LDS Freedom Forum

Bella and NGL

You are better than this. That last comment was no OK. You can disagree with someone, but your attitude of anyone disagreeing with YOU is going against the Prophet is not in the Spirit of this forum.

we can make our points and use words of the Prophets to make those points. Both sides have done that. Would it be acceptable to you if OI said you were not following the Prophet on this??

Let's all be more civil.

Mahonri wrote:Bella and NGL

You are better than this. That last comment was no OK. You can disagree with someone, but your attitude of anyone disagreeing with YOU is going against the Prophet is not in the Spirit of this forum.

we can make our points and use words of the Prophets to make those points. Both sides have done that. Would it be acceptable to you if OI said you were not following the Prophet on this??

Let's all be more civil.

Do you feel the outright personal attack I received from OI is acceptable??? Does in not also fall into "not in the Spirit of this forum." or am I completely off base and he should be allowed to attack me personally with such great venom.

Both "sides" of this one have some VERY good points. IF anyone here feels like the other "side" is completely wrong, or even mostly wrong, I think they DO need to take another look at themselves. I personally feel like neither personal revelation nor the words of the prophets is "superior" in any way. Yes, following personal revelation over the prophets can open the door to deception, but it takes personal revelation to interpret, understand, use, apply, learn from, or otherwise get anything at all out of the words of the prophets. And yes there is DEFINITELY room for deception in our own interpretations and revelations on what the scriptures and prophets are saying. Arguing that we should follow the prophets over personal revelation every time because that is the only way we can avoid being deceived is pointless, as it takes personal revelation to follow the prophets in the first place. They will be heard differently by everyone, and even their words can be VERY easily taken out of context.

Yes, following the prophet is extremely important. I think NGL is right, the time is coming quickly when the seperation will occur, and the ability to change our own views to align with revelation from the prophet will very likely determine where most of us land. We are already seeing it in a small degree, and it will only get bigger. If there is anywhere at all that we are in disagreement with the Lord's will, this choice will eventually come to us. We have to be teachable and willing to change and learn from the prophet, or we are in serious trouble.

However, I feel like we need to be careful with this. Yes, there ARE times when personal revelation may contradict revelation given to prophets. I do not believe that this will happen unless we are ready for it (have followed the words of the prophets and past personal revelation) but it can happen. I also don't think it happens only to the prophet. I don't know where this "line" that we have to cross to be eligible for this is, but it does happen.
Not only that, but (more commonly) there are cases when personal revelation simply appears to contradict the prophets due to our own limited understanding, but in reality will help us progress and is completely in line with what we have been taught. It is very dangerous to discard a prompting as "of the devil" simply because at first glance there appears to be a contradiction. This can be a serious mistake.

Every prompting we receive should be compared to the scriptures, modern day prophets, and our own past personal revelations and promptings. If we find a contradiction, we should be very careful not to follow it OR dismiss it without a lot of prayer, fasting, etc. And I mean a LOT. The Lord can then confirm that the revelation was indeed from Him, hopefully along with some explanation of how it is in fact in line with the prophets, or if it isn't, why an exception is being made, or He can confirm that we were about to be deceived.

I hope I am making my point well and it doesn't come across in a way it isn't meant to. Let me try it from another angle. What I am trying to say is that the two are not only equally important, they are intertwined. If we try to set one over the other, we will end up in error, because if we do this, then whenever there appears to be a contradiction, we will always "fall back" on the one we consider superior by default. There should never be a default between these two. This is the true mistake, as either default can land us in the wrong place sometimes. When a contradiction appears, don't dismiss one or the other, pray and fast as long as you need to until you know without a doubt what to do and why. Then do it.

Essentially, I am saying that everyone here is right, but seems to be unwilling to hear the other "side" of the argument. I keep putting the word "side" in quotations because they aren't sides of an argument between two opposites. They are two sides of the same coin, and both are necessary and, I believe, equally important. I realize that it will take a while, but I recommend that everyone reread this thread ( ), at least the part of it about personal revelation vs. the words of the prophets, focusing very strongly on what people on the other "side" are saying. I promise that a lot of it is very important and should be reconsidered.

So, in the context of submission to secular authority (back on the original topic, woohoo!!! ) I think that it is a personal decision. The words of the prophets should be taken into just as much consideration as our own personal revelation. If there is a contradiction, a lot of prayer and fasting on the subject may be required. I don't know the answer for anyone other than myself. I think it will be different for everyone. If there does appear to be a contradiction for any of you though (in this case, to disobey a man-made law), my personal advice is to not make either decision too hastily. Pray and fast until you know for yourself, one way or the other, what is right.

Sorry to hear about your website Rosabella....if I can be of assistance...

Have some vacation time to kill over the Holidays!

Rosabella wrote:
Do you feel the outright personal attack I received from OI is acceptable??? Does in not also fall into "not in the Spirit of this forum." or am I completely off base and he should be allowed to attack me personally with such great venom.

