Submission to secular authority.

[NoGreaterLove]

So it was ok to stand up against unrighteous laws in the 1800's but not today?

The Missouri and Nauvoo experience taught us how the Lord wants us to handle unjust enforcement of the laws and unjust laws themselves. We are to redress our wrongs to the powers that be and if they do not make restitution the blood of the saints will cry out from the ground against them.
Our ammuntion is our persecution and blood. Do not give satan ammunition by disobeying D&C 58.

[Mahonri]

So John Taylor, Wilford Woodrruff, George Cannon, Joseph F. Smith, etc, etc, etc were all wrong? The Founders were wrong? Alexander Doniphan was wrong? Daniel was wrong? The three Hebrews were wrong?

[InfoWarrior82]

I believe there are times to resist and times to submit. Submitting only when the prophet receives revelation to do so. For instance: the stopping of plural wives. The lord showed the prophet what would happen to us as a church if we resisted. The same might even be true today if the entire church resisted the "establishment" in our government. We would have the wrath of the government upon us as a free religion.... buuuuut of course the prophet has not come out and said anything on that subject... as of yet.

[NoGreaterLove]

This is how the Lord told Joseph Smith to handle the problems.

D&C 101
76 And again I say unto you, those who have been scattered by their enemies, it is my will that they should continue to importune for redress, and redemption, by the hands of those who are placed as rulers and are in authority over you—
D&C 134
11 We believe that men should appeal to the civil law for redress of all wrongs and grievances, where personal abuse is inflicted or the right of property or character infringed, where such laws exist as will protect the same; but we believe that all men are justified in defending themselves, their friends, and property, and the government, from the unlawful assaults and encroachments of all persons in times of exigency, where immediate appeal cannot be made to the laws, and relief afforded


Mah
I believe in following the prophet.

[Mahonri]

I believe in following the Prophet

What do you mean by that?

Are you saying other posters here (like myself) no not?

Are you saying John Taylor was not following the Prophet when he was Prophet? (Those sections were revealed before he was Prophet)

[Mark]

It's important to first understand the will of God. For example, D&C 82:22 tells us to "make unto yourselves friends with the mammon of unrighteousness, and they will not destroy you." Try as you might, you won't be friends with the government (mammon) by defying them. Of course the only person I've seen here that defies the United States to any degree has been CHH. Everyone else is just talk (hypocrites 8) ). It's served CHH well hasn't it??

Get with the program, the church program as revealed by up to date revelation! The patience of the saints etc. etc. Verse 23 is pretty cool.

wait. So it was ok to stand up against unrighteous laws in the 1800's but not today? But that scripture you gave was given in the 1800's.

seeing the actions of Prophets of God throughout time clearly shows your interpretation to be completely false. Your attitude mocks the servants of God that sacrificed so much for you. How disgustingly ungrateful.

Honestly Mahonri I can't tell if you just make a special concerted effort to communicate like a horses hiney or if it just comes natural for you. Can you settle all the bets on the table once and for all?

[InfoWarrior82]

11 We believe that men should appeal to the civil law for redress of all wrongs and grievances, where personal abuse is inflicted or the right of property or character infringed, where such laws exist as will protect the same; but we believe that all men are justified in defending themselves, their friends, and property, and the government, from the unlawful assaults and encroachments of all persons in times of exigency, where immediate appeal cannot be made to the laws, and relief afforded


Mah
I believe in following the prophet.

Has there been any relief afforded recently as to any unjust and unconstitutional laws? I wouldn't say so. I think resistance in the face of this great tyranny that is upon us in defending truth, liberty, and the ferreting out of corruption is completely justified. I'm glad we're in agreement, NGL!

[Amore Vero]

This is how the Lord told Joseph Smith to handle the problems.

D&C 101
76 And again I say unto you, those who have been scattered by their enemies, it is my will that they should continue to importune for redress, and redemption, by the hands of those who are placed as rulers and are in authority over you—
D&C 134
11 We believe that men should appeal to the civil law for redress of all wrongs and grievances, where personal abuse is inflicted or the right of property or character infringed, where such laws exist as will protect the same; but we believe that all men are justified in defending themselves, their friends, and property, and the government, from the unlawful assaults and encroachments of all persons in times of exigency, where immediate appeal cannot be made to the laws, and relief afforded


Mah
I believe in following the prophet.

