Submission to secular authority.

[Mahonri]

that explanation of why the Church stopped Plural Marriage was a submission to secular authority. They were being told to stop something, not allow something.

Are you saying that if this were to happen and they close down the Temples that the Lord would cease allowing people to be married period? Or limit them to temporal marriages so they could conform to secular authority but still marry people?

[InfoWarrior82]

that explanation of why the Church stopped Plural Marriage was a submission to secular authority. They were being told to stop something, not allow something.

Are you saying that if this were to happen and they close down the Temples that the Lord would cease allowing people to be married period? Or limit them to temporal marriages so they could conform to secular authority but still marry people?

Yes, it was a submission to secular authority. I just don't think this time around, the Lord will allow submission to this kind of outright blasphemy.

Honestly, I don't know what would happen if this were to occur. We can only speculate, but my guess would be, yes, we probably will only be allowed to marry in chapels in non-temple (sealing) fashion. The next time we will be able to have temple worship, will be when New Jerusalem is built. Or, whenever our country collapses.

[NoGreaterLove]

The government will have to close the doors of the temple because we will refuse. Probably have armed guards blocking any entry to temple grounds. This will put Mormons in the spotlight. I believe this will be the beginning of the persecutions. We haven't seen nothin' yet!

IMO
The abomination of desolation or the abomination that makes the temples desolate. The daily sacrifice being taken away. The final straw before the Lord unleashes on America to have her answer for the blood of the saints.

[NoGreaterLove]

The Lord can make a temple be whatever He chooses. Baptisms for the dead were held in various places before the temple was completed. It could be the same for temple sealings.

[InfoWarrior82]

The Lord can make a temple be whatever He chooses. Baptisms for the dead were held in various places before the temple was completed. It could be the same for temple sealings.

This is very true!

[Neil Rucker]

History teaches us most governments instituted on earth are born out of evil events or turn evil over time and are a reflection of some of man's worst appetites. Power corrupts period, end of story. The Founders knew it and warned us against it, they studied history and understood the good and evil that can spring forth out of government and other powerful institutions. Government can have its place when in the hands of the people and in the form of a true Republic. Our government no longer works like it was designed to operate in the ideals of the Founders. It has been hijacked by huge corporations and banks that care not of God or his laws. Only their power is what matters and now they institute laws to protect them from we the people in their demonic power grab. So how can our government be of God when it is now owned by satan and operated by secret combinations in these latter days? I stand with the Founders who would be voicing their opposition against this form of government we have today in these States United. According to some on this thread the Founding Fathers should be considered sinners in the eyes of God for even questioning British rule and not going along with its tyranny. I for one Im not going along with the power brokers using religious doctrine out of context to silence good Christian people for standing up for what is right.

D&C 134
2 We believe that no government can exist in peace, except such laws are framed and held inviolate as will secure to each individual the free exercise of conscience, the right and control of property, and the protection of life.

Most governments fail in providing these things.

[Rincon]

This thread has been quite enlightening.

I believe I recall reading that Joseph Smith obeyed the corrupt government when he was required to disarm the militia at Nauvoo. He didn't defy the government even though it was totally corrupt. Then at Carthage Jail a gun (which had not been turned in) was given to Joseph. As it turned out, Joseph would have been better off had he not received that gun. It's something to think about.

[AussieOi]

This thread has been quite enlightening.

I believe I recall reading that Joseph Smith obeyed the corrupt government when he was required to disarm the militia at Nauvoo. He didn't defy the government even though it was totally corrupt. Then at Carthage Jail a gun (which had not been turned in) was given to Joseph. As it turned out, Joseph would have been better off had he not received that gun. It's something to think about.

Many prophets seal their testimoney with their blood.
JS had to go. he couldnt be the one which took them west. it needed a new leader for that

Heres another one.......would the church have been better off if it "said fine, we wont join the union then" in regards to polygamy?
congress...shall make...no law....religion

[NoGreaterLove]

I for one Im not going along with the power brokers using religious doctrine out of context to silence good Christian people for standing up for what is right.

I guess I am now a power broker! Cool! How much does that pay?


