Submission to secular authority.

[NoGreaterLove]

hy does it always have to be the HG is my own will but the Prophet is Gods will?

Because their will is the same, they are one in purpose. They can not be separated. That is what some do not get. God speaks through his prophet using the power of the Holy Ghost. The Holy Ghost is not going to tell you something different, that you are an exception. Not going to happen.

[truthseeker]

To say that the possibility exists that personal revelation may tell someone to do something different from what the general revelation from God's appointed leaders have said, does not imply in any way that therefore we no longer need to listen and follow God's leaders. When God gives reflation through his prophet, it applies to everyone generally. There will be no personal revelation given that is different unless an exception exists. Also, to say a person no longer needs prophets because they can get all the revelation they need is a fallacy. This is not true. The economy of God is that guidance and light and truth that apply generally to everyone will come through the prophet. It cannot be obtained a different way. It can be confirmed by the holy ghost but it won't be received by each person individually. We each can receive according to our stewardship. The prophet has a stewardship for all of God's children on the earth. However, this does not mean exceptions and personal revelation based on an individuals circumstances cannot exist.

"There are not enough general authorities to do all the thinking for the membership of
the church." J. Golden Kimball

We have already received instruction to prepare for the coming storms in these latter days. The prophet warned us that we must seek our own light of Christ within us, showing that we cannot progress on our spiritual path while depending on the light from others. Elder Charles Dider had said,

The gift of the Holy Ghost is the foundation of the bridge of faith....

...The inner feelings and promptings to overcome the obstacles of life and to make righteous choices will come by listening to the voice of the Holy Ghost. Crossing the bridge of faith may not be as easy as we may think. A bridge will only resist the storms because of the strength of the pillars of its foundation....

... A cry for increased faith at such a time will always be answered by the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, a "constant companion,... an unchanging scepter of righteousness and truth" (DC 121:46).

(Charles Didier, "Building a Bridge of Faith," Ensign, Nov. 2001, 10)
Borrowed light is not a substitute for the Holy Ghost, because borrowed light means to lean on others who carry God’s light. (Past) President Ezra Taft Benson said,

"The time will come when no man nor woman will be able to endure on borrowed light. Each will have to be guided by the light within himself."

...If you don’t have it you will not stand; therefore seek for the testimony of Jesus and cleave to it, that when the trying time comes you may not stumble and fall."

(Ezra Taft Benson, "Valiant in the Testimony of Jesus," Ensign, May 1982, 62)

President James Faust said,

"We will not be able to travel through life on borrowed light. The light of life must be part of our very being. The voice we must learn to heed is the voice of the Spirit."

(James E. Faust, "The Voice of the Spirit," Liahona, Sept. 1995, 17)

[SAM]

I've been the rounds on this discussion multiple times. I think part of the answer lies in the terms we use. The first presidency and apostles are general authorities which means they give general counsel for the entire church, a large, ever-growing, diverse church. Many times, that is the only counsel we need from the Lord, but there are also many times when personal revelation is needed in order for us to obtain our personal missions and errands from the Lord, His will for our personal lives. As has already been stated a number of times, counsel from the prophets, both modern and ancient, are one tool for obtaining the Lord's will for us. Personal revelation is yet another. Each of us needs different things to progress. How amazing that the Lord provides so many ways for us to seek and obtain His will.

I don't think anyone on here has said the prophets' words are useless or less important than personal revelation. They are all key to our progression and coming closer to Christ, since they both should be bring us closer to Him. The prophets' words and true personal revelation will almost always be aligned, but there are examples where exceptions do exist. However, like Aussie said, if you find yourself in a position where personal revelation is different than the prophetic counsel of the day, you'd better be sure you are receiving revelation from the right source. I think we can all agree on that, can't we?

[Rosabella]

One is not living on Borrowed light when listening and obeying a Prophet of God. He is following the very words of God. If you break from the counsel of God through His Prophet you lose the Holy Ghost. If you even speak against the Lord's anointed you lose the Holy Ghost.

Everyone seems to be so focused on being spiritually Self-reliant. We are to have the Holy Ghost as our Constant Companion and be as close as we can be with Him. For our very testimonies and lives will depend on Him. But if we think through the paradigm that all our promptings are revelations from God and superior to the Prophet's counsel we have we have opened ourselves up to false revelation. I fear this idea of being soooo self-directed in spiritual matters will be the undoing of many Church members. All the Prophet has to do is say something counter to what one feels deeply about. How many here would think the Prophet had gone apostate if he spoke out against 911 truthism? Everyone has their area that they feel "enlightened" about. This area may or may not be truth. It all comes down to will you give it up if the Prophet said to?

To be self-reliant one must know FIRST where they stand with the Prophet. For we are told he will never lead us astray.

I am a convert. I know that one must receive a revelation that the Prophet is true , that the Church is true, that the Book of Mormon is true, that God is real, and that Christ is the Savior. Once you receive these truths you are responsible for acting in accordance with them, including accepting the Prophet's word whether you like it or not and following it.

If one does not follow the Prophet they will be swept out of the Church as the sifting takes place.

[Original_Intent]

Just pondering this new paradigm I have come to thanks to the posters on this thread. If the Modern LDS Prophets are just good man whose counsel I can just take or leave depending on how I feel about it, then so are all the Apostles and Prophets who wrote the Book of Mormon and Old and New Testaments. I guess that means that even the Gospel of Jesus Christ could turn out to be no more than just good men's theories, no more reliable then my own and I trust myself more than other people anyway. In seeing this new found truth. I can now see that the only truth that could really exist is a truth that flows through all the world religions. One that is universal and without mans judgments, fears and hatred. That universal thread of truth is currently being taught and popularized by good men and women that seek Love and tolerance for all humanity and all lifestyles and all the creations upon this earth. We are all just one anyway. We all come from the same source. Therefore there must not be a good and evil for all is God and all is the creation of God. God would not create evil therefore evil does not exist. God is just the force of creation in the universe. In knowing this I now know that within myself I hold all the keys to Godhood. I am God , I am my own Salvation and there is no need for a Savior or any useless sacrifice to redeem my already Divine Soul.

