I have thought long and hard on this, and am somewhat frustrated with myself because I am not expressing exactly my feeling. LittleLion has done a far better job of that. But I did think of an example this morning that I think demonstrates where I stand.
Let us say there was a draft instituded to raise troops for our current "war" with Afghanistan. I would die before a firing squad before reporting for such a draft. It is not a question of fear of death. It is the fact that this so-called war and every war since WW2 has not been a Constitutionally declared war. The law was not followed. And I would rather die defying tyranny at home than going to fight against it, supposedly, on the far side of the world, and in fact be building up an unjust and tyrannical empire. I would also die defending my sons' (or anyone else's sons, for that matter) right not to fight in any similar illegal war as well.
Now let us say Congress declares war on Afghanistan. At this point, there may be some question about the morality of the draft itself, but at least in the declaring of war THE LAW WAS FOLLOWED. In this case, even though i stil may not agree with the "cause" of the war, I am much more inclined to feel that I have some civic duty to report if drafted. Even if I disagree with the basis of the war, THAT is upon the heads of my elected representatives. So I am NOT advocating becoming "a law unto myself", but I am demanding that the law of the land be followed before "the state" has any claim upon me. Can you see the difference, and understand how important the distinction is?
Third example: The U.S. is invaded by an aggressor nation. At this point, in my opinion, the draft does not even come into question - I serve in whatever capacity possible to defend my country. In this scenario I would be ENCOURAGING both of my sons to do the same.
Now here is where I am going to lose some people: It is my feeling that the reins of power in this country have actually been usurped, through deception, murder, and secret combination, by THE ENEMIES of this country. This is very clearly laid out as being in progress in Ezra Taft Benson's book "An Enemy Hath Done This". This was the state of affairs 40 years ago. Anyone who has not read this book, I am sorry, but your comments are not welcome as I feel you likely are not informed enough to have an opinion.
So, the question becomes - am I upholding the law of the land if I submit to the enemies of the law of the land? No! And I have noticed that no one on the other side of the argument has addressed this point, they dance around it but never answer it. And I suspect it is because to address it they may have to wrestle with their preconceived notions of what is right and what is wrong. Or they may throw out more red herring arguments such as "what about if you were born in Russia or China?" Quite simply, I do not have to deal with hypotheticals, I have to deal with my circumstances in my country.
shadow wrote:I think he's agreed to disagree. Sometimes that's the best option.
He? I was quite sure we were talking to a woman! That is the best tact to take at this point I agree. Although I was serious when I said NGL scares me.
Original_Intent wrote: So, the question becomes - am I upholding the law of the land if I submit to the enemies of the law of the land? No! And I have noticed that no one on the other side of the argument has addressed this point, they dance around it but never answer it. And I suspect it is because to address it they may have to wrestle with their preconceived notions of what is right and what is wrong. Or they may throw out more red herring arguments such as "what about if you were born in Russia or China?" Quite simply, I do not have to deal with hypotheticals, I have to deal with my circumstances in my country.
Very well put OI very good. This is the reason that people like NGL scare me. They are locked into a paradigm and they refuse to look at anything else. This is a serious error because it precludes deeper more well rounded meanings in the scriptures. It is not all black and white and it never has been.
There is an early Prophet that said if there is ever a split in the 12 and the presidency then go with the majority. I believe we will see this very thing in our lifetimes. What if the Prophet and 2 of the 12 went one way and the other 12 went the other way. Would NGL still follow the prophet at all costs? I'm sure she/he would just because they are so closed minded. The same kind of people would sell out their own family to save their own neck. They would snitch on their neighbors and friends to the DHS. They would do just about anything without thinking because the Prophet said to do it. It's not all about the Prophet at all like NGL keeps preaching. It's all about how many times you go to the temple, how many nonmembers you fellowship, in other words how close you are to the spirit so the spirit can lead you every second of every day.
“We are going through what J. Reuben Clark, Jr., once termed the greatest propaganda campaign of all time. We cannot believe all we read, and what we can believe is not all of the same value. We must sift. We must learn by study and prayer.”
- Ezra Taft Benson, The Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson, p. 302
“The scriptures make clear that there was a great war in heaven, a struggle over the principle of freedom the right of choice. In the war in heaven, what would have been your reaction if someone had told you just to do what is right—there's no need to get involved in the fight for freedom? Of course, the war in heaven over free agency is now being waged here on earth, and there are those today who are saying ‘Look, don't get involved in the fight for freedom. Just live the gospel.’ That counsel is dangerous, self-contradictory, unsound.”