I believe in following the Prophet too & he said, that the Lord said, that we are justified in defending ourselves against all evil laws & leaders IF relief isn't afforded us through the courts. So that means we can stand up to unconstitutional laws.

NGL,

You surely don't believe the Prophets wanted everyone to have just gone along with Hitler & helped him gather up the Jews into railroad cars & helped abuse & murder them since that was the law of the land? Would you really have done that?

We are told by Pres. Monson, who is the last word on it, that if we know of any form of abuse (to ourselves or others) going on that we have a responsibility to do something to stop it & not support it or we will share in the punishment for it. That would be true whether the abuse was from a person or leader or government.

“The church does not condone such heinous & vile conduct... Let the offender be brought to justice, to accountability, for his actions & receive professional treatment to curtail such wicked & devilish conduct. When you or I know of such conduct & fail to take action to eradicate it, we become part of the problem, we share part of the guilt, we share part of the punishment.”
Thomas S. Monson CR Oct. 1991
(He was speaking of child abuse in this quote, but coupled with Pres. Hinckleys many warnings about any & all abuse, it of course would apply accross the board to all abuse from any source.)

And their words are the last counsel on the subject.

Just because someone has enough Gadianton friends or enough money to buy their way into office doesn't mean they get the right to abuse us & we just have to take it.

Our civil leaders have no more right to abuse us & take away our rights than our neighbor, bishop or spouse. And we have just as much right & duty to stand up to abuse from 'civil leaders' as anyone else's abuse of us.

[shadow]

It's important to first understand the will of God. For example, D&C 82:22 tells us to "make unto yourselves friends with the mammon of unrighteousness, and they will not destroy you." Try as you might, you won't be friends with the government (mammon) by defying them. Of course the only person I've seen here that defies the United States to any degree has been CHH. Everyone else is just talk (hypocrites 8) ). It's served CHH well hasn't it??

Get with the program, the church program as revealed by up to date revelation! The patience of the saints etc. etc. Verse 23 is pretty cool.

wait. So it was ok to stand up against unrighteous laws in the 1800's but not today? But that scripture you gave was given in the 1800's.

seeing the actions of Prophets of God throughout time clearly shows your interpretation to be completely false. Your attitude mocks the servants of God that sacrificed so much for you. How disgustingly ungrateful.

Unless you somehow got your message to post from the spirit world or a federal prison you are a hypocrite. This is what I'm saying Mahonri. John Taylor spent some time hiding in exile, actually died in exile. Are you in hiding or are you just a hypocrite who likes to talk without any show? I'm calling you out bro! The Lord has seen fit to work a different way these days. Read verse 22 of section 88. It's the Lord speaking, not me. If you have a problem with it take it up with Him. Apparently the Lords anointed are following His counsel found in verse 22 (mostly to spite Col Flagg ) or they too would either be in prison, dead or in exile. The goverment is much more powerful these days than they were in John Taylors day. You'd think our leaders would be in worse shape than President Taylor

[sbsion]

hey, I know, let's hire a lawyer to answer the question

[Moss Man]

Great! Now I have another use for my 72 hour kit: take it with me as I follow orders to relocate to a FEMA camp.

[shadow]

Great! Now I have another use for my 72 hour kit: take it with me as I follow orders to relocate to a FEMA camp.

Do you file taxes? Do you pay a property tax? Do you register your car? Do you have a SS number? Do you have a drivers license? Do you pay social security and other payroll taxes? Are you a hypocrite? I don't ask that last question in a mean way either, but those of you who say you "defy" the government yet don't really defy them are you not a hypocrite? The church does not defy the government, at least not yet, the church works with the governments of the world so the purposes of God can be accomplished. Do you guys not see this??

[NoGreaterLove]

the church works with the governments of the world so the purposes of God can be accomplished. Do you guys not see this??

Thanks Shadow. At least someone else sees it. Rebellion against the government by refusing to obey it's law paints a bad light on the members of the church. We have to constantly assure other nations that we are not a religion of law breakers in order to establish the work in those countries. The work must go forward.