This twisting of others words is unworthy of you Rosabella.

I have come to understand through this thread that winning the argument is more important than haveing a conversation and trying to seek the truth thru a discussion of different ideas.

Although I have in the past had the utmost respect for you and NGL, your behavior in this thread, both of you, is absolutely shameful. In matters where you have spent years of study, I totally respect and admire your work and your opinion. What you fail to understand is that there are people who have spent decades understanding what the law of the land is, understanding the Constitution, and understanding our duties as regards to government. Because of your expertise in one area (New Age Spirituality) this does not make you expert in this, and the fact that in my opinion you have been clearly demonstrated by many to be flat out wrong, and you completely trample those opinions, ignore any points raised that does not conform with your paradigm, and put forth that anyone in disagreement with you is "against following the prophet"....(SORRY BUT SUDDENLY MY CAPS LOCK WILL NOT UNDO I AM NOT TRYING TO BE RUDE BUT WANT TO COMPLETE POST BEFORE I REBOOT MY COMPUTER) TO CONTINUE>>>IT MAKES ME WANT TO HAVE NO FURTHER DISCUSSION WITH YOU THAT DOES NOT HAVE TO DO WITH NEW AGE> YOU HAVE SHOWN YOURSELF COMPLETELY INCAPABLE OF HONEST DISCOURSE AND INSTEAD TWIST OTHERS WORDS TO THE MOST EXTREME AND RIDICULOUS MEANINGS> IT SHOWS ME THAT EVEN SOMEONE WHO "PRIDES" THEMSELF ON THEIR HUMILITY IS INDEED INFECTED WITHT HAT UNIVERSAL SIN AND I HAVE YET TO EVER< EVER! SEE YOU ADMIT TO BEING INCORRECT< YOU ARE ALWAYS RIGHT< AND ANYONE WHO DISAGREES IS AGAINST THE PROPHET AND AGAINST THE SCRIPTURES _ AT LEAST AS INTERPRETTED BY BELLA> SORRY IF THIS MAKES YOU RETREAT TO YOUR OWN WEBSITE< IT SEEMS LIKE THAT IS YOUR MODUS OPERANDI WHEN CHALLENGED AND IT IS POINTED OUT THAT YOU ARE DEAD WRONG>

I EXPECT TO BE GETTING A WARNIMG EMAIL FROM BRIAN< AND THIS POST WILL LIKELY BE REMOVED> Brian, (hey caps lock went off!) before you remove this post - yes this post is directed at individuals and is very direct. However, it is not given in a spirit of hate or anger, it is in a spirit of asking NGL and Bella to do a little soul searching, review this thread and see if they cannot see "a problem" with their behavior. I don;t wnat to chase anyone off, but I am tired of the bullying and the accusations of apostasy, listening to evil spirits, etc. The line of argument that "anyone who disagrees with me on anything is clearly against the prophet" has no place here and is every bit as rude and harmful as anything in this post.

A final example on the discussion at hand:

If legislation was passed that everyone needed to turn in their handguns, and the prophet repeated teh counsel to follow the law of the land, would you then turn in your guns? This, by the way is not some way out example, this is in the works and is even being done within some cities such as Washington D.C. - So, be honest and jsut answer the question - would you comply with that "legislation".

If you would turn in your guns then I state that it is you, and not I, who is not following the prophet. And if you don't understand that, then I state with no window dressing - YOU have some studying, praying and pondering to do on this matter. Please don't let pride get in the way of your growth in this matter.

I know that I said this a few pages back, but I am really donw with this discussion. It is very clear to me where everyone stands, and I am so grateful that in this matter there are some people with understanding such as Mummy, LittleLion, Mummy, and SwissMiss&Pitchfire. This is an area where I feel like I do have expertise and have spent decades researching and understanding (just as Bella has done on New Age Spirituality.) Sadly, it appears that gaining expertise in one aspect brings some people to think that they are the most knowledgable in all areas. They know how to teach but have forgotten how to be a student. Seems to me that anyone who gets into that state, it would make their progression well nigh impossible.

[Jason]

I know that one must receive a revelation that the Prophet is true , that the Church is true, that the Book of Mormon is true, that God is real, and that Christ is the Savior. Once you receive these truths you are responsible for acting in accordance with them, including accepting the Prophet's word whether you like it or not and following it.

AMEN!!!

Although I might add that its not a one time thing......one must continue to be in alignment with the Spirit and its a continual process. For example Brigham Young didn't take Joseph's word on polygamy but sought the counsel of the Lord directly. After receiving a confirmation of the Spirit Brigham then fully accepted polygamy. This is not just Brigham's testimony but that of his wife who overheard the conversation.

If we find ourselves out of alignment with the counsel given.....imo then we seriously need to reflect on our position and fast and pray. Ultimately I will go with the promptings of the Spirit....but to each their own. I have to do what I know to be true in my heart. I have to be at peace with myself and the direction I have been given through the Spirit....my first priority. The Spirit is the direct source of the Father's will....and may the Father's will be done and not mine!

[Original_Intent]

The prophet leads the church and the members. Nobody can do that except the Prophet, as that is his stewardship and he hold the keys. We should follow the Lords prophet and apostles. We must also be worthy and able to recieve personal revelation and follow. Both together will lead us back to the Father. BOTH. Not one or the other, Both.

We all should be seeking the Lord in this life through his prophets words and the Holy Ghost..

But I keep hearing that personal revelation trumps the prophet. Therefore my new paradigm that I was prompted to must be the truth. Personal Revelation first Prophets second. That is what I have gathered from this thread. And since I can get all the revelation myself I really do not need a prophet at all.

And what I keep hearing from you is that if the prophet said one thing, then even if you got personal visitation and you could verify them as "true messengers", and they told you that you personally were to do anything different, that this would not be valid because personal revelation is at the BOTTOM of the list. I say it is at the top, you should be getting personal revelation to confirm everything the prophet says.