- Ezra Taft Benson, Conference Report, October 1966
“Brethren, if we had done our homework and were faithful, we could step forward at this time and help save this country. The fact that most of us are unprepared to do it is an indictment we will have to bear. The longer we wait, the heavier the chains, the deeper the blood, the more the persecution and the less we can carry out our God-given mandate and world-wide mission. The war in heaven is raging on earth today. Are you being neutralized in the battle?"
- Ezra Taft Benson, Conference Report, April 1965
“Any Christian constitutionalist who retreats from this battle jeopardizes his life here and hereafter. Seldom has so much responsibility hung on so few, so heavily; but our numbers are increasing, and we who have been warned have a responsibility to warn our neighbor.”
- Ezra Taft Benson, Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson, p. 591
“Of course the government has penetrated so much of our lives that one can hardly speak for freedom without being accused of being political. Some might even call the war in heaven a political struggle—certainly it was controversial. Yet the valiant entered it with Michael. Those who support only the popular principles of the gospel have their reward.”
- Ezra Taft Benson, Conference Report, April 1965
“In the war in heaven the devil advocated absolute eternal security at the sacrifice of our freedom. Although there is nothing more desirable to a Latter-day Saint than eternal security in God's presence…Today the devil as a wolf in a supposedly new suit of sheep's clothing is enticing some men, both in and out of the Church, to parrot his line by advocating planned government guaranteed security programs at the expense of our liberties. Latter-day Saints should be reminded how and why they voted as they did in heaven. If some have decided to change their vote they should repent—throw their support on the side of freedom—and cease promoting this subversion.”
- Ezra Taft Benson, Secret Combinations, Conference Report, October 1961
“…our stand for freedom is a most basic part of our religion; this stand helped get us to this earth, and our reaction to freedom in this life will have eternal consequences. Man has many duties, but he has no excuse that can compensate for his loss of liberty.”
- Ezra Taft Benson, Conference Report, October 1966
“Our great Constitution has been beaten and torn until now it hangs by a single thread, and that thread is our franchise to vote.”
- Ezra Taft Benson, Freeman Institute, Provo, Utah, 1976
“If America is destroyed, it may be by Americans who salute the flag, sing the national anthem, march in patriotic parades, cheer Fourth of July speakers — normally good Americans, but Americans who fail to comprehend what is required to keep our country strong and free — Americans who have been lulled away into a false security.”
- Ezra Taft Benson, Conference Report, April 1968
“Those who subscribe to this [totalitarian] philosophy stop at nothing to achieve their ends...force, trickery, lies, broken promises, mayhem, and individual and mass murder.”
- Ezra Taft Benson, Conference Report, October 1960
The con of the century – Federal Reserve made $9 trillion in short-term loans to only 18 financial institutions. Since 2000 the US dollar has fallen by 33 percent. The hidden cost of the bailouts. http://www.mybudget360.com/the-con-of-t ... 3-percent/
“I testify that wickedness is rapidly expanding in every segment of our society. It is more highly organized, more cleverly disguised, and more powerfully promoted than ever before. Secret combinations lusting for power, gain, and glory are flourishing. A secret combination that seeks to overthrow the freedom of all lands, nations, and countries is increasing its evil influence and control over America and the entire world.”
- Ezra Taft Benson, during the very same time that the world was celebrating the collapse of communism I Testify, Ensign, p. 87. November 1988
“Now we are assured that the Church will remain on the earth until the Lord comes again—but at what price? The Saints in the early days were assured that Zion would be established in Jackson County, but look at what their unfaithfulness cost them in bloodshed and delay.”
- Ezra Taft Benson
We have two economic worlds developing in the US. In one, you have a stock market that is bouncing back with many companies, especially large banks reporting extraordinary profits thanks to cheap loans from the Fed. In the other world, you have millions of Americans who have exhausted unemployment benefits and 1 out of 7 Americans on food stamps. Here in California it is expected that 454,000 will lose their benefits by year end if nothing is acted upon. Congress is a mess and we have people wanting to dole out money while at the same time, saying they want to reduce the deficit. Mathematically something has to give but the crony protection is coming at the expense of the many. Here in California we are not part of the recovery (at least at the moment we are not). Even though things seem to be on a short mend nationwide, anything in the state is temporary. Let us examine a few reasons why California will have a tougher time recovering than the nation in the upcoming year.
