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Submission to secular authority.

Posted: September 19th, 2010, 10:11 am
by NoGreaterLove
This is long, so I started a new thread in case anyone has questions about the 12th article of faith.

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SUBMISSION TO SECULAR AUTHORITY

ARTICLE 12—We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.

Introductory—It is but reasonable to expect of a people professing the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and claiming membership in the one accepted and divinely invested Church, that they manifest in practise the virtues that their precepts inculcate. True, we may look in vain for perfection among those even who make the fullest claims to a religious life; but we have a right to expect in their creed ample requirements concerning the most approved course of action, and in their lives, sincere and earnest effort toward the practical realization of their professions. Religion, to be of service and worthy of acceptance, must be of wholesome influence in the individual lives and temporal affairs of its adherents. Among other virtues the Church in its teachings should impress the duty of a law-abiding course; and the people should show forth the effect of such precepts in their probity as citizens of the nation and the community of which they are part.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints makes emphatic declaration of its belief and precepts regarding the duty of its members toward the laws of the land, and sustains its position by the authority of specific revelation in ancient as in present times. Moreover, the people are confident that when the true story of their rise and progress as an established body of religious worshipers is fully known, the loyalty of the Church and the patriotic devotion of its members will be vindicated and extolled by the world in general, as now by the few unprejudiced investigators who have studied with honest purpose the history of this remarkable organization.

Obedience to Authority Enjoined by Scripture—During the patriarchal period, when the head of the family possessed virtually the power of judge and king over his household, the authority of the ruler and the rights of the family were respected. Consider the instance of Hagar, the "plural" wife of Abram and the handmaid of Sarai. Jealousy and ill-feeling had arisen between Hagar and her mistress, the senior wife of the patriarch. Abram listened to the complaint of Sarai, and, recognizing her authority over Hagar, who, though his wife, was still the servant of Sarai, said: "Behold, thy maid is in thy hand; do to her as it pleaseth thee." Then, as the mistress dealt harshly with her servant, Hagar fled into the wilderness; there she was visited by an angel of the Lord, who addressed her thus: "Hagar, Sarai's maid, whence camest thou, and whither wilt thou go? And she said, I flee from the face of my mistress Sarai. And the angel of the Lord said unto her, Return to thy mistress, and submit thyself under her hands." fn Observe that the heavenly messenger recognized the authority of the mistress over the bond-woman, even though the latter had been given the rank of wifehood in the family.

The filial submission of Isaac to the will of his father, even to the extent of readiness to yield his life fn on the altar of sacrifice, is evidence of the sanctity with which the authority of the family ruler was regarded. It may appear, as indeed it has been claimed, that the requirement made of Abraham by the Lord, as a test of faith in the matter of demanding his son's life as a sacrifice, was a violation of law and therefore opposed to righteous government. The claim is poorly placed in view of the fact that the patriarchal head was possessed of full authority over the members of his household, with power extending even to judgment of life or death. fn

In the days of the exodus, when the people of Israel were ruled by a theocracy, the Lord gave divers laws and commandments for the government of the nation; among them we read: "Thou shalt not revile the gods, nor curse the ruler of thy people." fn Judges were appointed by divine direction. Moses, in reiterating the Lord's commands, charged the people to this effect: "Judges and officers shalt thou make thee in all thy gates, which the Lord thy God giveth thee, throughout thy tribes: and they shall judge the people with just judgment." fn It is significant that the judges were so highly regarded as to be called gods, to which fact Jesus referred when threatened with stoning because He had said He was the Son of God.

When the people wearied of God's direct administration and clamored for a king, Jehovah yielded to their desire and gave the new ruler authority by a holy anointing. fn David, even though he had been anointed to succeed Saul as king recognized the sanctity of the king's person, and bitterly reproached himself because on one occasion he had mutilated the robe of the monarch. Saul at that time was seeking David's life, and the latter sought only a means of showing that he had no intent to slay his royal enemy; yet we are told: "That David's heart smote him, because he had cut off Saul's skirt. And he said unto his men, The Lord forbid that I should do this thing unto my master, the Lord's anointed, to stretch forth mine hand against him, seeing he is the anointed of the Lord." fn

Note, further, the following scriptural adjurations as recorded in the Old Testament: "My son, fear thou the Lord, and the king." fn "I counsel thee to keep the king's commandment, and that in regard of the oath of God." fn "Curse not the king, no not in thy thought." fn

Examples Set by Christ and His Apostles—Our Savior's work on earth was marked throughout by His acknowledgment of the existing powers of the land, both Jewish and Roman, even though the latter had been won by cruel conquest, and were exercised unjustly. When the tax-collector called for the tribute money demanded by the hierarchy, Christ, though not admitting the justice of the claim, directed that the tax be paid, and even invoked a miraculous circumstance whereby the money could be provided. Of Peter he asked: "What thinkest thou, Simon? Of whom do the kings of the earth take custom or tribute? Of their own children, or of strangers? Peter saith unto him, Of strangers. Jesus saith unto him, Then are the children free. Notwithstanding, lest we should offend them, go thou to the sea, and cast an hook, and take up the fish that first cometh up; and when thou hast opened his mouth, thou shall find a piece of money: that take, and give unto them for me and thee." fn

