Submission to secular authority.

[LittleLion]

So many here believe we should have no conscience, no thought processes, no right or wrong in our hearts to follow. Just follow the prophet. Be a robot, never listen to the HG no matter what because its just satan if it is not lockstep with whatever our leaders tell us.

Lets look at this from the other perspective. What if the law said you could steal, murder, lie, would you do it? Why? Because you know its wrong? Hmmm What tells you its wrong? Does your heart? Your conscience? Oh no? The leaders tell us we MUST obey the law! Which court of justice are you afraid of? Mans? Or Christs? In fact, their many laws around the world that allow many things that the Lords commandments do NOT allow right now! Does wisdom guide your actions? But the law says I can steal without recourse! The law says I can take advantage of people that are ignorant of the rules and laws of the land. So don't punish me Lord because man says I can do these things and our leaders say follow the law like a blind man!

Right now respected people in the world with education, with money, high in church positions all over the world including ours, in government, in buisness and all walks of life are leading the people astray because they are preaching obey obey obey and people are following without any critical thought process at all.

We have a spirit that comes complete with a conscience, we have the HG, we have the scriptures, we have prayer and fasting, we have leaders in our church, we have our spouses, family and friends, we have each other. Use all the tools God gave us including and especially our faculties to discern which course we should follow at any given time in our lives.

[Jason]

Salvation is an individual operation. I am the only person that can possibly save myself. When salvation is sent to me, I can reject or receive it. In receiving it, I yield implicit obedience and submission to its great Author throughout my life, and to those whom He shall appoint to instruct me; in rejecting it, I follow the dictates of my own will in preference to the will of my Creator. There are those among this people who are influenced, controlled, and biased in their thoughts, actions, and feelings by some other individual or family, on whom they place their dependence for spiritual and temporal instruction, and for salvation in the end. These persons do not depend upon themselves for salvation, but upon another of their poor, weak, fellow mortals. "I do not depend upon any inherent goodness of my own," say they, "to introduce me into the kingdom of glory, but I depend upon you, brother Joseph, upon you, brother Brigham, upon you, brother Heber, or upon you, brother James; I believe your judgment is superior to mine, and consequently I let you judge for me; your spirit is better than mine, therefore you can do good for me; I will submit myself wholly to you, and place in you all my confidence for life and salvation; where you go I will go, and where you tarry there I will stay; expecting that you will introduce me through the gates into the heavenly Jerusalem."

I wish to notice this. We read in the Bible, that there is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moons and another glory of the stars. In the Book of Doctrine and Covenants, these glories are called telestial, terrestrial, and celestial, which is the highest. These are worlds, different departments, or mansions, in our Father’s house. Now those men, or those women, who know no more about the power of God, and the influences of the Holy Spirit, than to be led entirely by another person, suspending their own understanding, and pinning their faith upon another’s sleeve, will never be capable of entering into the, celestial glory, to be crowned as they anticipate; they will never be capable of becoming Gods. They cannot rule themselves, to say nothing of ruling others, but they must be dictated to in every trifle, like a child. They cannot control themselves in the least, but James, Peter, or somebody else must control them, They never can become Gods, nor be crowned as rulers with glory, immortality, and eternal lives. They never can hold sceptres of glory, majesty, and power in the celestial kingdom. Who will? Those who are valiant and inspired with the true independence of heaven, who will go forth boldly in the service of their God, leaving others to do as they please, determined to do right, though all mankind besides should take the opposite course. Will this apply to any of you? Your own hearts can answer. Do you know what is right and just, as well as I do? In some things you do, and in some things you may not. know as well; but I will explain what I mean, in the following words ”I will do all the good I can, and all I know how to do, and I will shun every evil that I know to be an evil. You can all do that much. I will. apply my heart to wisdom, and ask the Lord to impart it to me; and if I know but little, I will improve upon it, that to-morrow. I may have more, and thus grow from day to day, in the knowledge of the truth, as Jesus Christ grew in stature and knowledge from a babe to manhood; and if I am not now capable of judging for myself, perhaps I shall be in another year. We are organized to progress in the scale of intelligence, and the least Saint by adhering strictly to the order of God, may attain to a full and complete salvation through the grace of God, by his own faithfulness.

- Uncle Brigham

Joseph Smith said “…and if the people departed from the Lord, they must fall–that they were depending on the Prophet, hence were darkened in their minds, in consequence of neglecting the duties devolving upon themselves..” I would interpret this to mean that their minds were darkened because they weren’t receiving guidance from God, who gives light and truth, but were simply following Joseph. I just don’t see how we can be agents and followers at the same time.

Here's an example of change from the top -

Bruce R. McConkie published in 1958: “Though he was a rebel and an associate of Lucifer in pre-existence, and though he was a liar from the beginning whose name was Perdition, Cain managed to attain the privilege of mortal birth… he came out in open rebellion, fought God, worshipped Lucifer, and slew Abel… As a result of his rebellion, Cain was cursed with a dark skin; he became the father of the Negroes, and those spirits who were not worthy to receive the priesthood are born through his lineage.” (Mormon Doctrine, 1958, pg. 102)

Bruce R. Mckonkie stated after the blacks received the priesthood in 1978: “There are statements in our literature by early brethren which we have interpreted to mean that the Negroes would not receive the priesthood in mortality. I have said the same things…All I can say to that is that it is time disbelieving people repented and got in line and believed in a living, modern prophet. Forget everything that I have said, or what President Brigham Young or President Goerge Q. Cannon or whomsoever has said in days past that is contrary to the present revelation. We spoke with limited understanding and without the light and knowledge that now has come into the world…..”

Here is an apostle saying that at least one prophet and some apostles have spoken in the past with limited understanding and not a fullness of light and knowledge on a very important matter, the salvation of an entire race of people.

Matthew 22:37-40 talks about the two great commandments which are loving God and loving our neighbor as ourselves. It says that all the law and the prophets hang on these two great commandments. I truly believe there are times, and it may be different for everyone, that following certain laws or council leads us to be less loving to our neighbors. In this case wouldn’t we be keeping a lesser law, while breaking one of greatest commandments?

Here's a current situation that many say is similar -

How Should Mormons Respond to Leader's Anti-Gay Comments?
http://www.religiondispatches.org/dispa ... _comments/

I personally don't feel this is the case....but it goes back to President Brigham Young's comments about salvation being an individual operation. We are accountable for our decisions....and no one else's. One can blindly follow....but your progression will be limited. Best to do everything within our power to be in tune with the Holy Spirit and know of ourselves whether things are right or wrong.....and the corresponding actions or lack of action that we take. Now if by chance we find ourselves at odds with the counsel being given by those appointed....then imo its time to really ponder, fast, and pray.....but we may by chance at the end of that process....still stick to that path. Heavenly Father knows where each of us stands....and what we've been given and counseled to do....and can judge accordingly.

