The judgments of God did stare them in the face!

[reese]

Don't get me wrong. I believe that Thomas Monson is the man the Lord would have as president of His church. I sustain him as a prophet, seer and revelator. I just think this mantra we love to chant : "Follow the prophet", should be changed to "Follow the Savior". I suspect that President Monson would agree with me on that.

[loquaciousmomma]

How do we make these quotes fit with the ones above?

It is a very apparent fact that we have traveled far and wide in the past 20 years. What the future will bring I do not know. But if we drift as far afield from fundamental things in the next 20 years, what will be left of the foundation laid by the Prophet Joseph Smith? It is easy for one who observes to see how the apostasy came about in the primitive church of Christ. Are we not traveling the same road? (Joseph Fielding Smith Journal, 28 December 1938)

I would like to read the entire passage to see the context. Could the 'we' be the membership and not the presidency?

Brigham Young taught:
There is nothing that would so soon weaken my hope and discourage me as to see this people in full fellowship with the world, and receive no more persecution from them because they are one with them. In such an event, we might bid farewell to the Holy Priesthood with all its blessings, privileges and aids to exaltations, principalities and powers in the eternities of the Gods. (JD 10:32)
*(Elder Packer made it pretty clear recently, that while we have the authority of the priesthood, we are lacking the power.)

Again, the we is the church body. We are too comfortable. We take the priesthood for granted. As for BY's statement, it is similar to this scripture:

35 And now, my beloved brethren, if this be the case that these things are true which I have spoken unto you, and God will show unto you, with power and great glory at the last day, that they are true, and if they are true has the day of miracles ceased?
• • •
37 Behold I say unto you, Nay; for it is by faith that miracles are wrought; and it is by faith that angels appear and minister unto men; wherefore, if these things have ceased wo be unto the children of men, for it is because of unbelief, and all is vain. (Moroni 7:35,37)

Pres. Young was warning of the state of the priesthood if the body of the church turned away from the Lord and sought acceptance of the world instead.

Young also stated,"The First Presidency have of right a great influence over this people; and if we should get out of the way and lead this people to destruction, what a pity it would be! How can you know whether we lead you correctly or not? Can you know by any other power than that of the Holy Ghost? I have uniformly exhorted the people to obtain this living witness, each for themselves; then no man on earth can lead them astray." (JD 6:100)

Of course, we are taught to obtain a personal testimony of the teachings of the prophets. Nevertheless, our safety lies in obedience, even if we don't receive an answer. We are expected to walk into the darkness a little at times to fully appreciate the light.

George Q. Cannon taught:

Do not, brethren, put your trust in man though he be a Bishop, an apostle or a president; if you do, they will fail you at some time or place; they will do wrong or seem to, and your support will be gone; but if we lean on God, He will NEVER fail us. When men and women depend upon GOD ALONE and trust in HIM ALONE, their faith will not be shaken if the highest in the Church should step aside. (DW 43:322 [Mar 7, 1891]).[/quote]

Prophets are men. They are human. They err. Putting our trust in them completely would be foolish, because we could lose our faith if they make a move we find against what we are taught. (As so many people did when Joseph did things they could not square with the behavior of a Godly man.) We should put our trust in God alone, for He is the only one who can save us. The prophet cannot save us. We are, however, to follow the prophet. In so doing, we ARE putting our trust and dependency on the Lord. The prophet is the Lord's way of getting His message to us directly. It has always been so.

[NoGreaterLove]

There was a talk in sacrament meeting in our branch today addressing the subject of following the prophet. The speaker quoted a story related by Marion G. Romney of a discussion he had with Heber J. Grant. I googled it and found a Teachings of the Living Prophets student manual lesson entitled The Lord Will Never Permit the Living Prophet to Lead the Church Astray.

Here it is:

(3-7) The Lord Will Never Permit the Living Prophet to Lead the Church Astray

The following are three testimonies which show clearly that the Lord will never allow his prophet to lead the Church out of the path of truth:

“I bear you my solemn witness that we have a living prophet, seer, and revelator. We are not dependent only upon the revelations given in the past . . . we have a mouthpiece to whom God is revealing his mind and will. God will never permit him to lead us astray. As has been said, God would remove us out of our place if we should attempt to do it. You have not concern. Let the management and government of God, then, be with the Lord. Do not try to find fault with the management and affairs that pertain to him alone and by revelation through his prophet.” (Harold B. Lee, “The Place of the Living Prophet, Seer, and Revelator,” in Charge, p. 112.)

“I remember years ago when I was a bishop I had President [Heber J.] Grant talk to our ward. After the meeting, I drove him home. . . . When we got to his home I got out of the car and went up on the porch with him. Standing by me, he put his arm over my shoulder and said: ‘My boy, you always keep your eye on the President of the Church, and if he ever tells you to do anything, and it is wrong, and you do it, the Lord will bless you for it.’ Then with a twinkle in his eye, he said, ‘But you don’t need to worry. The Lord will never let his mouthpiece lead the people astray.’” (Marion G. Romney, in Conference Report, Oct. 1960, p. 78.)