Reason #1 – Employment
The California unemployment rate still remains at 12.4 percent with recent October data released. This means the underemployment rate is up to 23 percent. No one is going to be buying houses when the economy is this bad. Jobs were added nationwide but California is still in a deep rut. Just look at the above chart and you can see how premature it is to call for a victory in the economy right now. On the contrary, it seems that the consumer shopping opiate has gotten people numb to the real numbers that are hitting in the market.
And remember how the Fed and all the political hacks were claiming that TARP was not going to cost us a cent? Well as it turns out, during the crisis the Fed lent out $9 trillion:
“(New York Times) At home, from March 2008 to May 2009, the Fed extended a cumulative total of nearly $9 trillion in short-term loans to 18 financial institutions under a credit program.
Previously, the Fed had only revealed that four financial firms had tapped the special lending program, and did not reveal their identities or the loan amounts.”
Good timing on the Fed’s behalf to release this report while people are bamboozled by the holiday shopping season. $9-freaking-trillion-dollars of cheap loans. How much of this cheap loan money did you get to see? The economy must be doing fantastic if the Fed had to lend this amount of money plus QE1, QE2, etc. As they say, don’t believe the hype.
Reason #2 – The Budget
The California budget is one giant festering mess. But let us enjoy the holidays before diving into this pile of crap. As it turns out, we are starring at a $25 billion hole:
“(SacBee) The overall $25.4 billion deficit consists of two parts. It includes a $6.1 billion deficit through June 30 that exists because state leaders relied on rosy assumptions in their record-late October budget package, according to the nonpartisan Legislative Analyst’s Office. It also includes a $19.3 billion deficit in the next 2011-12 fiscal year.”
Only two ways can solve this; cuts in programs (higher layoffs) or higher taxes. Either way, these are drags on the economy. The only “good” way to increase revenues is if people are earning money and filling up coffers. Do we see that happening? The unemployment rate would have to dip into the single digits rather quickly to get any noticeable changes for the state. I’m not sure how someone can look at a $25 billion gap and think things are healthy. California is still largely structured and reliant on a booming housing market.
Reason #3 – Housing
Things have sped up recently as well. In the last two months the sales rate for Southern California has imploded. What this means is lower prices for 2011. Two worlds and California is still largely in a recession by most sensible measures.
Reason #4 – Backlog of homes
And let us not forget the large shadow inventory in the state:
Non-distressed MLS homes for sale: 166,000
Distressed active properties (non-MLS): 291,000
You will always have a certain amount of distressed properties on the market. I was looking back at foreclosures and notice of defaults in healthier times and it was always the case that active MLS listings were 3 to 4 times the size of the distressed inventory. Having the distressed inventory larger than the active MLS is completely uncharacteristic. We can’t even talk about things being “healthy” until the active MLS data is higher than the non-MLS foreclosure pipeline.
From my perspective, it was last month’s report, just in front of the elections, that was the outlier. Note that we have had two full years of huge job losses in the private sector and now we are shifting to huge job losses in the public sector as huge and mounting deficits begin to strike all levels of government. Also note how once again the ADP report just flat out set expectations in the wrong direction.
The headline rates are artificially lowered by failing to recognize those who most certainly could and would work, but who are outside of their parameters. When we look at the table showing the “Alternate” Series, we can see that U-6, the measurement most closely resembling calculations of the past, seasonally unadjusted rate jumped from 15.9% to 16.3%, while the seasonally adjusted rate remained steady at 17%.
When you remove the L from the BLS data, you will find that the job situation has not improved, and that there are millions who are able to work full time but are not.
Note once again that Shadow Stat’s SGS data points to 22%+ unemployment:
Latter-day Saints should strictly obey the laws of the government in which they live. By our own declaration of faith we are committed to do so , for we declare to the world that “we believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.” (A of F 1:12.)
I guess I do not understand how people get around this clear statement. It is not talking about the Constitution of American it is talking about even Kings which we do not have. Why are we told to obey the laws of Governments in this statement if that is not what the Church is really saying?
I think there is wise reasoning behind this. When I see what the real conspiracy is doing it is encouraging people to break laws to over thrown all the governments of the world, not follow the rules. The Lord sees the big picture and the what the real conspiracy has planned. What we are being show by the world as the conspiracy is not the conspiracy. It is far more than what most understand it to be.
The adversary wants us to turn against America and our Constitution. He will do it by teaching some that the original constitution is evil, he will tell others that it once was great but now the constitutional government is evil. Either way he wins. He has pawns to help over throw it. What I hear on this site is non-stop hate of the American Government because it has been corrupted. On Liberal sites all I hear is hate of American because the Constitution was an document that has huge errors. All I hear from the new age is the need to overthrown American by all means possible so that their new spirituality (the spirituality of the devil) rebuild after the adversary has gotten EVERYONE to go against all the laws of American and the whole world and turned it into anarchy which we are headed for. Once that is done then he can raise his real one world religions and one wold government that most people thought the were fighting against, but really were just pawns fight for it.