In my Stake Conference a lady spoke and told a story that while on her mission she was visited by a General Authority who after the meeting approached her and told her to go home.....that her mission was completed and honorably served.....that she was to get back with her boyfriend and get married. Well this upset the lady and she prayed like crazy and got the prompting that she needed to stay on her mission. She eventually brought it up with the mission president and he supported her in that decision. She served the rest of her mission and then went home and married that boyfriend (now husband).

You have to be able to stand on your own two feet....and not reliant on the testimony or counsel of others. Ask and ye shall receive...knock and it shall be opened unto you!

[Rosabella]

I just happen to think that Christ would much rather have a living thinking believer that can use the intellect he gave us instead of a living nonthinking always having to be directed in everything follower. Thats all I'm saying. If people want to think that if you try and think at all then you are not following the prophet so be it. ***shrugs***

Yes be careful always, always consult heavenly father in prayer, fast and pray. Always consider all things that have come from Christ but for heavens sake don't stop using ALL the gifts that God has given you because your stuck on only ONE of the gifts. It just makes no sense to my feeble mind.

No one is saying not to think. It takes a lot of thinking, pondering and praying to gain an understanding of why the word's of the prophet are true. The pattern I am suggesting is to obey the prophet by default, but also apply all diligence of mind and faith to understanding why his words should be followed. This pattern will not produce blind followers, but followers who know and comprehend the will of God.

Using our agency to choose God’s will, and not slackening even when the going gets hard, will not make us God’s puppet; it will make us like Him.

Instead of thinking "I will only obey the words of the prophet whose rationale I understand and agree with", we should rather say, "I will obey the words of the prophet and seek actively to understand and agree with their rationale." This does not make us blind followers; it makes us disciples.

President Ezra Taft Benson declared that “our [very] salvation hangs on” following the prophet. He described what he called “Fourteen Fundamentals in Following the Prophet.” In the session this morning, Elder Claudio Costa of the Presidency of the Seventy so eloquently instructed us on these 14 fundamentals. Because they are of such great importance to our very salvation, I will repeat them again.

“First: The prophet is the only man who speaks for the Lord in everything.

“Second: The living prophet is more vital to us than the standard works.

“Third: The living prophet is more important to us than a dead prophet.

“Fourth: The prophet will never lead the Church astray.

“Fifth: The prophet is not required to have any particular earthly training or credentials to speak on any subject or act on any matter at any time.

“Sixth: The prophet does not have to say ‘Thus saith the Lord’ to give us scripture.

“Seventh: The prophet tells us what we need to know, not always what we want to know.

“Eighth: The prophet is not limited by men’s reasoning.

“Ninth: The prophet can receive revelation on any matter, temporal or spiritual.

“Tenth: The prophet may be involved in civic matters.

“Eleventh: The two groups who have the greatest difficulty in following the prophet are the proud who are learned and the proud who are rich.

“Twelfth: The prophet will not necessarily be popular with the world or the worldly.

“Thirteenth: The prophet and his counselors make up the First Presidency—the highest quorum in the Church.

“Fourteenth: [Follow] … the living prophet and the First Presidency … and be blessed; reject them and suffer.”8
Brothers and sisters, like the Saints of 1848, we can choose to follow the prophet, or we can look to the arm of flesh. May we have the wisdom to trust in and follow the counsel of the living prophets and apostles.

It's utterly silly to make up theoretical and fictitious laws in order to argue "what if" when such do not exist and if they did the prophet would surely give direction (such as ordering the exodus of saints from that country). Since we are playing the "what if" game, if the US government passed a law forbidding all public church meetings, then we could still keep the Lord's commandments with the prophet's direction by meeting in our homes, even if it was only our own family. If the Government closed all of our temples, the Lord through His prophet could very well command that ordinances be conducted in private consecrated homes, if that was His will. Such directions would come down through the appointed line of authority. Those members who chose to disobey the law by trying to forcibly enter a closed chapel or temple would be violating not only the secular law, but also the Prophet's counsel and would in effect be disobeying the Prophet and the Lord. Only if the Prophet said "go ahead and sneak into the temple" would it be approved by God and I am sure if the Lord commanded that, then he would also protect the saints in doing so.

The whole reason to have a prophet is so that the Lord can command the whole church on any matter in which the commandment is the same for everyone. The reason for personal revelation through the Holy Ghost is to confirm the truthfulness of the prophet's words and to give us direction in matters that concern only us or our immediate families, but such counsel will never violate directions given to the whole church. The Holy Ghost will never instruct an individual to do something or believe something that runs counter to the directions He has given the Prophet. Examples like those of Nephi killing Laban rest upon two major facts 1.) Nephi was in fact a Prophet 2.) Nephi did not want to violate the commandment not to kill, and the Lord had to persuade him to do it.

If personal revelation trumps the prophet's words, then there is absolutely no reason to have a prophet, since everyone would get all the revelation they need personally.

Lets look at this from the other perspective. What if the law said you could steal, murder, lie, would you do it? Why? Because you know its wrong? Hmmm What tells you its wrong? Does your heart? Your conscience? Oh no? The leaders tell us we MUST obey the law! Which court of justice are you afraid of? Mans? Or Christs? In fact, their many laws around the world that allow many things that the Lords commandments do NOT allow right now! Does wisdom guide your actions? But the law says I can steal without recourse! The law says I can take advantage of people that are ignorant of the rules and laws of the land. So don't punish me Lord because man says I can do these things and our leaders say follow the law like a blind man!

There is a huge difference between laws that ALLOW a sinful act, and laws which COMMAND sinful acts. US laws do not command people to gamble or engage in prostitution (either as a prostitute or as a client), but the laws of Nevada allow both. That does not obligate members of the church in Nevada to gamble, visit prostitutes or work as prostitutes, precisely because refusing to do these things does not break the law. If the law did command everyone to spend an hour a week gambling or going to a brothel, then I am sure the Prophet would tell us to disobey that law. The prophet has even given allowance for members to work as employees in casinos. It is the Lord who decides what to allow and what not to allow and he makes is clear through his Prophet.

Remember that Christ himself paid taxes and directed his disciples to do so as well, even if the laws of Rome were corrupt and evil. He never broke any secular law, but even submitted Himself to the proceedings of the corrupt Roman justice system, culminating in His death.