“I say to Israel, the Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as president of this Church to lead you astray. It is not in the programme. It is not in the mind of God. If I were to attempt that the Lord would remove me out of my place, and so He will any other man who attempts to lead the children of men astray from the oracles of God and from their duty.” (Wilford Woodruff, in “General Conference,” Millennial Star, 24 Nov. 1890 [52:741]; or The Discourses of Wilford Woodruff, pp. 212–13.)

A man who is out of harmony with the Lord will never lead the Lord’s church. God will not permit it. The following quotations make that clear:

“Safety is in following divinely appointed leadership and counsel. . . .

“The keys of this power and authority center in the president of the High Priesthood of the Church. It is not given to any other man to so represent God here upon the earth. . . .

“God will not suffer his Church, established for the last time in this the Dispensation of the Fulness of Times when a restitution of all things is to be accomplished, to be led by a fallen prophet, or by someone whom he does not want.” (Delbert L. Stapley, in Conference Report, Apr. 1952, pp. 49–50.)

“I testify in the name of Israel’s God that He will not suffer the head of the Church, him whom He has chosen to stand at the head, to transgress His laws and apostatize; the moment he should take a course that would in time lead to it, God would take him away. Why? Because to suffer a wicked man to occupy that position would be to allow, as it were, the fountain to become corrupted, which is something He will never permit.” (Joseph F. Smith, in Journal of Discourses, 24:192.)

.

How do we make these quotes fit with the ones above?

It is a very apparent fact that we have traveled far and wide in the past 20 years. What the future will bring I do not know. But if we drift as far afield from fundamental things in the next 20 years, what will be left of the foundation laid by the Prophet Joseph Smith? It is easy for one who observes to see how the apostasy came about in the primitive church of Christ. Are we not traveling the same road? (Joseph Fielding Smith Journal, 28 December 1938)

Apostacy did not come from the apostles, it came from the members. "we" is talking about members of the church, not the twelve apostles.

Brigham Young taught:
There is nothing that would so soon weaken my hope and discourage me as to see this people in full fellowship with the world, and receive no more persecution from them because they are one with them. In such an event, we might bid farewell to the Holy Priesthood with all its blessings, privileges and aids to exaltations, principalities and powers in the eternities of the Gods. (JD 10:32)
*(Elder Packer made it pretty clear recently, that while we have the authority of the priesthood, we are lacking the power.)

Once again BY is talking about the members, not the apostles.

Young also stated,"The First Presidency have of right a great influence over this people; and if we should get out of the way and lead this people to destruction, what a pity it would be! How can you know whether we lead you correctly or not? Can you know by any other power than that of the Holy Ghost? I have uniformly exhorted the people to obtain this living witness, each for themselves; then no man on earth can lead them astray." (JD 6:100)

He did not say they were leading us astray, he said it would be a pity IF they did and that we would know through the Holy Ghost.

George Q. Cannon taught:

Do not, brethren, put your trust in man though he be a Bishop, an apostle or a president; if you do, they will fail you at some time or place; they will do wrong or seem to, and your support will be gone; but if we lean on God, He will NEVER fail us. When men and women depend upon GOD ALONE and trust in HIM ALONE, their faith will not be shaken if the highest in the Church should step aside. (DW 43:322 [Mar 7, 1891]).

This is from the same talk by GQC:
Thus God will continue to raise up and inspire suitable men so that we shall never be without an efficient leader.

And evidently he was not aware of what BY had to say about it, and he definitely was not aware of what Pres. David O. McKay said.
Supporting Church Leaders

President David O. McKay said, "The greatest safeguard we have for unity and strength in the Church is found in the priesthood, by honoring and respecting it." fn It follows, then, that we have the sacred obligation to teach our children to support and to sustain Church leaders. Without the conviction that leaders are called by revelation, a member could not fully support them. Indeed, a member's spiritual survival depends on that conviction, for there will always be detractors whose purpose is to destroy faith and undermine the Church. The father of a sixteen-year-old boy recounted the following experience:

Recently the father of Bill, my son's best friend, had some serious problems with the Church. As a result, my son, a sophomore in high school, was continuously bombarded with criticism about the Church. Although he lacked the background to effectively address the man's concerns, he didn't hesitate to stand up for the truth. The positive side of it was that these challenges provided numerous opportunities for my son and me to have some lengthy gospel discussions.

After one particularly confronting evening, my son raised some interesting questions. "Dad, what about blind obedience?"

"Sounds like you had a pretty tough night," I responded.

"It was awful. I didn't know what to say to him."

I reached for a recent copy of the Ensign. "This might help. Let me read you something that Elder Packer said in general conference: 'Latter-day Saints are not obedient because they are compelled to be obedient. They are obedient because they know certain spiritual truths and have decided, as an expression of their own individual agency, to obey the commandments of God. . . . Those who talk of blind obedience may appear to know many things, but they do not understand the doctrines of the gospel. There is an obedience that comes from a knowledge of the truth that transcends any external form of control. We are not obedient because we are blind, we are obedient because we can see.' fn The Lord never expects blind obedience from anyone. We can go to him at any time and get the answers that we desire."