This is my paradigm and why I say we follow the counsel to live within the laws of each country members live in and not become part of the anarchy that is to come that will overthrow the world.
“We are going through what J. Reuben Clark, Jr., once termed the greatest propaganda campaign of all time. We cannot believe all we read, and what we can believe is not all of the same value. We must sift. We must learn by study and prayer.”
- Ezra Taft Benson, The Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson, p. 302
“The scriptures make clear that there was a great war in heaven, a struggle over the principle of freedom the right of choice. In the war in heaven, what would have been your reaction if someone had told you just to do what is right—there's no need to get involved in the fight for freedom? Of course, the war in heaven over free agency is now being waged here on earth, and there are those today who are saying ‘Look, don't get involved in the fight for freedom. Just live the gospel.’ That counsel is dangerous, self-contradictory, unsound.”
- Ezra Taft Benson, Conference Report, October 1966
“Brethren, if we had done our homework and were faithful, we could step forward at this time and help save this country. The fact that most of us are unprepared to do it is an indictment we will have to bear. The longer we wait, the heavier the chains, the deeper the blood, the more the persecution and the less we can carry out our God-given mandate and world-wide mission. The war in heaven is raging on earth today. Are you being neutralized in the battle?"
- Ezra Taft Benson, Conference Report, April 1965
“Any Christian constitutionalist who retreats from this battle jeopardizes his life here and hereafter. Seldom has so much responsibility hung on so few, so heavily; but our numbers are increasing, and we who have been warned have a responsibility to warn our neighbor.”
- Ezra Taft Benson, Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson, p. 591
“Of course the government has penetrated so much of our lives that one can hardly speak for freedom without being accused of being political. Some might even call the war in heaven a political struggle—certainly it was controversial. Yet the valiant entered it with Michael. Those who support only the popular principles of the gospel have their reward.”
- Ezra Taft Benson, Conference Report, April 1965
“In the war in heaven the devil advocated absolute eternal security at the sacrifice of our freedom. Although there is nothing more desirable to a Latter-day Saint than eternal security in God's presence…Today the devil as a wolf in a supposedly new suit of sheep's clothing is enticing some men, both in and out of the Church, to parrot his line by advocating planned government guaranteed security programs at the expense of our liberties. Latter-day Saints should be reminded how and why they voted as they did in heaven. If some have decided to change their vote they should repent—throw their support on the side of freedom—and cease promoting this subversion.”
- Ezra Taft Benson, Secret Combinations, Conference Report, October 1961
“…our stand for freedom is a most basic part of our religion; this stand helped get us to this earth, and our reaction to freedom in this life will have eternal consequences. Man has many duties, but he has no excuse that can compensate for his loss of liberty.”
- Ezra Taft Benson, Conference Report, October 1966
“Our great Constitution has been beaten and torn until now it hangs by a single thread, and that thread is our franchise to vote.”
- Ezra Taft Benson, Freeman Institute, Provo, Utah, 1976
“If America is destroyed, it may be by Americans who salute the flag, sing the national anthem, march in patriotic parades, cheer Fourth of July speakers — normally good Americans, but Americans who fail to comprehend what is required to keep our country strong and free — Americans who have been lulled away into a false security.”
- Ezra Taft Benson, Conference Report, April 1968
“Those who subscribe to this [totalitarian] philosophy stop at nothing to achieve their ends...force, trickery, lies, broken promises, mayhem, and individual and mass murder.”
- Ezra Taft Benson, Conference Report, October 1960
The con of the century – Federal Reserve made $9 trillion in short-term loans to only 18 financial institutions. Since 2000 the US dollar has fallen by 33 percent. The hidden cost of the bailouts. http://www.mybudget360.com/the-con-of-t ... 3-percent/
“I testify that wickedness is rapidly expanding in every segment of our society. It is more highly organized, more cleverly disguised, and more powerfully promoted than ever before. Secret combinations lusting for power, gain, and glory are flourishing. A secret combination that seeks to overthrow the freedom of all lands, nations, and countries is increasing its evil influence and control over America and the entire world.”
