Submission to secular authority.

[shadow]

I am not trying to be mocking or coy, and I agree with you -to an extent. But otoh, should a German Mormon under Hitler have waited for the church to tell him to resist the unrighteous government? Did the Mormon's who did break the law to fight Nazism sin by doing so? It is not a rhetorical question. We have been told that we are not to support governments that do not maintain our God given rights - at what point, if any do we follow that counsel without specific instruction to do so? Do we obdeiently go to a FEMA camp if we have not heard from SLC that the time has come to resist tyranny? Can you not concede that it may be that there are ever things that it is incumbent on us to do that the church cannot or will not give official direction on? I will conced it is never something that I would do lightly - but are there circumstances where I would? You better believe it.

He who must be commanded in all things is an unwise and slothful servant. I am not applying it to you, Shadow, but I am applying it to the discussion, and I think it does apply.

Great questions OI.
In my earlier post I mentioned personal revelation. However, usually personal revelation will not be contrary to what the current leaders of the church are teaching. An example of contrary revelation would be when Nephi killed Laban. "Thou shalt not kill" vs "Kill Laban". I've already said I will not go to a FEMA camp -unless inspired otherwise, but that point is mute because I haven't been asked to go to a FEMA camp. Obviously there is a point where we "defy the USA" but current revelation says otherwise for now. We either sustain our Prophet or we don't. President Hinckley told us we can disagree but we need to be civil (paraphrasing). President Monson hasn't given any instruction to the contrary. So for now I continue to work within the system peacefully.

[shadow]

Pretty easy to win an argument when you claim the other guy is saying something he isn't.

Please recant your false accusations (false witness) against me.

Which accusation is false?

[Mahonri]

Pretty easy to win an argument when you claim the other guy is saying something he isn't.

Please recant your false accusations (false witness) against me.

Which accusation is false?

All of them.

[Black Swan]

I love it! I quote Prophets, saying nothing about anyone, and I am judgemental (on other threads) (It's the innuendo and your ignorance of modern revelation ).

Then those same people specifically attack me and (among other things) say I am not supporting "modern revelation".



The irony!

a. Modern revelation says to not defy the USA. You believe contrary.
b. Modern revelation says modern medicine is a blessing from God. You believe contrary.
c. Modern revelation says that the prophet and the president of the church are the same and God makes the choice. You believe contrary.

Irony indeed!

Not trying to be coy, but can you point out the exact chapter and verse for (a), (b), and (c) above? Do you know of something that actually says not to defy the "United States of America" (capitalized versus uncapitalized), or is that just an inference you're making? Would also like to see the actual "revelation" (your words) on modern medicine.

Also, what exactly are you saying in (c) - as written, it doesn't read very well. God makes what choice?

[shadow]

Not trying to be coy, but can you point out the exact chapter and verse for (a), (b), and (c) above? Do you know of something that actually says not to defy the "United States of America" (capitalized versus uncapitalized), or is that just an inference you're making? Would also like to see the actual "revelation" (your words) on modern medicine.

Also, what exactly are you saying in (c) - as written, it doesn't read very well. God makes what choice?

To answer your questions-

A- I already referenced it in an earlier post plus we have words of modern prophets that don't have chapter and verse. President Hinckley said we need to be peaceful and civil (paraphrasing). That doesn't sound "defiant". Pres. Monson hasn't changed that so it stands.

B- Go to the Pharmaceutical drugs are satanic thread. Plenty of quotes from modern prophets and even more that I didn't include. It seemed that Mahonri had a narrow interpretation of the WOW that excluded modern medicine. If that's not the case then I wonder why he came across as so anti modern medicine. Mahonri, can drugs be a blessing or are they always satanic? That should clear the air

C- On another thread Mahonri said that the people choose the president of the church and God chooses the Prophet. Modern revelation (which is quoted in that thread) says the president and the prophet are the same. I also have modern revelation quotes from recent latter-day prophets that say the same thing that I didn't quote there but will if asked. The president of the church is the prophet and is called of God and sustained by it's members. That's how the church is run. The only choice the members have is if they choose to sustain or not.

[Mahonri]

so instead of apologizing for making false accusations (false witness) against me, you expand them.

[shadow]

so instead of apologizing for making false accusations (false witness) against me, you expand them.

How many Mahonri's do we have on this site??

[sbsion]

so instead of apologizing for making false accusations (false witness) against me, you expand them.