At the instigation of certain wicked Pharisees, a treacherous plot was laid to make Christ appear as an offender against the ruling powers. They sought to catch Him by the casuistical question—"What thinkest thou? Is it lawful to give tribute unto Caesar or not?" His rejoinder was an unequivocal endorsement of submission to the laws. "Shew me the tribute money" He said; "And they brought unto him a penny. And he saith unto them, Whose is this image and superscription? They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's." fn

Throughout the tragic circumstances of His trial and condemnation, Christ maintained a submissive demeanor even toward the chief priests and council who were plotting His death. These officers, however unworthy of their priestly power, were nevertheless in authority and had a certain measure of jurisdiction in secular as in ecclesiastical affairs. When He stood before Caiaphas, laden with insult and accused by false witnesses, He maintained a dignified silence. To the high priest's question, "Answereth thou nothing? What is it which these witness against thee?" He deigned no reply. Then the high priest added: "I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God." fn To this solemn adjuration, spoken with official authority, the Savior gave an immediate answer, thus acknowledging the office of the high priest, however unworthy the man.

A somewhat analogous mark of respect for the high priest's office was shown by Paul while a prisoner before the ecclesiastical tribunal. His remarks displeased the high priest, who gave immediate command to those who stood near Paul to smite him on the mouth. fn This angered the apostle, and he cried out: God shall smite thee, thou whited wall: for sittest thou to judge me after the law, and commandest me to be smitten contrary to the law? And they that stood by said, Revilest thou God's high priest? Then said Paul, I wist not, brethren, that he was the high priest: for it is written, Thou shalt not speak evil of the ruler of thy people." fn

Paul, writing to Titus, who had been left in charge of the Church among the Cretans, warned him of the weaknesses of his flock, and urged him to teach them to be orderly and law-abiding: "Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work." fn In another place, Paul is emphatic in declaring the duty of the saints toward the civil power, such authority being ordained of God. He points out the necessity of secular government, and the need of officers in authority, whose power is to be feared by evil-doers only. He designates the civil authorities as ministers of God; and justifies taxation by the state, with an admonition that the saints fail not in their dues.

These are his words addressed to the Church at Rome: "Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? Do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake. For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing. Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honor to whom honor." fn

In a letter to Timothy, Paul teaches that in the prayers of the saints, kings and all in authority should be remembered, adding that such remembrance is pleasing in the sight of God: "I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior." fn

The duty of willing submission to authority is elaborated in the epistles to the Ephesians and the Colossians; and illustrations are applied to the relations of social and domestic life. Wives are taught to be submissive to their husbands—"For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church"; but this duty within the family is reciprocal, and therefore husbands are instructed as to the manner in which authority ought to be exercised. Children are to obey their parents; yet the parents are cautioned against provoking or otherwise unjustly offending their little ones. Servants are told to render willing and earnest service to their masters, recognizing in all things the superior authority; and masters are instructed in their duty toward their servants, being counseled to avoid threatening and other harsh treatment, remembering that they also will have to answer to a Master greater than themselves. fn

Peter was not less emphatic in teaching the sanctity with which the civil power should be regarded; fn he admonished the saints in this wise: "Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme; Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well. For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men: As free, and not using your liberty for a cloak of maliciousness, but as the servants of God. Honor all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the king." fn

These rules relating to submission to authority he applied, as did Paul similarly, to the conditions of domestic life. Servants are to be obedient, even though their masters be harsh and severe: "For this is thankworthy, if a man for conscience toward God endure grief, suffering wrongfully. For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? But if, when you do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God." fn Wives also, even though their husbands be not of their faith, are not to vaunt themselves and defy authority, but to be submissive, and to rely upon gentler and more effective means of influencing those whose name they bear. fn He gives assurance of the judgment that shall overtake evildoers, and specifies as fit subjects for condemnation "chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, self-willed, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities." fn

Doubtless there existed excellent reason for these explicit and repeated counsels, against the spirit of revolt, with which the apostles of old sought to lead and strengthen the Church. The saints rejoiced in their testimony of the truth that had found place in their hearts—the truth that was to make them free—and it would have been easy for them to regard all others as inferior to themselves, and to rebel against all authority of man in favor of their allegiance to a higher power. There was constant danger that their zeal would lead them to acts of indiscretion, and thus furnish excuse, if not reason, for the assaults of persecutors, who would have denounced them as law-breakers and workers of sedition. Even half-hearted submission to the civil powers would have been unwise at least, in view of the disfavor with which the Church had come to be regarded by pagan contemporaries. The voice of inspired leaders was heard, therefore, in timely counsel for humility and submission. But there were then, as ever have there been, weightier reasons than such as rest on motives of policy requiring submission to the established powers. Such is no less the law of God than of man. Governments are essential to human existence; they are recognized, given indeed, of the Lord; and His people are in duty bound to sustain them.