"But Dad, his arguments sound so logical. When I tell him I know the gospel is true, he just laughs at me. How can you tell the difference between someone who is really struggling to know the truth and someone who is out to undermine the Church?"

"There are several ways. First, Jesus said in 3 Nephi 11:29, 'He that hath the spirit of contention is not of me, but is of the devil.' That tells us something about who's behind an argument. Second, Elder Packer said that 'two things characterize [antagonists]: they are always irritated by the word obedience, and always they question revelation.'" fn

"But Dad, we know that Church leaders aren't perfect. Bill's dad said it's foolish to follow someone when he's made a mistake."

"Yes, our leaders sometimes do make mistakes. But we have a sacred responsibility to follow them anyway."

"How is that different from obeying blindly?"

"Brigham Young said that he once found himself being critical of the way the Prophet Joseph handled some financial matters. Even though those thoughts lasted less than sixty seconds, the 'spirit of revelation manifested to [him] that if [he] was to harbor a thought in [his] heart that Joseph could be wrong in anything, [he] would begin to lose confidence in him' to the point that he could not believe anything that Joseph said. Brigham concluded, 'Though I [knew] that Joseph was a human being and subject to err, still it was none of my business to look after his faults. . . . It was not my prerogative to call him in question with regard to any act of his life. He was God's servant, and not mine.' fn You see, Brigham Young understood that you cannot criticize God's prophet without criticizing God."

"Does that mean we just ignore mistakes, even if they're serious?"

"Son, let me give you another example. Assume for just a minute that you and some of your friends are climbing a mountain. It's a dangerous undertaking, so you tie a rope around each of your waists to protect yourselves, just in case someone falls. The leader of the group is an excellent mountain climber. He has climbed this mountain many times before, and he knows the way. Now suppose you're almost to the top when the leader steps on something he thinks is solid, only to find that it isn't. He slips, and there he is, hanging over the edge from the rope.

"What is your responsibility? Do you say, 'I can't believe it. You're supposed to be our leader. You're supposed to know the way. How could anyone be so stupid as to slip and fall like that in front of everybody? You obviously don't deserve to lead this group!' So you take out a pocket knife, cut the rope, and say, 'So long!'"

"Dad, that's sick!"

"Of course it's sick. It's also obvious what you'd do. You'd pull him back up, make certain that he's okay, and encourage him to continue leading you. Why? Because in spite of his mistake, he's still the best qualified person to help you reach the top."

"Okay. I have another question. The Prophet Joseph said that a prophet is only a prophet when he's acting as such. How do you know whether the President of the Church is speaking as a prophet or as just a man?"

"Son, I've found that if you apply two simple tests, you'll never be deceived. First, the statement will be consistent with what's taught in the scriptures. Second, the Spirit will bear witness to you that the doctrine is true. You have the right to receive a spiritual witness from the Lord about the truthfulness of any doctrine taught, regardless of the source. These are just two of the safeguards the Lord has prepared against deception."


(R. Wayne Boss and Leslee S. Boss, Are My Children Going to Make It? Real Help for Teaching the Gospel in the Home [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1991], 61 - 62.)

[NoGreaterLove]

I suspect that President Monson would agree with me on that.

I would bet you are wrong.

[reese]

I think the danger in believing that the prophet can never lead us astray, is that it creates a false sense of security. If we KNOW that everything the prophet tells us is from the Lord (even if it is), but we just KNOW it because we have been told they cannot lead us astray, and we trust that alone. That creates a very dangerous situation for us. We become more dependant on the prophet than the Lord. When something happens, we wait to see what the prophet says, when we should be going to the Lord immediately with our questions and concerns.

We know we are on the road to heaven, because the prophet would tell us if it were otherwise. President Packer tells us that while we have the authority of the priesthood, we don't have the power of the priesthood. Why is that? What good is it to have the authority of the priesthood and not the power? Its the power that can save us, not the authority. Even the "church" leaders of Christs day had authority. Could it be that we as a church (most members anyway) do not have the power of the priesthood because we are so contentedly following the prophet, that we forget we are supose to seek out and follow the Lord. After all the Lord is the ONLY one who can give anyone power, or salvation.

[NoGreaterLove]

I think the danger in believing that the prophet can never lead us astray, is that it creates a false sense of security.

Then you do not have a testimony that President Monson is called of God.

[reese]

I suspect that President Monson would agree with me on that.

I would bet you are wrong.

So you really think that if President Monson were approached and asked if we should teach the members of this church to follow the Lord or follow the prophet, he would say we should teach them to follow the prophet?

Any true disciple of Christ will ALWAYS point people to Christ. They will never say "follow me and I will lead you back." They will always teach people to follow Christ.