[Squally]

Perhaps the Law of Moses beats personal revelation and the higher law afterall. {Sarc}

Living with the children of Moses where everything could be spelled out by a prophet in black and white down to the most minute detail would have been so wonderful; we could just memorize like a pharisee and then live a "perfect" existence void of all personal revelation, and perhaps even deny the Christ--afterall recognizing Christ takes more than following the letter!!!

[Rosabella]

Salvation is an individual operation. I am the only person that can possibly save myself. When salvation is sent to me, I can reject or receive it. In receiving it, I yield implicit obedience and submission to its great Author throughout my life, and to those whom He shall appoint to instruct me; in rejecting it, I follow the dictates of my own will in preference to the will of my Creator. There are those among this people who are influenced, controlled, and biased in their thoughts, actions, and feelings by some other individual or family, on whom they place their dependence for spiritual and temporal instruction, and for salvation in the end. These persons do not depend upon themselves for salvation, but upon another of their poor, weak, fellow mortals. "I do not depend upon any inherent goodness of my own," say they, "to introduce me into the kingdom of glory, but I depend upon you, brother Joseph, upon you, brother Brigham, upon you, brother Heber, or upon you, brother James; I believe your judgment is superior to mine, and consequently I let you judge for me; your spirit is better than mine, therefore you can do good for me; I will submit myself wholly to you, and place in you all my confidence for life and salvation; where you go I will go, and where you tarry there I will stay; expecting that you will introduce me through the gates into the heavenly Jerusalem."

I wish to notice this. We read in the Bible, that there is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moons and another glory of the stars. In the Book of Doctrine and Covenants, these glories are called telestial, terrestrial, and celestial, which is the highest. These are worlds, different departments, or mansions, in our Father’s house. Now those men, or those women, who know no more about the power of God, and the influences of the Holy Spirit, than to be led entirely by another person, suspending their own understanding, and pinning their faith upon another’s sleeve, will never be capable of entering into the, celestial glory, to be crowned as they anticipate; they will never be capable of becoming Gods. They cannot rule themselves, to say nothing of ruling others, but they must be dictated to in every trifle, like a child. They cannot control themselves in the least, but James, Peter, or somebody else must control them, They never can become Gods, nor be crowned as rulers with glory, immortality, and eternal lives. They never can hold sceptres of glory, majesty, and power in the celestial kingdom. Who will? Those who are valiant and inspired with the true independence of heaven, who will go forth boldly in the service of their God, leaving others to do as they please, determined to do right, though all mankind besides should take the opposite course. Will this apply to any of you? Your own hearts can answer. Do you know what is right and just, as well as I do? In some things you do, and in some things you may not. know as well; but I will explain what I mean, in the following words ”I will do all the good I can, and all I know how to do, and I will shun every evil that I know to be an evil. You can all do that much. I will. apply my heart to wisdom, and ask the Lord to impart it to me; and if I know but little, I will improve upon it, that to-morrow. I may have more, and thus grow from day to day, in the knowledge of the truth, as Jesus Christ grew in stature and knowledge from a babe to manhood; and if I am not now capable of judging for myself, perhaps I shall be in another year. We are organized to progress in the scale of intelligence, and the least Saint by adhering strictly to the order of God, may attain to a full and complete salvation through the grace of God, by his own faithfulness.

- Uncle Brigham

Joseph Smith said “…and if the people departed from the Lord, they must fall–that they were depending on the Prophet, hence were darkened in their minds, in consequence of neglecting the duties devolving upon themselves..” I would interpret this to mean that their minds were darkened because they weren’t receiving guidance from God, who gives light and truth, but were simply following Joseph. I just don’t see how we can be agents and followers at the same time.

Here's an example of change from the top -

Bruce R. McConkie published in 1958: “Though he was a rebel and an associate of Lucifer in pre-existence, and though he was a liar from the beginning whose name was Perdition, Cain managed to attain the privilege of mortal birth… he came out in open rebellion, fought God, worshipped Lucifer, and slew Abel… As a result of his rebellion, Cain was cursed with a dark skin; he became the father of the Negroes, and those spirits who were not worthy to receive the priesthood are born through his lineage.” (Mormon Doctrine, 1958, pg. 102)

Bruce R. Mckonkie stated after the blacks received the priesthood in 1978: “There are statements in our literature by early brethren which we have interpreted to mean that the Negroes would not receive the priesthood in mortality. I have said the same things…All I can say to that is that it is time disbelieving people repented and got in line and believed in a living, modern prophet. Forget everything that I have said, or what President Brigham Young or President Goerge Q. Cannon or whomsoever has said in days past that is contrary to the present revelation. We spoke with limited understanding and without the light and knowledge that now has come into the world…..”

Here is an apostle saying that at least one prophet and some apostles have spoken in the past with limited understanding and not a fullness of light and knowledge on a very important matter, the salvation of an entire race of people.

Matthew 22:37-40 talks about the two great commandments which are loving God and loving our neighbor as ourselves. It says that all the law and the prophets hang on these two great commandments. I truly believe there are times, and it may be different for everyone, that following certain laws or council leads us to be less loving to our neighbors. In this case wouldn’t we be keeping a lesser law, while breaking one of greatest commandments?

Here's a current situation that many say is similar -

How Should Mormons Respond to Leader's Anti-Gay Comments?
http://www.religiondispatches.org/dispa ... _comments/

I personally don't feel this is the case....but it goes back to President Brigham Young's comments about salvation being an individual operation. We are accountable for our decisions....and no one else's. One can blindly follow....but your progression will be limited. Best to do everything within our power to be in tune with the Holy Spirit and know of ourselves whether things are right or wrong.....and the corresponding actions or lack of action that we take. Now if by chance we find ourselves at odds with the counsel being given by those appointed....then imo its time to really ponder, fast, and pray.....but we may by chance at the end of that process....still stick to that path. Heavenly Father knows where each of us stands....and what we've been given and counseled to do....and can judge accordingly.

In my Stake Conference a lady spoke and told a story that while on her mission she was visited by a General Authority who after the meeting approached her and told her to go home.....that her mission was completed and honorably served.....that she was to get back with her boyfriend and get married. Well this upset the lady and she prayed like crazy and got the prompting that she needed to stay on her mission. She eventually brought it up with the mission president and he supported her in that decision. She served the rest of her mission and then went home and married that boyfriend (now husband).

You have to be able to stand on your own two feet....and not reliant on the testimony or counsel of others. Ask and ye shall receive...knock and it shall be opened unto you!