Book of Mormon Teachings concerning the duty of the people as subjects of the law of the land are abundant throughout the volume. However, as the civil and the ecclesiastical powers were usually vested together, the king or chief judge generally being also the high priest, there are comparatively few admonitions of allegiance to the civil authority as distinct from that of the Priesthood. From the time of Nephi, son of Lehi, to that of the death of Mosiah, a period of nearly five hundred years, the Nephites were ruled by a succession of kings; during the remaining time of their recorded history, more than five hundred years, they were subject to judges of their own choosing. Under each of these forms of government, the secular laws were rigidly enforced, the power of the state being supplemented and strengthened by that of the Church. The sanctity with which the laws were regarded is illustrated in the judgment pronounced by Alma upon Nehor, a murderer, and a promoter of sedition and priestcraft. "Therefore thou art condemned to die," said the judge, "according to the law which has been given us by Mosiah, our last king; and it has been acknowledged by this people; therefore this people must abide by the law." fn

Latter-day Revelation requires of the saints in the present dispensation strict allegiance to the civil laws. In a communication dated August 1, 1831, the Lord said to the Church: "Let no man break the laws of the land, for he that keepeth the laws of God hath no need to break the laws of the land. Wherefore, be subject to the powers that be, until he reigns whose right it is to reign, and subdues all enemies under his feet." fn At a later date, August 6, 1833, the voice of the Lord was heard again on this matter, saying: "And now, verily I say unto you concerning the laws of the land, it is my will that my people should observe to do all things whatsoever I command them. And that law of the land which is constitutional, supporting that principle of freedom in maintaining rights and privileges, belongs to all mankind, and is justifiable before me. Therefore, I, the Lord, justify you, and your brethren of my church, in befriending that law which is the constitutional law of the land." fn

A question has many times been asked of the Church and of its individual members, to this effect: In the case of a conflict between the requirements made by the revealed word of God, and those imposed by the secular law, which of these authorities would the members of the Church be bound to obey? In answer, the words of Christ may be applied—it is the duty of the people to render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and unto God the things that are God's. At the present time the kingdom of heaven as an earthly power, with a reigning King exercising direct and personal authority in temporal matters, has not been established upon the earth. The branches of the Church as such, and the members composing the same, are subjects of the several governments within whose separate realms the Church organizations exist. In this day of comparative enlightenment and freedom there is small cause for expecting any direct interference with the rights of private worship and individual devotion; in all civilized nations the people are accorded the right to pray, and this right is assured by what may be properly called a common law of humankind. No earnest soul is cut off from communion with his God; and with such an open channel of communication, relief from burdensome laws and redress for grievances may be sought from the power that holds control of nations.

Pending the overruling by Providence in favor of religious liberty, it is the duty of the saints to submit themselves to the laws of their country. Nevertheless, they should use every proper method, as citizens or subjects of their several governments, to secure for themselves and for all men the boon of freedom in religious service. It is not required of them to suffer without protest imposition by lawless persecutors, or through the operation of unjust laws; but their protests should be offered in legal and proper order. The saints have practically demonstrated their acceptance of the doctrine that it is better to suffer evil than to do wrong by purely human opposition to unjust authority. And if by thus submitting themselves to the laws of the land, in the event of such laws being unjust and subversive of human freedom, the people be prevented from doing the work appointed them of God, they are not to be held accountable for the failure to act under the higher law. The word of the Lord has defined the position and duty of the people in such a contingency: "Verily, verily, I say unto you, that when I give a commandment to any of the sons of men to do a work unto my name, and those sons of men go with all their might and with all they have to perform that work, and cease not their diligence, and their enemies come upon them and hinder them from performing that work, behold, it behooveth me to require that work no more at the hands of those sons of men, but to accept of their offerings. And the iniquity and transgression of my holy laws and commandments I will visit upon the heads of those who hindered my work, unto the third and fourth generation, so long as they repent not, and hate me, saith the Lord God." fn

An Illustration of such suspension of divine law is found in the action of the Church regarding the matter of plural marriage. This practise was established as a result of direct revelation, fn and many of those who followed the same felt that they were divinely commanded so to do. For ten years after plural marriage had been introduced into Utah as a Church observance, no law was enacted in opposition to the practise. Beginning with 1862, however, Federal statutes were framed declaring the practise unlawful and providing penalties therefor. The Church claimed that these enactments were unconstitutional, and therefore void, inasmuch as they violated the provision in the national Constitution forbidding the government making laws respecting any establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof. fn Many appeals were taken to the national court of final resort, and at last a decision was rendered sustaining the laws as constitutional and therefore binding. The Church, through its President, thereupon discontinued the practise of plural marriage, and announced its action to the world, solemnly placing the responsibility for the change upon the nation by whose laws the renunciation had been forced. This action has been approved and confirmed by the official vote of the Church in conference assembled. fn

Teachings of the Church—Perhaps there can be presented herein no better summary of the teachings of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints regarding its relation to the civil power, and the respect due to the laws of the land, than the official declaration issued by the Prophet Joseph Smith, and which has been incorporated in the Doctrine and Covenants—one of the standard works of the Church, adopted by vote of the Church as one of the accepted guides in faith, doctrine, and practise. fn It reads as follows:

A DECLARATION OF BELIEF REGARDING GOVERNMENTS AND LAWS IN GENERAL

1. We believe that governments were instituted of God for the benefit of man; and that he holds men accountable for their acts in relation to them, both in making laws and administering them, for the good and safety of society.

2. We believe that no government can exist in peace, except such laws are framed and held inviolate as will secure to each individual the free exercise of conscience, the right and control of property, and the protection of life.

3. We believe that all governments necessarily require civil officers and magistrates to enforce the laws of the same; and that such as will administer the law in equity and justice should be sought for and upheld by the voice of the people if a republic, or the will of the sovereign.