[LittleLion]

Once you receive these truths you are responsible for acting in accordance with them, including accepting the Prophet's word whether you like it or not and following it.

We have all followed counsel that we did not like since we were children. Sometimes we obeyed because we were compelled and sometimes because the light of Christ which is in all Gods children, or in other words our conscience, helped us make the correct decisions. You know as well as I that there are people in this world that are not members of any religion and do not follow any Prophet but they still live a Christ like life in almost every way. They rely on the still small voice inside them to act in accordance with what is right and righteous. There is nothing wrong with acting in accordance with your inner voice and the light of Christ you have inside you even if you are a member of the Church and have sustained the Prophet because most all the time they are going to be the same!

When there is a choice between obeying the law of the land and your inner voice that is screaming and telling you something is not right, you should act on that which you hold dear and know is right and righteous before God even if it is against the law of the land. Yes you may pay the price that evil men put on not obeying their laws, but you will still be in tune with the Lord and have nothing to fear. There can be choices that are both correct! One choice leaves you being justified before Christ to later be sanctified and the other one sanctifies you immediately. Yes by following the prophet at all times you will always be safe and sound in the Lord. But there are times when even a Prophet would make a different decision based on the circumstances!

And what I keep hearing from you is that if the prophet said one thing, then even if you got personal visitation and you could verify them as "true messengers", and they told you that you personally were to do anything different, that this would not be valid because personal revelation is at the BOTTOM of the list. I say it is at the top, you should be getting personal revelation to confirm everything the prophet says.

I wholeheartedly agree with this OI. Rosabella admitted that "one must receive a revelation that the Prophet is true , that the Church is true, that the Book of Mormon is true, that God is real, and that Christ is the Savior." But then she tells us that this all changes after we become a member of the church, that we should no longer put the same trust in that spirit that told us the Church was true. I disagree wholeheartedly with this also.

[Original_Intent]

One last word, I promise.

The prophet has told as to follow the law of the land.

As shown VERY clearly in this thread, there are multiple intepretations of what that means. If we lack understanding does that mean that we wait for clarification from the prophet? Or do we seek personal revelation to clarify it for us, and if we are unable to reach a conclusion we turn to our local leaders, who in turn can go to the general authorities for clarification if needed.

I think this is the crux of the matter. At least in this discussion, which way back at some point was about submitting to secular authority. (But as happens so often devolved into a "I'm following the prophet and YOU'RE NOT!" argument.) Let's return to the subject at hand. Let's assume that everyone here is in agreement that we are to obey the law of the land.

Where we are having disagreement (and frankly it shows who has studied and pndered the matter and who has not) is:

What constitutes the laws of the land?
Are there EVER exceptions when the Lord commands an individual to act differently than the general instructions given thru the prophet?

As to the first question, my answer is that it is the law that complies with the original intent of the Constitution and does not exceed the limited authority granted by the Constitution. Any LEGISLATION outside of this boundary is NOT THE LAW of the land, and at that point, barring SPECIFIC INSTRUCTION from church authorities, we are NOT OBLIGED to obey in regards to the instruction given to the prophet. Now what are we going to obey simply out of WISDOM? AHA! This is where personal revelation MUST come in. If I live in a city that says all gun ownership is illegal, am I bound to obey that law? Actually those who made such a law or try to enforce such a law - THEY are the ones not following the law of the land, not me! Must we ask the prophet or wait for clarification from the prophet before deciding? If you take this position you are an unwise and slothful servant. No if's ands or buts. The prophet cannot be speaking to interpreation of every law in every country throughout the world. First, it simply could not be accomplished. Second, for the church to "weigh in" on every piece of legislation like that would simply destroy the church. Wow! It's almost like Heavenly Father saw the inherent problem and PROVIDED IN HIS WISDOM for it!

The prophet would not come into your home and call on someone to say the closing prayer at family home evening! If he were there he would defer to the father because in that setting the father's authority exceeds his own!

The End. Really.

[Squally]

The prophet would not come into your home and call on someone to say the closing prayer at family home evening! If he were there he would defer to the father because in that setting the father's authority exceeds his own!

Amen!

[Rosabella]

Just pondering this new paradigm I have come to thanks to the posters on this thread. If the Modern LDS Prophets are just good man whose counsel I can just take or leave depending on how I feel about it, then so are all the Apostles and Prophets who wrote the Book of Mormon and Old and New Testaments. I guess that means that even the Gospel of Jesus Christ could turn out to be no more than just good men's theories, no more reliable then my own and I trust myself more than other people anyway. In seeing this new found truth. I can now see that the only truth that could really exist is a truth that flows through all the world religions. One that is universal and without mans judgments, fears and hatred. That universal thread of truth is currently being taught and popularized by good men and women that seek Love and tolerance for all humanity and all lifestyles and all the creations upon this earth. We are all just one anyway. We all come from the same source. Therefore there must not be a good and evil for all is God and all is the creation of God. God would not create evil therefore evil does not exist. God is just the force of creation in the universe. In knowing this I now know that within myself I hold all the keys to Godhood. I am God , I am my own Salvation and there is no need for a Savior or any useless sacrifice to redeem my already Divine Soul.

This twisting of others words is unworthy of you Rosabella.

I have come to understand through this thread that winning the argument is more important than haveing a conversation and trying to seek the truth thru a discussion of different ideas.