I think we all need to be more civil, but I honestly feel yours and NGL approach on this topic has been filled with far more "venom".

no one should be "allowed" to attack anyone.

Mummy wrote:Sorry to hear about your website Rosabella....if I can be of assistance...

Have some vacation time to kill over the Holidays!

You are kind. I am working with the hosting site to see if they can retrieve what was deleted. Which was the whole site. I had some tiny parts backed up that we tried to see if we could build some kind of a base to start over with. But I have hope that maybe, just maybe the host site can fix this disaster.

I just am not sure how much more I can handle at this time in my life. I do not have the physical strength to even do everyday things. I am still bedridden 99% of the time. I have not even been able to leave the house in over 2 months. I feel like everywhere I turn I am attacked and derailed by the Adversary. There is so much going on that I cannot even go into online. I know if I back off my site the worldly things in my life would improve. That is a pattern I have seen in the past. I need a respite, but their is none to be found.

I truly appreciate your support, concern and your ever willingness to help

give_me_liberty wrote: And yes there is DEFINITELY room for deception in our own interpretations and revelations on what the scriptures and prophets are saying. Arguing that we should follow the prophets over personal revelation every time because that is the only way we can avoid being deceived is pointless, as it takes personal revelation to follow the prophets in the first place. They will be heard differently by everyone, and even their words can be VERY easily taken out of context.

. . . . . . . Let me try it from another angle. What I am trying to say is that the two are not only equally important, they are intertwined. If we try to set one over the other, we will end up in error, because if we do this, then whenever there appears to be a contradiction, we will always "fall back" on the one we consider superior by default. There should never be a default between these two. This is the true mistake, as either default can land us in the wrong place sometimes. When a contradiction appears, don't dismiss one or the other, pray and fast as long as you need to until you know without a doubt what to do and why. Then do it.

Essentially, I am saying that everyone here is right, but seems to be unwilling to hear the other "side" of the argument.. . . . . . . .

Excellent post, in my view, especially the portions retained in my post above. I think GML resolves the controversy in this thread quite nicely, for the most part.

And Bella, how awful to suffer the 'agony of delete' at such a moment. That does seem diabolical. Brian could probably offer very good advice helping to recover them. If you need to pay someone for this help, I would like to help out.

I've posted on your web site and have really benefitted from your research. I went through a personal odyssey a few decades ago in the Bay Area looking into some of the offerings from the New Age, and what you have put together fits my experience and assessment, but you have really brought out the dangers and deceptions the movement can and most likely will increasingly pose to the the Lord's Church.

Thank you for doing all you have done.

larsenb wrote:

give_me_liberty wrote: And yes there is DEFINITELY room for deception in our own interpretations and revelations on what the scriptures and prophets are saying. Arguing that we should follow the prophets over personal revelation every time because that is the only way we can avoid being deceived is pointless, as it takes personal revelation to follow the prophets in the first place. They will be heard differently by everyone, and even their words can be VERY easily taken out of context.

. . . . . . . Let me try it from another angle. What I am trying to say is that the two are not only equally important, they are intertwined. If we try to set one over the other, we will end up in error, because if we do this, then whenever there appears to be a contradiction, we will always "fall back" on the one we consider superior by default. There should never be a default between these two. This is the true mistake, as either default can land us in the wrong place sometimes. When a contradiction appears, don't dismiss one or the other, pray and fast as long as you need to until you know without a doubt what to do and why. Then do it.

Essentially, I am saying that everyone here is right, but seems to be unwilling to hear the other "side" of the argument.. . . . . . . .

Excellent post, in my view, especially the portions retained in my post above. I think GML resolves the controversy in this thread, for the most part.

And Bella, how awful to suffer the 'agony of delete' at such a moment. That does seem diabolical. Brian could probably offer very good advice helping to recover them. If you need to pay someone for this help, I would like to help out.

I've posted on your web site and have really benefitted from your research. I went through a personal odyssey a few decades ago in the Bay Area looking into some of the offerings from the New Age, and what you have put together fits my experience and assessment, but you have really brought out the real dangers the movement can and most likely pose to the the Lord's Church. Thank you for doing all you have done.

Thank you LarsenB for your moral support, kind words and the chuckle for the pun of "'agony of delete" (the agony of defeat) that was cute and a very needed laugh. We also heard at this very time that one of our parents fell and is in the hospital. So today has not been a good day at all.

Rosabella wrote:Crucify me, Martyr me, mock me, call me every name in the book, but I will never agree to the idea that we are only to follow the Prophet up until we disagree with him via our personal revelations. This is the path to apostasy. If one finds oneself in conflict between their revelation and the Prophets they should take it up with those that have keys of authority over them. Taking the role of the injured party. Sorry, not gonna fly. Assuming the role of the "martyr" is indeed something I have noticed you enjoy. I advise you get over yourself.


If some one disagrees, they should stay civil and respectful and not lower themselves to attacking the messenger and not the message. No one will change my mind on this topic of following the Prophets of God because I have been told to do just that by the Lord's true Prophets.