- Ezra Taft Benson, during the very same time that the world was celebrating the collapse of communism I Testify, Ensign, p. 87. November 1988
“Now we are assured that the Church will remain on the earth until the Lord comes again—but at what price? The Saints in the early days were assured that Zion would be established in Jackson County, but look at what their unfaithfulness cost them in bloodshed and delay.”
- Ezra Taft Benson
We have two economic worlds developing in the US. In one, you have a stock market that is bouncing back with many companies, especially large banks reporting extraordinary profits thanks to cheap loans from the Fed. In the other world, you have millions of Americans who have exhausted unemployment benefits and 1 out of 7 Americans on food stamps. Here in California it is expected that 454,000 will lose their benefits by year end if nothing is acted upon. Congress is a mess and we have people wanting to dole out money while at the same time, saying they want to reduce the deficit. Mathematically something has to give but the crony protection is coming at the expense of the many. Here in California we are not part of the recovery (at least at the moment we are not). Even though things seem to be on a short mend nationwide, anything in the state is temporary. Let us examine a few reasons why California will have a tougher time recovering than the nation in the upcoming year.
Reason #1 – Employment
The California unemployment rate still remains at 12.4 percent with recent October data released. This means the underemployment rate is up to 23 percent. No one is going to be buying houses when the economy is this bad. Jobs were added nationwide but California is still in a deep rut. Just look at the above chart and you can see how premature it is to call for a victory in the economy right now. On the contrary, it seems that the consumer shopping opiate has gotten people numb to the real numbers that are hitting in the market.
And remember how the Fed and all the political hacks were claiming that TARP was not going to cost us a cent? Well as it turns out, during the crisis the Fed lent out $9 trillion:
“(New York Times) At home, from March 2008 to May 2009, the Fed extended a cumulative total of nearly $9 trillion in short-term loans to 18 financial institutions under a credit program.
Previously, the Fed had only revealed that four financial firms had tapped the special lending program, and did not reveal their identities or the loan amounts.”
Good timing on the Fed’s behalf to release this report while people are bamboozled by the holiday shopping season. $9-freaking-trillion-dollars of cheap loans. How much of this cheap loan money did you get to see? The economy must be doing fantastic if the Fed had to lend this amount of money plus QE1, QE2, etc. As they say, don’t believe the hype.
Reason #2 – The Budget
The California budget is one giant festering mess. But let us enjoy the holidays before diving into this pile of crap. As it turns out, we are starring at a $25 billion hole:
“(SacBee) The overall $25.4 billion deficit consists of two parts. It includes a $6.1 billion deficit through June 30 that exists because state leaders relied on rosy assumptions in their record-late October budget package, according to the nonpartisan Legislative Analyst’s Office. It also includes a $19.3 billion deficit in the next 2011-12 fiscal year.”
Only two ways can solve this; cuts in programs (higher layoffs) or higher taxes. Either way, these are drags on the economy. The only “good” way to increase revenues is if people are earning money and filling up coffers. Do we see that happening? The unemployment rate would have to dip into the single digits rather quickly to get any noticeable changes for the state. I’m not sure how someone can look at a $25 billion gap and think things are healthy. California is still largely structured and reliant on a booming housing market.
Reason #3 – Housing
Things have sped up recently as well. In the last two months the sales rate for Southern California has imploded. What this means is lower prices for 2011. Two worlds and California is still largely in a recession by most sensible measures.
Reason #4 – Backlog of homes
And let us not forget the large shadow inventory in the state:
Non-distressed MLS homes for sale: 166,000
Distressed active properties (non-MLS): 291,000
You will always have a certain amount of distressed properties on the market. I was looking back at foreclosures and notice of defaults in healthier times and it was always the case that active MLS listings were 3 to 4 times the size of the distressed inventory. Having the distressed inventory larger than the active MLS is completely uncharacteristic. We can’t even talk about things being “healthy” until the active MLS data is higher than the non-MLS foreclosure pipeline.
From my perspective, it was last month’s report, just in front of the elections, that was the outlier. Note that we have had two full years of huge job losses in the private sector and now we are shifting to huge job losses in the public sector as huge and mounting deficits begin to strike all levels of government. Also note how once again the ADP report just flat out set expectations in the wrong direction.
The headline rates are artificially lowered by failing to recognize those who most certainly could and would work, but who are outside of their parameters. When we look at the table showing the “Alternate” Series, we can see that U-6, the measurement most closely resembling calculations of the past, seasonally unadjusted rate jumped from 15.9% to 16.3%, while the seasonally adjusted rate remained steady at 17%.
When you remove the L from the BLS data, you will find that the job situation has not improved, and that there are millions who are able to work full time but are not.