4. We believe that religion is instituted of God; and that men are amenable to him, and to him only, for the exercise of it, unless their religious opinions prompt them to infringe upon the rights and liberties of others; but we do not believe that human law has a right to interfere in prescribing rules of worship to bind the consciences of men, nor dictate forms for public or private devotion; that the civil magistrate should restrain crime, but never control conscience; should punish guilt, but never suppress the freedom of the soul.

5. We believe that all men are bound to sustain and uphold hold the respective governments in which they reside, while protected in their inherent and inalienable rights by the laws of such governments; and that sedition and rebellion are unbecoming every citizen thus protected, and should be punished accordingly; and that all governments have a right to enact such laws as in their own judgments are best calculated to secure the public interest; at the same time, however, holding sacred the freedom of conscience.

6. We believe that every man should be honored in his station, rulers and magistrates as such, being placed for the protection of the innocent and the punishment of the guilty; and that to the laws all men owe respect and deference, as without them peace and harmony would be supplanted by anarchy and terror; human laws being instituted for the express purpose of regulating our interests as individuals and nations, between man and man; and divine laws given of heaven, prescribing rules on spiritual concerns, for faith and worship, both to be answered by man to his Maker.

7. We believe that rulers, states, and governments have a right, and are bound to enact laws for the protection of all citizens in the free exercise of their religious belief; but we do not believe that they have a right in justice to deprive citizens of this privilege, or proscribe them in their opinions, so long as a regard and reverence are shown to the laws and such religious opinions do not justify sedition nor conspiracy.

8. We believe that the commission of crime should be punished according to the nature of the offense; that murder, treason, robbery, theft, and the breach of the general peace, in all respects, should be punished according to their criminality and their tendency to evil among men, by the laws of that government in which the offense is committed; and for the public peace and tranquillity all men should step forward and use their ability in bringing offenders against good laws to punishment.

9. We do not believe it just to mingle religious influence with civil government, whereby one religious society is fostered and another proscribed in its spiritual privileges, and the individual rights of its members, as citizens, denied.

10. We believe that all religious societies have a right to deal with their members for disorderly conduct, according to the rules and regulations of such societies; provided that such dealings be for fellowship and good standing; but we do not believe that any religious society has authority to try men on the right of property or life, to take from them this world's goods, or to put them in jeopardy of either life or limb, or to inflict any physical punishment upon them. They can only excommunicate them from their society, and withdraw from them their fellowship.

11. We believe that men should appeal to the civil law for redress of all wrongs and grievances, where personal abuse is inflicted or the right of property or character infringed, where such laws exist as will protect the same; but we believe that all men are justified in defending themselves, their friends, and property, and the government, from the unlawful assaults and encroachments of all persons in times of exigency, where immediate appeal cannot be made to the laws, and relief afforded.

12. We believe it just to preach the Gospel to the nations of the earth, and warn the righteous to save themselves from the corruption of the world; but we do not believe it right to interfere with bondservants, neither preach the Gospel to, nor baptize them contrary to the will and wish of their masters, nor to meddle with or influence them in the least to cause them to be dissatisfied with their situations in this life, thereby jeopardizing the lives of men; such interference we believe to be unlawful and unjust, and dangerous to the peace of every government allowing human beings to be held in servitude.

REFERENCES

Secular Government Necessary; Divinely Recognized

God showed Pharaoh what he was about to do—Gen. 41:25-57.

Training schools were established by direction of King Nebuchadnezzar—Dan. 1:3-5.

Public instruction fostered under kingly rule—2 Chron. 17:7-9.

Moses foresaw that the Israelites would establish kings to rule over them, and gave instructions that a copy of the record known as the Law of Moses should be provided for the guidance of the kings—Deut. 17:14-20. When David was crowned King of Israel he entered into a league, somewhat in the nature of a constitutional guaranty—2 Sam. 5:3. Zedekiah, King of Judah, made a covenant with the people, proclaiming liberty unto them—Jer. 34:8; read verses 8-11. See mention of the law of the Medes and Persians "which altereth not"—Dan. 6:8, 12; Esther 1:19.

Christ recognized and observed the payment of taxes—Matt. 22:17-22.

Paul taught obedience to the secular powers and required members of the church to pay their tributes and dues—Rom. 13:1-7.

The Lord requires of his people in this dispensation that if any violate the secular law they be dealt with by the laws of the land—D&C 42:79, 85, 86.

Church organization to be formed according to the laws of man—D&C 44:4.

And thus all things shall be made sure, according to the laws of the land—D&C 51:6.

Let no man break the laws of the land—D&C 58:21. Note that in the 23rd verse the Lord says: Behold, the laws which ye have received from my hand are the laws of the church, and in this light ye shall hold them forth.

Constitutional law, supporting that principle of freedom in maintaining rights and privileges, is justifiable before the Lord—D&C 98:5.

According to the laws and constitution of the people, which I have suffered to be established—D&C 101:77.

Declaration of Belief regarding Government and Laws in general—D&C, sec. 134.

Footnotes

1. Gen. 16:1-9; see Jesus the Christ, p. 397, Note 6.

2. See Gen. 22:1-10.

3. See Gen. 38:24.

4. Exo. 22:28. The word "gods" in this passage is rendered by some translators "judges." (See marginal reference, Bible.)