Again the equation that anyone that disagrees is advocating not followng the prophet. No, what I and others are saying is that your interpretation of what the prophet said is INCORRECT - you are NOT following the prophet if your interpreation of what he said was incorrect. I think it has been demonstrated repeatedly in this thread that your intepretation is incorrect. We are trying to help you to follow the prophet, but your bloddy PRIDE keeps getting in the way.

No I will not FOE you as I am not your foe, you are being your own worse enemy. I will not refrain from responding to your posts, because if you promote ideas that I feel are wrong, I am going to voice my opinion and why I disagree. This gives you and others the chance to correct me. Without me swooning, putting a hand to my forehead and saying "alas! poor me! I am under attack!" You very literally DEMONIZE anyone who disagrees with you, and then accuse them of unkindness if they protest.

I will try to avoid posting to you directly, as you obviously only can respond with injured pride and playing victim. The day will come when you realize that I loved you more than anyone else on this forum because I was the one who risked offending you to try to help you.

But as usual, you see correction as an attack. Anyone in this mindset literally can no longer learn anything because they can never be wrong. That's a textbook example of being damned (inability to progress.

Don't allow yourself to be damned Bella, and quit bearing false witness that I am telling people not to follow the prophet.

Original_Intent wrote:

Rosabella wrote:Crucify me, Martyr me, mock me, call me every name in the book, but I will never agree to the idea that we are only to follow the Prophet up until we disagree with him via our personal revelations. This is the path to apostasy. If one finds oneself in conflict between their revelation and the Prophets they should take it up with those that have keys of authority over them. Taking the role of the injured party. Sorry, not gonna fly. Assuming the role of the "martyr" is indeed something I have noticed you enjoy. I advise you get over yourself.


If some one disagrees, they should stay civil and respectful and not lower themselves to attacking the messenger and not the message. No one will change my mind on this topic of following the Prophets of God because I have been told to do just that by the Lord's true Prophets.

Again the equation that anyone that disagrees is advocating not followng the prophet. No, what I and others are saying is that your interpretation of what the prophet said is INCORRECT - you are NOT following the prophet if your interpreation of what he said was incorrect. I think it has been demonstrated repeatedly in this thread that your intepretation is incorrect. We are trying to help you to follow the prophet, but your bloddy PRIDE keeps getting in the way.

No I will not FOE you as I am not your foe, you are being your own worse enemy. I will not refrain from responding to your posts, because if you promote ideas that I feel are wrong, I am going to voice my opinion and why I disagree. This gives you and others the chance to correct me. Without me swooning, putting a hand to my forehead and saying "alas! poor me! I am under attack!" You very literally DEMONIZE anyone who disagrees with you, and then accuse them of unkindness if they protest.

I will try to avoid posting to you directly, as you obviously only can respond with injured pride and playing victim. The day will come when you realize that I loved you more than anyone else on this forum because I was the one who risked offending you to try to help you.

But as usual, you see correction as an attack. Anyone in this mindset literally can no longer learn anything because they can never be wrong. That's a textbook example of being damned (inability to progress.

Don't allow yourself to be damned Bella, and quit bearing false witness that I am telling people not to follow the prophet.

OI leave me alone. Stop posting about me. You have no right to post personal attacks against me. You can post your thoughts and ideas about what I or others have said but stop defaming Character. When I post "follow the Prophet" and you know you are doing just that then let it go. Do not attack me personally over it. You have NO authority over me and your personal attacks are completely unacceptable and have in no way assisted in promoting your views. You have been more successful in making me not want to listen to anything you have to say. You will twist my words once again. But I ask please leave me out of any future comments. It is becoming harassment.

Thoughts....hmmm

Okay children bed time now. Warm milk, chill pill and night night

Glad I’m not in this thread that’s for sure

OI some people wound I guess, maybe time to give it a rest. You are entitled to your posts but no need to defend yourself unnecessarily. As in yeah we can all see what is and what isn’t.

Bella. Have you thought perhaps you are taking it too personally? He’s not calling you out. But some of your posts have a serious go at him. The way I read it he’s not saying don’t follow the prophet, he’s saying its dangerous to shut your soul off to the potential for personal revelation from GOD which might be particular to him, which might contravene otherwise given instructions (case in point aren’t we instructed not to look into the works of darkness? Before you approached/ were introduced to the GAs and were given a blessing etc, how did you decide to take it upon yourself to become an expert in this area?)

OI if you can send a message saying “Bella I accept that IF one is to follow their own personal revelation which appears to contravene instruction from the GAs, then they want to make sure they’ve got this one right or they are in serious spiritual danger” and then the thread can probably be put to rest.

Bella- so the devil is at you and trying to drag you down. Ummm. And? (I’m not trying to be smart here but is that something new to Latter Day Saints?)