I think standing up for what is right is absolutely critical. But standing can come in many forms. We have been commanded to use our current system of law of redress to do this. If we step out of those laws, we are disobeying Gods commandment as contained in D&C.,

Those who espouse breaking the laws in order to prove a point or "stand" as you call it, either have not studied our current prophets stance on this or ignore it.

[Mahonri]

Just because you keep saying it NGL, doesn't make it true.

As has been pointed out dozens of times, the scriptures and actions of the Prophets show that Gods laws are far more important than mans laws, and that we are to not follow wicked laws.

You pit yourself against every Prophet in every dispensation including our Lord and Savior.

Are there degrees of bad laws that require differing degrees of rebellion? Clearly. But if the laws of God and the laws of man conflict, we must choose to obey God at any price.

[Mark]

Just because you keep saying it NGL, doesn't make it true.

As has been pointed out dozens of times, the scriptures and actions of the Prophets show that Gods laws are far more important than mans laws, and that we are to not follow wicked laws.

You pit yourself against every Prophet in every dispensation including our Lord and Savior.

Are there degrees of bad laws that require differing degrees of rebellion? Clearly. But if the laws of God and the laws of man conflict, we must choose to obey God at any price.

Mahonri I would encourage you to go find all the talks in the last 20 years given by members of the 12 or the First Presidency at the Provo Freedom Festival Sunday Fireside each year around the 4th of July. All these brethren have consistently said that it is critical that we as Saints honor and obey the laws of the land in which we live. If we disagree with a law of the land we must work within the framework of the system under which we live to lobby change of those laws. Anarchy or becoming a law unto ourselves is not the answer.

[Mahonri]

I agree anarchy and becoming a law unto ourselves is wrong and in fact, evil.

However, that is not the issue. The issue is obeying God or man and who we should choose.

[NoGreaterLove]

I agree anarchy and becoming a law unto ourselves is wrong and in fact, evil.

However, that is not the issue. The issue is obeying God or man and who we should choose.

I agree. Obeying God is utmost important. That is why I follow his commandment and obey the law.
That is why I do not obey the counsel and advice given by men to disobey the law.

[shadow]

You pit yourself against every Prophet in every dispensation including our Lord and Savior.

Thats why Christ allowed the corrpt law to hang him, to pit himself against himself
Render unto Caeser and all that crap...

Anyway Mahonri, what has President Monson done to "defy" the government? Which laws does he break? How about President Hinckley? President Hunter? President Benson? President Kimball? Go ahead and name a few laws each broke. I'm especially curious to know which ones they told us, the members, to break.

[Mahonri]

You pit yourself against every Prophet in every dispensation including our Lord and Savior.

Thats why Christ allowed the corrpt law to hang him, to pit himself against himself
Render unto Caeser and all that crap...

Anyway Mahonri, what has President Monson done to "defy" the government? Which laws does he break? How about President Hinckley? President Hunter? President Benson? President Kimball? Go ahead and name a few laws each broke. I'm especially curious to know which ones they told us, the members, to break.

They support the violation of Immigration laws for starters

They told us the members to read and obey the scriptures

[Black Swan]

Just because you keep saying it NGL, doesn't make it true.

As has been pointed out dozens of times, the scriptures and actions of the Prophets show that Gods laws are far more important than mans laws, and that we are to not follow wicked laws.

You pit yourself against every Prophet in every dispensation including our Lord and Savior.

Are there degrees of bad laws that require differing degrees of rebellion? Clearly. But if the laws of God and the laws of man conflict, we must choose to obey God at any price.

Mahonri I would encourage you to go find all the talks in the last 20 years given by members of the 12 or the First Presidency at the Provo Freedom Festival Sunday Fireside each year around the 4th of July. All these brethren have consistently said that it is critical that we as Saints honor and obey the laws of the land in which we live. If we disagree with a law of the land we must work within the framework of the system under which we live to lobby change of those laws. Anarchy or becoming a law unto ourselves is not the answer.

Anarchy and becoming a law unto ourselves are two entirely different things.

Also, instead of appealing to whoever spoke at the most recent "Freedom Festival," perhaps we could just open the scriptures. That's a novel idea. But, that would mean we'd actually have to open them.

[Mark]

Just because you keep saying it NGL, doesn't make it true.

