LDS Freedom Forum

Rosabella wrote:

Original_Intent wrote: And it is breaking, not braking. Braking is what you do to decelerate a vehicle.

This is why I have asked for assistance in editing my site LOL Thanks for the correction. If my word processor does not reject it, it gets posted....

Speaking of assistance.....

Mummy wrote:

Rosabella wrote:

Original_Intent wrote: And it is breaking, not braking. Braking is what you do to decelerate a vehicle.

This is why I have asked for assistance in editing my site LOL Thanks for the correction. If my word processor does not reject it, it gets posted....

Speaking of assistance.....

soon......

I just finally got real internet yesterday. So finally I can actually do real stuff online. I had only a wireless internet that was sooo hard to work with, it was way to slow to do anything. I could not even watch the YouTube videos on my site! So I will be working on my site this next week if all goes well

Rosabella wrote: soon......

I just finally got real internet yesterday. So finally I can actually do real stuff online. I had only a wireless internet that was sooo hard to work with, it was way to slow to do anything. I could not even watch the YouTube videos on my site! So I will be working on my site this next week if all goes well

Got some vacation to burn up this month.....

Rosabella wrote:Maybe I should not post on these threads. I just will go back to exposing the new age as Lucifer's counterfeit spirituality and its plans for one world government and religion which is a bit different than NWO, and stay out of these debates. I just feel they tend to go in circles. I am not sure if it is because people really think differently or the way we express it via forums does not communicate it correctly.

Rosabella, I understand that if there is a choice to follow a satanic leadership and be semi free to still baptize and get people to the temple the choice is clear. Choose the one that is going to make the biggest impact on the eternities and do the most good for the most people. I understand you are saying that the ptb are trying to get the people to rebel so they can clamp down and take the control they were looking for all along. That's why there is much information out now about them that was never allowed to be out before. Its like Wikileaks, do we really believe they would allow this type of information out in the public if it was not going to further their plans? No they would not.

But, there are people out there right now that do not pay taxes, do not use money, do not have driver licenses or government ID's of any kind, they have allodial title to everything they own meaning they are off the tax grid, in other words they live in a world that is equivalent to pre 1900 America. And they have done it for many years. Most of us including myself are not prepared to put in the kind of time, effort and sacrifice it takes to achieve this type of freedom. So yes I agree with you that flying under the radar as much as possible for the good of the kingdom is what God would have us do.

I do not agree, however, with NGL's statements that if you try and fight in unconventional ways against this tyrannical, satanic and psychopathic plan then you are going to hell. This is ludicrous. That if you don't follow the Prophets and leaderships words to a tee you are doomed. If we are prompted to go to jail or even die in protest of these satanical designs there is nobody that is going to judge us not even the Prophet if it was prompted by the spirit. Yes, at this point in time it is uncommon but not rare for these things to happen and it will become ever so common in the very near future. I have made big changes in the hearts and minds of city councils, judges chambers, congressman and groups of all kinds by writing and speaking my mind when most people would never do so.

Yes I obey most all laws for the reason we both know God would have us do so. But I will not box myself into a corner and think that it is black and white and I am never to think for myself. I have went against the law many times in front of law enforcement only to have them walk away because they knew right is right and wrong is wrong. I have told a judge to his face that just because it is legal does not make it lawful and he agreed. There are many many ways to look at things and many levels of understanding.

I love your work and efforts to teach the people about your chosen passion. Please keep up your good works for the rest of us. This is why you have chosen to obey the unconstitutional laws of this land so the Lord could work through you for a much more wise and important purpose than going to jail or dieing.

I try to shake things up a little sometimes to get people thinking. Opening peoples minds to new horizons and new ways of thinking is a wonderful thing.

Rosabella wrote:

Latter-day Saints should strictly obey the laws of the government in which they live. By our own declaration of faith we are committed to do so , for we declare to the world that “we believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.” (A of F 1:12.)

I guess I do not understand how people get around this clear statement. It is not talking about the Constitution of American it is talking about even Kings which we do not have. Why are we told to obey the laws of Governments in this statement if that is not what the Church is really saying?

Though I am NOT libertarian in thought or party, this article answers your question really well
http://ldsliberty.org/the-twelfth-artic ... o-the-law/

Mahonri wrote:Though I am NOT libertarian in thought or party, this article answers your question really well http://ldsliberty.org/the-twelfth-artic ... o-the-law/

This discussion on the 12th Article of Faith is the best I have ever seen. I lost the link to it a few months ago, thank you Mahonri for posting it again.

One tidbit from said discussion.....


Robert says:
July 20, 2010 at 4:48 pm

The Legal Positivist Interpretation can not claim the verse in D&C 58:21–22 as supporting this view. In our day we think the phrase “law of the land” mean the laws of your country. It does not. Those who force us to obey unconstitutional laws know this very clearly. The law of the land is one group of rights and the “law of the sea” or admiralty law is a whole other group. When at sea on a ship captains have authority over their passengers which the congress and the president never have. All power over the passengers is given to the captain since he is responsible for the lives of everyone on board. The God given rights enumerated by the constitution and its bill of rights are not available to passengers on a ship. Whatever the captain says goes. He can marry you and hang you.
Many court actions against people are under admiralty law. So you can talk to the judge about your constitutional rights and he can say truthfully, “You don’t have any here.” The constitution is the supreme law of the land, not of the nation.
The Lord knew this and He speaks exactly. So when He speaks in D&C 98 and says: And that law of the land which is constitutional, supporting that principle of freedom in maintaining rights and privileges, belongs to all mankind, and is justifiable before me. ” In order for Him to justify it it has to be more than just constitutional it has to comport with that principle of freedom in maintaining rights and privileges, [which] belongs to all mankind. Otherwise He does not justify it.
So do we disobey it. I believe the Lord does justify us in disobeying it. I believe he justified and blessed George Washington and tens of thousands of others for raising up and army and leading them to battle against their own government. I believe Gandhi was justified and blessed of God for disobeying evil “laws” in India. I believe people that do such thing secure themselves a place with God the Eternal Father forever. To disobey an evil law is to risk death. The more evil it is the greater the risk. But such that do lay down their lives in order that others might live free.
If you are still wondering whether “good members of the church” should ever disobey a “law” I suggest you stop reading such articles go watch TV and continue your daily indoctrination on how to enjoy being a slave. All the major networks are filled with great self helps on this subject.