Although I have in the past had the utmost respect for you and NGL, your behavior in this thread, both of you, is absolutely shameful. In matters where you have spent years of study, I totally respect and admire your work and your opinion. What you fail to understand is that there are people who have spent decades understanding what the law of the land is, understanding the Constitution, and understanding our duties as regards to government. Because of your expertise in one area (New Age Spirituality) this does not make you expert in this, and the fact that in my opinion you have been clearly demonstrated by many to be flat out wrong, and you completely trample those opinions, ignore any points raised that does not conform with your paradigm, and put forth that anyone in disagreement with you is "against following the prophet"....(SORRY BUT SUDDENLY MY CAPS LOCK WILL NOT UNDO I AM NOT TRYING TO BE RUDE BUT WANT TO COMPLETE POST BEFORE I REBOOT MY COMPUTER) TO CONTINUE>>>IT MAKES ME WANT TO HAVE NO FURTHER DISCUSSION WITH YOU THAT DOES NOT HAVE TO DO WITH NEW AGE> YOU HAVE SHOWN YOURSELF COMPLETELY INCAPABLE OF HONEST DISCOURSE AND INSTEAD TWIST OTHERS WORDS TO THE MOST EXTREME AND RIDICULOUS MEANINGS> IT SHOWS ME THAT EVEN SOMEONE WHO "PRIDES" THEMSELF ON THEIR HUMILITY IS INDEED INFECTED WITHT HAT UNIVERSAL SIN AND I HAVE YET TO EVER< EVER! SEE YOU ADMIT TO BEING INCORRECT< YOU ARE ALWAYS RIGHT< AND ANYONE WHO DISAGREES IS AGAINST THE PROPHET AND AGAINST THE SCRIPTURES _ AT LEAST AS INTERPRETTED BY BELLA> SORRY IF THIS MAKES YOU RETREAT TO YOUR OWN WEBSITE< IT SEEMS LIKE THAT IS YOUR MODUS OPERANDI WHEN CHALLENGED AND IT IS POINTED OUT THAT YOU ARE DEAD WRONG>

I EXPECT TO BE GETTING A WARNIMG EMAIL FROM BRIAN< AND THIS POST WILL LIKELY BE REMOVED> Brian, (hey caps lock went off!) before you remove this post - yes this post is directed at individuals and is very direct. However, it is not given in a spirit of hate or anger, it is in a spirit of asking NGL and Bella to do a little soul searching, review this thread and see if they cannot see "a problem" with their behavior. I don;t wnat to chase anyone off, but I am tired of the bullying and the accusations of apostasy, listening to evil spirits, etc. The line of argument that "anyone who disagrees with me on anything is clearly against the prophet" has no place here and is every bit as rude and harmful as anything in this post.

A final example on the discussion at hand:

If legislation was passed that everyone needed to turn in their handguns, and the prophet repeated teh counsel to follow the law of the land, would you then turn in your guns? This, by the way is not some way out example, this is in the works and is even being done within some cities such as Washington D.C. - So, be honest and jsut answer the question - would you comply with that "legislation".

If you would turn in your guns then I state that it is you, and not I, who is not following the prophet. And if you don't understand that, then I state with no window dressing - YOU have some studying, praying and pondering to do on this matter. Please don't let pride get in the way of your growth in this matter.

I know that I said this a few pages back, but I am really donw with this discussion. It is very clear to me where everyone stands, and I am so grateful that in this matter there are some people with understanding such as Mummy, LittleLion, Mummy, and SwissMiss&Pitchfire. This is an area where I feel like I do have expertise and have spent decades researching and understanding (just as Bella has done on New Age Spirituality.) Sadly, it appears that gaining expertise in one aspect brings some people to think that they are the most knowledgable in all areas. They know how to teach but have forgotten how to be a student. Seems to me that anyone who gets into that state, it would make their progression well nigh impossible.

Thank you for this personal attack OI it lets me know what you really think of me. I wondered and now I know.

Just to let you know this post to me came at the very second (not kidding the exact time I read you words) that I found on that My WHOLE WEBSITE and all of it data accidentally got deleted. Therefore there is NO website for me to retreat to. IT IS GONE. It is great to know I have such supportive "friends" on one of the worst days I have had.

At his point I have no way to rebuild my website. I might be able to find some part of it to put it back together, but it will take forever to do it, it appears. And some things are lost FOREVER.

I look at it this way the devil likes to attack me and he sure did today though various means.

Right at this moment reading your words makes me want to NOT rebuild my website and just give up. I am undecided what I will do.

[buffalo_girl]

it's utterly silly to make up theoretical and fictitious laws in order to argue "what if" when such do not exist

The two examples to which I gave reference ARE NOT theoretical nor fictitious. If they were 'assumed' to be theoretical then you need to return to those posts and follow the links to original sources.

I am not able to perpetually respond to every 'tit for tat' on these umpteen pages of 'finger wagging' - as someone described posts from a few who seem to suggest a catbird seat on the moral high ground.

'Utterly silly' is responding to an assumed paradigm founded upon one's willful disinterest in what others are trying to communicate.

[Original_Intent]

I am truly very sorry about the website.

As I tried to convey to you, dear Rosa, your insights into areas of your expertise are INVALUABLE and I eagerly sit at your feet as the student when you are expounding on those matters.

What is very frustrating is when you refuse to acknowlege that there are some areas that your word is not the final say or the essence of pure light and truth. And even though you are much more subtle in your "personal attacks" your insinuation that anyone who disagrees with you is not following the prophet is every bit as mean spirited, as demoralizing, as hurtful as anything I have said towards you.

I am sorry I had to get direct with you, however, your and NGL's behavior in this thread called for some direct speaking. I think it is you who likes to say the wicked takes the truth to be a hard thing spoken against them. Here is an opportunity for you to see that those words apply to you as well as those who you speak condescendingly to and using those words as an accusation and as a point in winning your argument.

I don;t care one whit about winning arguments, I care about the truth. There are numberous times when I have THANKED the person that I had disagreed with because they had convinced me of the error in my own conclusions - in fact you have been the RECIPIENT of said thanks several times.

Allow me to get a bit direct again - the thanks others get when they try to enlighten you on anything has been to be called apostate and against the prophet. Try to get outside of yourself for one minute to see how that appears. it appears that you are saying Rosabella's words = the prophets words = the undisputed and undisputable truth. To disagree with Rosa is to be on the road to apostasy. And I'm sorry to say it Rosa, but it boils down to a pride issue, a complete inability to acknowledge that someone (other than the prophet!) might actually have some glimmer or understanding of truth superior to your own.

