The judgments of God did stare them in the face!

[reese]

I read this scripture last night and it hit me like ton of bricks.

Helaman 4:23
-23 And because of their iniquity the church had begun to dwindle; and they began to disbelieve in the spirit of prophecy and in the spirit of revelation; and the judgments of God did stare them in the face.

[loquaciousmomma]

I think we especially need to be careful of the "they began to disbelieve in the spirit of prophecy and in the spirit of revelation" part here on this forum. It is easy to become so frustrated with the seeming lack of action on the part of the GA's with regard to liberty which can lead to apostate sentiments.

When I was first 'waking up' I searched out groups of like minded individuals and found at least one that claimed that the leaders of the church were apostates because, were they not, they would be speaking more about the gadiantons, the constitution, and liberty.

If we still believe in prophecy, then we must trust the First Presidency is doing what the Lord asks of them. Instead of wishing they would do what we want them to, we need to work on our own relationship with the Lord so that we will be ready to receive whatever guidance we need to take care of our families.

These are perilous times and we need the Prophet, we cannot afford to turn away from him!

[clarkkent14]

I think we especially need to be careful of the "they began to disbelieve in the spirit of prophecy and in the spirit of revelation" part here on this forum. It is easy to become so frustrated with the seeming lack of action on the part of the GA's with regard to liberty which can lead to apostate sentiments.

When I was first 'waking up' I searched out groups of like minded individuals and found at least one that claimed that the leaders of the church were apostates because, were they not, they would be speaking more about the gadiantons, the constitution, and liberty.

If we still believe in prophecy, then we must trust the First Presidency is doing what the Lord asks of them. Instead of wishing they would do what we want them to, we need to work on our own relationship with the Lord so that we will be ready to receive whatever guidance we need to take care of our families.

These are perilous times and we need the Prophet, we cannot afford to turn away from him!

Amen.

I read this scripture last night and it hit me like ton of bricks.

Helaman 4:23
-23 And because of their iniquity the church had begun to dwindle; and they began to disbelieve in the spirit of prophecy and in the spirit of revelation; and the judgments of God did stare them in the face.

Thanks for pointing that out

[reese]

These are perilous times and we need the Prophet, we cannot afford to turn away from him!

As of late I have been feeling like it needs to be more like : These are perilous times and we need the Lord, we cannot afford to turn away from Him!

[natasha]

Whenever we feel somehow at odds with our leaders, we shouldn't pray as to whether they are right or wrong....rather....we should pray to be on the same page.

[reese]

Your right Natasha. I believe that we can just go to the Lord for answers. We don't have to wait and hope the prophet says something. The Lord is more than willing to answer our prayers, if we will just go to Him in faith.

[hedgehog]

Good scripture thanks for sharing.

About America I use the analogy of someone who starts running red lights. By the fifth or sixth time of getting through unscathed their mind will be telling them each time it must be a smaller and smaller threat yet in reality each time the random chance to have an accident keeps getting larger and larger.

[loquaciousmomma]

These are perilous times and we need the Prophet, we cannot afford to turn away from him!

As of late I have been feeling like it needs to be more like : These are perilous times and we need the Lord, we cannot afford to turn away from Him!

Touche.

It doesn't have to be either or, though. The prophet is put here to be the Lord's mouthpiece, we need his counsel in addition to personal revelation.

[Legacy]

Reading through this thread, I am reminded of a scene from the movie The Other Side of Heaven. A group of people are in a boat. The eldest of the group says something to the effect of that one group might be praying for the wind to blow one way while yet another group prays for the wind blow the opposite. At these time, they should pray for a good wind.

I feel that sometimes we get so caught up in the problems facing our own country that we forget that the Prophet and GA's are trying to watch over the flock worldwide. While every country has similar issues of sorts, not every situation can be handled the same way. Silence from those watching over us does not always mean a lack of caring or concern. It could be those moments where instead of raising our voices, we soften our tongue so we may hear guidance from the Spirit.

[friendsofthe]

My two cents. Our leaders are doing what the Lord would have them do. They are completely aware of the problems we face with constitutional issues and secret combinations in this country. They saw it coming back before many of us were born and spoke out about what needed to happen to turn back the tide. Men like David O. McKay, Ezra Taft Benson and J. Rubin Clark did their best to awaken their generation and rally them to action. Then there came a day when Harold B. Lee asked Ezra Taft Benson to stop “tweaking the tail of the beast”. I believe this was because further actions by the brethren would only succeed in painting a target on the church and bringing persecution on the Lord’s people. The brethren now, as always, follow a policy of being “subject to the powers that be, until he reigns whose right it is to reign, and subdues all enemies under his feet”, D&C 58:22.