Welcome to the average day of a male- going to a shopping centre, bookshop, newsagent, mall, turning on the television, listen to the radio, video shop, on the internet. You get a post from OI some 14 pages into a cranky conversation and that’s “timed from the devil”? Huh

To be honest when I read stuff like that to me it diminishes the credibility of the other stuff you focus on which I do find illuminating.

I put my hand up here and accept I might not be wired correctly to see the ethereal here and maybe life works that way with the adversary, but to me it smacks of being cranky like those painkillers CHH/ Wiiki said effected him. If you didn’t send him the email would he have replied what he did?

Go to bed kids.

AussieOi wrote:Thoughts....hmmm

Okay children bed time now. Warm milk, chill pill and night night Agreed

Glad I’m not in this thread that’s for sure No kidding

OI some people wound I guess, maybe time to give it a rest. You are entitled to your posts but no need to defend yourself unnecessarily. As in yeah we can all see what is and what isn’t. Yes it is possible to hurt peoples feelings and that does not mean they are proud.

Bella. Have you thought perhaps you are taking it too personally? He’s not calling you out. Ummm my name is all over the place with character defamation, what is "being called out" then??? But some of your posts have a serious go at him. I would like to see where I addressed anything to him in the first place The way I read it he’s not saying don’t follow the prophet, he’s saying its dangerous to shut your soul off to the potential for personal revelation from GOD which might be particular to him, which might contravene otherwise given instructions (case in point aren’t we instructed not to look into the works of darkness? I did not say he said that...Before you approached/ were introduced to the GAs and were given a blessing etc, how did you decide to take it upon yourself to become an expert in this area?) I was not LDS and I had spiritual experiences that guided me on the path of learning about the new age and its opposite the LDS Church. Once I became LDS within months they called me to ask for my research. We met and they gave me the approval to continue it. If they had said not to I would have stopped doing it. I fully believe in personal revelation for I receive it all the time, but I have never had it go against something the Church teaches. If it did I would question the source of my revelation, not the validity of the Prophet's counsel. I was not fond of Polygamy, but instead going with my own feelings, I searched out WHY it was a true principle with a humble heart and found the answers I needed to understand a principle that I originally was not fond of.

OI if you can send a message saying “Bella I accept that IF one is to follow their own personal revelation which appears to contravene instruction from the GAs, then they want to make sure they’ve got this one right or they are in serious spiritual danger” and then the thread can probably be put to rest. Yep and I would just add that they should if they can take it up with those that have keys of authority over them.

Bella- so the devil is at you and trying to drag you down. Ummm. And? (I’m not trying to be smart here but is that something new to Latter Day Saints?) NO just a really bad day Some are better some are worse the timing was unfortunate at the exact moment of a huge disaster.

Welcome to the average day of a male- going to a shopping centre, bookshop, newsagent, mall, turning on the television, listen to the radio, video shop, on the internet. You get a post from OI some 14 pages into a cranky conversation and that’s “timed from the devil”? Huh (No it was that one post where he called me out personally where at the exact same second I found out my whole website was deleted)

To be honest when I read stuff like that to me it diminishes the credibility of the other stuff you focus on which I do find illuminating. Sorry I am human and fallible You should not put me on too high of a pedestal it makes it too easy to fall off of

I put my hand up here and accept I might not be wired correctly to see the ethereal here and maybe life works that way with the adversary, but to me it smacks of being cranky like those painkillers CHH/ Wiiki said effected him. If you didn’t send him the email would he have replied what he did? huh? Not sure what you are saying here, but that is fine

Go to bed kids. Good idea

By the way I like the early post when you said something to the effect that you better be 100% sure when you go with a prompting that goes against the Prophet. I agree with you 100%

As Bugs Bunny would say. That's all folks. And goodnight to all.

Question:
What is another word for 'amazed'?

Answers:
agape, aghast, amazed, astonished, bamboozled*, beat, bewildered, blown away*, bowled over*, breathless, buffaloed*, confounded, confused, dismayed, dumb, flabbergasted, floored, knocked, licked, nonplussed, overcome, overwhelmed, puzzled, shocked, speechless, staggered, startled, stuck, stumped, stunned, surprised, taken aback, thrown, thunderstruck*

(* = informal or slang)

Flummoxed
stupified (not spelled right)
stunted
surprised
Astounded!
Awed.
Bewlidered.
surprised
Stupefied
Gravelled
Perplexed
Stunned
Transfixed
Vexed

Consider also:
addled, aimed, astonied, bilked, chiseled, dazed, deviled, graveled, incurred, kayoed, scrammed, agazed, upset, taken aback, bowled over, knocked for six, be surprised.

Oh well, I could not resist. One more for the road.
"Chapter 9: Prophets of God," Gospel Principles, (2009), 39–43

We Should Sustain the Lord’s Prophet

• What can we do to follow and sustain the prophet?