Excuse my bluntness. I am only so blunt with my friends and those that I respect. It is my challenge to you to be better, but only because I already expect the best of you. There are those that would say don't take it so personally - I tell you it is meant personally, I mean for it to hurt - not for the pain;s sake but because as I AM SURE YOU ARE AWARE - growth is almost always accompanied by pain.

It takes more love to give someone what they need as opposed to what they want. What you WANT, as far as I can see, is a following that does nothing but nod at your indisputable wisdom and everyone marbeliing at your incredible insight and wisdom. And there are AREAS OF EXPERTISE where this is definitely due to you and all the good work you have done. However, what you need (at least as far as this imperfect individual can tell, I ask forgiveness of you and the Lord if my discernment is wrong in this matter) is for you to be told - plainly - teach in those areas that you are qualified to teach, and have the HUMILITY to learn from others in areas where you are weak.

You consider me your enemy, nothing could be further from the truth. I LOVE YOU. I LOVE NGL. I love everyone on this site that I have heard enough from to know them to any extent (even those I strongly disagree with on some issues, yes Bob, I love you too! and thank you, Bob, for forcing me to at least rethink a good many things!)

I do hope that you get your website fixed. Even though I did not post there much if at all, I did stop by regularly to see what new wonderful things you have posted.

Indeed the enemy is attacking us from all sides, and you have indicated that I have been a tool of the devil by "attacking" you. We are going to need to learn to stand together in order to survive what is coming. This includes dealing with people some of whom we may have some strong disagreements with. Are you ready for it?

[Original_Intent]

Just pondering this new paradigm I have come to thanks to the posters on this thread. If the Modern LDS Prophets are just good man whose counsel I can just take or leave depending on how I feel about it, then so are all the Apostles and Prophets who wrote the Book of Mormon and Old and New Testaments. I guess that means that even the Gospel of Jesus Christ could turn out to be no more than just good men's theories, no more reliable then my own and I trust myself more than other people anyway. In seeing this new found truth. I can now see that the only truth that could really exist is a truth that flows through all the world religions. One that is universal and without mans judgments, fears and hatred. That universal thread of truth is currently being taught and popularized by good men and women that seek Love and tolerance for all humanity and all lifestyles and all the creations upon this earth. We are all just one anyway. We all come from the same source. Therefore there must not be a good and evil for all is God and all is the creation of God. God would not create evil therefore evil does not exist. God is just the force of creation in the universe. In knowing this I now know that within myself I hold all the keys to Godhood. I am God , I am my own Salvation and there is no need for a Savior or any useless sacrifice to redeem my already Divine Soul.

This twisting of others words is unworthy of you Rosabella.

I have come to understand through this thread that winning the argument is more important than haveing a conversation and trying to seek the truth thru a discussion of different ideas.

Although I have in the past had the utmost respect for you and NGL, your behavior in this thread, both of you, is absolutely shameful. In matters where you have spent years of study, I totally respect and admire your work and your opinion. What you fail to understand is that there are people who have spent decades understanding what the law of the land is, understanding the Constitution, and understanding our duties as regards to government. Because of your expertise in one area (New Age Spirituality) this does not make you expert in this, and the fact that in my opinion you have been clearly demonstrated by many to be flat out wrong, and you completely trample those opinions, ignore any points raised that does not conform with your paradigm, and put forth that anyone in disagreement with you is "against following the prophet"....(SORRY BUT SUDDENLY MY CAPS LOCK WILL NOT UNDO I AM NOT TRYING TO BE RUDE BUT WANT TO COMPLETE POST BEFORE I REBOOT MY COMPUTER) TO CONTINUE>>>IT MAKES ME WANT TO HAVE NO FURTHER DISCUSSION WITH YOU THAT DOES NOT HAVE TO DO WITH NEW AGE> YOU HAVE SHOWN YOURSELF COMPLETELY INCAPABLE OF HONEST DISCOURSE AND INSTEAD TWIST OTHERS WORDS TO THE MOST EXTREME AND RIDICULOUS MEANINGS> IT SHOWS ME THAT EVEN SOMEONE WHO "PRIDES" THEMSELF ON THEIR HUMILITY IS INDEED INFECTED WITHT HAT UNIVERSAL SIN AND I HAVE YET TO EVER< EVER! SEE YOU ADMIT TO BEING INCORRECT< YOU ARE ALWAYS RIGHT< AND ANYONE WHO DISAGREES IS AGAINST THE PROPHET AND AGAINST THE SCRIPTURES _ AT LEAST AS INTERPRETTED BY BELLA> SORRY IF THIS MAKES YOU RETREAT TO YOUR OWN WEBSITE< IT SEEMS LIKE THAT IS YOUR MODUS OPERANDI WHEN CHALLENGED AND IT IS POINTED OUT THAT YOU ARE DEAD WRONG>

I EXPECT TO BE GETTING A WARNIMG EMAIL FROM BRIAN< AND THIS POST WILL LIKELY BE REMOVED> Brian, (hey caps lock went off!) before you remove this post - yes this post is directed at individuals and is very direct. However, it is not given in a spirit of hate or anger, it is in a spirit of asking NGL and Bella to do a little soul searching, review this thread and see if they cannot see "a problem" with their behavior. I don;t wnat to chase anyone off, but I am tired of the bullying and the accusations of apostasy, listening to evil spirits, etc. The line of argument that "anyone who disagrees with me on anything is clearly against the prophet" has no place here and is every bit as rude and harmful as anything in this post.

A final example on the discussion at hand:

If legislation was passed that everyone needed to turn in their handguns, and the prophet repeated teh counsel to follow the law of the land, would you then turn in your guns? This, by the way is not some way out example, this is in the works and is even being done within some cities such as Washington D.C. - So, be honest and jsut answer the question - would you comply with that "legislation".