[NoGreaterLove]

Reese
You are forgetting that the prophet has the power to seal on earth and what he seals on earth is sealed in Heaven. The Lord trusts him with these keys. If God trust him, that is good enough for me. If I have questions I go to the Lord and search out the scriptures which are by the way the writings of the prophets.
If the prophet comes out and tells us to do something, I do it immediately and then go to the Lord for confirmation if I have questions. Either you believe he is the prophet or not. If he is, then he is the Lords mouthpiece when he gives direction to the church.
Anyone who tries to undermine that is against God.
Undermining the authority of the prophet and apostles and making light of following their counsel it one of the biggest tools Satan is using to deceive the members of the church today. The church is built upon the foundation of the prophet and apostles and if you destroy faith in the foundation, you destroy the church. Satan know this and is actively trying to do it by creating doubt.
I will not play that game.

[clarkkent14]

I suspect that President Monson would agree with me on that.

I would bet you are wrong.

So you really think that if President Monson were approached and asked if we should teach the members of this church to follow the Lord or follow the prophet, he would say we should teach them to follow the prophet?

Any true disciple of Christ will ALWAYS point people to Christ. They will never say "follow me and I will lead you back." They will always teach people to follow Christ.

You're separating the two... I look at them as one and the same. I always will seek confirmation for myself no matter what the prophet says, but I don't consider them separate. I take this verse very literally: "What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same."

When Christ came the first time one of the first things He did was vindicate His prophets: "3 Nephi 11:10 Behold, I am Jesus Christ, whom the prophets testified shall come into the world."

I'm sure the Second Coming will have similar language... vindicating Thomas, Gordon, etc...

Even Nephi had to gain a testimony of his father as a prophet: "1 Nephi 2:16 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, being exceedingly young, nevertheless being large in stature, and also having great desires to know of the mysteries of God, wherefore, I did cry unto the Lord; and behold he did visit me, and did soften my heart that I did believe all the words which had been spoken by my father; wherefore, I did not rebel against him like unto my brothers."

I would bet President Monson takes very serious the mantle of being God's mouth piece on earth... and would gladly admit that.

[reese]

I would bet President Monson takes very serious the mantle of being God's mouth piece on earth... and would gladly admit that.

Yes and then I bet he would make sure we all know that it is the Savior we all, President Monson included, follow. I agree that the two should not be seperated as you said above. The problem I see in this church is that we members seperate the two. We seem to be quite content to follow the prophet and put the Lord on the back burner. Next fast and testimony meeting you should listen extra careful. Just see how often a testimony is born of the prophet vs. the Savior. Almost every testimony I hear includes the Savior(if at all) at the very end, like an after thought. And yet they go on and on about the prophet, the twelve, and every other thing in their life.

It makes me so very sad for our Savior. We should all be ashamed.

[clarkkent14]

I would bet President Monson takes very serious the mantle of being God's mouth piece on earth... and would gladly admit that.

Yes and then I bet he would make sure we all know that it is the Savior we all, President Monson included, follow. I agree that the two should not be seperated as you said above. The problem I see in this church is that we members seperate the two. We seem to be quite content to follow the prophet and put the Lord on the back burner. Next fast and testimony meeting you should listen extra careful. Just see how often a testimony is born of the prophet vs. the Savior. Almost every testimony I hear includes the Savior(if at all) at the very end, like an after thought. And yet they go on and on about the prophet, the twelve, and every other thing in their life.

It makes me so very sad for our Savior. We should all be ashamed.

I think I understand your point. Many members don't understand the Atonement. If they did, they would speak with more reverence, more urgency about Him. If all of their spiritual light comes from the testimony of the Prophets and Apostles then they are living on borrowed light. The last days requires a personal witness of Christ to endure the coming trials.

2 Nephi 2:8 Wherefore, how great the importance to make these things known unto the inhabitants of the earth, that they may know that there is no flesh that can dwell in the presence of God, asave it be through the merits, and mercy, and grace of the Holy Messiah, who blayeth down his life according to the flesh, and taketh it again by the power of the Spirit, that he may bring to pass the cresurrection of the dead, being the first that should rise.

Alma 5:26 And now behold, I say unto you, my brethren, if ye have experienced a change of heart, and if ye have felt to sing the song of redeeming love, I would ask, can ye feel so now?"

I often have that feeling, how urgent this message is to the world, and I've wanted to sing or shout it from the rooftops!

[loquaciousmomma]

Any true disciple of Christ will ALWAYS point people to Christ. They will never say "follow me and I will lead you back." They will always teach people to follow Christ.

You are right! We are admonished to follow Christ. I reaffirm that when we follow the prophet, we ARE following Christ.

I found a scripture that mirrors perfectly what we have been taught by modern prophets about this subject, in Deuteronomy 18:

18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.
20 But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.
21 And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the Lord hath not spoken?
22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

This concept of the Lord removing prophets who stray is clearly a very old teaching. It is one we can be sure of.

Here is another scripture:

D&C 84: 36 (36-38)
36 For he that receiveth my servants receiveth me;

The prophet is the Lord's direct servant. When we follow the prophet, we are following Christ. Christ is at the head of this church, the prophet is His earthly representative.