Opening remarks from the Worldwide Leadership Training, November 13, 2010, President Thomas S. Monson:

https://new.lds.org/training/worldwide- ... s?lang=eng

Whenever the subject of the handbook comes up, I recall an experience I had in the 1970s when I was responsible for the work of the Church in what we called East Germany, or the German Democratic Republic.

The government of East Germany would not allow Church materials to be taken into the country. So I was asked by President Spencer W. Kimball to memorize the new edition of what we then called the General Handbook of Instructions, to cross the border into East Germany, and then to type the handbook for the faithful Church leaders there. Although it would have been impossible for anyone to actually memorize the entire book, I did study it thoroughly and learned the concepts from cover to cover. I traveled to East Germany and asked the Church leaders there for an office, a typewriter, and a ream of paper. I commenced typing.

An hour or two—and many pages—later, I stood up to stretch, glanced around the room, and noticed on a bookshelf behind me a copy of the new edition of the General Handbook of Instructions in the German language. Someone had obviously smuggled it across the border. Since that time, I’ve been rather knowledgeable concerning the contents of that book.

Now, that's an interesting story!

buffalo-girl,
I'm a johnny-come-lately to this thread but in case it hasn't yet been mentioned, remember that Elder Packer admitted bribing an East German official on a train when his wife's passport was not accepted.
MnG

Personal Revelation has to be the Key.

buffalo_girl wrote:Personal Revelation has to be the Key.

Indeed, but too many here believe that PR and the spirit count for nothing. Only following the prophet means anything to some on this forum. The exact wording and literal meanings of conference talks are the only thing we should go by according to some here. It is mind numbing to me.....

While the prophet and general authorities represent an extremely important link to God and his wishes for us, the most important link to the knowledge and spirituality we need on a daily basis comes from our relationship with the Godhead first and foremost. If we do not have a personal relationship with these three first, there is nothing a general authority or even a Prophet is going to be able to say to help us. You do not have a spiritual link with the Prophet, you have spiritual link and relationship with the spirit of God. To blindly follow men who only represent the Godhead on this earth is akin to giving a braille bible to a sighted person and expecting them to know what it says when they have no training in such matters. Another way to put it is when you only follow the prophet and the general authorities, without a testimony that only PR and the spirit can give, it is like reading a book but only reading every third or forth line and expecting to understand what the book is trying to say.

Prayer, Scripture study, PR (Spirit) and then the Prophet.

I agree with you 100%. Thankyou for saying what I have been thinking.

I think this is an important to point out:

So I was asked by President Spencer W. Kimball to memorize the new edition of what we then called the General Handbook of Instructions, to cross the border into East Germany

This example shows that the order to go against the law in East Germany was given directly by a Prophet. So I do not see how it counters anything that has been said in regarding following the Prophet when he says to keep the laws or when he says to break them. It is a excellent example of what when and how they do break the rules of the land.

I believe in following the Spirit when prompted but not outside of what the Lord's Prophet has said. So many LDS have been prompted by the Spirit to do things against what the Prophet has said. "They say I was told by the Spirit!" Many many LDS are not prompted by the real Spirit of God but a counterfeit spirit. Therein lies the danger. We need to step very carefully when our promptings tell us something different that what the Prophet has said. This is how many of the apostates justify their leaving the Church.

So yes there are those of us hear that hearken on the Prophets words. When I receive prompting they should be inline with the Church. That is a good test to see if the prompting is coming from the right source. Many today disagree with the Church on Prop 8 and say that the Lord has prompted them to fight against the Church's stand on the topic. I hear all the time people that claim the lord told them to do this or that that are not inline with the Church including leaving the Church.

I completely believe in being as obedient as possible so that the Spirit is with me at all times so I am not deceived by a false spirit. In my line of research this is most important for I deal with the false lies daily. If I did not have the gift of discernment I could easily be confused by what is truth and what is lies.
http://lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideN ... 82620aRCRD

The gift of discerning of spirits allows the faithful to distinguish between the influence of good and evil spirits.

In the early days of the restored Church, members of the Church, as well as members of other religious groups, sometimes acted upon influences from evil or false spirits, believing they were under the influence of the Holy Ghost. The Prophet Joseph Smith taught: “Recent occurrences that have transpired amongst us render it an imperative duty devolving upon me to say something in relation to the spirits by which men are actuated.

“It is evident from the Apostles’ writings [in the New Testament], that many false spirits existed in their day, and had ‘gone forth into the world,’ and that it needed intelligence which God alone could impart to detect false spirits, and to prove what spirits were of God [see 1 John 4:1–4]. The world in general have been grossly ignorant in regard to this one thing, and why should they be otherwise—‘for no man knows the things of God, but by the Spirit of God.’ [See 1 Corinthians 2:11.] …

“There always did, in every age, seem to be a lack of intelligence pertaining to this subject. Spirits of all kinds have been manifested, in every age, and almost amongst all people. … All have their spirits, all have a supernatural agency, and all contend that their spirits are of God. Who shall solve the mystery? ‘Try the spirits,’ says John [1 John 4:1], but who is to do it? The learned, the eloquent, the philosopher, the sage, the divine—all are ignorant. … Who can drag into daylight and develop the hidden mysteries of the false spirits that so frequently are made manifest among the Latter-day Saints? We answer that no man can do this without the Priesthood, and having a knowledge of the laws by which spirits are governed; for as ‘no man knows the things of God, but by the Spirit of God,’ so no man knows the spirit of the devil, and his power and influence, but by possessing intelligence which is more than human, and having unfolded through the medium of the Priesthood the mysterious operations of his devices. …

