I think that they will be looking for signs that will never come because they "missed the mark" not unlike like the Jews of old. I wonder if those that think Revelations is literal also think that the earth was created in 6 days (i.e. 6, 24 hour time periods or 6000 years for that matter).

I would bet there were people saying the same thing just before Christ came: Lets see.

On the other side of the coin, NGL, there were many Jews who anxiously awaited their Messiah, but would not recognize Jesus because they were hell bent on their literal interpretation of a great King who would deliver them temporally from their oppressors. They certainly missed the boat!

Gordon B. Hinckley, “If Ye Are Prepared Ye Shall Not Fear,” Liahona, Nov 2005, 60–62

Chicago was ravaged by a terrible fire. Tidal waves have swamped areas of Hawaii. The San Francisco earthquake in 1906 ruined the city and took some 3,000 lives. The hurricane that hit Galveston, Texas, in 1900 killed 8,000. And more recently, as you know, has been the terrible tsunami of Southeast Asia, where thousands of lives were lost and where relief efforts are still needed.
How portentous are the words of revelation found in the 88th section of the Doctrine and Covenants concerning the calamities that should befall after the testimonies of the elders. The Lord says:
“For after your testimony cometh the testimony of earthquakes, that shall cause groanings in the midst of her, and men shall fall upon the ground and shall not be able to stand.
“And also cometh the testimony of the voice of thunderings, and the voice of lightnings, and the voice of tempests, and the voice of the waves of the sea heaving themselves beyond their bounds.
“And all things shall be in commotion; and surely, men’s hearts shall fail them; for fear shall come upon all people” (D&C 88:89–91).
How interesting are descriptions of the tsunami and the recent hurricanes in terms of the language of this revelation, which says, “The voice of the waves of the sea heaving themselves beyond their bounds.”……………………………….
What we have experienced in the past was all foretold, and the end is not yet. Just as there have been calamities in the past, we expect more in the future.

Does anyone doubt the reality and value of calamities to encourage people to turn to God? I certainly don't! You're missing my point about apocalyptic events. Let me give you a list again:

An earthquake which shakes the entire earth
All men (3billion) hiding in dens and rocks of mountains
Islands and mountains becoming mobile upon the face of the earth
The sun becoming black (literally turning off, not a garden variety eclipse)
Fiery hail which burns all green grass on the earth and 1/3 of trees
A star falls from heaven onto the rivers of the earth
A smokey bottomless pit opens up and locusts fly out to torment specific men
200 million men gather to fight a battle
2 apostles spit fire out of their mouths to kill enemies on the streets of Jerusalem

Look, I could go on, but you should get my point. Some how you have to rationalize that these events are not 100% literal and symbolism is involved. As an example, a star can't literally fall on to the earth, therefore it must be a comet or a meteor. You may rationalize to any degree you please, but most sane people will eventually find a rational explanation for some of these prophecies.
The apocalyptic examples which I give are events which should have already occurred during the last 1000 years and which will shortly occur during the sanctification segment of the 7th seal (DC 77). Considering these two timeline facts (as I see them), I have great reason to reconsider literal fulfillment. Others choose to shift time lines with overlap and other gimmicks in an effort to not abandon literal definitions of apocalyptic signs. They continue to anticipate the literal apocalyptic events listed above. Even though no current general authority validates that view. Instead they hang on to the opinions of past generations who were ignorant of technological advances of this day. As an example, Brigham Young gave no indication that flying locusts with faces of men, womens hair, tails like scorpions, and roar of lions might have been flying war machines. Yet today, we can visualize what those locusts might be. This same concept applies to many of the above cited apocalyptic events. The realities of our generation require revised interpretations for apocalyptic prophecy. The symbolic nature of God's language is the obvious place to search for new satisfying answers.

I believe in symbolism. I agree with this post to a limit. I agree that many of the prophecies were written with either the prophets best understanding of explaining what he saw such as the locusts in Rev. I also believe the Lord used symbolism to describe a lot of other things. The OT is very symbolic. But I think where you and I disagree (correct me if I am wrong) is I believe the symbolism in some cases is describing things that are not tangible such as feelings or emotions, repentance or sin, and things which are tangible such as earthquakes, stars falling from heaven, the moon turning to blood etc.
We seem to part when it comes to a belief on what an earthquake means. I believe it is really an earthquake and you believe it is something else not tangible.

[Carlos]

I believe in symbolism. But I think where you and I disagree (correct me if I am wrong) is I believe the symbolism in some cases is describing things that are not tangible such as feelings or emotions, repentance or sin, and things which are tangible such as earthquakes, stars falling from heaven, the moon turning to blood etc.
We seem to part when it comes to a belief on what an earthquake means. I believe it is really an earthquake and you believe it is something else not tangible.