Doctrine and Covenants 1:14

And the arm of the Lord shall be revealed; and the day cometh that they who will not hear the voice of the Lord, neither the voice of his servants, neither give heed to the words of the prophets and apostles, shall be cut off from among the people;

2 Nephi 26:8

But behold, the righteous that hearken unto the words of the prophets, and destroy them not, but look forward unto Christ with steadfastness for the signs which are given, notwithstanding all persecution—behold, they are they which shall not perish.

Mosiah 15:22
22 And now, the resurrection of all the prophets, and all those that have believed in their words, or all those that have kept the commandments of God, shall come forth in the first resurrection; therefore, they are the first resurrection.

Reese, I realize it seems counterintuitive to make following the prophet just as important as following personal revelation and scriptures, but it has always been the way of the Lord to speak through men he has set apart for the purpose of witnessing to and instructing the children of men.

Elder Neal A Maxwell told us there would be a day when :

But make no mistake about it, brothers and sisters; in the months and years ahead, events will require of each member that he or she decide whether or not he or she will follow the First Presidency. Members will find it more difficult to halt longer between two opinions (see 1 Kings 18:21).

President Marion G. Romney said, many years ago, that he had "never hesitated to follow the counsel of the Authorities of the Church even though it crossed my social, professional, or political life" (CR, April 1941, p. 123). This is a hard doctrine, but it is a particularly vital doctrine in a society which is becoming more wicked. In short, brothers and sisters, not being ashamed of the gospel of Jesus Christ includes not being ashamed of the prophets of Jesus Christ.

It seems clear to me that the day he foresaw is here. It is already happening, especially with regard to the subject of homosexuality. Many people can't square their personal beliefs on this subject with those of the leadership of the church, and as such have chosen to leave.

I am sure it will be harder to follow in the coming days. I expect there will be a teaching that shocks my system and which I will have to pray fervently to accept. My intention is to follow anyway when that day arrives. I pray that I will have the strength to endure whatever is coming...

You are also right that we as members take the Savior for granted. We are told that we are eligible to receive the second comforter which is the visit of the Savior Himself when we are worthy of it. That should be our goal. I must repent of not taking this promise seriously enough. I need to refocus and do all I can to be ready for this wonderful opportunity.

[reese]

I think I understand your point. Many members don't understand the Atonement. If they did, they would speak with more reverence, more urgency about Him. If all of their spiritual light comes from the testimony of the Prophets and Apostles then they are living on borrowed light. The last days requires a personal witness of Christ to endure the coming trials.

Not only do the last days require a personal testimony of Jesus Christ but our enternal salvation depends on it.

D&C 76:98-102
98 And the glory of the telestial is one, even as the glory of the stars is one; for as one star differs from another star in glory, even so differs one from another in glory in the telestial world;
99 For these are they who are of Paul, and of Apollos, and of Cephas.
100 These are they who say they are some of one and some of another—some of Christ and some of John, and some of Moses, and some of Elias, and some of Esaias, and some of Isaiah, and some of Enoch;
101 But received not the gospel, neither the testimony of Jesus, neither the prophets, neither the everlasting covenant.
102 Last of all, these all are they who will not be gathered with the saints, to be caught up unto the church of the Firstborn, and received into the cloud.

The way I understand this is that "these are they" that go to the telestial kingdom. They have followed the prophets, true prophets at that, even Jesus Christ Himself. Yet "they recieved not the testimony of Jesus, neither the prophets, neither the everlasting covenant". How is it possible to "be of Christ" and yet not recieve the testimony of Jesus Christ? I guess it is possible to be "fan" of Christ, yet not a true disciple of Christ.

If all of our spiritual light and dealings with the Lord comes only through the prophet and twelve apostles, then we should be very concerned if that is enough. If we never receive the "testimony of Jesus" (which we can only get from Jesus Christ, through the Holy Ghost), then according to this scripture we will end up in the telestial kingdom!

[loquaciousmomma]

I think I understand your point. Many members don't understand the Atonement. If they did, they would speak with more reverence, more urgency about Him. If all of their spiritual light comes from the testimony of the Prophets and Apostles then they are living on borrowed light. The last days requires a personal witness of Christ to endure the coming trials.

Not only do the last days require a personal testimony of Jesus Christ but our enternal salvation depends on it.

D&C 76:98-102
98 And the glory of the telestial is one, even as the glory of the stars is one; for as one star differs from another star in glory, even so differs one from another in glory in the telestial world;
99 For these are they who are of Paul, and of Apollos, and of Cephas.
100 These are they who say they are some of one and some of another—some of Christ and some of John, and some of Moses, and some of Elias, and some of Esaias, and some of Isaiah, and some of Enoch;
101 But received not the gospel, neither the testimony of Jesus, neither the prophets, neither the everlasting covenant.
102 Last of all, these all are they who will not be gathered with the saints, to be caught up unto the church of the Firstborn, and received into the cloud.

The way I understand this is that "these are they" that go to the telestial kingdom. They have followed the prophets, true prophets at that, even Jesus Christ Himself. Yet "they recieved not the testimony of Jesus, neither the prophets, neither the everlasting covenant". How is it possible to "be of Christ" and yet not recieve the testimony of Jesus Christ? I guess it is possible to be "fan" of Christ, yet not a true disciple of Christ.