In my humble opinion the constitution will not be saved by reforming Washington D.C. Rather, the church will still be holding up the constitution to the people of this nation after the cleansing that will soon come. At that time the good people of this land, member and non-member alike will rally around the constitution and freedom. We will see the New Jerusalem come into existence and America will once again be a land of freedom to which the ten tribe and Israel will be gathered in preparation for the Lord’s appearance.

[Squally]

So who is this scripture talking too. Why put that in there if it isn't a warning to us in our day?? We believe the scriptures are the words of God, so God spoke for a purpose, now who is he talking too, who is he warning. Obviously he is talking to the church as that is stated. So when God is talking to the church who is included. Might God be addressing the general membership while excluding the leadership since we have been told that the prophet and apostles will never do anything wrong or else God would remove them from office.

[NoGreaterLove]

A statement was made on the other thread speaking about Joseph of Egypt. It talked about Noah building a grainery instead of an ark and Joseph building an ark instead of a grainery. How much good would that have done for society if they would have prepared but in the wrong way?
Our modern day prophets are preparing exactly what the Lord has commanded and are building the arks and graineries of our day and they will be just perfect for the situation. We would be wise to trust them so we are not caught short.

[reese]

Might God be addressing the general membership while excluding the leadership since we have been told that the prophet and apostles will never do anything wrong or else God would remove them from office.

I would have to agree with you on this Squally. I think God is very much talking to the general membership in scriptures like this.

I do have a question though. I hesitate to ask it because I know it will be opening a can of worms...but I'm going to ask anyway. How do we know that the Prophet and apostles will never lead the church astray? I mean is it doctrine? I know that Wilford Woddruff is the one who said it. But I have also found statements to the contrary by a few other leaders. So I guess I am a little confused as to whether it is actually considered to be "doctrine" of the church.

[NoGreaterLove]

I know new ideas etc. are discussed in a meeting among the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve before they come to light. So we can be assured that the majority of the quorum is in agreement, including the Prophet before major changes occur.

[reese]

NoGreaterLove, I'm not sure what you are saying. Are you saying that because the president of the church and the apostles have to be in agreement before making decisions, that they can't lead the church astray?

[NoGreaterLove]

Some help me on this one. I remember reading one of the prophets saying as long as we stay with the majority of the twelve we will never be led astray.

Wilford Woodruff speaks of this process in his journal. I thought by posting this, it would help you to understand that the minds and spirits of the twelve and the first presidency are involved in the decision making process. So coupling that with the promise I stated above it should help.

[SAM]

Great scripture, reese. I think we sometimes forget that the spirit of prophecy doesn't just lie in the GA's, but can and should be in us as the lay membership of the church as well. Yes, we sustain the GA's as prophets, and as such, we should always consider their words as hopefully being revelation. However, it still behooves us to receive a testimony of the gospel and the words that come from the mouths of the prophets, seers and revelators. We need to go to the Lord for those confirmations and testimonies.

I think the jury is out on whether or not the church can be led astray. I don't believe there is an official doctrine stating one way or the other. There are quotes from GA's that go both ways. I think it will always be the safest road to listen to the prophet's voice and then call upon the Lord and receive a testimony of all things directly from Him, thereby becoming prophets ourselves (little p, of course). After all, the Prophet is a mouthpiece and a representative, not our mediator. Our ultimate salvation is between ourselves and the Lord.

[NoGreaterLove]

Chica

I am positive you believe in the scriptures and do not have to go to the Lord all of the time to get his confirmation that each teaching is true. I will bet you put them to a test just like Alma said and then gain your testimony after the trial of your faith.
The scriptures are the writings of the prophets and apostles.
Our modern day prophets and apostles teachings require the same devotion.

[Mark]

Some help me on this one. I remember reading one of the prophets saying as long as we stay with the majority of the twelve we will never be led astray.

Wilford Woodruff speaks of this process in his journal. I thought by posting this, it would help you to understand that the minds and spirits of the twelve and the first presidency are involved in the decision making process. So coupling that with the promise I stated above it should help.

All of the prophets have been clear that the keys of the Priesthood will not be taken from the earth again until those keys are delivered back to the Savior at AOA where all are to give an accounting. Those keys will remain in tact with the recognized leadership of the kingdom here on earth until that point. I can't think of any Prophet that has said otherwise.

