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The temple gives us the pattern for testing whether a messenger is a true messenger or not. There are bishops and stake presidents that have participated in wife swapping parties - my bishop is awesome I would have no problem discussing it with him, but should I rely on his judgement as to whether it was a true visitation or not - when we have been givent he pattern to follow to determine for ourselves? Again, this is where I would disagree with you. The ultimate responsibility to test the accuracy lies with the individual. Again, IF I were to receive such a visit, I would not be responding with "I need to talk to my bishop about this first...".NoGreaterLove wrote:I will concede to this. However, after I received such a revelation, I would put it to a test. That test would be to seek the counsel and direction of my bishop to ensure that an angel of light had not appeared to me that was actually Satan. Checks and balances.Do you understand my position on personal revelation now? If - and it is a HUGE if - the Lord or a true messenger appeared to me and commanded, I am NOT going to say "...but the prophet said..." I am going to do as commanded. Period. And many have a problem with that. That's OK.
I have had a similiar experience to what you describe. Not going to go into it, but I went to the Bishop immediately and found out it was Satan's power. Boy, was I shocked! It scared me. How was I ever deceived in such a manner? I immediately knew that I had to trust the Bishop and I did. I asked him for counsel and he led me back to where I needed to be. It saved my marriage, it saved my family, it save my eternal future. I would have lost all of that if I would have followed the inspiration that I received which I was sure was from God, had two witnesses of it, counsel which was contrary to what the prophets had taught.
I did not even know that the revelation I received was contrary to the prophet's counsel until later. So that even made it harder.
Checks and balances. That is why we need to make sure our own personal revelation does not go contrary to the Lord's counsel as given by his prophets. If it does, we need to tap into the other side of the equation and seek counsel from our Bishop on the matter to insure we have not been led astray.
It is dangerous to step outside the counsel of the prophet. If someone is receiving such revelation, please, please go to your bishop, humble yourself, realizing you may have been deceived and get his direction on it. Trust his direction. That is what his stewardship is.
You can not trust yourself, that you are infallible when it comes to receiving revelation. Even the prophet has checks and balances. The quorum of the twelve. Our check and balance is our bishop. Use it before going against the prophet's counsel. Humility is the key. We can make mistakes and mistake revelation as coming from God when in all actuality we are being deceived. Checks and balances.
It is a mistake to think we have mastered the art of receiving and recognizing inspiration from God. That is why we need prophets, apostles, bishops etc.. Along with the need for keys to be handed down, but eventually we will have all of the keys ourselves, but until then.............
Amen....an uncle that spent 8 or 9 years as bishop and another equal number of years in stake presidency that was ex'd. Come to find out things were going on in the early part of his term as bishop.Original_Intent wrote:The temple gives us the pattern for testing whether a messenger is a true messenger or not. There are bishops and stake presidents that have participated in wife swapping parties - my bishop is awesome I would have no problem discussing it with him, but should I rely on his judgement as to whether it was a true visitation or not - when we have been givent he pattern to follow to determine for ourselves? Again, this is where I would disagree with you. The ultimate responsibility to test the accuracy lies with the individual. Again, IF I were to receive such a visit, I would not be responding with "I need to talk to my bishop about this first...".NoGreaterLove wrote:I will concede to this. However, after I received such a revelation, I would put it to a test. That test would be to seek the counsel and direction of my bishop to ensure that an angel of light had not appeared to me that was actually Satan. Checks and balances.
I have had a similiar experience to what you describe. Not going to go into it, but I went to the Bishop immediately and found out it was Satan's power. Boy, was I shocked! It scared me. How was I ever deceived in such a manner? I immediately knew that I had to trust the Bishop and I did. I asked him for counsel and he led me back to where I needed to be. It saved my marriage, it saved my family, it save my eternal future. I would have lost all of that if I would have followed the inspiration that I received which I was sure was from God, had two witnesses of it, counsel which was contrary to what the prophets had taught.
I did not even know that the revelation I received was contrary to the prophet's counsel until later. So that even made it harder.
Checks and balances. That is why we need to make sure our own personal revelation does not go contrary to the Lord's counsel as given by his prophets. If it does, we need to tap into the other side of the equation and seek counsel from our Bishop on the matter to insure we have not been led astray.
It is dangerous to step outside the counsel of the prophet. If someone is receiving such revelation, please, please go to your bishop, humble yourself, realizing you may have been deceived and get his direction on it. Trust his direction. That is what his stewardship is.
You can not trust yourself, that you are infallible when it comes to receiving revelation. Even the prophet has checks and balances. The quorum of the twelve. Our check and balance is our bishop. Use it before going against the prophet's counsel. Humility is the key. We can make mistakes and mistake revelation as coming from God when in all actuality we are being deceived. Checks and balances.