As has been pointed out dozens of times, the scriptures and actions of the Prophets show that Gods laws are far more important than mans laws, and that we are to not follow wicked laws.

You pit yourself against every Prophet in every dispensation including our Lord and Savior.

Are there degrees of bad laws that require differing degrees of rebellion? Clearly. But if the laws of God and the laws of man conflict, we must choose to obey God at any price.

Mahonri I would encourage you to go find all the talks in the last 20 years given by members of the 12 or the First Presidency at the Provo Freedom Festival Sunday Fireside each year around the 4th of July. All these brethren have consistently said that it is critical that we as Saints honor and obey the laws of the land in which we live. If we disagree with a law of the land we must work within the framework of the system under which we live to lobby change of those laws. Anarchy or becoming a law unto ourselves is not the answer.

Anarchy and becoming a law unto ourselves are two entirely different things.

Also, instead of appealing to whoever spoke at the most recent "Freedom Festival," perhaps we could just open the scriptures. That's a novel idea. But, that would mean we'd actually have to open them.

Oh goodie. Here we go with more "intellectual" clap trap trying to lead the members away from the safety of the body of the Saints and adherence to the words of the modern Prophets. Do I need to post Wilford Woodruffs famous quote about the priority of the living oracles? Okay you have forced my hand Black Swan.

"Wilford Woodruff, the fourth President of the Church, reported: “I will refer to a certain meeting I attended in the town of Kirtland in my early days. At that meeting some remarks were made … with regard to the living oracles and with regard to the written word of God. … A leading man in the Church got up and talked upon the subject, and said: ‘You have got the word of God before you here in the Bible, Book of Mormon, and Doctrine and Covenants; you have the written word of God, and you who give revelations should give revelations according to those books, as what is written in those books is the word of God. We should confine ourselves to them.’

“When he concluded, Brother Joseph turned to Brother Brigham Young and said, ‘Brother Brigham, I want you to take the stand and tell us your views with regard to the living oracles and the written word of God.’ Brother Brigham took the stand, and he took the Bible, and laid it down; he took the Book of Mormon, and laid it down; and he took the Book of Doctrine and Covenants, and laid it down before him, and he said: ‘There is the written word of God to us, concerning the work of God from the beginning of the world, almost, to our day. And now,’ said he, ‘when compared with the [living] oracles those books are nothing to me; those books do not convey the word of God direct to us now, as do the words of a Prophet or a man bearing the Holy Priesthood in our day and generation. I would rather have the living oracles than all the writing in the books.’ That was the course he pursued. When he was through, Brother Joseph said to the congregation: ‘Brother Brigham has told you the word of the Lord, and he has told you the truth.’ ”16

We have seen it all before. Out of curiosity is "Weepinng for Zion" a Sterling Allen sponsored production? Whatever.. the tune is always the same. Get the members to doubt the inspiration of the living oracles so they they can go onto "further light and truth" unimpeded. Here is the authors conclusions to the article posted by Black Swan. My advice? Run the other way!!

Conclusion:

The Lord has given us the standard works as a yardstick to measure truth by. He has also given us prophets to revel additional truth but that additional truth will not contradict the standard works. Nothing Joseph ever taught contradicted true teachings in the Bible or Book of Mormon.

No man is saved in ignorance yet almost all of our modern “saints” are living in ignorance. We have been taught not to search the mysteries (although the scriptures tell us to search them), we have been taught to rely on the arm of flesh in the form of a leader (although the scriptures tell us not to).

Over time, as we continue to sustain leaders that have less and less the spirit of God, and more and more the spirit of the world, we will come to see the great tragedy that Satan truly has already worked in our church as we begin to see good, kind members thrown about by every wind of doctrine because they are so busy following the teachings of men that they neglect the more weightier teachings of the Lord.

Here is to the belief that one day as a church we will go back to our scriptural roots, that we will not be scared to question teachings that are not scriptural no matter who they come from, that we will have the knowledge to recognize non scriptural teachings, that we will stop caring how the world sees us and that we, as a people, may once again be found worthy in the sight of the Lord.

Pick up your standard works, put down your magazines and come to know God.

[Mahonri]

Run the other way Mark? Because the quote sounds like a quote from the Prophet.