John Taylor speaking of this wonderful Priesthood gathering at AOA said:

"All who have held the keys of priesthood will then have to give an account to those from whom they received them. They will unite together in a general council to give an accounting of their stewardships, and as in the various ages men have received their power to administer from those who had previously held the keys thereof, there will be a general accounting.. hence the elders give an account to presidents, and those presidents and the seventies give an account to the twelve apostles; the twelve to the First Presidency; and they to Joseph, from whom they, and the twelve, received their priesthood. Joseph delivers his authority to Peter, who held the keys before him, and delivered them to him; and Peter to Moses and Elias, who endowed him with this authority on the Mount; and they to those from whom they received them.

And thus the worlds affairs will be regulated and put right, the restitution of all things be accomplished, and the kingdom of God ushered in. The earth will be delivered from under the curse, resume its paradisaical glory, and all things pertaining to its restoration be fulfilled."

I anxiously await that time.

[Like]

Thanks for posting that great quote Mark. I am thankful the prophets and their testimonies.

[NoGreaterLove]

Mark
It has been good seeing you around lately.

[Mark]

I appreciate that NGL. Thanks as well Mazal. I was reading some quotes from Joseph and other Prophets concerning AOA and all the events planned there and as I did so, I realized that all the petty things we often get so bogged down with concerning this babylonian world become really quite insignificant compared to the glorious things we have in store for us as Saints if we will only endure. Satans agenda that is so often a focus of our attention here will be virtually meaningless when we are able to participate in the wonderful events of the restitution of all things in preparation for the redemption of Zion. That is a subject that deserves more of our attention and focus.

[loquaciousmomma]

There was a talk in sacrament meeting in our branch today addressing the subject of following the prophet. The speaker quoted a story related by Marion G. Romney of a discussion he had with Heber J. Grant. I googled it and found a Teachings of the Living Prophets student manual lesson entitled The Lord Will Never Permit the Living Prophet to Lead the Church Astray.

Here it is:

(3-7) The Lord Will Never Permit the Living Prophet to Lead the Church Astray

The following are three testimonies which show clearly that the Lord will never allow his prophet to lead the Church out of the path of truth:

“I bear you my solemn witness that we have a living prophet, seer, and revelator. We are not dependent only upon the revelations given in the past . . . we have a mouthpiece to whom God is revealing his mind and will. God will never permit him to lead us astray. As has been said, God would remove us out of our place if we should attempt to do it. You have not concern. Let the management and government of God, then, be with the Lord. Do not try to find fault with the management and affairs that pertain to him alone and by revelation through his prophet.” (Harold B. Lee, “The Place of the Living Prophet, Seer, and Revelator,” in Charge, p. 112.)

“I remember years ago when I was a bishop I had President [Heber J.] Grant talk to our ward. After the meeting, I drove him home. . . . When we got to his home I got out of the car and went up on the porch with him. Standing by me, he put his arm over my shoulder and said: ‘My boy, you always keep your eye on the President of the Church, and if he ever tells you to do anything, and it is wrong, and you do it, the Lord will bless you for it.’ Then with a twinkle in his eye, he said, ‘But you don’t need to worry. The Lord will never let his mouthpiece lead the people astray.’” (Marion G. Romney, in Conference Report, Oct. 1960, p. 78.)

“I say to Israel, the Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as president of this Church to lead you astray. It is not in the programme. It is not in the mind of God. If I were to attempt that the Lord would remove me out of my place, and so He will any other man who attempts to lead the children of men astray from the oracles of God and from their duty.” (Wilford Woodruff, in “General Conference,” Millennial Star, 24 Nov. 1890 [52:741]; or The Discourses of Wilford Woodruff, pp. 212–13.)

A man who is out of harmony with the Lord will never lead the Lord’s church. God will not permit it. The following quotations make that clear:

“Safety is in following divinely appointed leadership and counsel. . . .

“The keys of this power and authority center in the president of the High Priesthood of the Church. It is not given to any other man to so represent God here upon the earth. . . .

“God will not suffer his Church, established for the last time in this the Dispensation of the Fulness of Times when a restitution of all things is to be accomplished, to be led by a fallen prophet, or by someone whom he does not want.” (Delbert L. Stapley, in Conference Report, Apr. 1952, pp. 49–50.)