How many Mahonri's do we have on this site??

lots

[Mahonri]

2 Thes 2:10 because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie

[shadow]

2 Thes 2:10 because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie

Now you're talking about yourself?

Get real and be honest. In this thread you argued my point about being non-defiant claiming I am ungrateful and going against the prophets etc. etc. The problem is that the church is trying to be friendly with the government, just ask Col. Flagg. We as a church are NOT defiant. That's just the reality of it.
So answer me this- Are we encouraged to be defiant? If the answer is no then why did you argue with my point?

Next is the medicine thread. You insinuated that taking meds is satanic, or that meds are satanic and taking them is both against the WOW and shows a lack of faith. Read the thread if you want to. Latter day revelation has revealed that modern medicine (including medicine ie pharmaceuticals) is a blessing from God.
So answer me this- Can pharmaceutical drugs be a blessing in the lives of people? If the answer is yes then why didn't you just admit it on the drug thread?

Last we have the president/prophet doctrine. You claimed that the president of the church is picked by the people and the prophet is picked by God. Are you now saying you don't believe that, because if you go back to that thread, that is what you said almost word for word if not exactly word for word. Modern revelation says you're wrong. Are you now admitting that the president of the church is going to be the prophet of the church? If so great! if not why are you falsely accusing me of lying about what you actually either posted or heavily insinuated? I say you're the one bearing false witness against me. Do you even know what you post?

[Mahonri]

2 Thes 2:10 because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie

Now you're talking about yourself?

Get real and be honest. In this thread you argued my point about being non-defiant claiming I am ungrateful and going against the prophets etc. etc. The problem is that the church is trying to be friendly with the government, just ask Col. Flagg. We as a church are NOT defiant. That's just the reality of it.
So answer me this- Are we encouraged to be defiant? If the answer is no then why did you argue with my point?

Next is the medicine thread. You insinuated that taking meds is satanic, or that meds are satanic and taking them is both against the WOW and shows a lack of faith. Read the thread if you want to. Latter day revelation has revealed that modern medicine (including medicine ie pharmaceuticals) is a blessing from God.
So answer me this- Can pharmaceutical drugs be a blessing in the lives of people? If the answer is yes then why didn't you just admit it on the drug thread?

Last we have the president/prophet doctrine. You claimed that the president of the church is picked by the people and the prophet is picked by God. Are you now saying you don't believe that, because if you go back to that thread, that is what you said almost word for word if not exactly word for word. Modern revelation says you're wrong. Are you now admitting that the president of the church is going to be the prophet of the church? If so great! if not why are you falsely accusing me of lying about what you actually either posted or heavily insinuated? I say you're the one bearing false witness against me. Do you even know what you post?

You are trying to pit Prophets against each other and then accuse other people falsely of not following modern revelation when they do not agree with your interpretation.

We could argue the points for another 12 pages, but with this kind of attitude there is no way we can ever come to some kind of common ground.

No reason to stoop to this kind of behavior just to make your self feel better. It doesn't help anything.

[Mark]

2 Thes 2:10 because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie

Now you're talking about yourself?

Get real and be honest. In this thread you argued my point about being non-defiant claiming I am ungrateful and going against the prophets etc. etc. The problem is that the church is trying to be friendly with the government, just ask Col. Flagg. We as a church are NOT defiant. That's just the reality of it.
So answer me this- Are we encouraged to be defiant? If the answer is no then why did you argue with my point?

Next is the medicine thread. You insinuated that taking meds is satanic, or that meds are satanic and taking them is both against the WOW and shows a lack of faith. Read the thread if you want to. Latter day revelation has revealed that modern medicine (including medicine ie pharmaceuticals) is a blessing from God.
So answer me this- Can pharmaceutical drugs be a blessing in the lives of people? If the answer is yes then why didn't you just admit it on the drug thread?

Last we have the president/prophet doctrine. You claimed that the president of the church is picked by the people and the prophet is picked by God. Are you now saying you don't believe that, because if you go back to that thread, that is what you said almost word for word if not exactly word for word. Modern revelation says you're wrong. Are you now admitting that the president of the church is going to be the prophet of the church? If so great! if not why are you falsely accusing me of lying about what you actually either posted or heavily insinuated? I say you're the one bearing false witness against me. Do you even know what you post?

Obviously not sheepdog. Don't waste your breathe.