From this post and others like it, I can walk away feeling that I do not need the LDS Church or its Prophets. They are of no real use and I do not need them for I can have all the wisdom and knowledge given to me without them. So why stay active in the Church. Why go to the temple. Why do anything the Church has said at all that I don't feel applies to me. I might as well go back to being a general Christian where I could pick and choose whatever I "felt" to be true. I do not need any authority over me telling me what to do. Thank you for the choice quotes for they freed me from the bondage of the LDS faith. I can live on personal revelation alone. It is more accurate since it comes from inside me and feels better to me that what might stretch me that Prophet says. What a freeing perspective. For me to truly ever become a God in the highest Glory of the Celestial Kingdom I must not follow a Prophet, I must follow my own promptings regardless if they are inline or not with the Gospel or the Prophets. I actually knew all the doctrines of God before I was LDS and that is why I joined it, but I now see that I really did not need the Church or its Prophets. I was fine on my own. I was silly to think the Lord had a restored Church. That information came from just a Prophet of the LDS Church who is just a man anyway. So I will go back to my own personal religion where I pray to God but have no Church for I do not need one to be worthy of the Highest degree of Glory. Following a Prophet will only hold me back and I will be stuck in the Terrestrial Kingdom. I can feel good about breaking any laws that I feel are not in my best interest whether they be laws of the country or the Laws of a Church. True Liberty and Freedom! I will change my site's name to My Will Not Thy Be Done for My will is really God's will anyway.....

[Squally]

Now those men, or those women, who know no more about the power of God, and the influences of the Holy Spirit, than to be led entirely by another person, suspending their own understanding, and pinning their faith upon another’s sleeve, will never be capable of entering into the, celestial glory, to be crowned as they anticipate; they will never be capable of becoming Gods. They cannot rule themselves, to say nothing of ruling others, but they must be dictated to in every trifle, like a child. They cannot control themselves in the least, but James, Peter, or somebody else must control them, They never can become Gods, nor be crowned as rulers with glory, immortality, and eternal lives. They never can hold sceptres of glory, majesty, and power in the celestial kingdom. Who will? Those who are valiant and inspired with the true independence of heaven, who will go forth boldly in the service of their God, leaving others to do as they please, determined to do right, though all mankind besides should take the opposite course. Brigham Young

Thanks for this wonderful quote Mummy. Ministering Servants (Angels)...

[Rosabella]

Just pondering this new paradigm I have come to thanks to the posters on this thread. If the Modern LDS Prophets are just good man whose counsel I can just take or leave depending on how I feel about it, then so are all the Apostles and Prophets who wrote the Book of Mormon and Old and New Testaments. I guess that means that even the Gospel of Jesus Christ could turn out to be no more than just good men's theories, no more reliable then my own and I trust myself more than other people anyway. In seeing this new found truth. I can now see that the only truth that could really exist is a truth that flows through all the world religions. One that is universal and without mans judgments, fears and hatred. That universal thread of truth is currently being taught and popularized by good men and women that seek Love and tolerance for all humanity and all lifestyles and all the creations upon this earth. We are all just one anyway. We all come from the same source. Therefore there must not be a good and evil for all is God and all is the creation of God. God would not create evil therefore evil does not exist. God is just the force of creation in the universe. In knowing this I now know that within myself I hold all the keys to Godhood. I am God , I am my own Salvation and there is no need for a Savior or any useless sacrifice to redeem my already Divine Soul.

[Squally]

The prophet leads the church and the members. Nobody can do that except the Prophet, as that is his stewardship and he hold the keys. We should follow the Lords prophet and apostles. We must also be worthy and able to recieve personal revelation and follow. Both together will lead us back to the Father. BOTH. Not one or the other, Both.

We all should be seeking the Lord in this life through his prophets words and the Holy Ghost..

[Rosabella]

The prophet leads the church and the members. Nobody can do that except the Prophet, as that is his stewardship and he hold the keys. We should follow the Lords prophet and apostles. We must also be worthy and able to recieve personal revelation and follow. Both together will lead us back to the Father. BOTH. Not one or the other, Both.

We all should be seeking the Lord in this life through his prophets words and the Holy Ghost..

But I keep hearing that personal revelation trumps the prophet. Therefore my new paradigm that I was prompted to must be the truth. Personal Revelation first Prophets second. That is what I have gathered from this thread. And since I can get all the revelation myself I really do not need a prophet at all.

[Squally]

The prophet leads the church and the members. Nobody can do that except the Prophet, as that is his stewardship and he hold the keys. We should follow the Lords prophet and apostles. We must also be worthy and able to recieve personal revelation and follow. Both together will lead us back to the Father. BOTH. Not one or the other, Both.

We all should be seeking the Lord in this life through his prophets words and the Holy Ghost..

But I keep hearing that personal revelation trumps the prophet. Therefore my new paradigm that I was prompted to must be the truth.

The Lord cannot trump himself, the Lord directs both... If there is ever true conflict, then this is where problem lies. But I would state there is no true conflict, usually it is just a lack of comprehension or understanding. The Lords ways are not our ways, thus we may not always understand perfectly all things. We along with the Lords prophets are not infallible and are prone to the frailties of this existence and can make mistakes. But since the prophet gives general directions to all the members as a whole, personal revelation fills in the rest. We cannot expect the prophet to direct our lives in minutia, but we can expect the Holy Ghost to be our constant companion. The prophets lay out the groundrules and lead the way, the Holy Ghost is our constant companion and personal guide. If we are ever directed to do something that has not directly been spelled out by the prophet, then personal revelation is what we seek. It isn't all black and white in perfection, we must counsel with the Lord in all things. We must be seeking to become like our Father. This requires that the prophet doesn't tell us every little thing to do. We also must seek the Lords counsels directly and realize that he will ask us to do things that we don't always understand or expect. And even sometimes, we will be left to figure things out for ourselves i.e not commanded in all things. Wish it was just perfectly black and white with no chance for deception or misunderstanding, but this life is a probation of faith which requires us to be tested and progress from little children to becoming prepared to be exalted beings. Thus the need for prophets and personal revelation. We can recieve all the Father has. But this requires us to learn for ourselves how to become one with the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost. We must seek the Savior and sanctification with an eye single to the glory of God.

[Avid Disciple]

I agree with Rosabella in that, while I know she does not really believe the absurd conclusions she explicated, they are in fact the only logical conclusions to the idea that continues to be promoted on this site, that Personal revelation is higher than the word of the Prophet. I myself wrestled with this issue many years ago, while considering whether or not to embrace Mormonism. The question was very simple, if I can receive revelation for myself that would be more binding upon me than the words of any other person, though he be a prophet, then why even have one? Why even have an organized church at all, if all that is required is to pray and receive personal revelation? You might argue that having the gift of the Holy Ghost requires the priesthood, but that is only if you believe the words of prophets such as Joseph Smith, Moses or the New Testament Apostles, who asserted that priesthood is necessary. But if my revelation tells me that I am saved just because I believe in Jesus, then who needs priesthood, baptism or any other ordinance. In fact, who needs commandments at all, since I can be told directly what God wants me to do.