Many people find it easy to believe in the prophets of the past. But it is much greater to believe in and follow the living prophet. We raise our hands to sustain the President of the Church as prophet, seer, and revelator.
How can we sustain the prophet? We should pray for him. His burdens are heavy, and he needs to be strengthened by the prayers of the Saints.
We should study his words. We can listen to his conference addresses. We can also subscribe to the Ensign or Liahona so we can read his conference addresses and other messages he gives.
We should follow his inspired teachings completely. We should not choose to follow part of his inspired counsel and discard that which is unpleasant or difficult. The Lord commanded us to follow the inspired teachings of His prophet:
“Thou shalt give heed unto all his [the prophet’s] words and commandments which he shall give unto you as he receiveth them, walking in all holiness before me;
“For his word ye shall receive, as if from mine own mouth, in all patience and faith” (D&C 21:4–5).

N. Eldon Tanner, "There is no reason or justification for men to disregard or break the law or try to take it into their own hands." http://lds.org/general-conference/1975/ ... d?lang=eng
Boyd K. Packer, "Because the laws of man, by and large, do not raise moral issues, we are taught to honor, sustain, and obey the law (see A of F 1:12), and that “he that keepeth the laws of God hath no need to break the laws of the land” (D&C 58:21)." http://lds.org/general-conference/1992/ ... t?lang=eng
Harold B. Lee, "“Let no man break the laws of the land, for he that keepeth the laws of God hath no need to break the laws of the land.
“Wherefore, be subject to the powers that be, until he reigns whose right it is to reign, and subdues all enemies under his feet.” (D&C 58:21–22.)" http://lds.org/ensign/1973/01/teach-the ... n?lang=eng
Marion G. Romney, "The lawlessness in our society today demands that we be vigilant in our observance of this charge. The Lord has commanded us to obey both His law and the laws of the land. “For,” said He, “verily I say unto you, my law shall be kept on this land.” And further, “Let no man break the laws of the land, for he that keepeth the laws of God hath no need to break the laws of the land.” (D&C 58:19, 21.)" http://lds.org/general-conference/1976/ ... d?lang=eng
L. Tom Perry, "After all, we declare in the twelfth article of faith, “We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.” [A of F 1:12] We find that this counsel is continually needed in the Church today. All members of the Church should be committed to obeying and honoring the laws of the land in which they live. We should be exemplary in our obedience to the governments that govern us." http://lds.org/general-conference/1987/ ... -?lang=eng
Russel M. Nelson, "Inspiration has prepared the way from the beginning, when the Lord impressed the Prophet Joseph Smith to compose the twelfth article of faith: “We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.” This inspired statement was surely written for our day. The Prophet knew that the gospel was ultimately to be taken to all nations regardless of their governmental differences. He knew that the ordinances of salvation and exaltation could bless the lives of people regardless of their politics. And he knew that people who were taught correct principles and who were loyal to their civil leaders and observing of their local laws would be most able to enjoy the blessings of the gospel." http://lds.org/ensign/1991/12/drama-on- ... e?lang=eng
Neal A. Maxwell, "In our members’ diverse and sometimes stressful situations the world over, can we not follow the twelfth article of faith, rendering appropriately unto God and Caesar? After all, Jesus’ immediate audience was a repressed people living under a military protectorate supporting corrupt civil authority." http://lds.org/general-conference/1988/ ... -?lang=eng
From our beloved prophet, Thomas S. Monson, "For many years as a member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, I had responsibility for East Germany, also known as the German Democratic Republic. In this assignment, my knowledge of the Articles of Faith was most helpful. On each of my visits throughout the 20 years I supervised this area, I always reminded our members in that area of the twelfth article of faith: “We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.”
Our meetings behind what was known as the Iron Curtain were always monitored by the communist government there. In the early 1980s, when we sought approval from the government officials to build a temple there, and later when we asked permission for young men and women from that area to serve missions throughout the world and for others to come into their country to serve missions, they listened and then said, “Elder Monson, we’ve watched you for 20 years, and we’ve learned we can trust you and your Church because you and your Church teach your members to obey the laws of the land.”" http://lds.org/ensign/2007/06/examples- ... s?lang=eng
Church handbook, "21.1.21
Income Taxes

Church members are obligated by the twelfth article of faith to obey the tax laws of the nation where they reside (see also D&C 134:5). Members who disapprove of tax laws may try to have them changed by legislation or constitutional amendment. Members who have well-founded legal objections may challenge tax laws in the courts.