[Mark]

Great! Now I have another use for my 72 hour kit: take it with me as I follow orders to relocate to a FEMA camp.

Do you file taxes? Do you pay a property tax? Do you register your car? Do you have a SS number? Do you have a driver license? Do you pay social security and other payroll taxes? Are you a hypocrite? I don't ask that last question in a mean way either, but those of you who "defy" the government yet don't really defy them are you not a hypocrite? The church does not defy the government, at least not yet, the church works with the governments of the world so the purposes of God can be accomplished. Do you guys not see this??

Thank you Dolly. I hear a lot of big talkers here on this site from time to time blustering about open rebellion and anarchistic like threats against a wicked master yet so few ever walk that walk. I believe that the Prophets have been clear in encouraging the members to work within the system of govt that they live for any needed changes and not become a law unto themselves thru openly defying govt. laws and ordinances. I feel that is our line of safety at present and those who decide to expose themselves by open rebellion and disregard to civil authority will endanger themselves and their families in ways that they will regret. That behavior would not be supported by the church or any of its leadership.

[shadow]

I believe that the Prophets have been clear in encouraging the members to work within the system of govt that they live for any needed changes and not become a law unto themselves thru openly defying govt. laws and ordinances.

Good post my mayo lacking HCG infested partner in crime. Your post reminded me of what President Harold B. Lee once taught.
"Today we are constantly hearing from the unenlightened and misguided 8) ... that they have their agency to do as they please or to exercise their own self-will to determine what is law and order, what is right and wrong, or what is honor and virtue. When one sets himself up to make his own rules and presumes to know no law but his own, he is but echoing the plan of Satan."

[Moss Man]

Great! Now I have another use for my 72 hour kit: take it with me as I follow orders to relocate to a FEMA camp.

Do you file taxes? Do you pay a property tax? Do you register your car? Do you have a SS number? Do you have a driver license? Do you pay social security and other payroll taxes? Are you a hypocrite? I don't ask that last question in a mean way either, but those of you who "defy" the government yet don't really defy them are you not a hypocrite? The church does not defy the government, at least not yet, the church works with the governments of the world so the purposes of God can be accomplished. Do you guys not see this??

Thank you Dolly. I hear a lot of big talkers here on this site from time to time blustering about open rebellion and anarchistic like threats against a wicked master yet so few ever walk that walk. I believe that the Prophets have been clear in encouraging the members to work within the system of govt that they live for any needed changes and not become a law unto themselves thru openly defying govt. laws and ordinances. I feel that is our line of safety at present and those who decide to expose themselves by open rebellion and disregard to civil authority will endanger themselves and their families in ways that they will regret. That behavior would not be supported by the church or any of its leadership.

I made my statement because I am an independent thinker who looks at many things from different perspectives. Just because a law is on the books doesn't mean I don't take the time to ponder its reason for existing.

I see where you are coming from and in no way have I ever implied rebellion or that I'm a big talker. The Lord gives His church direction through the prophet and, at this time, it is more beneficial to do missionary and temple work than anything else.

I do work within the system. I write letters to my newspaper and local leaders and call senators and representatives when I dislike something. I'm trying to get the voice of the people in my city to vote out fluoridated drinking water. Furthermore, I vote for the best candidates.

I'm not sure you would ever know to what extent someone is "walking the walk" unless they were very unintelligent in writing, on an open forum like this, about what they were doing in order to challenge your taunt.

Now, here's your turn to "walk the walk": Will you attend FEMA University for a semester or two if you are given a scholarship and enrolled?

[shadow]

Now, here's your turn to "walk the walk": Will you attend FEMA University for a semester or two if you are given a scholarship and enrolled?

Like you I'm independant too. And no, I would not accept the scholarship to attend FEMA university It's important to pick our battles, FEMA camp is one I would pick. But that's all hypothetical anyway. If a FEMA camp were available, would it be a law to attend? I doubt it. But even if it is, I won't be pro-active and make a scene. I just won't go nor will I be around to be picked up.

[Moss Man]

Now, here's your turn to "walk the walk": Will you attend FEMA University for a semester or two if you are given a scholarship and enrolled?