“A man must have the discerning of spirits before he can drag into daylight this hellish influence and unfold it unto the world in all its soul-destroying, diabolical, and horrid colors; for nothing is a greater injury to the children of men than to be under the influence of a false spirit when they think they have the Spirit of God. Thousands have felt the influence of its terrible power and baneful effects. …

“As we have noticed before, the great difficulty lies in the ignorance of the nature of spirits, of the laws by which they are governed, and the signs by which they may be known; if it requires the Spirit of God to know the things of God; and the spirit of the devil can only be unmasked through that medium, then it follows as a natural consequence that unless some person or persons have a communication, or revelation from God, unfolding to them the operation of the spirit, they must eternally remain ignorant of these principles; for I contend that if one man cannot understand these things but by the Spirit of God, ten thousand men cannot; it is alike out of the reach of the wisdom of the learned, the tongue of the eloquent, the power of the mighty. And we shall at last have to come to this conclusion, whatever we may think of revelation, that without it we can neither know nor understand anything of God, or the devil; and however unwilling the world may be to acknowledge this principle, it is evident from the multifarious creeds and notions concerning this matter that they understand nothing of this principle, and it is equally as plain that without a divine communication they must remain in ignorance. …

“A man must have the discerning of spirits, as we before stated, to understand these things, and how is he to obtain this gift if there are no gifts of the Spirit? And how can these gifts be obtained without revelation? ‘Christ ascended into heaven, and gave gifts to men; and He gave some Apostles, and some Prophets, and some Evangelists, and some Pastors and Teachers’ [see Ephesians 4:8, 11]. And how were Apostles, Prophets, Pastors, Teachers and Evangelists chosen? By prophecy (revelation) and by laying on of hands:—by a divine communication, and a divinely appointed ordinance—through the medium of the Priesthood, organized according to the order of God, by divine appointment. The Apostles in ancient times held the keys of this Priesthood—of the mysteries of the kingdom of God, and consequently were enabled to unlock and unravel all things pertaining to the government of the Church, the welfare of society, the future destiny of men, and the agency, power and influence of spirits; for they could control them at pleasure, bid them depart in the name of Jesus, and detect their mischievous and mysterious operations when trying to palm themselves upon the Church in a religious garb, and militate against the interest of the Church and spread of truth. …

“… Our Savior, the Apostles, and even the members of the Church were endowed with this gift, for, says Paul, ‘To one is given the gift of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues, to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the discerning of spirits.’ [See 1 Corinthians 12:10.] All these proceeded from the same Spirit of God, and were the gifts of God. … No man nor set of men without the regularly constituted authorities, the Priesthood and discerning of spirits, can tell true from false spirits.”18

“Lying spirits are going forth in the earth. There will be great manifestations of spirits, both false and true. … Every spirit, or vision, or singing, is not of God. … The gift of discerning spirits will be given to the Presiding Elder. Pray for him that he may have this gift.”19

The Presiding Elder trumps all personal revelations. In this case they were referring to the President of the Church.

The quickest way to lose the Spirit of God is to do something that goes against what we already know to be true. Once that occurs the we are very open to receiving false promptings of all kinds. Are we all not sinners and make mistakes that drive away the Spirit? Therefor we must be as careful as possible to have the Spirit with us at all times. Even when we have the Spirit we also can come under the influence and prompting of the adversary, but with gift of discernment we can tell what is of God and what is not, but the final say comes from the Prophet not us for he holds the Keys.

In the rare examples where the Lord has directed one to go against his prior commandments. If you notice the person does not jump to do it. He labors in prayer, confused and trying to make sure that what they are being told is true. So if and when we are told by the Spirit to break a law be better have first not have it be something we planned or wanted to do, but something that we make sure the Lord has told us to do at that moment and if we have any leader that we can talk to that has keys over us, we must first discuss it with them if we can. We should not be itching to break any rules, be they God's rules or those of a temporal government, and if we do feel God prompting us we better be sure it is not counter to His direction to the Prophet and should labor with the Lord in prayer to be sure it is His will, leaving out any personal bias or desire. The spirit or desire to break rules of any kind is a rebellious spirit not a spirit of obedience. Someone may pride themselves on the notion that they would willingly rebel against temporal government and are itching to do so, this is the same spirit however that leads other to rebel against Church laws or against a parents or teaches or anyone in authority. It is a willfulness disguised as righteous willingness to become a martyr. This is the difference of humility and pride. The humble follower of God seeks actively for ever occasion to obey God and earthly authorities and only disobeys the latter with great reticence and only when God commands him and when it is in accordance with the words of he Lord's mouth piece. Those that seek opportunity to disobey laws of the land and glory in doing so will also sooner or later seek occasion to disobey God and His leaders. The blood lust that one feels against the powers that be does not come from God. For God has told us to Love our enemies. Nephi did not have blood lust to kill Laban even though Laban had stolen all of their properties and threaten their lives. He was still very very reticent to shed blood and had to be persuaded by the Lord to do it. I believe in this case Nephi's slowness in obeying far from being a mark of disobedience or lack of faith was counted to him for righteousness, because it stemmed from his desire to be absolutely obedient to the commandment "Thou shalt not kill".

The new age spirituality puts first mans promptings. The Church puts first the words of the Prophet.

Rosabella wrote:I believe in following the Spirit when prompted but not outside of what the Lord's Prophet has said. So many LDS have been prompted by the Spirit to do things against what the Prophet has said. "They say I was told by the Spirit!" Many many LDS are not prompted by the real Spirit of God but a counterfeit spirit. Therein lies the danger. We need to step very carefully when our promptings tell us something different that what the Prophet has said. This is how many of the apostates justify their leaving the Church.

So yes there are those of us hear that hearken on the Prophets words. When I receive prompting they should be inline with the Church. That is a good test to see if the prompting is coming from the right source. Many today disagree with the Church on Prop 8 and say that the Lord has prompted them to fight against the Church's stand on the topic. I hear all the time people that claim the lord told them to do this or that that are not inline with the Church including leaving the Church.