The correct order of priority is first the words of the current prophet, followed by those of all previous prophets including the scriptures, and lastly my own revelation. In this way I do not make the error of thinking that I can reinterpret scripture that the Prophet has already interpreted. I know people who have done just that, decided that the scriptures mean something different that what the LDS prophets including Joseph Smith have taught us and are now embracing the principles of the New Occult, including the notion that Evil and Good are only illusions, and that God is a universal force and consciousness that is in everyone and everything, down to the most minute electron. These people have decided that Mormonism was only a stepping stone to this new higher truth that they have discovered through personal revelation and since their personal revelations are more important that the words of any prophet, they are now on a higher spiritual plane than the church and its leaders. Needless to say these individuals have left the church. They became so enamored of the idea that they were prophets unto themselves that they threw away the compass that God has given us.

Those who continue to claim loyalty to the organized church and its prophet, while claiming exception to his words based on so-called personal revelation are trying to live in two opposite camps. They rebel against following authority out of willfullness, yet claim hypocritically to embrace the restored church in order that they might still be well thought of by their LDS friends and family. They also enjoy, I believe, the feeling of being above any law that they get from wandering the no-man's land between the gospel and complete spiritual independence. They feel a false sense of superiority to those who adhere to the prophet's counsel, mocking them as "blind followers", unaware they they themselves are now standing on the first floor of the Great and Spacious Building.

[AussieOi]

The prophet leads the church and the members. Nobody can do that except the Prophet, as that is his stewardship and he hold the keys. We should follow the Lords prophet and apostles. We must also be worthy and able to recieve personal revelation and follow. Both together will lead us back to the Father. BOTH. Not one or the other, Both.

We all should be seeking the Lord in this life through his prophets words and the Holy Ghost..

But I keep hearing that personal revelation trumps the prophet. Therefore my new paradigm that I was prompted to must be the truth. Personal Revelation first Prophets second. That is what I have gathered from this thread. And since I can get all the revelation myself I really do not need a prophet at all.

I don't think people are talking about small things. I believe what people are saying is that the Lord_can_talk to us, and we need to be open to personal revelation.

Case in point

Moses: Thou Shalt Not Kill
Jeremiah- prophet of the day circa Nephi/ Laban (?)

Nephi
10And it came to pass that I was aconstrained by the Spirit that I should kill Laban; but I said in my heart: Never at any time have I shed the blood of man. And I shrunk and would that I might not slay him.

11And the Spirit said unto me again: Behold the aLord hath bdelivered him into thy hands. Yea, and I also knew that he had sought to take away mine own life; yea, and he would not hearken unto the commandments of the Lord; and he also had ctaken away our property.

12And it came to pass that the Spirit said unto me again: Slay him, for the Lord hath delivered him into thy hands;

13Behold the Lord aslayeth the bwicked to bring forth his righteous purposes. It is cbetter that one man should perish than that a nation should dwindle and perish in dunbelief.

14And now, when I, Nephi, had heard these words, I remembered the words of the Lord which he spake unto me in the wilderness, saying that: aInasmuch as thy seed shall keep my bcommandments, they shall cprosper in the dland of promise.

15Yea, and I also thought that they could not keep the commandments of the Lord according to the alaw of Moses, save they should have the law.

16And I also knew that the alaw was engraven upon the plates of brass.

17And again, I knew that the Lord had delivered Laban into my hands for this cause—that I might obtain the records according to his commandments.

18Therefore I did obey the voice of the Spirit, and took Laban by the hair of the head, and I smote off his head with his own asword.



So Bella, would Moses finger wah Nephi?
Would Jeremiah finger wag him?
Would the guy down the local synagogue finger wag him?

Exactly

I think maybe what is missing is- IF you are going to go_against_prophetic instruction, thinking you are following specific revelation...you better make sure you are 100% right.

[LittleLion]

The correct order of priority is first the words of the current prophet, followed by those of all previous prophets including the scriptures, and lastly my own revelation.

I agree with this in general. But again, the Prophet cannot be everywhere at once. I believe there are times when you must depend on the HG, your own spidy sense and your own intellect. Nobody has a direct line to the Prophet. Thats all I have ever said. All methods God uses are from the same source. Why are their different methods for disseminating Gods will? Because their are infinite circumstances that one or another method better lends itself to. If only one method were required there would only be one. It would be nice to have our own personal Prophet in our pocket but we don't. Thank goodness we do have other methods of hearing, feeling and being next to the spirit of God.

Those who continue to claim loyalty to the organized church and its prophet, while claiming exception to his words based on so-called personal revelation are trying to live in two opposite camps.

I don't remember anyone here claiming exception to the Prophet in this thread. The words of the Prophet can be the words of God as can all the other methods God uses to disseminate his will for his people. All I have ever said was that in certain circumstances one method is better suited than another.

They rebel against following authority out of willfullness, yet claim hypocritically to embrace the restored church in order that they might still be well thought of by their LDS friends and family. They also enjoy, I believe, the feeling of being above any law that they get from wandering the no-man's land between the gospel and complete spiritual independence. They feel a false sense of superiority to those who adhere to the prophet's counsel, mocking them as "blind followers", unaware they they themselves are now standing on the first floor of the Great and Spacious Building.

I know I can do better. Thank goodness there are people that know others so well through this feeble media. I guess I better start polishing the floors of this spacious building since I am just a janitor here.

I like what Squally and the rest have been saying. Thanks!

[LittleLion]

Just pondering this new paradigm I have come to thanks to the posters on this thread. If the Modern LDS Prophets are just good man whose counsel I can just take or leave depending on how I feel about it,

Who said this? Why does it always have to be the HG is my own will but the Prophet is Gods will? Who is saying this? Are we not intelligent people that try the best we can to follow the word of God in all its methods of dissemination? I know satan is crafty and much more intelligent than us all. Follow Christ, follow the prophet, follow your leaders, the scriptures and the Holy ghost. Use them all as God intended. Keep up the good work!

[NoGreaterLove]

some heretic that follows satans promptings while trying to spread false doctrine.