Like you I'm independant too. And no, I would not accept the scholarship to attend FEMA university It's important to pick our battles, FEMA camp is one I would pick. But that's all hypothetical anyway. If a FEMA camp were available, would it be a law to attend? I doubt it. But even if it is, I won't be pro-active and make a scene. I just won't go nor will I be around to be picked up.

Being sent to a camp would probably be an act based on disobedience to a law, just as a police officer has authority to arrest law-breakers. The question is, do you analyze the law to see if it should be followed? What do you base your judgements on? If you submit to one and not the other then you are "echoing the Plan of Satan" because somebody in authority had to delegate that authority to whomever will be picking you up for "school".

[Rensai]

Now, here's your turn to "walk the walk": Will you attend FEMA University for a semester or two if you are given a scholarship and enrolled?

Like you I'm independant too. And no, I would not accept the scholarship to attend FEMA university It's important to pick our battles, FEMA camp is one I would pick. But that's all hypothetical anyway. If a FEMA camp were available, would it be a law to attend? I doubt it. But even if it is, I won't be pro-active and make a scene. I just won't go nor will I be around to be picked up.

So Shadow, it sounds to me like you are saying the same thing as the rest of us. There is a point where you will resist unconstitutional law. You say, when you face a choice between defying the law or going to a FEMA camp, you would flee and/or fight. That I think is exactly the point we've all been trying to make. I assume no one is posting here from prison so we can also infer that no one is talking about fighting back over taxes and such. Quit using that red herring, because it is not relevant. No one has posted at what point they would defy the law. That isn't the issue.

The bottom line is this; do you believe in absolute submission to law, even when it is clearly evil, or is their a point where you fight/flee? What that point is, is debatable, but I think its definitely there. NGL's posts seem to indicate that we obey any and all laws regardless and let the Lord deal with it. If you had been a Jew in Nazi Germany, would you fight/flee or submit to the law and die? If the government wants to lock you in a FEMA camp do you placidly accept or do you fight/flee? If they pass a law to disarm you, will you let them? Would you accept a draft to go kill iraqi's for 2-3 years?

I know what my own personal "lines in the sand" are. There is nothing hypocritical about choosing which battles to fight and which are not worth it.

“Satan is anxious to neutralize the inspired counsel of the Prophet and keep the priesthood off balance, ineffective and inert, using perverse reasoning. For example, he will argue, “There is no need to get involved in the fight for freedom –all you need to do is live the gospel.” This is a contradiction, because we cannot fully live the gospel and not be involved in the fight for freedom.” (Ezra Taft Benson, BYU speech, Oct 25, 1966).

This is still God's world. The forces of evil, working through some mortals, have made a mess of a good part of it. But it is still God's world. In due time, when each of us has had a chance to prove ourselves-including whether or not we are going to stand up for freedom—God will interject himself, and the final and eternal victory shall be for free agency. And then shall those complacent people on the sidelines, and those who took the wrong but temporarily popular course, lament their decisions. To the patriots I say this: Take that long eternal look. Stand up for freedom, no matter what the cost. Stand up and be counted. It can help to save your soul-and maybe your country." (Ezra Taft Benson, An Enemy Hath Done This, p. 62)

[Original_Intent]

NGL,

It is not often I disagree with you, but after some contemplation on the matter, I must.

If an unconstitutional law is passed, and even if it is upheld by a court, it is not I that have broken the law, but those legislators and those judges.

The legal course of action, if they wish to make a law that is against the Constitution is to amend the Constitution. If unjust laws are enacted thru the correct and legitimate process, then I agree with you, I am bound to live under those laws even if I disagree with them.

Executive Orders, though LONG accepted and enforced do not hold the decree of law.
Roe v Wade, though upheld as law, if I were a doctor I would never perform one, and the states have the right to make their own laws regarding abortion, and if directed to comply by the courts the correct action is to continue to enforce the STATE law.

The Constitution is the supreme law of the land, and it doesn;t really matter what any 9 black robes say to the contrary.
Again if a law is passed thru the legitimate process, I will conced to you I am morally bound to obey until told otherwise. But if you are saying we need to obey anytning that passes congress, and the reason is because you might go to jail or be fined, and bottom line is the government has the force of arms to enforce its edicts, then you are conceding that we live in a totalarian society and we have no rights whatsoever.