It is a mistake to think we have mastered the art of receiving and recognizing inspiration from God. That is why we need prophets, apostles, bishops etc.. Along with the need for keys to be handed down, but eventually we will have all of the keys ourselves, but until then.............
Absolutely I understand the seriousness of an error of judgement. But this idea that I need to get something signed off from my bishop? No, no, each person would have to make up their own mind, but that would not be the path I would take.
DrJones wrote:Elder Oaks gave a relevant talk at Oct 2010 General Conference -- emphasizing the need for BALANCE between the two lines of revelation -- PERSONAL/FAMILY HEAD and Priesthood. Some of you seem to want to rely solely or heavily on the Priesthood line -- if so, please re-read Elder Oaks talk and seek for the balance that he urged.
Back to square one again. Do you deny that the bishop has stewardship over you? Are you saying you are not fallible? So, as RosaBella says. Why do we need a bishop? You are infallible, have all the revelation you need, no need for a bishop or prophet. They are just wise men that we listen to only when our own conscience is in line with theirs. This will be the spiritual death of you OI. If you have not already died spiritually. A continuation on the course you are on is a road to apostasy. That is what apostasy means, look it up. Joseph Smith spoke on it and as sure as he prophesied it as surely will it happen.Absolutely I understand the seriousness of an error of judgement. But this idea that I need to get something signed off from my bishop? No, no, each person would have to make up their own mind, but that would not be the path I would take.
Yes, that was a wonderful talk and exactly what I try to pattern my philosphy after.DrJones wrote:Elder Oaks gave a relevant talk at Oct 2010 General Conference -- emphasizing the need for BALANCE between the two lines of revelation -- PERSONAL/FAMILY HEAD and Priesthood. Some of you seem to want to rely solely or heavily on the Priesthood line -- if so, please re-read Elder Oaks talk and seek for the balance that he urged.
You might take a good long hard look in the mirror.....NoGreaterLove wrote:Back to square one again. Do you deny that the bishop has stewardship over you? Are you saying you are not fallible? So, as RosaBella says. Why do we need a bishop? You are infallible, have all the revelation you need, no need for a bishop or prophet. They are just wise men that we listen to only when our own conscience is in line with theirs. This will be the spiritual death of you OI. If you have not already died spiritually. A continuation on the course you are on is a road to apostasy. That is what apostasy means, look it up. Joseph Smith spoke on it and as sure as he prophesied it as surely will it happen.Absolutely I understand the seriousness of an error of judgement. But this idea that I need to get something signed off from my bishop? No, no, each person would have to make up their own mind, but that would not be the path I would take.
Now you can come back at me with your anger and let me have it. I am listening. Just as you told Rosa, you need some hard words to wake you up.
I'm not angry. And the bottom line is we both agree that submitting to the will of the Lord is paramount. And I fully expect that thru my lifetime this will mean to follow the commands of the prophet exactly. The bottom line is that I will be held ultimately responsible for ANY deviation from the Lord's will within my life. Where the responsibility lies, there also lies the ultimate stewardship. You can't separate the two.NoGreaterLove wrote:Back to square one again. Do you deny that the bishop has stewardship over you? Are you saying you are not fallible? So, as RosaBella says. Why do we need a bishop? You are infallible, have all the revelation you need, no need for a bishop or prophet. They are just wise men that we listen to only when our own conscience is in line with theirs. This will be the spiritual death of you OI. If you have not already died spiritually. A continuation on the course you are on is a road to apostasy. That is what apostasy means, look it up. Joseph Smith spoke on it and as sure as he prophesied it as surely will it happen.Absolutely I understand the seriousness of an error of judgement. But this idea that I need to get something signed off from my bishop? No, no, each person would have to make up their own mind, but that would not be the path I would take.
Now you can come back at me with your anger and let me have it. I am listening. Just as you told Rosa, you need some hard words to wake you up.
So basically you are saying even if the Prophet personally told you your visitation or revelation is wrong (that you feel you have verified by the Spirit ) you would follow your personal revelation?Original_Intent wrote: Yes at that point, even if the prophet told me that I was not to do as I ahd been commanded - I still would.
Verse 8 is the key here. If you worship this beast you will find your name is not written in the book of life. If in fact, this beast is a government type entity, is submitting to that which is mandated by the beast (ie. submitting to this version of secular authority) akin to worshiping it?7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.
10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
Verse 8 says if you worship the beast, your name will not be found in the book of life. Verse 15 says that the the beast will have power to kill any that refuse to worship the image of the beast.15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
Then there is this from Heber C. Kimball:13And whoso layeth down his life in my cause, for my name’s sake, shall find it again, even life eternal.
14Therefore, be not afraid of your enemies, for I have decreed in my heart, saith the Lord, that I will prove you in all things, whether you will abide in my covenant, even unto death, that you may be found worthy.