5. Deut. 16:18; see also 1:16; 1 Chron. 23:4;1 Chron. 26:29. See further Ps. 82:1, 6; John 10:34-36; and Jesus the Christ, pp. 489, 501.

6. See 1 Sam. 8:6, 7, 22; 1 Sam. 9:15, 16; 10:1.

7. 1 Sam. 24:5, 6, 10; see also 26:9-12, 16.

8. Prov. 24:21.

9. Eccles. 8:2.

10. Eccles. 10:20; see Appendix 23:5.

11. Matt. 17:24-27. The payment exacted in this instance may have been the temple tax or "atonement money." See Jesus the Christ, p. 382.

12. Matt. 22:15-21; see also Mark 12:13-17; Luke 20:20-25.

13. Matt. 26:57-64; Mark 14:55-62; see Jesus the Christ, p. 625.

14. Appendix 23:1.

15. Acts 23:1-5.

16. Titus 3:1.

17. Rom. 13:1-7.

18. 1 Tim. 2:1-3.

19. See Eph. 5:22, 23; Eph. 6:1-9; Col. 5:18-22; Col. 4:1.

20. See Appendix 23:2.

21. 1 Peter 2:13-17.

22. Same, verses 19, 20.

23. See 1 Peter 3:1-7.

24. 2 Peter 2:10.

25. Alma 1:14.

26. D&C 58:21, 22.

27. D&C 98:4-6.

28. D&C 124:49, 50; see Appendix 23:3.

29. See D&C, sec. 132.

30. See Article I, of the Amendments to the Constitution of the United States.

31. See Appendix 23:4.

32. See D&C, sec. 134.

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(James E. Talmage, Articles of Faith [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1981], 387.)

Re: Submission to secular authority.

Posted: September 19th, 2010, 12:31 pm
by Mahonri
D&C 98:4 And now, verily I say unto you concerning the laws of the land, it is my will that my people should observe to do all things whatsoever I command them.
5 And that law of the land which is constitutional, supporting that principle of freedom in maintaining rights and privileges, belongs to all mankind, and is justifiable before me.
6 Therefore, I, the Lord, justify you, and your brethren of my church, in befriending that law which is the constitutional law of the land;
7 And as pertaining to law of man, whatsoever is more or less than this, cometh of evil.
8 I, the Lord God, make you free, therefore ye are free indeed; and the law also maketh you free.
9 Nevertheless, when the wicked rule the people mourn.
10 Wherefore, honest men and wise men should be sought for diligently, and good men and wise men ye should observe to uphold; otherwise whatsoever is less than these cometh of evil.
11 And I give unto you a commandment, that ye shall forsake all evil and cleave unto all good, that ye shall live by every word which proceedeth forth out of the mouth of God.
ABRAHAM H. CANNON 11/3/1884
I would like to state to your honor that I have always endeavored to keep the laws
of the United States because I have been taught by my parents that the
Constitution was a sacred instrument. That I have failed in this respect, and now
stand before you convicted of the crime of unlawful cohabitation, is due to the fact
that I acknowledge a higher law than that of man, which is the law of God; and that
law being part of my religion, sir, I have attempted to obey it.
When I embraced this religion I promised to place all that I had, even to life itself,
upon the altar, and I expect to abide by that covenant which I made; and, sir, I hope the day will never
come when I must sacrifice principle, even to procure life or liberty. Honor, sir, to
me, is higher than anything else upon the earth, and my religion is dearer to me
than anything else that I have yet seen. I am prepared, sir, for the judgment of the court.
HEBER J. GRANT 4/5/1885
No matter what restrictions we are placed under by men, our only consistent
course is to keep the commandments of God. We should, in this regard, place
ourselves in the same position as that of the three Hebrews who were cast into the
fiery furnace.
Oh, another example, along with Daniel, of people that follow God and in turn forsake evil laws!
GEORGE Q. CANNON
I admit that those raising children by plural wives are not complying with man-made
laws, but in the sight of God they are not sinning, as there is no sin in it.
Reed Smoot Hearings 1:9
WILFORD W. WOODRUFF 4/21/1879
God says, “We shall be damned if we do not obey
the law.” Congress says, “We shall be damned if we do.” It places us precisely in
the same position that it did the Hebrews in the fiery furnace, and Daniel in the den
of lions. … Our enemies have pursued the same course … and made it a law of
offense to obey one of the laws of our God.
Now who shall we obey? God or man? My voice is that we obey God.
APOSTLES PENROSE & RICHARDS LETTER TO JOHN TAYLOR 2/16/1887
We then say, we consider the law of God superior to the law of the State, and if we
have to break the law of the State to keep the law of God, we will stand by the
consequences.
First Presidency 7/7/1886
God is superior to governments and courts. But he tells his Church to befriend
the constitutional law of the land. If it is not constitutional, He says it comes of evil.
It must support the principle of freedom in maintaining rights and privileges; if not,
it comes of evil. Who is the Lord directing? His Church. Whatever is contrary to
the freedom guaranteed by the Constitution, which includes not mere belief but the
“free exercise” of religion, He does not command His people to obey, but says they
shall do His will.
JOHN TAYLOR 1/6/1880
I defy the United States. I will obey the will of God. These are
my sentiments, and all of you who sympathize with me in this position raise your
right hand.

