The judgments of God did stare them in the face!

[reese]

Great points, and thanks for sharing those verses. We should not be a fan of a prophet, or any leader, we should worship the Lord God with all our heart might mind and strength and seek our own personal witness as nephi, Lehi, Sam, Jacob, Enos, alma the younger and elder, ......... etc etc. And with that testimony of Jesus, we should then follow the Lords annointed and we will never be lead astray because we are in tune and have that unshakeable testimony that is recieved by personal and direct revelation which then allows us to discern truth from error. Perhaps this scripture is addressing all the social mormons, group think followers, prophet worshippers etc who follow because it's the in thing to do, they were raised that way, everyone they know believes that way, it's easy, etc. (hey it almost sounds like the true blue mormon republicans) But yet they still do not seek the Lord, do not seek their personal relationship which can lead to their calling and election etc. They not truly believe in personal revelation and prophecy. Perhaps even those who excercise their priesthood authority with no power.

Thank you Squally! Very well said. I think it is VERY important the we LDS's understand what is truely required of us. Otherwise the day may come when we are told by the Savior to depart because He doesn't know us, because we never knew Him.

[Original_Intent]

I think I understand your point. Many members don't understand the Atonement. If they did, they would speak with more reverence, more urgency about Him. If all of their spiritual light comes from the testimony of the Prophets and Apostles then they are living on borrowed light. The last days requires a personal witness of Christ to endure the coming trials.

Not only do the last days require a personal testimony of Jesus Christ but our enternal salvation depends on it.

D&C 76:98-102
98 And the glory of the telestial is one, even as the glory of the stars is one; for as one star differs from another star in glory, even so differs one from another in glory in the telestial world;
99 For these are they who are of Paul, and of Apollos, and of Cephas.
100 These are they who say they are some of one and some of another—some of Christ and some of John, and some of Moses, and some of Elias, and some of Esaias, and some of Isaiah, and some of Enoch;
101 But received not the gospel, neither the testimony of Jesus, neither the prophets, neither the everlasting covenant.
102 Last of all, these all are they who will not be gathered with the saints, to be caught up unto the church of the Firstborn, and received into the cloud.

The way I understand this is that "these are they" that go to the telestial kingdom. They have followed the prophets, true prophets at that, even Jesus Christ Himself. Yet "they recieved not the testimony of Jesus, neither the prophets, neither the everlasting covenant". How is it possible to "be of Christ" and yet not recieve the testimony of Jesus Christ? I guess it is possible to be "fan" of Christ, yet not a true disciple of Christ.

If all of our spiritual light and dealings with the Lord comes only through the prophet and twelve apostles, then we should be very concerned if that is enough. If we never receive the "testimony of Jesus" (which we can only get from Jesus Christ, through the Holy Ghost), then according to this scripture we will end up in the telestial kingdom!

Great points, and thanks for sharing those verses. We should not be a fan of a prophet, or any leader, we should worship the Lord God with all our heart might mind and strength and seek our own personal witness as nephi, Lehi, Sam, Jacob, Enos, alma the younger and elder, ......... etc etc. And with that testimony of Jesus, we should then follow the Lords annointed and we will never be lead astray because we are in tune and have that unshakeable testimony that is recieved by personal and direct revelation which then allows us to discern truth from error. Perhaps this scripture is addressing all the social mormons, group think followers, prophet worshippers etc who follow because it's the in thing to do, they were raised that way, everyone they know believes that way, it's easy, etc. (hey it almost sounds like the true blue mormon republicans) But yet they still do not seek the Lord, do not seek their personal relationship which can lead to their calling and election etc. They not truly believe in personal revelation and prophecy. Perhaps even those who excercise their priesthood authority with no power.

This is great. I have felt and I believe been inspired throughout my life that the value of any organized religion is to guide its members to a personal and real relationship with God. Many relgions interpose themselves between the member and God, and I think that is the definition of priestcraft. We should of course love, support and follow the prophet, but we should not stop at that, we should be getting our own revelation and acting accordingly. Throughout my life I have had many times where I stumbled and failed utterly at this. But it has to be the goal. We should not wait to be commanded (from SLC) in all things. We should be directly seeking the mind of the Lord and being engaged in our own assignments coming to us through heavenly channels - as well as filling the callings that come to us through the earthly organization. In fact, our "lengthening of our stride" in our callings that we get through the structure of the church is largely what qualifies us for more direct assignment. (My opinion)

[dewajack]

This has been interesting and many good points have been brought up. I have a few additional thoughts I'd like to add:

1) The parable of the 10 virgins is about the members of the Church. The fact that they are virgins tells me they aren't inactive members of the Church.

2) I presume the Prophet won't be coming to my door to tell me what job to take or who I should marry. Those kinds of decisions have always meant to be between the Lord and me. If he were to show up and give inspired counsel, I would most certainly heed.