Note once again that Shadow Stat’s SGS data points to 22%+ unemployment:
I agree with all the President Benson said. I also agree that we are to still maintain being law biding citizens while fighting for the truth in every country the members are in. Why is that such a wrong idea?????????
Re: Submission to secular authority.
Posted: December 3rd, 2010, 2:29 pm
by Jason
Rosabella wrote:
Latter-day Saints should strictly obey the laws of the government in which they live. By our own declaration of faith we are committed to do so , for we declare to the world that “we believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.” (A of F 1:12.)
I guess I do not understand how people get around this clear statement. It is not talking about the Constitution of American it is talking about even Kings which we do not have. Why are we told to obey the laws of Governments in this statement if that is not what the Church is really saying?
I think there is wise reasoning behind this. When I see what the real conspiracy is doing it is encouraging people to break laws to over thrown all the governments of the world, not follow the rules. The Lord sees the big picture and the what the real conspiracy has planned. What we are being show by the world as the conspiracy is not the conspiracy. It is far more than what most understand it to be.
The adversary wants us to turn against America and our Constitution. He will do it by teaching some that the original constitution is evil, he will tell others that it once was great but now the constitutional government is evil. Either way he wins. He has pawns to help over throw it. What I hear on this site is non-stop hate of the American Government because it has been corrupted. On Liberal sites all I hear is hate of American because the Constitution was an document that has huge errors. All I hear from the new age is the need to overthrown American by all means possible so that their new spirituality (the spirituality of the devil) rebuild after the adversary has gotten EVERYONE to go against all the laws of American and the whole world and turned it into anarchy which we are headed for. Once that is done then he can raise his real one world religions and one wold government that most people thought the were fighting against, but really were just pawns fight for it.
This is my paradigm and why I say we follow the counsel to live within the laws of each country members live in and not become part of the anarchy that is to come that will overthrow the world.
Define law....
Now examine your statement again. The Constitution is the foundation of the laws of this government.....or what was once our government. So do you choose to follow the gadianton's laws....or the laws that were assisted in their establishment (Constitution) by God?
What about Nephi/Laban....and the rule of law?
Brings to mind the story of a General Authority who was pulled over for speeding and told the officer to write two tickets because he would be in an equal hurry while while on the return trip.
Re: Submission to secular authority.
Posted: December 3rd, 2010, 2:37 pm
by Jason
Rosabella wrote:I agree with all the President Benson said. I also agree that we are to still maintain being law biding citizens while fighting for the truth in every country the members are in. Why is that such a wrong idea?????????
Which laws are you going to abide by?
Re: Submission to secular authority.
Posted: December 3rd, 2010, 2:44 pm
by Rosabella
Mummy wrote:
Rosabella wrote:
Latter-day Saints should strictly obey the laws of the government in which they live. By our own declaration of faith we are committed to do so , for we declare to the world that “we believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.” (A of F 1:12.)
I guess I do not understand how people get around this clear statement. It is not talking about the Constitution of American it is talking about even Kings which we do not have. Why are we told to obey the laws of Governments in this statement if that is not what the Church is really saying?
I think there is wise reasoning behind this. When I see what the real conspiracy is doing it is encouraging people to break laws to over thrown all the governments of the world, not follow the rules. The Lord sees the big picture and the what the real conspiracy has planned. What we are being show by the world as the conspiracy is not the conspiracy. It is far more than what most understand it to be.
The adversary wants us to turn against America and our Constitution. He will do it by teaching some that the original constitution is evil, he will tell others that it once was great but now the constitutional government is evil. Either way he wins. He has pawns to help over throw it. What I hear on this site is non-stop hate of the American Government because it has been corrupted. On Liberal sites all I hear is hate of American because the Constitution was an document that has huge errors. All I hear from the new age is the need to overthrown American by all means possible so that their new spirituality (the spirituality of the devil) rebuild after the adversary has gotten EVERYONE to go against all the laws of American and the whole world and turned it into anarchy which we are headed for. Once that is done then he can raise his real one world religions and one wold government that most people thought the were fighting against, but really were just pawns fight for it.
This is my paradigm and why I say we follow the counsel to live within the laws of each country members live in and not become part of the anarchy that is to come that will overthrow the world.
Define law....