“I testify in the name of Israel’s God that He will not suffer the head of the Church, him whom He has chosen to stand at the head, to transgress His laws and apostatize; the moment he should take a course that would in time lead to it, God would take him away. Why? Because to suffer a wicked man to occupy that position would be to allow, as it were, the fountain to become corrupted, which is something He will never permit.” (Joseph F. Smith, in Journal of Discourses, 24:192.)

If we believe this is truly the Lord's church, and, as someone mentioned earlier on this thread, we have been promised the priesthood will never be taken from the earth again, then it is simply illogical to question the prophet, his counselors, or the twelve. They are the Lord's appointed mouthpiece.

Either the church is true, or it isn't.

Either we believe in modern day revelation through an appointed mouthpiece or we don't.

We can't say we believe in the Book of Mormon and then question the prophet.

[NoGreaterLove]

There was a talk in sacrament meeting in our branch today addressing the subject of following the prophet. The speaker quoted a story related by Marion G. Romney of a discussion he had with Heber J. Grant. I googled it and found a Teachings of the Living Prophets student manual lesson entitled The Lord Will Never Permit the Living Prophet to Lead the Church Astray.

Here it is:

(3-7) The Lord Will Never Permit the Living Prophet to Lead the Church Astray

The following are three testimonies which show clearly that the Lord will never allow his prophet to lead the Church out of the path of truth:

“I bear you my solemn witness that we have a living prophet, seer, and revelator. We are not dependent only upon the revelations given in the past . . . we have a mouthpiece to whom God is revealing his mind and will. God will never permit him to lead us astray. As has been said, God would remove us out of our place if we should attempt to do it. You have not concern. Let the management and government of God, then, be with the Lord. Do not try to find fault with the management and affairs that pertain to him alone and by revelation through his prophet.” (Harold B. Lee, “The Place of the Living Prophet, Seer, and Revelator,” in Charge, p. 112.)

“I remember years ago when I was a bishop I had President [Heber J.] Grant talk to our ward. After the meeting, I drove him home. . . . When we got to his home I got out of the car and went up on the porch with him. Standing by me, he put his arm over my shoulder and said: ‘My boy, you always keep your eye on the President of the Church, and if he ever tells you to do anything, and it is wrong, and you do it, the Lord will bless you for it.’ Then with a twinkle in his eye, he said, ‘But you don’t need to worry. The Lord will never let his mouthpiece lead the people astray.’” (Marion G. Romney, in Conference Report, Oct. 1960, p. 78.)

“I say to Israel, the Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as president of this Church to lead you astray. It is not in the programme. It is not in the mind of God. If I were to attempt that the Lord would remove me out of my place, and so He will any other man who attempts to lead the children of men astray from the oracles of God and from their duty.” (Wilford Woodruff, in “General Conference,” Millennial Star, 24 Nov. 1890 [52:741]; or The Discourses of Wilford Woodruff, pp. 212–13.)

A man who is out of harmony with the Lord will never lead the Lord’s church. God will not permit it. The following quotations make that clear:

“Safety is in following divinely appointed leadership and counsel. . . .

“The keys of this power and authority center in the president of the High Priesthood of the Church. It is not given to any other man to so represent God here upon the earth. . . .

“God will not suffer his Church, established for the last time in this the Dispensation of the Fulness of Times when a restitution of all things is to be accomplished, to be led by a fallen prophet, or by someone whom he does not want.” (Delbert L. Stapley, in Conference Report, Apr. 1952, pp. 49–50.)

“I testify in the name of Israel’s God that He will not suffer the head of the Church, him whom He has chosen to stand at the head, to transgress His laws and apostatize; the moment he should take a course that would in time lead to it, God would take him away. Why? Because to suffer a wicked man to occupy that position would be to allow, as it were, the fountain to become corrupted, which is something He will never permit.” (Joseph F. Smith, in Journal of Discourses, 24:192.)

If we believe this is truly the Lord's church, and, as someone mentioned earlier on this thread, we have been promised the priesthood will never be taken from the earth again, then it is simply illogical to question the prophet, his counselors, or the twelve. They are the Lord's appointed mouthpiece.

Either the church is true, or it isn't.

Either we believe in modern day revelation through an appointed mouthpiece or we don't.

We can't say we believe in the Book of Mormon and then question the prophet.

Wonderful quotes. Thanks so much. The truth for all of us to head.

[reese]

There was a talk in sacrament meeting in our branch today addressing the subject of following the prophet. The speaker quoted a story related by Marion G. Romney of a discussion he had with Heber J. Grant. I googled it and found a Teachings of the Living Prophets student manual lesson entitled The Lord Will Never Permit the Living Prophet to Lead the Church Astray.