I completely believe in being as obedient as possible so that the Spirit is with me at all times so I am not deceived by a false spirit. In my line of research this is most important for I deal with the false lies daily. If I did not have the gift of discernment I could easily be confused by what is truth and what is lies.
http://lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideN ... 82620aRCRD

The gift of discerning of spirits allows the faithful to distinguish between the influence of good and evil spirits.

In the early days of the restored Church, members of the Church, as well as members of other religious groups, sometimes acted upon influences from evil or false spirits, believing they were under the influence of the Holy Ghost. The Prophet Joseph Smith taught: “Recent occurrences that have transpired amongst us render it an imperative duty devolving upon me to say something in relation to the spirits by which men are actuated.

“It is evident from the Apostles’ writings [in the New Testament], that many false spirits existed in their day, and had ‘gone forth into the world,’ and that it needed intelligence which God alone could impart to detect false spirits, and to prove what spirits were of God [see 1 John 4:1–4]. The world in general have been grossly ignorant in regard to this one thing, and why should they be otherwise—‘for no man knows the things of God, but by the Spirit of God.’ [See 1 Corinthians 2:11.] …

“There always did, in every age, seem to be a lack of intelligence pertaining to this subject. Spirits of all kinds have been manifested, in every age, and almost amongst all people. … All have their spirits, all have a supernatural agency, and all contend that their spirits are of God. Who shall solve the mystery? ‘Try the spirits,’ says John [1 John 4:1], but who is to do it? The learned, the eloquent, the philosopher, the sage, the divine—all are ignorant. … Who can drag into daylight and develop the hidden mysteries of the false spirits that so frequently are made manifest among the Latter-day Saints? We answer that no man can do this without the Priesthood, and having a knowledge of the laws by which spirits are governed; for as ‘no man knows the things of God, but by the Spirit of God,’ so no man knows the spirit of the devil, and his power and influence, but by possessing intelligence which is more than human, and having unfolded through the medium of the Priesthood the mysterious operations of his devices. …

“A man must have the discerning of spirits before he can drag into daylight this hellish influence and unfold it unto the world in all its soul-destroying, diabolical, and horrid colors; for nothing is a greater injury to the children of men than to be under the influence of a false spirit when they think they have the Spirit of God. Thousands have felt the influence of its terrible power and baneful effects. …

“As we have noticed before, the great difficulty lies in the ignorance of the nature of spirits, of the laws by which they are governed, and the signs by which they may be known; if it requires the Spirit of God to know the things of God; and the spirit of the devil can only be unmasked through that medium, then it follows as a natural consequence that unless some person or persons have a communication, or revelation from God, unfolding to them the operation of the spirit, they must eternally remain ignorant of these principles; for I contend that if one man cannot understand these things but by the Spirit of God, ten thousand men cannot; it is alike out of the reach of the wisdom of the learned, the tongue of the eloquent, the power of the mighty. And we shall at last have to come to this conclusion, whatever we may think of revelation, that without it we can neither know nor understand anything of God, or the devil; and however unwilling the world may be to acknowledge this principle, it is evident from the multifarious creeds and notions concerning this matter that they understand nothing of this principle, and it is equally as plain that without a divine communication they must remain in ignorance. …

“A man must have the discerning of spirits, as we before stated, to understand these things, and how is he to obtain this gift if there are no gifts of the Spirit? And how can these gifts be obtained without revelation? ‘Christ ascended into heaven, and gave gifts to men; and He gave some Apostles, and some Prophets, and some Evangelists, and some Pastors and Teachers’ [see Ephesians 4:8, 11]. And how were Apostles, Prophets, Pastors, Teachers and Evangelists chosen? By prophecy (revelation) and by laying on of hands:—by a divine communication, and a divinely appointed ordinance—through the medium of the Priesthood, organized according to the order of God, by divine appointment. The Apostles in ancient times held the keys of this Priesthood—of the mysteries of the kingdom of God, and consequently were enabled to unlock and unravel all things pertaining to the government of the Church, the welfare of society, the future destiny of men, and the agency, power and influence of spirits; for they could control them at pleasure, bid them depart in the name of Jesus, and detect their mischievous and mysterious operations when trying to palm themselves upon the Church in a religious garb, and militate against the interest of the Church and spread of truth. …

“… Our Savior, the Apostles, and even the members of the Church were endowed with this gift, for, says Paul, ‘To one is given the gift of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues, to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the discerning of spirits.’ [See 1 Corinthians 12:10.] All these proceeded from the same Spirit of God, and were the gifts of God. … No man nor set of men without the regularly constituted authorities, the Priesthood and discerning of spirits, can tell true from false spirits.”18

“Lying spirits are going forth in the earth. There will be great manifestations of spirits, both false and true. … Every spirit, or vision, or singing, is not of God. … The gift of discerning spirits will be given to the Presiding Elder. Pray for him that he may have this gift.”19

The Presiding Elder trumps all personal revelations. In this case they were referring to the President of the Church.

The quickest way to lose the Spirit of God is to do something that goes against what we already know to be true. Once that occurs the we are very open to receiving false promptings of all kinds. Are we all not sinners and make mistakes that drive away the Spirit? Therefor we must be as careful as possible to have the Spirit with us at all times. Even when we have the Spirit we also can come under the influence and prompting of the adversary, but with gift of discernment we can tell what is of God and what is not, but the final say comes from the Prophet not us for he holds the Keys.