Laws that keep mankind out of anarchy. Which is what the Adversary is trying to cause world wide. We are to educate and teach correct principles without breaking laws, rules whatever you want to call them within the countries we reside. It is the only why to work in this evil corrupt world. Until we are able to create Zion and brake from the world we have to live within the laws of the world to continue the mission of the Church. Our Church has not told us to brake laws and go to jail. If you do that you can be excommunicated. Look at all the people that went to jail over tax evasion. Was that really worth it? did it really help ANYONE no. So they took a stand, fine they took a stand but at what cost? They can no longer bring souls to Christ except in jail. The Church has told us not to take that path, why is it that so many on hear admire those that did do that?
Dallin H. Oaks, "Our Strengths Can Become Our Downfall", Liahona, May 1995, 10
Not Really Following the Prophet
A related distortion is seen in the practice of those who select a few sentences from the teachings of a prophet and use them to support their political agenda or other personal purposes. In doing so, they typically ignore the contrary implications of other prophetic words, or even the clear example of the prophet’s own actions. For example, I have corresponded with several Church members who sought to use something President Ezra Taft Benson was quoted as saying as a basis for refusing to file an income tax return or to pay income taxes. UAdd a Note
I have tried to persuade these persons that their interpretation cannot be what President Benson intended, because all who have held that sacred office, as well as all of the other General Authorities, have faithfully filed their income tax returns and paid the taxes required by law. The servants of God are under the Master’s commands to follow him and to be examples to the flock (see 1 Tim. 4:12; 1 Pet. 5:3). We should interpret their words in the light of their works. To wrest the words of a prophet to support a private agenda, political or financial or otherwise, is to try to manipulate the prophet, not to follow him.
All-Consuming Patriotism
Love of country is surely a strength, but carried to excess it can become the cause of spiritual downfall. There are some citizens whose patriotism is so intense and so all-consuming that it seems to override every other responsibility, including family and Church. I caution those patriots who are participating in or provisioning private armies and making private preparations for armed conflict. Their excessive zeal for one aspect of patriotism is causing them to risk spiritual downfall as they withdraw from the society of the Church and from the governance of those civil authorities to whom our 12th article of faith [A of F 1:12] makes all of us subject.
Neal A. Maxwell, "Three Jaredites: Contrasting Contemporaries", Ensign, Aug. 1978, 6
It must have torn at Ether’s emotions to see the people he loved move relentlessly toward anarchy. This was actual physical and political anarchy. Eventually, the situation deteriorated into one in which “every man with his band [was] fighting for that which he desired.” (Ether 13:25.) Anarchy was the “order” of the day! That strange and sad state is in some ways like that foreseen by Orson Pratt which could befall our latter-day America and bring circumstances of great unrest and strife among factions—with people seeking refuge across the landscape of this beloved land. (See Masterful Discourses and Writings of Orson Pratt, Bookcraft, Inc., 1962, p. 156.)
This is what I fear we are headed to. When we disregard the laws of our country. Everyone has a different opinion on what laws are right and what laws are wrong in the eyes of God, what ones are worth fighting over and what ones are not. If all people feel free to break any one law they feel to be justified in breaking it only leaves Anarchy.
Re: Submission to secular authority.
Posted: December 3rd, 2010, 2:57 pm
by Jason
Rosabella wrote:
Mummy wrote:Define law....
Laws that keep mankind out of anarchy.
So do you support the government in its efforts that will ultimately result in anarchy (socialistic practices)?
Rosabella wrote:Which is what the Adversary is trying to cause world wide. We are to educate and teach correct principles without braking laws, rules whatever you want to call them within the countries we reside. It is the only why to work in this evil corrupt world. Until we are able to create Zion and brake from the world we have to live within the laws of the world to continue the mission of the Church. Our Church has not told us to brake laws and go to jail. If you do that you can be excommunicated.
How did that story go again (we discussed a while back on here) of the German youth who were excommunicated and executed for refusing Nazism? Weren't their memberships later restored (posthumous)?
Isn't the whole point of this life about making decisions? When presented with two choices....
Rosabella wrote:Look at all the people that went to jail over tax evasion. Was that really worth it? did it really help ANYONE no. So they took a stand, fine they took a stand but at what cost? They can no longer bring souls to Christ except in jail. The Church has told us not to take that path, why is it that so many on hear admire those that did do that?
Why was Joseph Smith in and out of jail? Why did he evade the law at some points....and submit at others?