Church members who refuse to file a tax return, pay required income taxes, or comply with a final judgment in a tax case are in direct conflict with the law and with the teachings of the Church. Such members may be ineligible for a temple recommend and should not be called to positions of principal responsibility in the Church. Members who are convicted of willfully violating tax laws are subject to Church discipline to the extent warranted by the circumstances. http://lds.org/handbook/handbook-2-admi ... article%22

21.1.23
Laws of the Land

Members should obey, honor, and sustain the laws in any country where they reside or travel (see D&C 58:21–22; Articles of Faith 1:12). This includes laws that prohibit proselyting. http://lds.org/handbook/handbook-2-admi ... article%22

Great quotes NGL,

Indeed when I went into Russia as one of the very first missionaries there, it was made very clear to us that the reason the Soviet Government was allowing us to proselytize and to organize the church there was because they had done their homework and were satisfied that the Church would always work within and with respect for the laws of the Soviet Union. Because we waited and did not break the law to proselytize or smuggle bibles and other scriptures into Russia, we were one of the first non-native churches to be allowed to freely work there after the Soviet Parliament had passed laws permitting free exercise of religion in the Fall of 1989. Other churches including Jehovah's Witnesses had consistently broken the laws for years and consequently were refused the privileges of legal proselytizing and of official recognition by the Soviet Government. They even published positive articles about us in official newspapers. We had the good will and respect of the Soviet Government for being honest, law-abiding people of integrity who would wait patiently for it to become legal before attempting to convert any of their citizens. It was because we did not break any of their laws that they trusted us and changed their laws to allow us to operate there, because they knew we would continue to sustain their laws and teach our converts to do the same.

The quickest way to bring unnecessary persecution upon the heads of the saints is to break the laws of the land of whatever country is in question. Indeed I know of several cases including Thailand, where the church had trouble because LDS missionaries from the US did not respect local laws or sacraments. In the case of Thailand it was the result of LDS missionaries disrespectfully climbing onto a statue of Buddha inside of a temple in order to get a souvenir photograph. It made things rather difficult for the missionary work in Thailand for some time after that incident of disobeying both the temporal law and the religious sacraments of Thailand. In the case the church had told the missionaries to respect local laws and mores, but they had willfully disobeyed. In the Soviet Union, we were forbidden to take pictures of certain locations, buildings and people. I for one stuck very closely to this rule and only took pictures of tourist spots, which I knew were approved of, as well as private pictures of people in meetings, homes and baptismal services. I seem to recall there was one missionary whose camera was confiscated and the film destroyed because he had taken pictures of a forbidden subject. We were strictly told as missionaries to follow every law of the Soviet Union.

OI you made a statement a few posts back that I would like to address. You said:

A final example on the discussion at hand:

If legislation was passed that everyone needed to turn in their handguns, and the prophet repeated teh counsel to follow the law of the land, would you then turn in your guns? This, by the way is not some way out example, this is in the works and is even being done within some cities such as Washington D.C. - So, be honest and jsut answer the question - would you comply with that "legislation".

If you would turn in your guns then I state that it is you, and not I, who is not following the prophet. And if you don't understand that, then I state with no window dressing - YOU have some studying, praying and pondering to do on this matter. Please don't let pride get in the way of your growth in this matter.

I think you really need to think long and hard about what you are saying here Bro. Do you really think that the Lord would back you up if you decided to do that which was contrary to the specific directive given you by his Prophet? If you now lived in a country where guns laws were strict and unforgiving would the church back you up if you chose to openly rebel against those laws and were imprisoned because of that disobedience? I can assure you that the Brethren would not justify unlawful behavior in any way and you would lose Priesthood blessings because of your actions. Where would you draw the line between obedience and disobedience of the Lords annointed. It is a slippery slope to pick and choose when you will obey a prophet and when you decide to disobey.

Mark wrote:OI you made a statement a few posts back that I would like to address. You said:

A final example on the discussion at hand:

If legislation was passed that everyone needed to turn in their handguns, and the prophet repeated teh counsel to follow the law of the land, would you then turn in your guns? This, by the way is not some way out example, this is in the works and is even being done within some cities such as Washington D.C. - So, be honest and jsut answer the question - would you comply with that "legislation".

If you would turn in your guns then I state that it is you, and not I, who is not following the prophet. And if you don't understand that, then I state with no window dressing - YOU have some studying, praying and pondering to do on this matter. Please don't let pride get in the way of your growth in this matter.

I think you really need to think long and hard about what you are saying here Bro. Do you really think that the Lord would back you up if you decided to do that which was contrary to the specific directive given you by his Prophet? If you now lived in a country where guns laws were strict and unforgiving would the church back you up if you chose to openly rebel against those laws and were imprisoned because of that disobedience? I can assure you that the Brethren would not justify unlawful behavior in any way and you would lose Priesthood blessings because of your actions. Where would you draw the line between obedience and disobedience of the Lords annointed. It is a slippery slope to pick and choose when you will obey a prophet and when you decide to disobey.

No sadly you miss the point entirely on this one, Mark. My fault, not yours.

In the example I gave above, I made the point (even included in the quoted portion in your post) that turning in your guns would NOT be following the prophet. that is why I said that if you do not understand that turning in your guns is not following the prophet you need to study ponder and pray.

I will elaborate if you want me to, but I have found that being told something is one of the worst learning methods, and if you want to understand what I meant (if you don't already) then follow the advice I gave.