If all of our spiritual light and dealings with the Lord comes only through the prophet and twelve apostles, then we should be very concerned if that is enough. If we never receive the "testimony of Jesus" (which we can only get from Jesus Christ, through the Holy Ghost), then according to this scripture we will end up in the telestial kingdom!

I think you are mistaken thinking that the people who end up in the telestial kingdom followed the prophets. This scripture says that they did not follow the prophets. What is says is that they picked quotes from various prophets and focused on them, but did not dedicate themselves to the Lord or His servants, the prophets, unconditionally.

[reese]

I guess I need to clarify. I do not have a propblem following the prophet. I do follow the prophet. My problem is that many people think that following the prophet is enough. They follow the prophet, but stop short of going all the way to the Lord.

Good find on the scripture in Deuteronomy Lmomma.

I agree with you...we are in the day when we are required to pick our side. I think there is an even bigger "division" coming, as Christ says in 3 Nephi. My fear is that what if this big test comes and we don't get counsel from the prophet (for any reason...break down in communication system maybe), What if we have not learned to come to the Lord. How will we know what to do. It is always much easier to have someone tell us what to do, especially if that someone is a prophet of God. What if part of the test is having the spirit be our guide....we have been told it will be.
Ultimately we will have to be able to come in the presence of the Lord if we are to be saved. No one can do that for us. In the end it is between us and the Lord. Thank goodness for true prophets and anyone else who speaks by the power of the holy ghost, who will teach us this eternal truth.

[reese]

I think I understand your point. Many members don't understand the Atonement. If they did, they would speak with more reverence, more urgency about Him. If all of their spiritual light comes from the testimony of the Prophets and Apostles then they are living on borrowed light. The last days requires a personal witness of Christ to endure the coming trials.

Not only do the last days require a personal testimony of Jesus Christ but our enternal salvation depends on it.

D&C 76:98-102
98 And the glory of the telestial is one, even as the glory of the stars is one; for as one star differs from another star in glory, even so differs one from another in glory in the telestial world;
99 For these are they who are of Paul, and of Apollos, and of Cephas.

What do you think this means then? I don't know what else it would mean, other than they are the followers of...(insert name)

100 These are they who say they are some of one and some of another—some of Christ and some of John, and some of Moses, and some of Elias, and some of Esaias, and some of Isaiah, and some of Enoch;
101 But received not the gospel, neither the testimony of Jesus, neither the prophets, neither the everlasting covenant.
102 Last of all, these all are they who will not be gathered with the saints, to be caught up unto the church of the Firstborn, and received into the cloud.

The way I understand this is that "these are they" that go to the telestial kingdom. They have followed the prophets, true prophets at that, even Jesus Christ Himself. Yet "they recieved not the testimony of Jesus, neither the prophets, neither the everlasting covenant". How is it possible to "be of Christ" and yet not recieve the testimony of Jesus Christ? I guess it is possible to be "fan" of Christ, yet not a true disciple of Christ.

If all of our spiritual light and dealings with the Lord comes only through the prophet and twelve apostles, then we should be very concerned if that is enough. If we never receive the "testimony of Jesus" (which we can only get from Jesus Christ, through the Holy Ghost), then according to this scripture we will end up in the telestial kingdom!

I think you are mistaken thinking that the people who end up in the telestial kingdom followed the prophets. This scripture says that they did not follow the prophets. What is says is that they picked quotes from various prophets and focused on them, but did not dedicate themselves to the Lord or His servants, the prophets, unconditionally.

[reese]

It seems to me that D&C 76 is saying that there will be those who say they followed God's properly ordained, authentic messengers of the gospel, that will find themselves in the telestial kingdom.

D&C 76: 98-101
98 And the glory of the telestial is one, even as the glory of the stars is one; for as one star differs from another star in glory, even so differs one from another in glory in the telestial world;
99 For these are they who are of Paul, and of Apollos, and of Cephas.
100 These are they who say they are some of one and some of another—some of Christ and some of John, and some of Moses, and some of Elias, and some of Esaias, and some of Isaiah, and some of Enoch;
101 But received not the gospel, neither the testimony of Jesus, neither the prophets, neither the everlasting covenant.

All those named (Paul, Apollos, Cephas, Christ, John, Moses, Elias, Esaias, Ishaiah and Enoch) were true messengers or authorized prophets of God. In the list is the Son of God Himself. These claims are not being made by those who were following Buddha, Mohammed, Confucius, Vishnu or Kirshna. They are being made by saints, who thought themselves justified because of their belief in authorized messengers of God. Obviously something more is required of us than just "following the prophet".

Thats the way I understand this scripture anyway.

[NoGreaterLove]

101 But received not the gospel, neither the testimony of Jesus, neither the prophets, neither the everlasting covenant.

This is the key.
Those he was speaking about are the many religions throughout the world who say they follow those names listed but are not of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and do not take upon themselves His name through the everlasting covenant.
It is distinguishing the false churches from the true church. The everlasting covenant being the difference which is the priesthood.