The above list of apocalyptic events are not intangible NGL. They most likely are very real, yet their true definitions are hidden in symbolism. Review Matt 13 and you'll see the kingdom of God is symbolized as wheat, mustard seed, leaven, fish, pearls, treasure etc. The kingdom is not just feelings or emotions it is real and tangible. Each of those examples in Matt 13 describe various aspects of that kingdom. Understood by each reader according to his knowledge and understanding.
Are you implying that the statue that Daniel saw, the beasts, dragon, woman clothed in the sun standing on the moon and crown of stars, horns, etc are references to intangible feelings and emotions? Yes, you believe in symbolism, everyone does. Our difference is not just tangible vs intangible. Our difference is in were to draw the line. You see a sign like an earthquake or blackened sun and realize that something similar happened in scriptural history, therefore it will be literally fulfilled once again in like manner. Especially if someone you consider wise, has a like minded opinion. Obviously, we differ. I find examples of symbolism in scripture and try to apply them to end times prophecy. I am much more open minded to symbolic vs literal fulfillment of prophecy. I am willing to accept fulfillment when I see it. As an example, there will be plagues in the last days. I fully accept that pornography is such a plague.. And, if small pox spreads again, I will accept that as equal fulfillment of prophecy also. I'll accept it when I see it and will not shackle end times with preconceived opinions (mine or others) of what should occur. This is our time, we are living during this transitional time between the 6th and 7th seal. Our real life observations of history and current events should guide recognition of prophecy, not the opinions those who drove horse and buggy. And lest you accuse me of being apostate (like others have done), I fully accept the gospel of our prophets. I don't believe the Lord revealed the details of the apocalypse to them. On this matter, they struggled just like you and me.

[NoGreaterLove]

I don't believe the Lord revealed the details of the apocalypse to them. On this matter, they struggled just like you and me.

This is where we part. I believe they are the mouthpieces of God.

Let me explain that further. They are prophets, seers and revelators. So they have seen and understand much more than you or I, even the ones in the horse and buggies, even the one who live before the horse and buggy. Truth is revealed through the Holy Ghost, not through the television screen or ipod.

[Carlos]

I don't believe the Lord revealed the details of the apocalypse to them. On this matter, they struggled just like you and me.

This is where we part. I believe they are the mouthpieces of God.
Truth is revealed through the Holy Ghost,

Yep! And some times He chooses not to reveal things we want to know through his mouthpieces, so we struggle as did the prophets. I have diaries of my ancestors who were taught by the prophets that the end would come in their lifetimes. I see nothing wrong with God withholding knowledge. You obviously have another justification for your opinions regarding the matter.

[NoGreaterLove]

You obviously have another justification for your opinions regarding the matter.

You are absolutely correct. It is called the truth as given to us by the prophets of God.

[Carlos]

And some times He chooses not to reveal things we want to know through his mouthpieces, so we struggle as did the prophets. I have diaries of my ancestors who were taught by the prophets that the end would come in their lifetimes. I see nothing wrong with God withholding knowledge. You obviously have another justification for your opinions regarding the matter.

You are absolutely correct. It is called the truth as given to us by the prophets of God.

You are stubborn NGL. You are willing to throw logic out the door in the face of reality. I guess that is why you are willing to seriously entertain ideas like "Are the 10 tribes hiding under the Antarctic ice sheet?".


Hasta luego amigo.

[NoGreaterLove]

You are willing to throw logic

I do not find your reasoning logical. I do not post the words of the scriptures and prophets to convince you of anything. I know you are set in your beliefs. However, the rest who frequent this forum have the right to see what the prophets and scriptures have to say about these subjects. I post my opinion and once I posted my testimony of them. It is left up to each who read these things to decide for themselves.

[pjbrownie]

Yes, the prophets and apostles would say (usually prefacing with an opinion) especially in the late 19th Century, that "some now standing" would see the face of the Lord, or some such prophecy about the Second Coming being imminent. They had the misfortune of interpreting D&C 84, as well as the prophecy to Joseph Smith wherein he asked about seeing the fact of the Lord, and if he were to live to 1890 he would. They were exuberant and saw enemies at their doorsteps threatening to destroy them with the anti-polygamy laws.

It is apparent their understanding was incorrect. So let that stand. Let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater. Let's not extrapolate our own interpretation on signs when we have great descriptions from prophets like Brigham Young and Orson Pratt, or even Joseph Fielding Smith or Hugh B Brown (who say similar things). It's also apparent that since the 1970's certain depictions of prophecy have been largely absent from the discourse. What does that mean? It could mean that all that has been said has been said and we need to read what has been said. It could mean that in a worldwide church that more focused addresses on faith on necessary for the people. The same argument is said about Communism and secret combinations. I see nothing in that there is reversal of understanding about what an earthquake means, or signs in the heavens, to be something that relates ONLY to sin. Who are you to declare something is over that we need to pay no more heed to moons turning to blood (or appear as blood)? Until a prophet says it, I'm going to continue looking for moons turning to blood as a sign that still needs complete fulfillment.

I have been careful about certain opinions on TIMING; Joseph Smith was even rebuffed on this. But so far I have no reason to question the interpretation of WHAT the sign should be.