A heretic, absolutely not! Human, yes! Trying to spread false doctrine, no! Mislead at times, yes!
We are all mislead at times, we are all human. I have been down that road of not following the prophet on a matter before. Thought the Holy Ghost was telling myself and my wife to go contrary to the prophets counsel. Took the course of inspiration I had received and got burnt, royally. God taught me a lesson that I am still paying for and learning. Glad I am learning it now and stead of later when the hard stuff comes.
There are many on both sides of the issue I would stand on the front line with too. You included. But even if you were my captain leading the charge, if you told me to go against the prophets counsel, I would call you on it.

[Jason]

Salvation is an individual operation. I am the only person that can possibly save myself. When salvation is sent to me, I can reject or receive it. In receiving it, I yield implicit obedience and submission to its great Author throughout my life, and to those whom He shall appoint to instruct me; in rejecting it, I follow the dictates of my own will in preference to the will of my Creator. There are those among this people who are influenced, controlled, and biased in their thoughts, actions, and feelings by some other individual or family, on whom they place their dependence for spiritual and temporal instruction, and for salvation in the end. These persons do not depend upon themselves for salvation, but upon another of their poor, weak, fellow mortals. "I do not depend upon any inherent goodness of my own," say they, "to introduce me into the kingdom of glory, but I depend upon you, brother Joseph, upon you, brother Brigham, upon you, brother Heber, or upon you, brother James; I believe your judgment is superior to mine, and consequently I let you judge for me; your spirit is better than mine, therefore you can do good for me; I will submit myself wholly to you, and place in you all my confidence for life and salvation; where you go I will go, and where you tarry there I will stay; expecting that you will introduce me through the gates into the heavenly Jerusalem."

I wish to notice this. We read in the Bible, that there is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moons and another glory of the stars. In the Book of Doctrine and Covenants, these glories are called telestial, terrestrial, and celestial, which is the highest. These are worlds, different departments, or mansions, in our Father’s house. Now those men, or those women, who know no more about the power of God, and the influences of the Holy Spirit, than to be led entirely by another person, suspending their own understanding, and pinning their faith upon another’s sleeve, will never be capable of entering into the, celestial glory, to be crowned as they anticipate; they will never be capable of becoming Gods. They cannot rule themselves, to say nothing of ruling others, but they must be dictated to in every trifle, like a child. They cannot control themselves in the least, but James, Peter, or somebody else must control them, They never can become Gods, nor be crowned as rulers with glory, immortality, and eternal lives. They never can hold sceptres of glory, majesty, and power in the celestial kingdom. Who will? Those who are valiant and inspired with the true independence of heaven, who will go forth boldly in the service of their God, leaving others to do as they please, determined to do right, though all mankind besides should take the opposite course. Will this apply to any of you? Your own hearts can answer. Do you know what is right and just, as well as I do? In some things you do, and in some things you may not. know as well; but I will explain what I mean, in the following words ”I will do all the good I can, and all I know how to do, and I will shun every evil that I know to be an evil. You can all do that much. I will. apply my heart to wisdom, and ask the Lord to impart it to me; and if I know but little, I will improve upon it, that to-morrow. I may have more, and thus grow from day to day, in the knowledge of the truth, as Jesus Christ grew in stature and knowledge from a babe to manhood; and if I am not now capable of judging for myself, perhaps I shall be in another year. We are organized to progress in the scale of intelligence, and the least Saint by adhering strictly to the order of God, may attain to a full and complete salvation through the grace of God, by his own faithfulness.

- Uncle Brigham

Joseph Smith said “…and if the people departed from the Lord, they must fall–that they were depending on the Prophet, hence were darkened in their minds, in consequence of neglecting the duties devolving upon themselves..” I would interpret this to mean that their minds were darkened because they weren’t receiving guidance from God, who gives light and truth, but were simply following Joseph. I just don’t see how we can be agents and followers at the same time.

Here's an example of change from the top -

Bruce R. McConkie published in 1958: “Though he was a rebel and an associate of Lucifer in pre-existence, and though he was a liar from the beginning whose name was Perdition, Cain managed to attain the privilege of mortal birth… he came out in open rebellion, fought God, worshipped Lucifer, and slew Abel… As a result of his rebellion, Cain was cursed with a dark skin; he became the father of the Negroes, and those spirits who were not worthy to receive the priesthood are born through his lineage.” (Mormon Doctrine, 1958, pg. 102)

Bruce R. Mckonkie stated after the blacks received the priesthood in 1978: “There are statements in our literature by early brethren which we have interpreted to mean that the Negroes would not receive the priesthood in mortality. I have said the same things…All I can say to that is that it is time disbelieving people repented and got in line and believed in a living, modern prophet. Forget everything that I have said, or what President Brigham Young or President Goerge Q. Cannon or whomsoever has said in days past that is contrary to the present revelation. We spoke with limited understanding and without the light and knowledge that now has come into the world…..”

Here is an apostle saying that at least one prophet and some apostles have spoken in the past with limited understanding and not a fullness of light and knowledge on a very important matter, the salvation of an entire race of people.

Matthew 22:37-40 talks about the two great commandments which are loving God and loving our neighbor as ourselves. It says that all the law and the prophets hang on these two great commandments. I truly believe there are times, and it may be different for everyone, that following certain laws or council leads us to be less loving to our neighbors. In this case wouldn’t we be keeping a lesser law, while breaking one of greatest commandments?

Here's a current situation that many say is similar -

How Should Mormons Respond to Leader's Anti-Gay Comments?
http://www.religiondispatches.org/dispa ... _comments/

I personally don't feel this is the case....but it goes back to President Brigham Young's comments about salvation being an individual operation. We are accountable for our decisions....and no one else's. One can blindly follow....but your progression will be limited. Best to do everything within our power to be in tune with the Holy Spirit and know of ourselves whether things are right or wrong.....and the corresponding actions or lack of action that we take. Now if by chance we find ourselves at odds with the counsel being given by those appointed....then imo its time to really ponder, fast, and pray.....but we may by chance at the end of that process....still stick to that path. Heavenly Father knows where each of us stands....and what we've been given and counseled to do....and can judge accordingly.

In my Stake Conference a lady spoke and told a story that while on her mission she was visited by a General Authority who after the meeting approached her and told her to go home.....that her mission was completed and honorably served.....that she was to get back with her boyfriend and get married. Well this upset the lady and she prayed like crazy and got the prompting that she needed to stay on her mission. She eventually brought it up with the mission president and he supported her in that decision. She served the rest of her mission and then went home and married that boyfriend (now husband).

You have to be able to stand on your own two feet....and not reliant on the testimony or counsel of others. Ask and ye shall receive...knock and it shall be opened unto you!