[reese]

101 But received not the gospel, neither the testimony of Jesus, neither the prophets, neither the everlasting covenant.

This is the key.
Those he was speaking about are the many religions throughout the world who say they follow those names listed but are not of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and do not take upon themselves His name through the everlasting covenant.
It is distinguishing the false churches from the true church. The everlasting covenant being the difference which is the priesthood.

I'm afraid I see it the other way around. These are people who have the everlasting covenant yet they receive it not(ie. having the authority of the priesthood, but not the power). People who were/are following true prophets of God who were/are teaching the true gospel to them.

I can't think of any other churches around the world who claim they follow Paul, or John, or Enoch, or Isaiah etc. The only people who would have claimed to follow them are the people that would have belonged to their congregations, the people who would have been following "their" prophet for "their" time. I think we can assume that Enoch or Paul, for example, taught people who had access to the "everlasting covenant" or the priesthood.

Yes it is true there are christian churches now who do not have the everlasting covenant available to them through their churches. But what of all the other prophets named besides Jesus Christ? These are people who are, and were, following true prophets of God. But just following the prophet is not enough.


In fact just following Jesus, or "being of" His group of followers, is not enough. We must receive the testimony of Him (along with His gospel, prophets, and everlasting covenant). It sounds important enough that we ought to make sure we know what that means, and do it!

[loquaciousmomma]

It seems to me that D&C 76 is saying that there will be those who say they followed God's properly ordained, authentic messengers of the gospel, that will find themselves in the telestial kingdom.

D&C 76: 98-101
98 And the glory of the telestial is one, even as the glory of the stars is one; for as one star differs from another star in glory, even so differs one from another in glory in the telestial world;
99 For these are they who are of Paul, and of Apollos, and of Cephas.
100 These are they who say they are some of one and some of another—some of Christ and some of John, and some of Moses, and some of Elias, and some of Esaias, and some of Isaiah, and some of Enoch;
101 But received not the gospel, neither the testimony of Jesus, neither the prophets, neither the everlasting covenant.

All those named (Paul, Apollos, Cephas, Christ, John, Moses, Elias, Esaias, Ishaiah and Enoch) were true messengers or authorized prophets of God. In the list is the Son of God Himself. These claims are not being made by those who were following Buddha, Mohammed, Confucius, Vishnu or Kirshna. They are being made by saints, who thought themselves justified because of their belief in authorized messengers of God. Obviously something more is required of us than just "following the prophet".

Thats the way I understand this scripture anyway.

The key here is "these are they who say they are some of one and some of another" they are not committed to the whole truth. They pick and choose what they will believe. Sure, it applies to those under the covenant who don't receive the fullness, but it can also be as NGL said, those who are of other churches. There are churches of St. Mary, churches of God, churches of John the Baptist. There are churches who focus on one thing or another.

I don't think this scripture chastises those who follow the prophets, as it says that the ones consigned to the telestial kingdom 'received not' the 'prophets', meaning all of them, not just the ones they agreed with. They are aligning themselves with and identifying themselves with a particular prophet, instead of accepting them all as mouthpieces and working to accept the entire gospel.

[SAM]

Chica

I am positive you believe in the scriptures and do not have to go to the Lord all of the time to get his confirmation that each teaching is true. I will bet you put them to a test just like Alma said and then gain your testimony after the trial of your faith.
The scriptures are the writings of the prophets and apostles.
Our modern day prophets and apostles teachings require the same devotion.

Agreed, NGL. I don't need a confirmation about everything I read in the scriptures, but that probably has to do with the fact that each time I read something, the Spirit is confirming its truth as I read it. The same goes for listening to our modern prophets and apostles. As I listen, I feel the Spirit and I have already received my confirmation. However, if there is something I hear that doesn't sit well with me, or something I read in the scriptures that I don't understand or gives me a stupor of thought, it is up to me to go to the Lord and work it out. I can't wait around for something else to be said from the pulpit that makes it alright. Most of the time, I am sure it is just a lack of understanding on my part, or I need more truth to fill in missing gaps. It's always a work in progress.

It seems everyone here agrees that ultimately it is Christ we look to for our salvation. The question is how much of a role does the prophet play. I look at this way: The general authorities are leading the general membership of this church, which means their stewardship is over a varied group of people, whose spiritual progression spans the entire spectrum of progression. What they say has to apply to all types of people, in all types of circumstances. If people think this is the end all be all of the counsel, prophecy and revelation we receive from the Lord they will be stunted in their progression. We need to understand, as a people, that the prophet, the ordinances, the doctrines of the gospel all point to Christ. It's not enough to simply "follow the prophet" in his general teaching to the entire membership of the church. We need to be daily and hourly in contact via prayer, pondering and reading the scriptures AND modern day teachings of our prophets, seers and revelators, so we may all receive the individual spiritual guidance we need which will lead us to our own personal witness of Christ. Then, and only then, we will truly be saved.