If you would turn in your guns then I state that it is you, and not I, who is not following the prophet. And if you don't understand that, then I state with no window dressing - YOU have some studying, praying and pondering to do on this matter. Please don't let pride get in the way of your growth in this matter.

I know that I said this a few pages back, but I am really donw with this discussion. It is very clear to me where everyone stands, and I am so grateful that in this matter there are some people with understanding such as Mummy, LittleLion, Mummy, and SwissMiss&Pitchfire. This is an area where I feel like I do have expertise and have spent decades researching and understanding (just as Bella has done on New Age Spirituality.) Sadly, it appears that gaining expertise in one aspect brings some people to think that they are the most knowledgable in all areas. They know how to teach but have forgotten how to be a student. Seems to me that anyone who gets into that state, it would make their progression well nigh impossible.

Thank you for this personal attack OI it lets me know what you really think of me. I wondered and now I know.

Just to let you know this post to me came at the very second (not kidding the exact time I read you words) that I found on that My WHOLE WEBSITE and all of it data accidentally got deleted. Therefore there is NO website for me to retreat to. IT IS GONE. It is great to know I have such supportive "friends" on one of the worst days I have had.

At his point I have no way to rebuild my website. I might be able to find some part of it to put it back together, but it will take forever to do it, it appears. And some things are lost FOREVER.

I look at it this way the devil likes to attack me and he sure did today though various means. The clear implication here is that I have acted, either willingly or thru error, as a tool of the devil. And yet I am accused of personal attacks! Sorry Rosabella but I am not going to stand for your prideful bullying any more. And I am not going to stand quietly by while you take the wounded victim stance just because I won't allow you to politely walk all over me and others. You have no idea what I think of you if you think of me as your enemy. I see a valiant warrior for good, who is severely crippling her own growth.

Right at this moment reading your words makes me want to NOT rebuild my website and just give up. I am undecided what I will do.

[Squally]

We each have a duty to follow the Lord. This solves the debate.

Some may believe that the prophet will tell them all things they should do (milk, children of Isreal). I disagree. Only the spirit can be our constant companion; and the spirit can bring all things to our remembrance.

Faith not fear should be leading our progression in this mortal probation. Some may fear personal revelation, and instead wait for the prophet to tell them what they are to do.

As has been prophesied in these last days, many will stand still not knowing what to do.

A fear of personal revelation will hinder our progression and potentially completely separate us from the Lord. It takes faith to follow the Lord. Let us not cast aside the greatest witness.

No one can fill our personal lamp with oil. The Bridegroom cometh soon.

[Rosabella]

OI

You have attacked me numerous times with this similar mantra when I do not agree with you OI. You always say that I am the one that pulls the "I have met with GA's card" or "that I am always right" That I do not listen to anyone else" blah blah blah.

Personally I am extremely tired of you personal attacks against me. I have every right to post what I post and defend my beliefs as you do. This does not mean that I am saying Bella=The Prophet. I am extremely sick of being portrayed that way by you. If this is what you believe me to be then please put me as FOE and do not read ANYTHING I write.

Leave me alone Original Intent for I do not trust your intentions anymore when it comes to me. You seem to have a very personal issue with me but I will not take your "bullying" anymore. I discuss my views on topics and then you personally attack me directly. Leave me along and leave me out of your delusions of who I am and what I truly feel or intend. It seems that this hate always comes out when I disagree with you. So who is the one that has the issue? Have I attacked you personally or have I written my position on matters? I have not lowered myself to personal attacks. Yes I said that the devil was attacking me today, and yes I do feel your post was timed by him. So this is my first personal statement about you. I feel justified for you were in a full blown rage against me in that post and slandering my intentions and who I am as a person. I am not sure how much more personal of an attack one can give to another person. You paint me as the ultimate in Pride and arrogance and say it with such venom. I did not want to defend myself by saying what you posted was inspired by the devil but what amazing timing it was. Do not call me to repentance when you do not know my heart. When I post I post in generality. It is you that read more into what I am saying then what is actually said. You read personal attacks where none is said.

Leave me alone. Attack the message but not the messenger.

[truthseeker]

Here are some scriptures I believe are relevant to this discussion and the idea that the spirit may dictate to do different from what secular authority has commanded:

Exodus 1:17 But the midwives feared God, and did not as the king of Egypt commanded them, but saved the men children alive.

Exodus 1:20Therefore God dealt well with the midwives: and the people multiplied, and waxed very mighty.

Exodus 2:2 And the woman conceived, and bare a son: and when she saw him that he was a goodly child, she hid him three months.

Exodus 2:3 And when she could not longer hide him, she took for him an ark of bulrushes, and daubed it with slime and with pitch, and put the child therein; and she laid it in the flags by the river’s brink.

Daniel 1:8 But Daniel purposed in his heart that he would not defile himself with the portion of the king’s meat, nor with the wine which he drank: therefore he requested of the prince of the eunuchs that he might not defile himself.

Daniel 3:12 There are certain Jews whom thou hast set over the affairs of the province of Babylon, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego; these men, O king, have not regarded thee: they serve not thy gods, nor worship the golden image which thou hast set up.

Daniel 3:16 Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego, answered and said to the king, O Nebuchadnezzar, we are not careful to answer thee in this matter.

Daniel 3:17 If it be so, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace, and he will deliver us out of thine hand, O king.

Daniel 3:18 But if not, be it known unto thee, O king, that we will not serve thy gods, nor worship the golden image which thou hast set up.

Daniel 6:7 All the presidents of the kingdom, the governors, and the princes, the counsellors, and the captains, have consulted together to establish a royal statute, and to make a firm decree, that whosoever shall ask a petition of any God or man for thirty days, save of thee, O king, he shall be cast into the den of lions.

Daniel 6:8 Now, O king, establish the decree, and sign the writing, that it be not changed, according to the law of the Medes and Persians, which altereth not.