Re: Submission to secular authority.

Posted: September 19th, 2010, 3:36 pm
by Amore Vero
Even today there are times when we must decide to either keep the laws of God or the laws of men.

Re: Submission to secular authority.

Posted: September 19th, 2010, 3:44 pm
by Mosby
JOHN TAYLOR 1/6/1880
I defy the United States. I will obey the will of God. These are
my sentiments, and all of you who sympathize with me in this position raise your
right hand.
Hard.......to.......type.......with.......right.......hand........raised..........

Re: Submission to secular authority.

Posted: September 19th, 2010, 4:50 pm
by sbsion
Mosby wrote:
JOHN TAYLOR 1/6/1880
I defy the United States. I will obey the will of God. These are
my sentiments, and all of you who sympathize with me in this position raise your
right hand.
Hard.......to.......type.......with.......right.......hand........raised..........
And, as a fugative of justice, JT never served a day he wasn't pursued by the gvt? (I think JS set the prescendence for this, right, for the last five years of his life?)

Re: Submission to secular authority.

Posted: September 19th, 2010, 6:11 pm
by NoGreaterLove
In a communication dated August 1, 1831, the Lord said to the Church: "Let no man break the laws of the land, for he that keepeth the laws of God hath no need to break the laws of the land. Wherefore, be subject to the powers that be, until he reigns whose right it is to reign, and subdues all enemies under his feet.

So do you guys plan on ignoring this commandment from God?

If you believe the prophet to have written God's commandment to us which is contained in this scripture, then you have it directly from God what you are to do. It can not get any plainer than this. What could anyone add to this statement that would place more clarification on the subject. God has spoken, his words are clear. "let no man break the law of the land"

The only one who has the authority to change this decree is God himself, and he would speak through his prophet. The prophets continue to give their witnesses that this still stands. Quotes are coming.

Re: Submission to secular authority.

Posted: September 19th, 2010, 6:14 pm
by Mahonri
NoGreaterLove wrote:In a communication dated August 1, 1831, the Lord said to the Church: "Let no man break the laws of the land, for he that keepeth the laws of God hath no need to break the laws of the land. Wherefore, be subject to the powers that be, until he reigns whose right it is to reign, and subdues all enemies under his feet.

So do you guys plan on ignoring this commandment from God?
Keeping things in context, the Lord is referring to the "Constitutional law of the land" or the laws that protect life conscience and property as found in D&C 134

Re: Submission to secular authority.

Posted: September 19th, 2010, 6:17 pm
by Amore Vero
Mahonri wrote:
NoGreaterLove wrote:In a communication dated August 1, 1831, the Lord said to the Church: "Let no man break the laws of the land, for he that keepeth the laws of God hath no need to break the laws of the land. Wherefore, be subject to the powers that be, until he reigns whose right it is to reign, and subdues all enemies under his feet.

So do you guys plan on ignoring this commandment from God?
Keeping things in context, the Lord is referring to the "Constitutional law of the land" or the laws that protect life conscience and property as found in D&C 134

I agree with you Mahonri.

NGL, we must not take one quote or scripture & exclude all others or we can be mislead to it's meaning.

Re: Submission to secular authority.

Posted: September 19th, 2010, 6:20 pm
by NoGreaterLove
Keeping things in context, the Lord is referring to the "Constitutional law of the land" or the laws that protect life conscience and property as found in D&C 134
There is no mention of the Constitution in Section 58. And he is not just talking about the United States here. He is talking about everyone across the world. Why would anyone think that we are so special here in the U.S. that God gives us our own set of rules about obeying laws?

Re: Submission to secular authority.

Posted: September 19th, 2010, 6:24 pm
by Mahonri
the principles as contained in the constitution as 98 says.

You say only the Lord can undo 58, but any GA can undo 98, 134, every Prophet quoted above, the command to Daniel, the three Hebrews, etc, etc, etc, etc?

Do you see a double standard there?

Re: Submission to secular authority.

Posted: September 19th, 2010, 6:33 pm
by sbsion
Mahonri wrote:the principles as contained in the constitution as 98 says.

You say only the Lord can undo 58, but any GA can undo 98, 134, every Prophet quoted above, the command to Daniel, the three Hebrews, etc, etc, etc, etc?

Do you see a double standard there?
RIGHT ON..........there's always a a higher law when living in a telestial manifestation

Re: Submission to secular authority.

Posted: September 19th, 2010, 6:38 pm
by Moss Man
If we are to subject ourselves to the powers that be, today, as in the time of Jesus then are the founding fathers under condemnation for not accepting British rule?

Re: Submission to secular authority.

Posted: September 19th, 2010, 6:45 pm
by give_me_liberty
NoGreaterLove wrote:In a communication dated August 1, 1831, the Lord said to the Church: "Let no man break the laws of the land, for he that keepeth the laws of God hath no need to break the laws of the land.
I would include "unless he is commanded by God to do so". This is where the two sides to this discussion can find common ground (and why the founders, Daniel, the 3 Hebrews, and many others do not come under condemnation).

Re: Submission to secular authority.