From this post and others like it, I can walk away feeling that I do not need the LDS Church or its Prophets. They are of no real use and I do not need them for I can have all the wisdom and knowledge given to me without them. So why stay active in the Church. Why go to the temple. Why do anything the Church has said at all that I don't feel applies to me. I might as well go back to being a general Christian where I could pick and choose whatever I "felt" to be true. I do not need any authority over me telling me what to do. Thank you for the choice quotes for they freed me from the bondage of the LDS faith. I can live on personal revelation alone. It is more accurate since it comes from inside me and feels better to me that what might stretch me that Prophet says. What a freeing perspective. For me to truly ever become a God in the highest Glory of the Celestial Kingdom I must not follow a Prophet, I must follow my own promptings regardless if they are inline or not with the Gospel or the Prophets. I actually knew all the doctrines of God before I was LDS and that is why I joined it, but I now see that I really did not need the Church or its Prophets. I was fine on my own. I was silly to think the Lord had a restored Church. That information came from just a Prophet of the LDS Church who is just a man anyway. So I will go back to my own personal religion where I pray to God but have no Church for I do not need one to be worthy of the Highest degree of Glory. Following a Prophet will only hold me back and I will be stuck in the Terrestrial Kingdom. I can feel good about breaking any laws that I feel are not in my best interest whether they be laws of the country or the Laws of a Church. True Liberty and Freedom! I will change my site's name to My Will Not Thy Be Done for My will is really God's will anyway.....

You can walk away feeling whatever you want to.....but your take away is your own and not the point given. It seems you want to "battle" over opinions....

[NoGreaterLove]

"Follow the Prophet at all costs without thinking ever" mentality

You underestimate me. I will follow the prophets counsel even if I disagree with it, exercising the faith before I expect to receive the blessing. Why? Because when he speaks it is the same as God himself speaking. No way would I or you for that matter listen to God himself tell us to do something in person and then try to justify why we should not have to do it. We would follow his directive to the tee and if we had a problem with it, we would seek for clarification from Him.
Anyone who truly has a testimony that the prophet is called of God and speaks as if God himself is speaking, will NOT disobey that counsel. Would you??????????? Would you disobey God himself?

This is the underlying problem. A testimony of the prophet. Who he really is, what authority he has and who he speaks for. Taking this seriously is the problem. Most do not take this seriously.
If God come up to us and says I told you to not break the laws of the land, why did you do it? We can not say, you never told us that.
If we disagree with the prophets counsel, first obey, then seek for confirmation. If we receive confirmation contrary the counsel we did not receive it from the right source. It is black and white for God has spoken it at the last conference.

[Jason]

Just pondering this new paradigm I have come to thanks to the posters on this thread. If the Modern LDS Prophets are just good man whose counsel I can just take or leave depending on how I feel about it, then so are all the Apostles and Prophets who wrote the Book of Mormon and Old and New Testaments. I guess that means that even the Gospel of Jesus Christ could turn out to be no more than just good men's theories, no more reliable then my own and I trust myself more than other people anyway. In seeing this new found truth. I can now see that the only truth that could really exist is a truth that flows through all the world religions. One that is universal and without mans judgments, fears and hatred. That universal thread of truth is currently being taught and popularized by good men and women that seek Love and tolerance for all humanity and all lifestyles and all the creations upon this earth. We are all just one anyway. We all come from the same source. Therefore there must not be a good and evil for all is God and all is the creation of God. God would not create evil therefore evil does not exist. God is just the force of creation in the universe. In knowing this I now know that within myself I hold all the keys to Godhood. I am God , I am my own Salvation and there is no need for a Savior or any useless sacrifice to redeem my already Divine Soul.

You seem determined to twist the words into your paradigm.

The Spirit brings unity....if everyone is following the counsel of the Spirit then they will be unified. If they are not....in whatever capacity that may be.....it should be cause for intense soul searching along with fasting and prayer. If at the end of all that a person feels justified in taking a particular course of action....then the Lord who knows the dictations of the Spirit will be the judge. Everyone else has to figure it out for themselves.

You seem determined to twist that into follow the prophet or don't follow the prophet.....when the reality is each and every one of us must find our own testimony (by the Spirit) that the prophet is the prophet and the counsel is correct. In fact we are challenged to do so by the prophet. I'll never forget the overwhelming feeling of confirmation by the Spirit at President Monson's 1st conference as Prophet and being sustained as the Prophet....that he was indeed the Prophet of God. That feeling (knowledge) came from the Spirit....not from church headquarters via satellite broadcast!

[Jason]

The prophet leads the church and the members. Nobody can do that except the Prophet, as that is his stewardship and he hold the keys. We should follow the Lords prophet and apostles. We must also be worthy and able to recieve personal revelation and follow. Both together will lead us back to the Father. BOTH. Not one or the other, Both.

We all should be seeking the Lord in this life through his prophets words and the Holy Ghost..

But I keep hearing that personal revelation trumps the prophet. Therefore my new paradigm that I was prompted to must be the truth. Personal Revelation first Prophets second. That is what I have gathered from this thread. And since I can get all the revelation myself I really do not need a prophet at all.

How do you know the prophet is indeed the prophet without personal revelation? Aren't we commanded to seek personal revelation on this very matter?

Now which comes 1st and which comes 2nd?

Does Moroni 10:3-5 no longer apply? ....especially verse 5?

[Jason]

I agree with Rosabella in that, while I know she does not really believe the absurd conclusions she explicated, they are in fact the only logical conclusions to the idea that continues to be promoted on this site, that Personal revelation is higher than the word of the Prophet. I myself wrestled with this issue many years ago, while considering whether or not to embrace Mormonism. The question was very simple, if I can receive revelation for myself that would be more binding upon me than the words of any other person, though he be a prophet, then why even have one? Why even have an organized church at all, if all that is required is to pray and receive personal revelation? You might argue that having the gift of the Holy Ghost requires the priesthood, but that is only if you believe the words of prophets such as Joseph Smith, Moses or the New Testament Apostles, who asserted that priesthood is necessary. But if my revelation tells me that I am saved just because I believe in Jesus, then who needs priesthood, baptism or any other ordinance. In fact, who needs commandments at all, since I can be told directly what God wants me to do.

The correct order of priority is first the words of the current prophet, followed by those of all previous prophets including the scriptures, and lastly my own revelation. In this way I do not make the error of thinking that I can reinterpret scripture that the Prophet has already interpreted. I know people who have done just that, decided that the scriptures mean something different that what the LDS prophets including Joseph Smith have taught us and are now embracing the principles of the New Occult, including the notion that Evil and Good are only illusions, and that God is a universal force and consciousness that is in everyone and everything, down to the most minute electron. These people have decided that Mormonism was only a stepping stone to this new higher truth that they have discovered through personal revelation and since their personal revelations are more important that the words of any prophet, they are now on a higher spiritual plane than the church and its leaders. Needless to say these individuals have left the church. They became so enamored of the idea that they were prophets unto themselves that they threw away the compass that God has given us.