In the rare examples where the Lord has directed one to go against his prior commandments. If you notice the person does not jump to do it. He labors in prayer, confused and trying to make sure that what they are being told is true. So if and when we are told by the Spirit to break a law be better have first not have it be something we planned or wanted to do, but something that we make sure the Lord has told us to do at that moment and if we have any leader that we can talk to that has keys over us, we must first discuss it with them if we can. We should not be itching to break any rules, be they God's rules or those of a temporal government, and if we do fell God prompting us we better be sure it is not counter to His direction to the Prophet and should labor with the Lord in prayer to be sure it is His will, leaving out any personal bias or desire. The spirit or desire to break rules of any kind is a rebellious spirit not a spirit of obedience. Someone may pride themselves on the notion that they would willingly rebel against temporal government and are itching to do so, this is the same spirit however that leads other to rebel against Church laws or against a parents or teaches or anyone in authority. It is a willfulness disguised as righteous willingness to become a martyr. This is the difference of humility and pride. The humble follower of God seeks actively for ever occasion to obey God and earthly authorities and only disobeys the latter with great reticence and only when God commands him and when it is in accordance with the words of he Lord's mouth piece. Those that seek opportunity to disobey laws of the land and glory in doing so will also sooner or later seek occasion to disobey God and His leaders. The blood lust that one feels against the powers that be does not come from God. For God has told us to Love our enemies. Nephi did not have blood lust to kill Laban even though Laban had stolen all of their properties and threaten their lives. He was still very very reticent to shed blood and had to be persuaded by the Lord to do it. I believe in this case Nephi's slowness in obeying far from being a mark of disobedience or lack of faith was counted to him for righteousness, because it stemmed from his desire to be absolutely obedient to the commandment "Thou shalt not kill".

The new age spirituality puts first mans promptings. The Church puts first the words of the Prophet.

Although I have not posted, I still continue to monitor this discussion. I would add my testimony to what RosaBella has said. Please look into your hearts on this matter. Seek the counsel and advice of those in stewardship over you and trust the prophets and apostles in this matter.

LittleLion wrote:

buffalo_girl wrote:Personal Revelation has to be the Key.

Indeed, but too many here believe that PR and the spirit count for nothing. Only following the prophet means anything to some on this forum. The exact wording and literal meanings of conference talks are the only thing we should go by according to some here. It is mind numbing to me.....

While the prophet and general authorities represent an extremely important link to God and his wishes for us, the most important link to the knowledge and spirituality we need on a daily basis comes from our relationship with the Godhead first and foremost. If we do not have a personal relationship with these three first, there is nothing a general authority or even a Prophet is going to be able to say to help us. You do not have a spiritual link with the Prophet, you have spiritual link and relationship with the spirit of God. To blindly follow men who only represent the Godhead on this earth is akin to giving a braille bible to a sighted person and expecting them to know what it says when they have no training in such matters. Another way to put it is when you only follow the prophet and the general authorities, without a testimony that only PR and the spirit can give, it is like reading a book but only reading every third or forth line and expecting to understand what the book is trying to say.

Prayer, Scripture study, PR (Spirit) and then the Prophet.

+1

Evidently members of the church are having a hard time understanding following the prophet. We had three talks last conference dealing with this issue. Here are excerpts from those three talks. The quotes are in order as given in the talk, but may be separated by other words. The full content is available on LDS.org
We need to put to rest false doctrine that is being spread about following our prophets. We need to take the counsel given in a previous conference to proclaim the truth and correct errors that are viciously being spread on the internet.

"Trusting in and following the prophets is more than a blessing and a privilege. President Ezra Taft Benson declared that “our [very] salvation hangs on” following the prophet"

Yes, your salvation does hang on this issue.



Obedience to the Prophets
Claudio R. M. Costa

“First: The prophet is the only man who speaks for the Lord in everything” (1980 Devotional Speeches of the Year [1981], 26).
We are counseled to “give heed unto all his words and commandments” (D&C 21:4). We also learn:

Second fundamental: “The living prophet is more vital to us than the standard works” (“Fourteen Fundamentals,” 26).

Third fundamental: “The living prophet is more important to us than a dead prophet” (“Fourteen Fundamentals,” 27).

Fourth fundamental: “The prophet will never lead the Church astray” (“Fourteen Fundamentals,” 27).

“Sixth: The prophet does not have to say ‘Thus saith the Lord’ to give us scripture.
“And now it came to pass that after I, Nephi, had made an end of speaking to my brethren, behold they said unto me: Thou hast declared unto us hard things, more than we are able to bear. …
“And now my brethren, if ye were righteous and were willing to hearken to the truth, and give heed unto it, that ye might walk uprightly before God, then ye would not murmur because of the truth, and say: Thou speakest hard things against us.”

“Eleventh: The two groups who have the greatest difficulty in following the prophet are the proud who are learned and the proud who are rich. …

“Fourteenth: The prophet and the presidency—the living prophet and the first presidency—follow them and be blessed; reject them and suffer” (“Fourteen Fundamentals,” 29).


Our Very Survival
Kevin R. Duncan

These were remarkable promises. Many Church members had faith in Brigham Young’s prophecies, while others remained skeptical and left for what they assumed would be a better life. Yet history has shown that every prophecy Brigham Young declared has come to pass. The valley did blossom and produce. The Saints prospered.

The prophet and President of the Church today, Thomas S. Monson, receives God’s word for the entire membership of the Church and for the world.

We would do well to search out answers to our problems and questions by investigating what the Lord has revealed through His prophets.

Trusting in and following the prophets is more than a blessing and a privilege. President Ezra Taft Benson declared that “our [very] salvation hangs on” following the prophet.

Brothers and sisters, like the Saints of 1848, we can choose to follow the prophet, or we can look to the arm of flesh. May we have the wisdom to trust in and follow the counsel of the living prophets and apostles.

Trust in God, Then Go and Do
Henry B. Eyring

We don’t know all the reasons for Lucifer’s terrible success in inciting that rebellion. However, one reason is clear. Those who lost the blessing of coming into mortality lacked sufficient trust in God to avoid eternal misery.
The sad pattern of lack of trust in God has persisted since the Creation. I will be careful in giving examples from the lives of God’s children since I do not know all the reasons for their lack of faith enough to trust Him. Many of you have studied the moments of crisis in their lives.

“What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same.”12

I testify that God speaks today through His chosen servants in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Thomas S. Monson is God’s prophet. Our Heavenly Father and His Son, Jesus Christ, live and love us. I so testify in the name of Jesus Christ, amen.

Ok so right now there really are not any laws we NEED to break?