Posted: September 19th, 2010, 6:52 pm
by Mahonri
give_me_liberty wrote:
NoGreaterLove wrote:In a communication dated August 1, 1831, the Lord said to the Church: "Let no man break the laws of the land, for he that keepeth the laws of God hath no need to break the laws of the land.
I would include "unless he is commanded by God to do so". This is where the two sides to this discussion can find common ground (and why the founders, Daniel, the 3 Hebrews, and many others do not come under condemnation).
I would say we are commanded to do so whenever they violate the principles of life, conscience, property, and fails to support that principle of freedom in maintaining rights and privileges as we read in D&C 98 & 134

Re: Submission to secular authority.

Posted: September 19th, 2010, 10:52 pm
by Amore Vero
Mahonri wrote: I would say we are commanded to do so whenever they violate the principles of life, conscience, property, and fails to support that principle of freedom in maintaining rights and privileges as we read in D&C 98 & 134
I totally agree. To go along with evil is evil, when you can safely stand up to it. It is a sin to support or follow or be decieved by evil men & leaders who violate our divine rights & freedoms.

Moroni, a man of perfect understanding, inflicted the punishment of death on all those who wanted to go along with evil & not defend freedom & women & children.

Re: Submission to secular authority.

Posted: September 20th, 2010, 12:12 pm
by pritchet1
Never forget those who served in the Military who refused to participate in actions against humanity and were "suicided". More happening every day.

Thank God the POTUS is not my "ruler" (even though he thinks he is). He isn't even a yard stick. :lol:

Re: Submission to secular authority.

Posted: September 20th, 2010, 12:15 pm
by Mahonri
Or Alexander Doniphan who "broke the law" and refused to execute the Prophet. That is in Church manuals on how this brave non Mormon stood up against immoral government behavior to do what is right.

I can't believe we are even having this conversation as LDS.

Re: Submission to secular authority.

Posted: September 20th, 2010, 12:24 pm
by Rensai
Mahonri wrote:
give_me_liberty wrote:
NoGreaterLove wrote:In a communication dated August 1, 1831, the Lord said to the Church: "Let no man break the laws of the land, for he that keepeth the laws of God hath no need to break the laws of the land.
I would include "unless he is commanded by God to do so". This is where the two sides to this discussion can find common ground (and why the founders, Daniel, the 3 Hebrews, and many others do not come under condemnation).
I would say we are commanded to do so whenever they violate the principles of life, conscience, property, and fails to support that principle of freedom in maintaining rights and privileges as we read in D&C 98 & 134
Correct!
The Constitution is not a law, but it empowers the people to make laws. . . . The Constitution tells us what shall not be a lawful tender. . . . The legislature has ceded up to us the privilege of enacting such laws as are not inconsistent with the Constitution of the United States. . . . The different states, and even Congress itself, have passed many laws diametrically contrary to the Constitution of the United States….

Shall we be such fools as to be governed by its laws, which are unconstitutional? No! . . . The Constitution acknowledges that the people have all power not reserved to itself. I am a lawyer; I am a big lawyer and comprehend heaven, earth and hell, to bring forth knowledge that shall cover up all lawyers, doctors and other big bodies. This is the doctrine of the Constitution, so help me God. The Constitution is not law to us, but it makes provision for us whereby we can make laws. Where it provides that no one shall be hindered from worshipping God according to his own conscience, is a law. No legislature can enact a law to prohibit it. The Constitution provides to regulate bodies of men and not individuals. (HC 5:289-90; also in TPJS 278)
If we have to give up our chartered rights, privileges, and freedom, which our fathers fought, bled, and died for, and which the constitution of the United States and of this state guarantee unto us, we will do it only at the point of the sword and bayonet. (Discourses Delivered by Presidents Joseph Smith and Brigham Young 4; also in HC 5:468; WJS 218-19)
Shall we longer bear these cruelties which have been heaped upon us for the last ten years in the face of heaven, and in open violation of the constitution and law of these United States and of this state? God forbid! I will not bear it. If they take away my rights, I will fight for them manfully and righteously until I am used up. We have done nothing against the rights of others. (Discourses Delivered by Presidents Joseph Smith and Brigham Young 5; also in HC 5:471; WJS 220)
Joseph Smith made it pretty clear he would fight for his rights and stand against unconstitutional laws. I dare say he had a good understanding of D&C sections 58 and 98 and he shows that Mahonri's statements are correct. We befriend and follow constitutional law; we do not blindly support any and every law unequivocably whether it be just or unjust. Rather, just the opposite, we must fight for our rights and stand against unconstitutional laws that violate our freedom.

Re: Submission to secular authority.

Posted: September 20th, 2010, 12:33 pm
by Fiannan
Mahonri wrote:Or Alexander Doniphan who "broke the law" and refused to execute the Prophet. That is in Church manuals on how this brave non Mormon stood up against immoral government behavior to do what is right.

I can't believe we are even having this conversation as LDS.
Excellent point! And what of all the people who helped the Mormons even when Gov. Boggs made it the "law of the land" to kill Mormons?

A Mormon who unquesitonably follows a law, even if it is against the teachings of God, has made government into his or her idol...their golden calf.

Re: Submission to secular authority.

Posted: September 20th, 2010, 12:34 pm
by pritchet1
I hope we fight against such things as Executive Branch "Regulations", i.e, EPA, DOE, etc.

Re: Submission to secular authority.