Adam, Seth, Enoch, Noah, all the Patriarchs and Prophets, Jesus and the Apostles, and every man that has ever written the word of the Lord, have written the same doctrine upon the same subject; and you never can find that Prophets and Apostles clashed in their doctrines in ancient days:..

There is no clash in the principles revealed in the Bible, the Book of Mormon, and the Doctrine and Covenants; and there would be no clash between any of the doctrines taught by Joseph the Prophet and by the brethren now, if all would live in a way to be governed by the Spirit of the Lord.
JD 5:329, Brigham Young, October 7, 1857

You can go ahead and run the other way if you want Mark, but I like the straight and narrow way set by the Lord and His servants.

[Mark]

Run the other way Mark? Because the quote sounds like a quote from the Prophet.

Adam, Seth, Enoch, Noah, all the Patriarchs and Prophets, Jesus and the Apostles, and every man that has ever written the word of the Lord, have written the same doctrine upon the same subject; and you never can find that Prophets and Apostles clashed in their doctrines in ancient days:..

There is no clash in the principles revealed in the Bible, the Book of Mormon, and the Doctrine and Covenants; and there would be no clash between any of the doctrines taught by Joseph the Prophet and by the brethren now, if all would live in a way to be governed by the Spirit of the Lord.
JD 5:329, Brigham Young, October 7, 1857

You can go ahead and run the other way if you want Mark, but I like the straight and narrow way set by the Lord and His servants.

Your agreement with these obviously apostate leaning conclusions from the article Black Swan quoted in "Weeping for Zion" speaks volumes as to where you are in your mindset Mahonri. Go show that article and its conclusions to any one of the 15 men we sustain as Prophets Seers and Revelators and ask them what they think of those conclusions. I will bet you my food storage and all my precious metals that they will point out to you very kindly of course the apostate like spirit and direction with which it is leading the unsuspecting towards. Please do it.

[Mahonri]

I didn't (and still have not) read nor was I commenting on the article.

I was commenting on your conclusions. I agree, the last part of the quote is missing the mark a little

[Mark]

I didn't (and still have not) read nor was I commenting on the article.

I was commenting on what was posted here by the both of you

My whole post was about the article posted by Black Swan Mahonri. You said yourself in your post before this one that the conclusions in the article sounded like those of a quote from Brigham Young. Yet now you deny reading the articles conclusions? Are you on meds Bro? Good grief man get your head in the game before opening up your mouth and putting your foot squarely in it.

[Mahonri]

ya, I didn't finish the whole quote before commenting

I was just going off the first sentence or two. wont be making that mistake again

[Mark]

ya, I didn't finish the whole quote before commenting

I was just going off the first sentence or two. wont be making that mistake again

I forgive you Bro. Just don't let it happen again.

[tribrac]

I doubt soldiers would ever be sent to bar the entrance to temples. Far more likley to see an army of lawyers and tax collectors that the gvmnt sends. Maybe they say if mormons won't perform LGBT marriages then all other Mormon marriages are no longer recognized, so your wife has to worry about health insurance and stuff,

Then they declare the church is taking a political postion on a political issue and jerk the tax-excempt status. Maybe they sieze a couple of temples for payment of back taxes and penalties. THey could then re-sale them on the cheap to whomever they wanted.

Maybe a local gvmnt uses the power of Kelo eminent Doamian to act in the public intrest to rid the public of a 'symbol of hatred'. They could turn an old temple into a community center.

[InfoWarrior82]

I doubt soldiers would ever be sent to bar the entrance to temples. Far more likley to see an army of lawyers and tax collectors that the gvmnt sends. Maybe they say if mormons won't perform LGBT marriages then all other Mormon marriages are no longer recognized, so your wife has to worry about health insurance and stuff,

Then they declare the church is taking a political postion on a political issue and jerk the tax-excempt status. Maybe they sieze a couple of temples for payment of back taxes and penalties. THey could then re-sale them on the cheap to whomever they wanted.

Maybe a local gvmnt uses the power of Kelo eminent Doamian to act in the public intrest to rid the public of a 'symbol of hatred'. They could turn an old temple into a community center.

This may be true as well. One thing is for sure: they definitely want to revoke our tax exempt status!