3) The children of Israel were content to let Moses see the Lord, even though they had the invitation extended to them. They neglected that opportunity and we know the results.

4) Salvation has always been and will always be through Jesus Christ, "He employs no servant at the gate." Those of His time certainly followed the Prophets, kept the law, and knew it inside and out, but didn't follow Him.

5) With all of that being said, I sustain the Prophet and consider him a Christlike individual. However, I know I can go to the Lord and he can guide me and my family through the Spirit or however he chooses. When it comes to matters for the whole Church, which obviously includes me, the Lord won't go through me or anyone else but His chosen prophets.


Brigham Young said:

"What a pity it would be, if we were led by one man to utter destruction! Are you afraid of this? I am more afraid that this people have so much confidence in their leaders that they will not inquire for themselves of God whether they are led by him. I am fearful they settle down in a state of blind self-security, trusting their eternal destiny in the hands of their leaders with a reckless confidence that in itself would thwart the purposes of God in their salvation, and weaken the influence they could give to their leaders, did they know for themselves, by the revelations of Jesus, that they are led in the right way. Let every man and woman know, themselves, whether their leaders are walking in the path the Lord dictates, or not. This has been my exhortation continually." (JD 9:150)


"I do not wish any Latter-day Saint in this world, nor in heaven, to be satisfied with anything I do, unless the Spirit of the Lord Jesus Christ, the spirit of revelation, makes them satisfied...Suppose that the people were heedless, that they manifested no concern with regard to the things of the kingdom of God, but threw the whole burden upon the leaders of the people, saying, 'If the brethren who take charge of matters are satisfied, we are,' this is not pleasing in the sight of the Lord." (JD 3:45)

George Q. Cannon, Counselor to three Church Presidents, expressed it thus: "Do not, brethren, put your trust in man though he be a bishop, an apostle, or a president. If you do, they will fail you at some time or place; they will do wrong or seem to, and your support be gone;" (Millennial Star 53:658-59, quoted in Gospel Truth, 1:319)

[NoGreaterLove]

or seem to

I think that kind of says where he was going with this.

But I totally agree with you. The Lord wants us to have a testimony of the doctrines taught by the brethren. He does not want us to be slothful and not do the work of obtaining our own testimonies. Else how could we ever be a God?
Sometimes the trial of our faith is required first before we gain the testimony. If we believe the prophet to be the mouthpiece of God then our faith should be exercised as such so we may gain a testimony of the words he speaks.

[AngelPalmoni]

or seem to

I think that kind of says where he was going with this.

But I totally agree with you. The Lord wants us to have a testimony of the doctrines taught by the brethren. He does not want us to be slothful and not do the work of obtaining our own testimonies. Else how could we ever be a God?
Sometimes the trial of our faith is required first before we gain the testimony. If we believe the prophet to be the mouthpiece of God then our faith should be exercised as such so we may gain a testimony of the words he speaks.

Gospel of John... easy stuff, Gospel of Abraham requires a bit more work to understand... Are there 2 different gospels!? Pretty much I would say.

[reese]

This has been interesting and many good points have been brought up. I have a few additional thoughts I'd like to add:

1) The parable of the 10 virgins is about the members of the Church. The fact that they are virgins tells me they aren't inactive members of the Church.

2) I presume the Prophet won't be coming to my door to tell me what job to take or who I should marry. Those kinds of decisions have always meant to be between the Lord and me. If he were to show up and give inspired counsel, I would most certainly heed.

3) The children of Israel were content to let Moses see the Lord, even though they had the invitation extended to them. They neglected that opportunity and we know the results.

4) Salvation has always been and will always be through Jesus Christ, "He employs no servant at the gate." Those of His time certainly followed the Prophets, kept the law, and knew it inside and out, but didn't follow Him.

5) With all of that being said, I sustain the Prophet and consider him a Christlike individual. However, I know I can go to the Lord and he can guide me and my family through the Spirit or however he chooses. When it comes to matters for the whole Church, which obviously includes me, the Lord won't go through me or anyone else but His chosen prophets.

Very good points dewajack. I'm especially interested in #3. I have pondered that scripture often.

D&C 84:22-24
22 For without this no man can see the face of God, even the Father, and live.
23 Now this Moses plainly taught to the children of Israel in the wilderness, and sought diligently to sanctify his people that they might behold the face of God;
24 But they hardened their hearts and could not endure his presence; therefore, the Lord in his wrath, for his anger was kindled against them, swore that they should not enter into his rest while in the wilderness, which rest is the fulness of his glory.

I have wondered if we as a people are not much different than Israel with Moses. We seem to be more than happy to have a prophet "go up to the Lord and see His face", and yet we don't want to do what is required to do the same thing ourselves. Most are happy to live vicariously through a prophet. I wonder if our condemnation will be the same.