Daniel 6:9 Therefore king Darius signed the writing and the decree.

Daniel 6:10 Now when Daniel knew that the writing was signed, he went into his house; and his windows being open in his chamber toward Jerusalem, he kneeled upon his knees three times a day, and prayed, and gave thanks before his God, as he did aforetime.

Esther 3:1 After these things did king Ahasuerus promote Haman the son of Hammedatha the Agagite, and advanced him, and set his seat above all the princes that were with him.

Esther 3:2 And all the king’s servants, that were in the king’s gate, bowed, and reverenced Haman: for the king had so commanded concerning him. But Mordecai bowed not, nor did him reverence.

Esther 4:16 Go, gather together all the Jews that are present in Shushan, and fast ye for me, and neither eat nor drink three days, night or day: I also and my maidens will fast likewise; and so will I go in unto the king, which is not according to the law: and if I perish, I perish.

Mathew 2:7 Then Herod, when he had privily called the wise men, enquired of them diligently what time the star appeared.

Mathew 2:8 And he sent them to Bethlehem, and said, Go and search diligently for the young child; and when ye have found him, bring me word again, that I may come and worship him also.

Mathew 2:12 And being warned of God in a dream that they should not return to Herod, they departed into their own country another way.

Galations 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

1 Nephi 4:6And I was led by the Spirit, not knowing beforehand the things which I should do.

1 Nephi 4:18 Therefore I did obey the voice of the Spirit, and took Laban by the hair of the head, and I smote off his head with his own sword.

[lost ark]

As usual, I'm pretty late to the discussion, but I would like to jump in and offer up some food for thought.

It comes from 1 Kings 13. As far as I can tell, it is not theoretical; it is a historical, real series of events. I am not the most learned, and my understanding of this chapter may be flawed. I welcome your thoughts and insights.

We have an unnamed prophet. He prophesies of events in the near future and heals the hand of the wicked king, Jeroboam. Jeroboam then invites this prophet home for dinner, and the prophet declines (vv 8-9), "for so it was charged me by the word of the Lord." This prophet departs for his next destination.

The sons of an "old prophet" in Beth-el tell their father of the works of the unnamed prophet that day. The old prophet asks his sons which way the unnamed prophet went and goes to find him. The old prophet finds the unnamed one and invites him home for dinner. The unnamed prophet declines again (vv 16-17). The old prophet replies that he also is a prophet and that an angel of the Lord told him to get the unnamed prophet and bring him home for dinner.

So the unnamed prophet followed the old prophet. As they sit down for dinner, the word of the Lord comes to the old prophet. The old prophet then conveys the message that the unnamed prophet will be destroyed because of his disobedience.


So, is this a case where the unnamed prophet would have been better off to follow personal revelation rather than the very pointed and direct invitation of the old prophet?

[NoGreaterLove]

I am truly very sorry about the website.

As I tried to convey to you, dear Rosa, your insights into areas of your expertise are INVALUABLE and I eagerly sit at your feet as the student when you are expounding on those matters.

What is very frustrating is when you refuse to acknowlege that there are some areas that your word is not the final say or the essence of pure light and truth. And even though you are much more subtle in your "personal attacks" your insinuation that anyone who disagrees with you is not following the prophet is every bit as mean spirited, as demoralizing, as hurtful as anything I have said towards you.

I am sorry I had to get direct with you, however, your and NGL's behavior in this thread called for some direct speaking. I think it is you who likes to say the wicked takes the truth to be a hard thing spoken against them. Here is an opportunity for you to see that those words apply to you as well as those who you speak condescendingly to and using those words as an accusation and as a point in winning your argument.

I don;t care one whit about winning arguments, I care about the truth. There are numberous times when I have THANKED the person that I had disagreed with because they had convinced me of the error in my own conclusions - in fact you have been the RECIPIENT of said thanks several times.

Allow me to get a bit direct again - the thanks others get when they try to enlighten you on anything has been to be called apostate and against the prophet. Try to get outside of yourself for one minute to see how that appears. it appears that you are saying Rosabella's words = the prophets words = the undisputed and undisputable truth. To disagree with Rosa is to be on the road to apostasy. And I'm sorry to say it Rosa, but it boils down to a pride issue, a complete inability to acknowledge that someone (other than the prophet!) might actually have some glimmer or understanding of truth superior to your own.

Excuse my bluntness. I am only so blunt with my friends and those that I respect. It is my challenge to you to be better, but only because I already expect the best of you. There are those that would say don't take it so personally - I tell you it is meant personally, I mean for it to hurt - not for the pain;s sake but because as I AM SURE YOU ARE AWARE - growth is almost always accompanied by pain.

It takes more love to give someone what they need as opposed to what they want. What you WANT, as far as I can see, is a following that does nothing but nod at your indisputable wisdom and everyone marbeliing at your incredible insight and wisdom. And there are AREAS OF EXPERTISE where this is definitely due to you and all the good work you have done. However, what you need (at least as far as this imperfect individual can tell, I ask forgiveness of you and the Lord if my discernment is wrong in this matter) is for you to be told - plainly - teach in those areas that you are qualified to teach, and have the HUMILITY to learn from others in areas where you are weak.

You consider me your enemy, nothing could be further from the truth. I LOVE YOU. I LOVE NGL. I love everyone on this site that I have heard enough from to know them to any extent (even those I strongly disagree with on some issues, yes Bob, I love you too! and thank you, Bob, for forcing me to at least rethink a good many things!)

I do hope that you get your website fixed. Even though I did not post there much if at all, I did stop by regularly to see what new wonderful things you have posted.

Indeed the enemy is attacking us from all sides, and you have indicated that I have been a tool of the devil by "attacking" you. We are going to need to learn to stand together in order to survive what is coming. This includes dealing with people some of whom we may have some strong disagreements with. Are you ready for it?