There are a good number who have posted in this thread who would know exactly what I mean and would agree with me. Not only that but it is completely in line with the gospel and the word (and spirit) of the Lord. So - reread what I posted, ESPECIALY the part you quoted) see if you can find where you misunderstood me, and then tell me if you still disagree.

This is exactly a perfect example of what has happened in this thread. You said that to do what I posted would be to pick and choose when to follow the prophet. THAT IS ABSOLUTELY NOT what I said, nor in any way shape or form implied. What I said is, a person that then turned in their gun, BELIEVING THEY WERE OBEYING THE PROPHET would be 100% incorrect, and this also exactly shows the problem with following the words of the prophet without pondering, studying and UNDERSTANDING them. Because we think we know what he said without understanding at all what he said.

Oh boy, now I have done it. Now people will read into this that I am putting MY WORDS on the same level as the words of the prophet. I can almost guarantee you that someone jumped to that conclusion. It is not due to me being unclear, it is because people refuse to get their minds out of the well-worn ruts of their programming.

Anyway, get back to me if you want clarification. Hopefully you will take my advise and study it out and pray about it. if you think anything I said in the quote above puts me in danger...I appreciate the concern, but it is unwarranted. As I am CERTAIN you will understand if you study it out.

Looks like a rough day for a few people. I hope a good night's rest will give everyone a fresh perspective tomorrow. Bella, I really hope you can find a way to recover your site. It's an insightful, valuable resource. I also hope you can conquer your current health problems.

I don't post on here often enough to be noticed much (don't worry, I am not offended by that), but I appreciate all the opinions and ideas you all post here. I have a learned a lot. Let's just all remember, this is only cyber reality so sometimes it might be best to leave the computer for a few moments and take a deep breath in real life. Good night to all!

Rosabella wrote: By the way I like the early post when you said something to the effect that you better be 100% sure when you go with a prompting that goes against the Prophet. I agree with you 100%

holy smoke you 2- can't you see you basically agree but you both have to win so badly you can't cross over just the one step to close the gap?

From what I see, you both agree on this

1) follow the prophets counsel
2) god can, and has, and may, and no doubt will, inspire some people to do somethings which may appear to directly contravene specific instruction he has given to the broader church. IF you get such a miraculous, make sure you aren't taking the easy way out and make sure you are listening to the right source. Oh. And it isn't going to happen that often either.

but you are so lost in the previous 14 pages you are missing the forest for the trees, or vice versa


Suggestion

Bella write YES here "I accept god can and does and will give personal revelation totally different to instruction given to the church through his mouthpiece the prophets- thats why we have the Holy Ghost amongst other reasons"

OI you write YES here "I accept that it can happen, but by and large isn't going to happen very often, and if you think it just did then my word you better make danged sure you're listening to the right source or you're on a road to serious disappointments in life"


Brian- lock this thread once they do that. Put us all out of our misery please

The End

Mark wrote:OI you made a statement a few posts back that I would like to address. You said:

A final example on the discussion at hand:

If legislation was passed that everyone needed to turn in their handguns, and the prophet repeated teh counsel to follow the law of the land, would you then turn in your guns? This, by the way is not some way out example, this is in the works and is even being done within some cities such as Washington D.C. - So, be honest and jsut answer the question - would you comply with that "legislation".

If you would turn in your guns then I state that it is you, and not I, who is not following the prophet. And if you don't understand that, then I state with no window dressing - YOU have some studying, praying and pondering to do on this matter. Please don't let pride get in the way of your growth in this matter.

I think you really need to think long and hard about what you are saying here Bro. Do you really think that the Lord would back you up if you decided to do that which was contrary to the specific directive given you by his Prophet? (Did I say to do any such thing? If you now lived in a country where guns laws were strict and unforgiving would the church back you up if you chose to openly rebel against those laws and were imprisoned because of that disobedience? I can assure you that the Brethren would not justify unlawful behavior in any way and you would lose Priesthood blessings because of your actions. Where would you draw the line between obedience and disobedience of the Lords annointed. I never even brought up the subject of drawing any such line. I said that in the example I gave, in the U.S., that anyone who turned in their gun is NOT obeying the prophet. That's the crux of the matter, and if you are still at a loss, re-read what I said, if you are still at a loss ponder and pray, and if you still after TRULY doing those things feel the same way, get back to me. It is a slippery slope to pick and choose when you will obey a prophet and when you decide to disobey.No I assure you the ground is quite firm here.

I decided to toss you a couple of hints to mull over.

AussieOi wrote:

Rosabella wrote: By the way I like the early post when you said something to the effect that you better be 100% sure when you go with a prompting that goes against the Prophet. I agree with you 100%

holy smoke you 2- can't you see you basically agree but you both have to win so badly you can't cross over just the one step to close the gap?