You'd be surprised. Actually in teaching this point I had a discussion with my branch president who held that there were many and further illustrated the point by posing the issue of commercial fishing. There are often lines at the processor after a big opening and they offload on a first come first serve basis. The law states that a captain must remain on the ship while the catch is present. That can take days in port. Should he as the branch president miss church a quarter mile away because he is sitting on his boat waiting until the next day to offload his catch? There are a great many examples just in hunting and fishing alone. Should you release a wounded fish that you know will die because it doesn't fit the slot limit? Remember God views waste as a crime. His statement about obeying the law was that you have no need to break the Constitutional law (because it doesn't conflict with right and wrong). How about trespassing to rescue someone? How about breaking someone else's property to fight a fire (I busted out someones window to put out a fire when nobody else was around). I could go on all day.

Should we have submitted to Gov. Boggs extermination order and kill ourselves/each other? Should we submit to and violate our covenants for the sake of national security?

Wisdom is the only thing keeping my from violating a whole host of laws, not a warped religious philosophy of enforced tyranny. You cannot become exalted by submitting to tyranny. That describes satans plan and how most of his followers got where they are.

How could the church possibly teach that we must submit to tyranny? As to the constitution the scriptures say that whatsoever is more or less than this cometh of evil, Ie. tyranny or anarchy.

NoGreaterLove wrote:
Although I have not posted, I still continue to monitor this discussion. I would add my testimony to what RosaBella has said. Please look into your hearts on this matter. Seek the counsel and advice of those in stewardship over you and trust the prophets and apostles in this matter.

That is one of the most prideful things I have heard you say NGL. If someone disagrees with your view, they have not "looked into their hearts" or sought the council of the Prophets?

We have addressed every point you have made with scriptures and the words of the Prophets, and you ignore all of them, and return with attacks and prideful statements like the above. Not the actions of one who has looked into their heart nor sought the council of others, but the actions of one who is only looking to cherry pick statements that fit their view when taken out of context.

If one wants to go against ancient and modern scripture as well as example, examples that have saved innocent lives, that is their choice, but you can count me out.

SwissMrs&Pitchfire wrote:

Ok so right now there really are not any laws we NEED to break?

You'd be surprised. Actually in teaching this point I had a discussion with my branch president who held that there were many and further illustrated the point by posing the issue of commercial fishing. There are often lines at the processor after a big opening and they offload on a first come first serve basis. The law states that a captain must remain on the ship while the catch is present. That can take days in port. Should he as the branch president miss church a quarter mile away because he is sitting on his boat waiting until the next day to offload his catch? There are a great many examples just in hunting and fishing alone. Should you release a wounded fish that you know will die because it doesn't fit the slot limit? Remember God views waste as a crime. His statement about obeying the law was that you have no need to break the Constitutional law (because it doesn't conflict with right and wrong). How about trespassing to rescue someone? How about breaking someone else's property to fight a fire (I busted out someones window to put out a fire when nobody else was around). I could go on all day.

Should we have submitted to Gov. Boggs extermination order and kill ourselves/each other? Should we submit to and violate our covenants for the sake of national security?

Wisdom is the only thing keeping my from violating a whole host of laws, not a warped religious philosophy of enforced tyranny. You cannot become exalted by submitting to tyranny. That describes satans plan and how most of his followers got where they are.

How could the church possibly teach that we must submit to tyranny? As to the constitution the scriptures say that whatsoever is more or less than this cometh of evil, Ie. tyranny or anarchy.

Thanks and AMEN. I've had enough of this thread. Some people just keep repeating the same lines, it is clear they do not read and ponder what anyone else has written. I submitted a couple of examples just as you did, but of course, no response because that would challenge their paradigm and they can't just repeat the same answers until blue in the face.

Original_Intent wrote:

SwissMrs&Pitchfire wrote:

Ok so right now there really are not any laws we NEED to break?

You'd be surprised. Actually in teaching this point I had a discussion with my branch president who held that there were many and further illustrated the point by posing the issue of commercial fishing. There are often lines at the processor after a big opening and they offload on a first come first serve basis. The law states that a captain must remain on the ship while the catch is present. That can take days in port. Should he as the branch president miss church a quarter mile away because he is sitting on his boat waiting until the next day to offload his catch? There are a great many examples just in hunting and fishing alone. Should you release a wounded fish that you know will die because it doesn't fit the slot limit? Remember God views waste as a crime. His statement about obeying the law was that you have no need to break the Constitutional law (because it doesn't conflict with right and wrong). How about trespassing to rescue someone? How about breaking someone else's property to fight a fire (I busted out someones window to put out a fire when nobody else was around). I could go on all day.

Should we have submitted to Gov. Boggs extermination order and kill ourselves/each other? Should we submit to and violate our covenants for the sake of national security?

Wisdom is the only thing keeping my from violating a whole host of laws, not a warped religious philosophy of enforced tyranny. You cannot become exalted by submitting to tyranny. That describes satans plan and how most of his followers got where they are.

How could the church possibly teach that we must submit to tyranny? As to the constitution the scriptures say that whatsoever is more or less than this cometh of evil, Ie. tyranny or anarchy.

Thanks and AMEN. I've had enough of this thread. Some people just keep repeating the same lines, it is clear they do not read and ponder what anyone else has written. I submitted a couple of examples just as you did, but of course, no response because that would challenge their paradigm and they can't just repeat the same answers until blue in the face.

The other side can say the same. I feel there have been valid points that have not be addressed also. For me it boils down to are we willing to follow the Prophet or are we when push comes to shove do what WE feel is best regardless of what a Prophet says. It is a difficult task for each of us to know if we are truly following the Prophet and if we truly have the Spirit. We must be in a constant state of Thy Will Not Mine, which is a very very hard thing to do for we all are afflicted with the natural man.