First things first. Rosa, sorry your website crashed, try the cached ones and copy and paste.
OI
You have called me on the blanket several times for things. Sometimes I saw my error and apologized because you were correct. I thank you for those times and respect you for it. This is not one of those times. I am calling you on the blanket this time. No love lost here for you or anyone else for that matter (I have to correct that, it is not what I was trying to say)(I still love you as my brothers is what I was trying to portray), but my testimony remains firm in the things I have testified of and I will not budge one bit in this matter. You have heard my testimony. I stand firm and steadfast behind it. I truly believe this exact issue will be what finally separates the wheat from the tares. That is my belief, not doctrine. My hope is that you guys will come to a complete understanding of what sustaining the prophet means. I respect your right to disagree and follow the dictates of your own conscience, but I do not agree at all with you.

[Squally]

As usual, I'm pretty late to the discussion, but I would like to jump in and offer up some food for thought.

It comes from 1 Kings 13. As far as I can tell, it is not theoretical; it is a historical, real series of events. I am not the most learned, and my understanding of this chapter may be flawed. I welcome your thoughts and insights.

We have an unnamed prophet. He prophesies of events in the near future and heals the hand of the wicked king, Jeroboam. Jeroboam then invites this prophet home for dinner, and the prophet declines (vv 8-9), "for so it was charged me by the word of the Lord." This prophet departs for his next destination.

The sons of an "old prophet" in Beth-el tell their father of the works of the unnamed prophet that day. The old prophet asks his sons which way the unnamed prophet went and goes to find him. The old prophet finds the unnamed one and invites him home for dinner. The unnamed prophet declines again (vv 16-17). The old prophet replies that he also is a prophet and that an angel of the Lord told him to get the unnamed prophet and bring him home for dinner.

So the unnamed prophet followed the old prophet. As they sit down for dinner, the word of the Lord comes to the old prophet. The old prophet then conveys the message that the unnamed prophet will be destroyed because of his disobedience.


So, is this a case where the unnamed prophet would have been better off to follow personal revelation rather than the very pointed and direct invitation of the old prophet?

This is a case of trusting in the arm of flesh over direct revelation.

[buffalo_girl]

Thank you for the scripture references, Truthseeker & Lost Ark.

Ultimately, each one of us must make decisions which impact our Eternal Salvation. Each one of us will die individually and be judged individually. Each one of us will be rewarded individually for the work we did in mortality.

I don't think there are too many here who willfully rebel against God's Law, but even so...I cannot be the judge of who that is or what constitutes a state of sin in another.

[NoGreaterLove]

"Our greatest safety lies in strictly following the word of the Lord given through His prophets, particularly the current President of the Church. The Lord warns that those who ignore the words of the living prophets will fall (see D&C 1:14-16). He promises great blessings to those who follow the President of the Church:

“Thou shalt give heed unto all his words and commandments which he shall give unto you as he receiveth them, walking in all holiness before me; http://lds.org/study/topics/prophets?lang=eng

D&C 1

14And the arm of the Lord shall be revealed; and the day cometh that they who will not hear the voice of the Lord, neither the voice of his servants, neither give heed to the words of the prophets and apostles, shall be cut off from among the people;

15For they have strayed from mine ordinances, and have broken mine everlasting covenant;

16They seek not the Lord to establish his righteousness, but every man walketh in his own way, and after the image of his own god, whose image is in the likeness of the world, and whose substance is that of an idol, which waxeth fold and shall perish in Babylon, even Babylon the great, which shall fall.

[buffalo_girl]

Ultimately, each one of us must make decisions which impact our Eternal Salvation. Each one of us will die individually and be judged individually. Each one of us will be rewarded individually for the work we did in mortality.

I don't think there are too many here who willfully rebel against God's Law, but even so...I cannot be the judge of who that is or what constitutes a state of sin in another.

[Original_Intent]

"Our greatest safety lies in strictly following the word of the Lord given through His prophets, particularly the current President of the Church. The Lord warns that those who ignore the words of the living prophets will fall (see D&C 1:14-16). He promises great blessings to those who follow the President of the Church:

“Thou shalt give heed unto all his words and commandments which he shall give unto you as he receiveth them, walking in all holiness before me; http://lds.org/study/topics/prophets?lang=eng

D&C 1

14And the arm of the Lord shall be revealed; and the day cometh that they who will not hear the voice of the Lord, neither the voice of his servants, neither give heed to the words of the prophets and apostles, shall be cut off from among the people;

15For they have strayed from mine ordinances, and have broken mine everlasting covenant;

16They seek not the Lord to establish his righteousness, but every man walketh in his own way, and after the image of his own god, whose image is in the likeness of the world, and whose substance is that of an idol, which waxeth fold and shall perish in Babylon, even Babylon the great, which shall fall.

This is not a discussion about following the prophet or not following the prophet; you and bella raised that argument by claiming that anyone that disagreed with you and Bella's interpretation of the prophets words were listening to lying spirits and not following the prophet.

if you are saying that the willingness to follow the pophet or not follow the prophet is the basis on which the wheat and the tares will be sifted - I agree with you. If you are saying that our willingness to submit to secular authority is what will be the difference - and you base THAT on YOUR INTERPRETATION of what the prophets have said - there may be some truth to that as well, but I will be so bold as to suggest that those who take the position that you have will be on the wrong side of that sifting. And if you are testifying regarding your interpretation of the law of the land, then I must with no enmity towards you declare that to be false testimony. It has been demonstrated numerous times throughout this thread, but as I stated previously, you are being willfully ignorant by dismissing anything that does not match your own conclusions.

[Rosabella]

Crucify me, Martyr me, mock me, call me every name in the book, but I will never agree to the idea that we are only to follow the Prophet up until we disagree with him via our personal revelations. This is the path to apostasy. If one finds oneself in conflict between their revelation and the Prophets they should take it up with those that have keys of authority over them.


If some one disagrees, they should stay civil and respectful and not lower themselves to attacking the messenger and not the message. No one will change my mind on this topic of following the Prophets of God because I have been told to do just that by the Lord's true Prophets.