As Original Intent has mentioned a few times, there has been a sifting prophesied. Here is another quote from Heber C. Kimball:"Before that day comes, however, the Saints will be put to a test that will try the integrity of the best of them. The pressure will become so great that the more righteous among them will cry unto the Lord day and night until deliverance comes.
And then we have this from D&C 45 where it is talking about the end times:Yes, we think we are secure here in the chambers of the everlasting hills, where we can close those few doors of the canyons against mobs and persecutors, the wicked and the vile, who have always beset us with violence and robbery, but I want to say to you, my brethren, the time is coming when we will be mixed up in these now peaceful valleys to the extent that it will be difficult to tell the face of a Saint from the face of an enemy to the people of God. Then, brethren, look out for the great sieve, for there will be a great sifting time, and many will fall; for I say unto you there is a TEST, a TEST, a TEST coming, and who will be able to stand?
This is why I think this issue is important. I have a feeling that where we stand on this issue may directly impact us in the sifting ahead.56And at that day, when I shall come in my glory, shall the parable be fulfilled which I spake concerning the ten virgins.
57For they that are wise and have received the truth, and have taken the Holy Spirit for their guide, and have not been deceived—verily I say unto you, they shall not be hewn down and cast into the fire, but shall abide the day.
Original_Intent wrote:Yes, that was a wonderful talk and exactly what I try to pattern my philosphy after.DrJones wrote:Elder Oaks gave a relevant talk at Oct 2010 General Conference -- emphasizing the need for BALANCE between the two lines of revelation -- PERSONAL/FAMILY HEAD and Priesthood. Some of you seem to want to rely solely or heavily on the Priesthood line -- if so, please re-read Elder Oaks talk and seek for the balance that he urged.
And jsut to clarify with NGL, I am not talking about "warm fuzzies" - I would never act based on that, it would take a visitation, and one that I verified per the pattern given us in the temple. At that point, it's a done deal. Getting counsel from the bishop at that point would not be an act of humility, it would be an act of hubris. Yes at that point, even if the prophet told me that I was not to do as I ahd been commanded - I still would.
Now - I never expect for any such situation to occur. And I am sure many would be simply aghast that I would say such a thing. Others perhaps feel as I do.
That's the priority. But I don't think it is really necessary to argue hypotheticals that I personally believe will never happen.
You talk about stewardships, let me tell you about stewardships. and it very much aligns with Elder Oaks talk.
President Monsen has the greatest stewardship because it is over the church as a whole. In fact it is over the entire world. But his stewardship does not exceed the stewardship that a person has over themselves, or that a father has over his family. In fact, it is inferior as regards to the individual and the family respectively.
As a father, I have a stewardship over my family, but again it is inferior to the stewardship that each family member has over themselves. Stewardship and responsibility are entertwined - is President Monsen going to be accountable for my actions, assuming that as prophet that he has given correct commandments? No. How can their be higher stewardship without higher responsibility? There can't because they go hand in hand. Where the greater responsibility lies is also where the stewardship lies. I consider that a self-evident truth. Am I mistaken?
Not trying to be argumentative. but this is something I have thought long and hard about, pondered prayed and feel is correct principle. I haven't seen anything spoken by a prophet to lead me to believe otherwise and have found much that supports that view.
Can we jsut leave it at that I will always follow the prophet unless clearly commanded to do otherwise, and I accept the responsibility of verifying the source of any such commandment? Because that is what I am determined to do. And again anyone is welcome to disagree, that is THEIR stewardship and their decision.
In response to your last post, No I am not infallible. Neither is my bishop. But the responsibility and the stewardship rests upon me in regards to verifying personal revelation. As I said, I have an interview next Sunday and I will discuss this with my bishop and see what counsel he gives me. If he supports my position I will consider that the end of the matter, as he has stewwardship over me, not you. If he expresses concern or disagrees with my position, then I will make the necesary changes.
And WOW, I am not setting myself up as my own God, I am just not making the mistake of making the prophet my god either. Even the prophet himself has clearly stated that he does nto lead the church, the Lord does.
parents acted correctly when they disobeyed the state
I would also add that it was in apparent conflict with the current Prophets' counsel on obeying the law. There are definitely times where we should obey a higher law rather than submitting to the laws of men.What they did was illegal.