Here it is:

(3-7) The Lord Will Never Permit the Living Prophet to Lead the Church Astray

The following are three testimonies which show clearly that the Lord will never allow his prophet to lead the Church out of the path of truth:

“I bear you my solemn witness that we have a living prophet, seer, and revelator. We are not dependent only upon the revelations given in the past . . . we have a mouthpiece to whom God is revealing his mind and will. God will never permit him to lead us astray. As has been said, God would remove us out of our place if we should attempt to do it. You have not concern. Let the management and government of God, then, be with the Lord. Do not try to find fault with the management and affairs that pertain to him alone and by revelation through his prophet.” (Harold B. Lee, “The Place of the Living Prophet, Seer, and Revelator,” in Charge, p. 112.)

“I remember years ago when I was a bishop I had President [Heber J.] Grant talk to our ward. After the meeting, I drove him home. . . . When we got to his home I got out of the car and went up on the porch with him. Standing by me, he put his arm over my shoulder and said: ‘My boy, you always keep your eye on the President of the Church, and if he ever tells you to do anything, and it is wrong, and you do it, the Lord will bless you for it.’ Then with a twinkle in his eye, he said, ‘But you don’t need to worry. The Lord will never let his mouthpiece lead the people astray.’” (Marion G. Romney, in Conference Report, Oct. 1960, p. 78.)

“I say to Israel, the Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as president of this Church to lead you astray. It is not in the programme. It is not in the mind of God. If I were to attempt that the Lord would remove me out of my place, and so He will any other man who attempts to lead the children of men astray from the oracles of God and from their duty.” (Wilford Woodruff, in “General Conference,” Millennial Star, 24 Nov. 1890 [52:741]; or The Discourses of Wilford Woodruff, pp. 212–13.)

A man who is out of harmony with the Lord will never lead the Lord’s church. God will not permit it. The following quotations make that clear:

“Safety is in following divinely appointed leadership and counsel. . . .

“The keys of this power and authority center in the president of the High Priesthood of the Church. It is not given to any other man to so represent God here upon the earth. . . .

“God will not suffer his Church, established for the last time in this the Dispensation of the Fulness of Times when a restitution of all things is to be accomplished, to be led by a fallen prophet, or by someone whom he does not want.” (Delbert L. Stapley, in Conference Report, Apr. 1952, pp. 49–50.)

“I testify in the name of Israel’s God that He will not suffer the head of the Church, him whom He has chosen to stand at the head, to transgress His laws and apostatize; the moment he should take a course that would in time lead to it, God would take him away. Why? Because to suffer a wicked man to occupy that position would be to allow, as it were, the fountain to become corrupted, which is something He will never permit.” (Joseph F. Smith, in Journal of Discourses, 24:192.)

.

How do we make these quotes fit with the ones above?

It is a very apparent fact that we have traveled far and wide in the past 20 years. What the future will bring I do not know. But if we drift as far afield from fundamental things in the next 20 years, what will be left of the foundation laid by the Prophet Joseph Smith? It is easy for one who observes to see how the apostasy came about in the primitive church of Christ. Are we not traveling the same road? (Joseph Fielding Smith Journal, 28 December 1938)

Brigham Young taught:
There is nothing that would so soon weaken my hope and discourage me as to see this people in full fellowship with the world, and receive no more persecution from them because they are one with them. In such an event, we might bid farewell to the Holy Priesthood with all its blessings, privileges and aids to exaltations, principalities and powers in the eternities of the Gods. (JD 10:32)
*(Elder Packer made it pretty clear recently, that while we have the authority of the priesthood, we are lacking the power.)

Young also stated,"The First Presidency have of right a great influence over this people; and if we should get out of the way and lead this people to destruction, what a pity it would be! How can you know whether we lead you correctly or not? Can you know by any other power than that of the Holy Ghost? I have uniformly exhorted the people to obtain this living witness, each for themselves; then no man on earth can lead them astray." (JD 6:100)

George Q. Cannon taught:

Do not, brethren, put your trust in man though he be a Bishop, an apostle or a president; if you do, they will fail you at some time or place; they will do wrong or seem to, and your support will be gone; but if we lean on God, He will NEVER fail us. When men and women depend upon GOD ALONE and trust in HIM ALONE, their faith will not be shaken if the highest in the Church should step aside. (DW 43:322 [Mar 7, 1891]).