[shadow]

So Shadow, it sounds to me like you are saying the same thing as the rest of us. There is a point where you will resist unconstitutional law.

Sure there's a point for me, but that point is after enduring many smaller unconstitutional laws and waiting for current counsel or personal revelation to change. Look around the USA, we're in bondage in a huge way but the church is NOT being defiant... yet. When is the last time you heard a prophet say "I defy the United States" or anything similar? We either have a testimony of modern revelation or we don't. I don't know how people like Mahonri can sustain the living Prophet, any Prophet since he was born for that matter. He accuses me of mocking the servants of God and being "disgustingly ungrateful" when it's he who mocks the current servants of God and is disgustingly ungrateful for modern revelation. We have not been commanded to defy the USA today so 1- why do it and 2- why get after those that follow the current counsel of the church? When that revelation changes, then I'll follow the counsel at that time. But today the counsel is not to defy the government. I trust in the current revelations given to the church. I also trust that revelations can change, we don't call the brethren "living oracles" for nothing. It's great that Mosby can raise his right hand and sustain John Taylor. The problem is John Taylor is dead and has nothing to do with us . President Monson is the guy we raise our right hand to and he, as far as I can tell has not advised anyone to defy the USA, quite the contrary actually! Some people here were born about a century+ too late

[Mahonri]

I love it! I quote Prophets, saying nothing about anyone, and I am judgemental (on other threads).

Then those same people specifically attack me and (among other things) say I am not supporting "modern revelation".



The irony!

[Original_Intent]

So Shadow, it sounds to me like you are saying the same thing as the rest of us. There is a point where you will resist unconstitutional law.

Sure there's a point for me, but that point is after enduring many smaller unconstitutional laws and waiting for current counsel or personal revelation to change. Look around the USA, we're in bondage in a huge way but the church is NOT being defiant... yet. When is the last time you heard a prophet say "I defy the United States" or anything similar? We either have a testimony of modern revelation or we don't. I don't know how people like Mahonri can sustain the living Prophet, any Prophet since he was born for that matter. He accuses me of mocking the servants of God and being "disgustingly ungrateful" when it's he who mocks the current servants of God and is disgustingly ungrateful for modern revelation. We have not been commanded to defy the USA today so 1- why do it and 2- why get after those that follow the current counsel of the church? When that revelation changes, then I'll follow the counsel at that time. But today the counsel is not to defy the government. I trust in the current revelations given to the church. I also trust that revelations can change, we don't call the brethren "living oracles" for nothing. It's great that Mosby can raise his right hand and sustain John Taylor. The problem is John Taylor is dead and has nothing to do with us . President Monson is the guy we raise our right hand to and he, as far as I can tell has not advised anyone to defy the USA, quite the contrary actually! Some people here were born about a century+ too late

I am not trying to be mocking or coy, and I agree with you -to an extent. But otoh, should a German Mormon under Hitler have waited for the church to tell him to resist the unrighteous government? Did the Mormon's who did break the law to fight Nazism sin by doing so? It is not a rhetorical question. We have been told that we are not to support governments that do not maintain our God given rights - at what point, if any do we follow that counsel without specific instruction to do so? Do we obdeiently go to a FEMA camp if we have not heard from SLC that the time has come to resist tyranny? Can you not concede that it may be that there are ever things that it is incumbent on us to do that the church cannot or will not give official direction on? I will conced it is never something that I would do lightly - but are there circumstances where I would? You better believe it.

He who must be commanded in all things is an unwise and slothful servant. I am not applying it to you, Shadow, but I am applying it to the discussion, and I think it does apply.

[shadow]

I love it! I quote Prophets, saying nothing about anyone, and I am judgemental (on other threads) (It's the innuendo and your ignorance of modern revelation ).

Then those same people specifically attack me and (among other things) say I am not supporting "modern revelation".



The irony!

Modern revelation says to not defy the USA. You believe contrary.
Modern revelation says modern medicine is a blessing from God. You believe contrary.
Modern revelation says that the prophet and the president of the church are the same and God makes the choice. You believe contrary.

Irony indeed!

[Mahonri]

Pretty easy to win an argument when you claim the other guy is saying something he isn't.

Please recant your false accusations (false witness) against me.