From what I see, you both agree on this

1) follow the prophets counsel
2) god can, and has, and may, and no doubt will, inspire some people to do somethings which may appear to directly contravene specific instruction he has given to the broader church. IF you get such a miraculous, make sure you aren't taking the easy way out and make sure you are listening to the right source. Oh. And it isn't going to happen that often either.

but you are so lost in the previous 14 pages you are missing the forest for the trees, or vice versa


Suggestion

Bella write YES here "I accept god can and does and will give personal revelation totally different to instruction given to the church through his mouthpiece the prophets- thats why we have the Holy Ghost amongst other reasons"

OI you write YES here "I accept that it can happen, but by and large isn't going to happen very often, and if you think it just did then my word you better make danged sure you're listening to the right source or you're on a road to serious disappointments in life"


Brian- lock this thread once they do that. Put us all out of our misery please

The End

Yes to what you wanted me to say - i ahve said precisely that previously in the thread but if you want me to repeat it, fine. But none if this that you want us to say yes and pinky swear to has naything to do witht he thread subject, now, does it?

Original_Intent wrote:

Mark wrote:OI you made a statement a few posts back that I would like to address. You said:

A final example on the discussion at hand:

If legislation was passed that everyone needed to turn in their handguns, and the prophet repeated teh counsel to follow the law of the land, would you then turn in your guns? This, by the way is not some way out example, this is in the works and is even being done within some cities such as Washington D.C. - So, be honest and jsut answer the question - would you comply with that "legislation".

If you would turn in your guns then I state that it is you, and not I, who is not following the prophet. And if you don't understand that, then I state with no window dressing - YOU have some studying, praying and pondering to do on this matter. Please don't let pride get in the way of your growth in this matter.

I think you really need to think long and hard about what you are saying here Bro. Do you really think that the Lord would back you up if you decided to do that which was contrary to the specific directive given you by his Prophet? (Did I say to do any such thing? If you now lived in a country where guns laws were strict and unforgiving would the church back you up if you chose to openly rebel against those laws and were imprisoned because of that disobedience? I can assure you that the Brethren would not justify unlawful behavior in any way and you would lose Priesthood blessings because of your actions. Where would you draw the line between obedience and disobedience of the Lords annointed. I never even brought up the subject of drawing any such line. I said that in the example I gave, in the U.S., that anyone who turned in their gun is NOT obeying the prophet. That's the crux of the matter, and if you are still at a loss, re-read what I said, if you are still at a loss ponder and pray, and if you still after TRULY doing those things feel the same way, get back to me. It is a slippery slope to pick and choose when you will obey a prophet and when you decide to disobey.No I assure you the ground is quite firm here.

I decided to toss you a couple of hints to mull over.

I do not want to post this...but has anyone on this site lived in a city that has a no gun law other than me? If so, would you tell everyone what the Church counsel is to members that live in such a city. I really do not feel like getting more involved in this debate.

Original_Intent wrote:

Mark wrote:OI you made a statement a few posts back that I would like to address. You said:

A final example on the discussion at hand:

If legislation was passed that everyone needed to turn in their handguns, and the prophet repeated teh counsel to follow the law of the land, would you then turn in your guns? This, by the way is not some way out example, this is in the works and is even being done within some cities such as Washington D.C. - So, be honest and jsut answer the question - would you comply with that "legislation".

If you would turn in your guns then I state that it is you, and not I, who is not following the prophet. And if you don't understand that, then I state with no window dressing - YOU have some studying, praying and pondering to do on this matter. Please don't let pride get in the way of your growth in this matter.

I think you really need to think long and hard about what you are saying here Bro. Do you really think that the Lord would back you up if you decided to do that which was contrary to the specific directive given you by his Prophet? (Did I say to do any such thing? If you now lived in a country where guns laws were strict and unforgiving would the church back you up if you chose to openly rebel against those laws and were imprisoned because of that disobedience? I can assure you that the Brethren would not justify unlawful behavior in any way and you would lose Priesthood blessings because of your actions. Where would you draw the line between obedience and disobedience of the Lords annointed. I never even brought up the subject of drawing any such line. I said that in the example I gave, in the U.S., that anyone who turned in their gun is NOT obeying the prophet. That's the crux of the matter, and if you are still at a loss, re-read what I said, if you are still at a loss ponder and pray, and if you still after TRULY doing those things feel the same way, get back to me. It is a slippery slope to pick and choose when you will obey a prophet and when you decide to disobey.No I assure you the ground is quite firm here.

I decided to toss you a couple of hints to mull over.

I know that I am probably a bit slow here Bro but I am still confused of your point. I Must not be reading you carefully enough. Perhaps Aussie can interpret for you as he is on a roll.

Mark wrote: I know that I am probably a bit slow here Bro but I am still confused of your point. I Must not be reading you carefully enough. Perhaps Aussie can interpret for you as he is on a roll.

I'd prefer you put a little effort into it. Things learned by the spirit tend to stick with us a lot more than simply being "told" something.
I'll give you a day or two, if you are still at a loss or are just not going to make the effort, I'll explain. But I am expecting there are a good number who have posted in this thread that understand exactly what I am saying. Maybe not though.