Rosabella wrote:The quickest way to lose the Spirit of God is to do something that goes against what we already know to be true. Once that occurs the we are very open to receiving false promptings of all kinds. Are we all not sinners and make mistakes that drive away the Spirit? Therefor we must be as careful as possible to have the Spirit with us at all times. Even when we have the Spirit we also can come under the influence and prompting of the adversary, but with gift of discernment we can tell what is of God and what is not, but the final say comes from the Prophet not us for he holds the Keys.

Very well said Rosabella, I appreciate your efforts and the time you have spent on behalf of others. It proves to me you are following Christs most important words when he was talking to his father at the most crucial time in his life, the words we should all know and live by, the words you use on your site that positively let us know which spirit we are getting information from, the words "Not my will, thy will".

It is true that if personal revelation falls outside the meaning of these words, outside of the one will and one mind of the people of Zion, outside of the tender mercies and love of Christ it is probably not personal revelation of the kind we should be following. I believe as you do, that in this venue, being a forum of black and white, that without looking at the person face to face it is extremely hard to communicate and get across our heart felt intent and meaning. I also believe that most of the people on this forum and especially the ones that have posted in this thread are very passionate about what they believe. That passion, usually does not fall under the heading of pride, nor false spirits, or the willingness to be a martyr, at least the passion that usually comes out of this forum anyway.

I agree with most everything you just posted and the quotes are some wonderful ones to be sure. I do believe that everyone that has posted in this thread are saying pretty much the same things. But, since this is a forum the meanings get skewed in the translations of everyone's writings. I am a very passionate person as my wife, many on this forum and my family and friends will gladly testify to. My passion can come across as mean or prideful. I apologize to everyone here if that is the way you take me sometimes. It is not meant to be this way.

That being said, I would like to explain explicitly what I am trying to say and it falls mostly under the difference between sanctification and justification. There are a few things the Lord will justify us in doing even though they break the most basic laws of his Gospel. One being the absolute right to defend yourself from someone that is trying to kill you even if it means killing them. I like to think of this as the lower law versus the higher law. If you follow the higher law and are looking at the big picture of the eternities, then you know even if you lose your life you will be okay. Moreover, if you lose your life while following the gospel of Christ more than likely you will be sanctified immediately upon death. When Christ says you are justified as in this scripture;

Nevertheless, thine enemy is in thine hands; and if thou rewardest him according to his works thou art justified; if he has sought thy life, and thy life is endangered by him, thine enemy is in thine hands and thou art justified.
DnC 98:31

;That's exactly what he means, you are justified in defending your life against someone that that is trying to take it. Will you be sanctified by doing so? probably not, will you be doomed to hell for doing so? Probably not. If you do take someones life under these circumstances does that mean you can never be sanctified? No it does not. Do I or anyone on this forum really want to take anyone's life? If we profess to be disciples of Christ of course not. This is just one example of many I could mention where Christ would justify you for something that his Gospel and obviously mans law forbids you to do. I am not after the justification of man or his laws. That being said I am not looking to break any of his laws either. I am looking for exactly what Christ wants me to be looking for, a bright hope of resurrection and eternal life.

One of the easiest ways satan has fooled many on this earth is through the law. The reason I say this is because the law is its own language. The same words can have many different meanings in the English language. Those same words have completely different meanings in the law. When you say your a person or a citizen under the law you are saying something completely different than what you think your saying. I have several versions of Blacks law dictionary and it is amazing how satan uses the law to fool you. There is an old Roman maxim that says "Let he who will be decieved, be decieved." Meaning if you don not know the meanings of the words the law is using then the law owns you and the law does not have to tell you what they mean because its their rules not yours. Did you know that one of the meanings of the word accident in BLD is your to blame or it was your fault. So when you go running up to an officer and tell him that you just had an accident you are telling him it was your fault. This is how devious the law is. The reason I am telling you this is because the law is what we are talking about here.

If you do not understand the law then how can you understand if you are breaking the law or actually submitting to what you think your submitting to? They will use their own definitions against you and let you think whatever you want to think. Therefore nothing is black and white in this thread or in the threads heading " Submission to secular authority".

Did you know in the US code there are over 50 volumes? Each volume has numerous definition tables. They have one main definition table in the first volume but then every volume and every code has its own definition table and even parts and subparts have there own definition tables. Meaning there are literally thousands of definition tables in the US code. And you think your not breaking a law right now? I guarantee you everyone breaks many laws (codes) every single day of their lives and they don't even know it.

Bottom line is when you say; "but with gift of discernment we can tell what is of God and what is not, but the final say comes from the Prophet not us for he holds the Keys." this is not always the black and white case every single time. With the Church as a whole yes it is, but the Church is under condemnation right now and it has been since Nauvoo. Does that mean every member is under condemnation also? No it does not. You have to correlate everything to its true relationship and meaning and when the Prophet says something it can and does usually have many different meanings on many different levels. And you absolutely cannot think you know all meanings for all people of of the time. It is not black and white.

I believe the best we can do — or at least the best I can do — is offer and define a principle between one interpretation and another and then leave it to the individual to figure out for themselves exactly how to apply a non-est-lex philosophy (if at all) in their own life. We will be judged accordingly.

Thanks to everyone that has posted anything in this thread, I read everyone's posts even if I do not comment on everything they had to say. And thanks to NGL for starting it.

SwissMrs&Pitchfire wrote:Wisdom is the only thing keeping my from violating a whole host of laws, not a warped religious philosophy of enforced tyranny.

And that sums it up. This is why our prophet isn't on the most wanted list. Wisdom!

shadow wrote:

SwissMrs&Pitchfire wrote:Wisdom is the only thing keeping my from violating a whole host of laws, not a warped religious philosophy of enforced tyranny.

And that sums it up. This is why our prophet isn't on the most wanted list. Wisdom!

LittleLion wrote:

Rosabella wrote:The quickest way to lose the Spirit of God is to do something that goes against what we already know to be true. Once that occurs the we are very open to receiving false promptings of all kinds. Are we all not sinners and make mistakes that drive away the Spirit? Therefor we must be as careful as possible to have the Spirit with us at all times. Even when we have the Spirit we also can come under the influence and prompting of the adversary, but with gift of discernment we can tell what is of God and what is not, but the final say comes from the Prophet not us for he holds the Keys.