Therefore (and sorry this is so long), I think the scripture reese initially posted probably refers not only to people not listening, following and obeying the counsel of the general authorities, but also refers to people individually not seeking prophecy and revelation in their own lives. If the majority of the church is not doing this, we lack power. The general authorities can only do so much to lead us to Christ and salvation. We have to do the rest. I am afraid the general body of the church may not be reaching high enough. I think that is reese's fear as well, but I won't speak for her.

I do believe President Monson is called of God and I was so inspired by his recent talk in the general RS meeting. I am certainly not ready to jump ship, but I am concerned about the ability of the church to call down the powers of heaven for protection and to build Zion. I am the first person who needs to work harder, but I think most all of us do or we will be part of the group who are hewn down in the coming destruction. That will come as a shock to those who thought they were following the prophet properly.

Ok, soapbox, over.

[NoGreaterLove]

Chica
Great explanation! I totally agree.

[reese]

It seems everyone here agrees that ultimately it is Christ we look to for our salvation. The question is how much of a role does the prophet play. I look at this way: The general authorities are leading the general membership of this church, which means their stewardship is over a varied group of people, whose spiritual progression spans the entire spectrum of progression. What they say has to apply to all types of people, in all types of circumstances. If people think this is the end all be all of the counsel, prophecy and revelation we receive from the Lord they will be stunted in their progression. We need to understand, as a people, that the prophet, the ordinances, the doctrines of the gospel all point to Christ. It's not enough to simply "follow the prophet" in his general teaching to the entire membership of the church. We need to be daily and hourly in contact via prayer, pondering and reading the scriptures AND modern day teachings of our prophets, seers and revelators, so we may all receive the individual spiritual guidance we need which will lead us to our own personal witness of Christ. Then, and only then, we will truly be saved.

Therefore (and sorry this is so long), I think the scripture reese initially posted probably refers not only to people not listening, following and obeying the counsel of the general authorities, but also refers to people individually not seeking prophecy and revelation in their own lives. If the majority of the church is not doing this, we lack power. The general authorities can only do so much to lead us to Christ and salvation. We have to do the rest. I am afraid the general body of the church may not be reaching high enough. I think that is reese's fear as well, but I won't speak for her.

Yes Chica, you can speak for me here.
I completely agree with you.

[loquaciousmomma]

Chicafoom: You make a wonderful point, and did a great job of bridging the divide between the two sides of this conversation!

As for the general membership being ready to 'abide the day', I think that is the purpose of the cleansing and the difficult days we are being warned are coming. We are in need of chastening and strengthening. The refiner's fire will be going on high to prod us into the growth we are capable of.

It is not going to be pleasant. We are going to be given the same sort of stretching our forbears had to endure.

[Squally]

I think I understand your point. Many members don't understand the Atonement. If they did, they would speak with more reverence, more urgency about Him. If all of their spiritual light comes from the testimony of the Prophets and Apostles then they are living on borrowed light. The last days requires a personal witness of Christ to endure the coming trials.

Not only do the last days require a personal testimony of Jesus Christ but our enternal salvation depends on it.

D&C 76:98-102
98 And the glory of the telestial is one, even as the glory of the stars is one; for as one star differs from another star in glory, even so differs one from another in glory in the telestial world;
99 For these are they who are of Paul, and of Apollos, and of Cephas.
100 These are they who say they are some of one and some of another—some of Christ and some of John, and some of Moses, and some of Elias, and some of Esaias, and some of Isaiah, and some of Enoch;
101 But received not the gospel, neither the testimony of Jesus, neither the prophets, neither the everlasting covenant.
102 Last of all, these all are they who will not be gathered with the saints, to be caught up unto the church of the Firstborn, and received into the cloud.

The way I understand this is that "these are they" that go to the telestial kingdom. They have followed the prophets, true prophets at that, even Jesus Christ Himself. Yet "they recieved not the testimony of Jesus, neither the prophets, neither the everlasting covenant". How is it possible to "be of Christ" and yet not recieve the testimony of Jesus Christ? I guess it is possible to be "fan" of Christ, yet not a true disciple of Christ.

If all of our spiritual light and dealings with the Lord comes only through the prophet and twelve apostles, then we should be very concerned if that is enough. If we never receive the "testimony of Jesus" (which we can only get from Jesus Christ, through the Holy Ghost), then according to this scripture we will end up in the telestial kingdom!

Great points, and thanks for sharing those verses. We should not be a fan of a prophet, or any leader, we should worship the Lord God with all our heart might mind and strength and seek our own personal witness as nephi, Lehi, Sam, Jacob, Enos, alma the younger and elder, ......... etc etc. And with that testimony of Jesus, we should then follow the Lords annointed and we will never be lead astray because we are in tune and have that unshakeable testimony that is recieved by personal and direct revelation which then allows us to discern truth from error. Perhaps this scripture is addressing all the social mormons, group think followers, prophet worshippers etc who follow because it's the in thing to do, they were raised that way, everyone they know believes that way, it's easy, etc. (hey it almost sounds like the true blue mormon republicans) But yet they still do not seek the Lord, do not seek their personal relationship which can lead to their calling and election etc. They not truly believe in personal revelation and prophecy. Perhaps even those who excercise their priesthood authority with no power.