Posted: September 20th, 2010, 4:44 pm
by NoGreaterLove
President N. Eldon Tanner, “The Laws of God,” Ensign, Nov 1975, 82 Conference talk:

It is most important that all citizens be informed in matters of government; that they know and understand the laws of the land; and that they take an active part wherever possible in choosing and electing honest and wise men to administer the affairs of government.
There are many who question the constitutionality of certain acts passed by their respective governments, even though such laws have been established by the highest courts in the land as being constitutional, and they feel to defy and disobey the law.
Abraham Lincoln once observed: “Bad laws, if they exist, should be repealed as soon as possible; still, while they continue in force, they should be religiously observed.”
This is the attitude of the Church in regard to law observance. We agree with the author of the following statement:
“In reality the man who defies or flouts the law is like the proverbial fool who saws away the plank on which he sits, and a disrespect or disregard for law is always the first sign of a disintegrating society. Respect for law is the most fundamental of all social virtues, for the alternative to the rule of law is that of violence and anarchy.” (Case and Comment, March/April issue, 1965, p. 20.)

There is no reason or justification for men to disregard or break the law or try to take it into their own hands. Christ gave us the great example of a law-abiding citizen when the Pharisees, trying to entangle him, as the scriptures say, asked him if it were lawful to give tribute money unto Caesar. After asking whose inscription was on the tribute money, and their acknowledgment that it was Caesar’s, he said:
“Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s; and unto God the things that are God’s.” (Matt. 22:21.)
It is the duty of citizens of any country to remember that they have individual responsibilities, and that they must operate within the law of the country in which they have chosen to live. I quote further from the Doctrine and Covenants:
“We believe that all men are bound to sustain and uphold the respective governments in which they reside, while protected in their inherent and inalienable rights by the laws of such governments; and that sedition and rebellion are unbecoming every citizen thus protected, and should be punished accordingly; and that all governments have a right to enact such laws as in their own judgments are best calculated to secure the public interest; at the same time, however, holding sacred the freedom of conscience.” (D&C 134:5.)

Re: Submission to secular authority.

Posted: September 20th, 2010, 4:51 pm
by Mahonri
NGL

Do you think there is a contradiction between the quotes of scripture and Prophets given by others and the quotes you have provided?

Re: Submission to secular authority.

Posted: September 20th, 2010, 5:20 pm
by shadow
Mosby wrote:
JOHN TAYLOR 1/6/1880
I defy the United States. I will obey the will of God. These are
my sentiments, and all of you who sympathize with me in this position raise your
right hand.
Hard.......to.......type.......with.......right.......hand........raised..........
It's important to first understand the will of God. For example, D&C 82:22 tells us to "make unto yourselves friends with the mammon of unrighteousness, and they will not destroy you." Try as you might, you won't be friends with the government (mammon) by defying them. Of course the only person I've seen here that defies the United States to any degree has been CHH. Everyone else is just talk (hypocrites 8) ). It's served CHH well hasn't it?? :?

Get with the program, the church program as revealed by up to date revelation! The patience of the saints etc. etc. Verse 23 is pretty cool.

Re: Submission to secular authority.

Posted: September 20th, 2010, 5:40 pm
by Mahonri
shadow wrote: It's important to first understand the will of God. For example, D&C 82:22 tells us to "make unto yourselves friends with the mammon of unrighteousness, and they will not destroy you." Try as you might, you won't be friends with the government (mammon) by defying them. Of course the only person I've seen here that defies the United States to any degree has been CHH. Everyone else is just talk (hypocrites 8) ). It's served CHH well hasn't it?? :?

Get with the program, the church program as revealed by up to date revelation! The patience of the saints etc. etc. Verse 23 is pretty cool.
wait. So it was ok to stand up against unrighteous laws in the 1800's but not today? But that scripture you gave was given in the 1800's. :idea:

seeing the actions of Prophets of God throughout time clearly shows your interpretation to be completely false. Your attitude mocks the servants of God that sacrificed so much for you. How disgustingly ungrateful.

Re: Submission to secular authority.

Posted: September 20th, 2010, 5:42 pm
by NoGreaterLove
Mah
I see no difference in doctrine among the scriptures and the prophets. I do however see some words out of context that are meant to prove that the D&C 58 does not mean what it says.

No matter how many old quotes one might come up with, we are to follow the most recent counsel on this. I have a lot more recent ones I could post, for the brethren are pretty adamant on this, but the D&C 58 is enough.

D&C 58 insinuates that we are going to have laws that are against the laws of God. It tells us what to do about it. We in the U.S. are IMO going to be held to a higher standard and expected to obey those laws even more than someone in Russia. Why? Because our system of gov is set up in such a way that we have a voice. And God expects us to use that voice within the legal remedies provided to change the laws. Unfortunately the majorityare wicked at this point so our voice is not being heard. But God has told us what he is going to do about it in the Book of Mormon. We are ripe for destruction, and it is the Lord's hand that is going to do it.
The Lord has commanded us to obey the laws of the land and has told us we no need to break them. If a law is contrary to God's law, he does not hold us responsible to keep His law. Then he gives us hope and says to keep those laws until the Lord reigns.

I feel that the Saints belief that it is ok to break a law just because it is unconstitutional will be the demise that brings unwarranted persecution upon all of us. God has told us to stand down and be patient.