Those who continue to claim loyalty to the organized church and its prophet, while claiming exception to his words based on so-called personal revelation are trying to live in two opposite camps. They rebel against following authority out of willfullness, yet claim hypocritically to embrace the restored church in order that they might still be well thought of by their LDS friends and family. They also enjoy, I believe, the feeling of being above any law that they get from wandering the no-man's land between the gospel and complete spiritual independence. They feel a false sense of superiority to those who adhere to the prophet's counsel, mocking them as "blind followers", unaware they they themselves are now standing on the first floor of the Great and Spacious Building.

Ahh but you are ignoring the fact that the Lord's house is a house of order....with a head. The organization is requisite to our eternal progression....or else it wouldn't exist. But you must gain your own testimony of the organization and its actions or you can never be truly invigorated to espouse those beliefs and actions as your own.

What comes 1st? What comes 2nd?

Can you truly "follow the prophet" if you've never received or sought personal revelation that he is indeed the prophet and that his counsel comes directly from God?

[NoGreaterLove]

just happen to think that Christ would much rather have a living thinking believer that can use the intellect he gave us instead of a living nonthinking always having to be directed in everything follower. Thats all I'm saying. If people want to think that if you try and think at all then you are not following the prophet so be it. ***shrugs***

You interpret this as not thinking. On the contrary, I have thought a lot. To believe the prophet speaks God's word, to believe the Book of Mormon speaks God's word, or the D&C, pearl of great price or the temple endowments, is correct. All should be treated with the same respect of "thinking" and contemplation. All require a testimony of their truthfulness. All require obedience to the law first in faith, then obtaining a testimony later. Alma says plant the seed first, then if it grows, it is a good seed. If not, cast it out. The prophet has given us a seed, obey the laws of the land. Plant it!

[NoGreaterLove]

So...are those of you arguing FOR submission to secular authority implying that these GOVERNMENT appointed & commissioned doctors were making the right decision by submitting to those in secular AUTHORITY over them?

This person had laws in place that allowed him to seek for redress immediately. However, I would bet fear for his life and the life of his family is what caused him to not seek this redress. So he chose to save himself and his family over the thousands who he inflicted. I would say bravery and sacrifice would have been the proper attitude.
There are laws in place and courts established that would have heard his case. He chose not to use them, probably out of fear. I do not think you, BG would have chosen the course of fear, but would have taken them to court to fight them.
He did not have a gun placed over his head, he had time to address the issue properly. If a gun was over his head, then he should have chosen death.

[Jason]

So...are those of you arguing FOR submission to secular authority implying that these GOVERNMENT appointed & commissioned doctors were making the right decision by submitting to those in secular AUTHORITY over them?

This person had laws in place that allowed him to seek for redress immediately. However, I would bet fear for his life and the life of his family is what caused him to not seek this redress. So he chose to save himself and his family over the thousands who he inflicted. I would say bravery and sacrifice would have been the proper attitude.
There are laws in place and courts established that would have heard his case. He chose not to use them, probably out of fear. I do not think you, BG would have chosen the course of fear, but would have taken them to court to fight them.
He did not have a gun placed over his head, he had time to address the issue properly. If a gun was over his head, then he should have chosen death.

Perhaps you'll get a similar opportunity....

[NoGreaterLove]

The prophets counsel to us is a check and a balance, a measurement if you will, to measure our personal revelations by. In other words take your personal revelation and measure its accuracy by seeing if it is in line with what the prophets have taught.

What a prophets counsel it NOT.
A prophets counsel is not something you place next to your ruler of personal revelation to see if the counsel is correct. For to do so is to measure the Word of God against your personal revelation to see if the Word of God is correct, thus becoming a god unto your self, a god who is greater than God!

And just like Rosa is saying, you begin to delve into the new age way of thinking and are a participant and a teacher of it.

The yardstick is the Word of God as spoken through his prophets. Black and White! If your revelation is contrary to or does not measure up to this yardstick, check your source because it is not God.

[NoGreaterLove]

I agree with Rosabella in that, while I know she does not really believe the absurd conclusions she explicated, they are in fact the only logical conclusions to the idea that continues to be promoted on this site, that Personal revelation is higher than the word of the Prophet. I myself wrestled with this issue many years ago, while considering whether or not to embrace Mormonism. The question was very simple, if I can receive revelation for myself that would be more binding upon me than the words of any other person, though he be a prophet, then why even have one? Why even have an organized church at all, if all that is required is to pray and receive personal revelation? You might argue that having the gift of the Holy Ghost requires the priesthood, but that is only if you believe the words of prophets such as Joseph Smith, Moses or the New Testament Apostles, who asserted that priesthood is necessary. But if my revelation tells me that I am saved just because I believe in Jesus, then who needs priesthood, baptism or any other ordinance. In fact, who needs commandments at all, since I can be told directly what God wants me to do.

The correct order of priority is first the words of the current prophet, followed by those of all previous prophets including the scriptures, and lastly my own revelation. In this way I do not make the error of thinking that I can reinterpret scripture that the Prophet has already interpreted. I know people who have done just that, decided that the scriptures mean something different that what the LDS prophets including Joseph Smith have taught us and are now embracing the principles of the New Occult, including the notion that Evil and Good are only illusions, and that God is a universal force and consciousness that is in everyone and everything, down to the most minute electron. These people have decided that Mormonism was only a stepping stone to this new higher truth that they have discovered through personal revelation and since their personal revelations are more important that the words of any prophet, they are now on a higher spiritual plane than the church and its leaders. Needless to say these individuals have left the church. They became so enamored of the idea that they were prophets unto themselves that they threw away the compass that God has given us.

Those who continue to claim loyalty to the organized church and its prophet, while claiming exception to his words based on so-called personal revelation are trying to live in two opposite camps. They rebel against following authority out of willfullness, yet claim hypocritically to embrace the restored church in order that they might still be well thought of by their LDS friends and family. They also enjoy, I believe, the feeling of being above any law that they get from wandering the no-man's land between the gospel and complete spiritual independence. They feel a false sense of superiority to those who adhere to the prophet's counsel, mocking them as "blind followers", unaware they they themselves are now standing on the first floor of the Great and Spacious Building.

Absolute true. Well written.
If you are lukewarm I will spew thee out of my mouth. Decided which side of the fence you are on. You either sustain the prophet by obeying his counsel or the time will come when you will no longer need to worry about it. A separation is coming.