[shadow]

You are trying to pit Prophets against each other (you're such a liar Mahonri) and then accuse other people falsely of not following modern revelation when they do not agree with your interpretation.

We could argue the points for another 12 pages, but with this kind of attitude there is no way we can ever come to some kind of common ground.

No reason to stoop to this kind of behavior just to make your self feel better. It doesn't help anything.

Where do I even begin

[sbsion]

I like "bottom lines"....hmmmmm, in this case, is it not when man stoops to his own laws, he is in apostacy to Gods laws?

[Rincon]

It will be interesting to see what happens when the courts of the land force the Church to allow same sex marriages in the Temples. We are obviously discriminating against the gays. Will we still obey the corrupt laws of the land then?

[Like]

It will be interesting to see what happens when the courts of the land force the Church to allow same sex marriages in the Temples. We are obviously discriminating against the gays. Will we still obey the corrupt laws of the land then?

No

[InfoWarrior82]

It will be interesting to see what happens when the courts of the land force the Church to allow same sex marriages in the Temples. We are obviously discriminating against the gays. Will we still obey the corrupt laws of the land then?

The government will have to close the doors of the temple because we will refuse. Probably have armed guards blocking any entry to temple grounds. This will put Mormons in the spotlight. I believe this will be the beginning of the persecutions. We haven't seen nothin' yet!

[Mahonri]

The government will have to close the doors of the temple because we will refuse. Probably have armed guards blocking any entry to temple grounds. This will put Mormons in the spotlight. I believe this will be the beginning of the persecutions. We haven't seen nothin' yet!

What precedence do you have of this theory?

[Rincon]

The government will have to close the doors of the temple because we will refuse. Probably have armed guards blocking any entry to temple grounds. This will put Mormons in the spotlight. I believe this will be the beginning of the persecutions. We haven't seen nothin' yet!

What precedence do you have of this theory?

I have no precedence. I just know Satan is having a hay day and I can't think of anything he would enjoy more than closing the doors of the temples. It will happen unless the Lord himself prevents it.

[Mahonri]

what makes you think they would close the doors?

[Amore Vero]

Though the temples are already being defiled right & left by unworthy people who lie to get in & remarry & thus commit adultery upon the altars of the temple, it is only be deception that they get away with it. The Church would never knowingly allow same-sex marriage to be performed in the temple & would close it rather than be forced to allow it.

[Rincon]

Info warrior 82-- wrote that, maybe he will give his reason. What I said was I wonder what would happen if the courts of the land decided the Church was discriminating by not allowing same sex marriages in the Temples. Would we then obey the law of God or the law of the land?

[Mahonri]

Though the temples are already being defiled right & left by unworthy people who lie to get in & remarry & thus commit adultery upon the altars of the temple, it is only be deception that they get away with it. The Church would never knowingly allow same-sex marriage to be performed in the temple & would close it rather than be forced to allow it.

again, says who? based on what past action?

Also, people remarry in the Temple with not only the Bishop, Stake Presidents permission, but also the President of the Church's permission all the time. Not trying to promote divorce, just pointing out that it does not happen only through deception as you claim above

[Amore Vero]

Though the temples are already being defiled right & left by unworthy people who lie to get in & remarry & thus commit adultery upon the altars of the temple, it is only be deception that they get away with it. The Church would never knowingly allow same-sex marriage to be performed in the temple & would close it rather than be forced to allow it.

again, says who? based on what past action?

Also, people remarry in the Temple with not only the Bishop, Stake Presidents permission, but also the President of the Church's permission all the time. Not trying to promote divorce, just pointing out that it does not happen only through deception as you claim above

Very few questions are usually asked by leaders today of divorced persons & people seem to easily deceive their way in the temple for remarriage, despite all the signatures.

[InfoWarrior82]

The government will have to close the doors of the temple because we will refuse. Probably have armed guards blocking any entry to temple grounds. This will put Mormons in the spotlight. I believe this will be the beginning of the persecutions. We haven't seen nothin' yet!

What precedence do you have of this theory?

Apparently you've never read the part in Doctrine and Covenants where the prophet was told what would happen to the church if he did not comply with halting plural marriages. (Official Declaration #1 I believe). The government would come down extremely hard. They're waiting for the perfect opportunity. This is definitely a perfect opportunity. The Lord allowed the halting of plural marriages, but do you really think the Lord will permit gay marriages in the temple???