Very well said Rosabella, I appreciate your efforts and the time you have spent on behalf of others. It proves to me you are following Christs most important words when he was talking to his father at the most crucial time in his life, the words we should all know and live by, the words you use on your site that positively let us know which spirit we are getting information from, the words "Not my will, thy will".

It is true that if personal revelation falls outside the meaning of these words, outside of the one will and one mind of the people of Zion, outside of the tender mercies and love of Christ it is probably not personal revelation of the kind we should be following. I believe as you do, that in this venue, being a forum of black and white, that without looking at the person face to face it is extremely hard to communicate and get across our heart felt intent and meaning. I also believe that most of the people on this forum and especially the ones that have posted in this thread are very passionate about what they believe. That passion, usually does not fall under the heading of pride, nor false spirits, or the willingness to be a martyr, at least the passion that usually comes out of this forum anyway.

I agree with most everything you just posted and the quotes are some wonderful ones to be sure. I do believe that everyone that has posted in this thread are saying pretty much the same things. But, since this is a forum the meanings get skewed in the translations of everyone's writings. I am a very passionate person as my wife, many on this forum and my family and friends will gladly testify to. My passion can come across as mean or prideful. I apologize to everyone here if that is the way you take me sometimes. It is not meant to be this way.

That being said, I would like to explain explicitly what I am trying to say and it falls mostly under the difference between sanctification and justification. There are a few things the Lord will justify us in doing even though they break the most basic laws of his Gospel. One being the absolute right to defend yourself from someone that is trying to kill you even if it means killing them. I like to think of this as the lower law versus the higher law. If you follow the higher law and are looking at the big picture of the eternities, then you know even if you lose your life you will be okay. Moreover, if you lose your life while following the gospel of Christ more than likely you will be sanctified immediately upon death. When Christ says you are justified as in this scripture;

Nevertheless, thine enemy is in thine hands; and if thou rewardest him according to his works thou art justified; if he has sought thy life, and thy life is endangered by him, thine enemy is in thine hands and thou art justified.
DnC 98:31

;That's exactly what he means, you are justified in defending your life against someone that that is trying to take it. Will you be sanctified by doing so? probably not, will you be doomed to hell for doing so? Probably not. If you do take someones life under these circumstances does that mean you can never be sanctified? No it does not. Do I or anyone on this forum really want to take anyone's life? If we profess to be disciples of Christ of course not. This is just one example of many I could mention where Christ would justify you for something that his Gospel and obviously mans law forbids you to do. I am not after the justification of man or his laws. That being said I am not looking to break any of his laws either. I am looking for exactly what Christ wants me to be looking for, a bright hope of resurrection and eternal life.

One of the easiest ways satan has fooled many on this earth is through the law. The reason I say this is because the law is its own language. The same words can have many different meanings in the English language. Those same words have completely different meanings in the law. When you say your a person or a citizen under the law you are saying something completely different than what you think your saying. I have several versions of Blacks law dictionary and it is amazing how satan uses the law to fool you. There is an old Roman maxim that says "Let he who will be decieved, be decieved." Meaning if you don not know the meanings of the words the law is using then the law owns you and the law does not have to tell you what they mean because its their rules not yours. Did you know that one of the meanings of the word accident in BLD is your to blame or it was your fault. So when you go running up to an officer and tell him that you just had an accident you are telling him it was your fault. This is how devious the law is. The reason I am telling you this is because the law is what we are talking about here.

If you do not understand the law then how can you understand if you are breaking the law or actually submitting to what you think your submitting to? They will use their own definitions against you and let you think whatever you want to think. Therefore nothing is black and white in this thread or in the threads heading " Submission to secular authority".

Did you know in the US code there are over 50 volumes? Each volume has numerous definition tables. They have one main definition table in the first volume but then every volume and every code has its own definition table and even parts and subparts have there own definition tables. Meaning there are literally thousands of definition tables in the US code. And you think your not breaking a law right now? I guarantee you everyone breaks many laws (codes) every single day of their lives and they don't even know it.

Bottom line is when you say; "but with gift of discernment we can tell what is of God and what is not, but the final say comes from the Prophet not us for he holds the Keys." this is not always the black and white case every single time. With the Church as a whole yes it is, but the Church is under condemnation right now and it has been since Nauvoo. Does that mean every member is under condemnation also? No it does not. You have to correlate everything to its true relationship and meaning and when the Prophet says something it can and does usually have many different meanings on many different levels. And you absolutely cannot think you know all meanings for all people of of the time. It is not black and white.

I believe the best we can do — or at least the best I can do — is offer and define a principle between one interpretation and another and then leave it to the individual to figure out for themselves exactly how to apply a non-est-lex philosophy (if at all) in their own life. We will be judged accordingly.

Thanks to everyone that has posted anything in this thread, I read everyone's posts even if I do not comment on everything they had to say. And thanks to NGL for starting it.

Thank you for your very kind words and response. I agree that forums are very difficult to rely ones true heart and true points.

As much as I dislike contention or fighting....One of the most wonderful things about a strong opinionated thread is so many great quotes from the Brethren are brought to light that we might not have ever read

Rosabella wrote:As much as I dislike contention or fighting....One of the most wonderful things about a strong opinionated thread is so many great quotes from the Brethren are brought to light that we might not have ever read

hehe I grew up around a grandfather who simply loved to argue for the sake of arguing. It did not matter what the subject was he would take the opposite tact right or wrong. I hope I don't do that..... too often.

If there is an exception to the rule, especailly an exception from Christ himself as with this subject matter, the discussion is simply not open to black and white debate. Studying satans workings in the law and elsewhere has taught me I don't know anything compared to him. He always has a trick up his sleeve that we would never dream of in a million lifetimes. So I have to defer to the spirit and our leaders often and we should lean on each other as God intended it to be. Indeed wisdom and pragmatism must prevail or we will be sifted as he wishes.