You have the power of the priesthood directly from the Lord to protect your home. There will be times when all that stands as a shield between your family and the adversary’s mischief will be that power. You will receive direction from the Lord by way of the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Exactly. And whereas the prophet will not lead us astray, we can count on his revelation being correct if our is in conflict. However, as OI points out, it is possible, very slightly possible our circumstances may warrant a change in course. But I would put those odds at very slight or none at all. The only reason I would even admit to this being a possibility is because God is God and he can do what he wants. If one were to experience a revelation encouraging deviation from the prophets counsel, my first thought would be the revelation came from the wrong source. The only way I would trust such a revelation is to seek council from my Bishop or on up the ladder if necessary. This life is too short to be making those type of mistakes. And I would place high odds that this person is being mislead.ndjili wrote:I think the reason many are so passionate about this is that they have known many who have left the church or believe in false doctrine because the "spirit" told them to. I think we need to listen to both the prophet and the spirit. We have been promised that he will not lead this church astray. knowing this then for me, I know if I feel the spirit telling me differently that the Prophet...I know the spirit is false. I know our Prophet will not lead us astray, but that I am a sinner and may do something to offend the true Holy Spirit which can allow for a counterfeit to take his place> I think that is what Rosabella and NGL are trying to say, that one doesnt trump the other...but confirms each other...for they are both from God and will say the same thing.
That is absolutely incorrect. I can name a lot of tyrannical governments the prophet has told those citizens to obey their laws.No prophet ever taught us to subject ourselves to secular authority when such becomes tyranny
no.shadow wrote:So we can break unconstitutional laws?
truthseeker wrote:For me personally, I am somewhat passionate about this because my study of the scriptures and latter-day prophecy leads me to believe that this could become a real issue for many of us.
In revelations, chapter 13 we are told about two beasts. Many, including myself, believe that this is a reference to a government type entity that comes into power (such as the NWO).
Verse 8 is the key here. If you worship this beast you will find your name is not written in the book of life. If in fact, this beast is a government type entity, is submitting to that which is mandated by the beast (ie. submitting to this version of secular authority) akin to worshiping it?7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Now let me insert this exactly where it fits
D&C 1
14 And the arm of the Lord shall be revealed; and the day cometh that they who will not hear the voice of the Lord, neither the voice of his servants, neither give heed to the words of the prophets and apostles, shall be cut off from among the people;
15 For they have strayed from mine ordinances, and have broken mine everlasting covenant
9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.
10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
Verse 8 says if you worship the beast, your name will not be found in the book of life. Verse 15 says that the the beast will have power to kill any that refuse to worship the image of the beast.15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
When I read this, I then think of D&C 98 which is discussing governments and constitutional laws and choosing good leaders. In this context, we come across the following verses:
Then there is this from Heber C. Kimball:13And whoso layeth down his life in my cause, for my name’s sake, shall find it again, even life eternal.
14Therefore, be not afraid of your enemies, for I have decreed in my heart, saith the Lord, that I will prove you in all things, whether you will abide in my covenant, even unto death, that you may be found worthy.
As Original Intent has mentioned a few times, there has been a sifting prophesied. Here is another quote from Heber C. Kimball:"Before that day comes, however, the Saints will be put to a test that will try the integrity of the best of them. The pressure will become so great that the more righteous among them will cry unto the Lord day and night until deliverance comes.
And then we have this from D&C 45 where it is talking about the end times:Yes, we think we are secure here in the chambers of the everlasting hills, where we can close those few doors of the canyons against mobs and persecutors, the wicked and the vile, who have always beset us with violence and robbery, but I want to say to you, my brethren, the time is coming when we will be mixed up in these now peaceful valleys to the extent that it will be difficult to tell the face of a Saint from the face of an enemy to the people of God. Then, brethren, look out for the great sieve, for there will be a great sifting time, and many will fall; for I say unto you there is a TEST, a TEST, a TEST coming, and who will be able to stand?
This is why I think this issue is important. I have a feeling that where we stand on this issue may directly impact us in the sifting ahead.56And at that day, when I shall come in my glory, shall the parable be fulfilled which I spake concerning the ten virgins.
57For they that are wise and have received the truth, and have taken the Holy Spirit for their guide, and have not been deceived—verily I say unto you, they shall not be hewn down and cast into the fire, but shall abide the day.
I saw this post and It made me think of one tyrannical Government.AussieOi wrote:no.shadow wrote:So we can break unconstitutional laws?
is that like saying you can't breathe oxygen?
can't drink water?
can you dry water?
Going back to the story of Helmuth Hubener, we see the following actions:The only reason I would even admit to this being a possibility is because God is God and he can do what he wants.
"German boys! Do you know the country without freedom, the country of terror and tyranny? Yes, you know it well, but are afraid to talk about it. They have intimidated you to such an extent that you don't dare talk for fear of reprisals. Yes you are right; it is Germany — Hitler Germany! Through their unscrupulous terror tactics against young and old, men and women, they have succeeded in making you spineless puppets to do their bidding." - Helmuth Hubener
"I know that God lives and He will be the Just Judge in this matter. I look forward to seeing you in a better world!" - Helmuth Hubener
+1AussieOi wrote: Now there are 2 issues here we’re discussing in this thread
1) Obeying laws you disagree with
2) Acting against an instruction from the prophet
Both different thing
Re point 2- well you better be right if you are gonna do that- but we all agree on that now anyway
Re point 1- read this paper, and others i will provide later.