Rosabella wrote:Dallin H. Oaks, "Our Strengths Can Become Our Downfall", Liahona, May 1995, 10
Not Really Following the Prophet
A related distortion is seen in the practice of those who select a few sentences from the teachings of a prophet and use them to support their political agenda or other personal purposes. In doing so, they typically ignore the contrary implications of other prophetic words, or even the clear example of the prophet’s own actions. For example, I have corresponded with several Church members who sought to use something President Ezra Taft Benson was quoted as saying as a basis for refusing to file an income tax return or to pay income taxes. UAdd a Note
I have tried to persuade these persons that their interpretation cannot be what President Benson intended, because all who have held that sacred office, as well as all of the other General Authorities, have faithfully filed their income tax returns and paid the taxes required by law. The servants of God are under the Master’s commands to follow him and to be examples to the flock (see 1 Tim. 4:12; 1 Pet. 5:3). We should interpret their words in the light of their works. To wrest the words of a prophet to support a private agenda, political or financial or otherwise, is to try to manipulate the prophet, not to follow him.
All-Consuming Patriotism
Love of country is surely a strength, but carried to excess it can become the cause of spiritual downfall. There are some citizens whose patriotism is so intense and so all-consuming that it seems to override every other responsibility, including family and Church. I caution those patriots who are participating in or provisioning private armies and making private preparations for armed conflict. Their excessive zeal for one aspect of patriotism is causing them to risk spiritual downfall as they withdraw from the society of the Church and from the governance of those civil authorities to whom our 12th article of faith [A of F 1:12] makes all of us subject.
Is anyone on here advocating the provision of private armies? And yes it does appear some lines are being drawn in the sand....perhaps leading to the fulfillment of this prophecy -
"The way ahead is dark and dreary and dreadful. There will yet be martyrs; the doors in Carthage shall again enclose the innocent. We have not been promised that the trials and evils of the world will entirely pass us by.”
“This is the great day of Satan’s power. Gadianton robbers fill the judgment seats in many nations. For those who finish their journey to Mount Zion, to stand with the Lamb, the way ahead is dark and dreary and dreadful. Our worst persecution is NOT behind us. The doors of Carthage shall again enclose the innocent. We shall yet weep more tears for Zion than we have ever known before.”
- Elder Bruce R. McConkie, October 1980 general conference
Neal A. Maxwell, "Three Jaredites: Contrasting Contemporaries", Ensign, Aug. 1978, 6
It must have torn at Ether’s emotions to see the people he loved move relentlessly toward anarchy. This was actual physical and political anarchy. Eventually, the situation deteriorated into one in which “every man with his band [was] fighting for that which he desired.” (Ether 13:25.) Anarchy was the “order” of the day! That strange and sad state is in some ways like that foreseen by Orson Pratt which could befall our latter-day America and bring circumstances of great unrest and strife among factions—with people seeking refuge across the landscape of this beloved land. (See Masterful Discourses and Writings of Orson Pratt, Bookcraft, Inc., 1962, p. 156.)
This is what I fear we are headed to. When we disregard the laws of our country. Everyone has a different opinion on what laws are right and what laws are wrong in the eyes of God, what ones are worth fighting over and what ones are not. If all people feel free to break any one law they feel to be justified in breaking it only leaves Anarchy.
Not just Ether....but also Nephi (and his band of 2000 who first saw the Savior in His visit to America)....and also the foretelling of our story!
I tend to side with LukeAir when it comes to the writings of Orson Pratt....
Re: Submission to secular authority.
Posted: December 3rd, 2010, 3:08 pm
by Jason
You and I have heard all our lives that the time may come when the Constitution may hang by a thread. I do not know whether it is a thread, or a small rope by which it now hangs, but I do know that whether it shall live or die is now in the balance.
- J. Reuben Clark, Jr., Conference Report, October 1942, p. 58
.....keep in mind that was 1942....
“Our great Constitution has been beaten and torn until now it hangs by a single thread, and that thread is our franchise to vote.”
-Ezra Taft Benson, 1976, Freeman Institute, Provo, Utah
“If American freedom is lost, if America is destroyed, if our blood-bought freedom is surrendered, it will be because of Americans. . . . The facts are clear. Our problem centers in Washington, D.C. And this applies to the administration of both political parties”
- Ezra Taft Benson, Conference Report, April 1968, pp. 50–52
“I testify that wickedness is rapidly expanding in every segment of our society. It is more highly organized, more cleverly disguised, and more powerfully promoted than ever before. Secret combinations lusting for power, gain, and glory are flourishing. A secret combination that seeks to overthrow the freedom of all lands, nations, and countries is increasing its evil influence and control over America and the entire world.”
- Ezra Taft Benson, I Testify, Ensign, p. 87. November 1988
Re: Submission to secular authority.
Posted: December 3rd, 2010, 3:08 pm
by Rosabella
I ask this:
What Laws are all of you breaking today? What laws do you feel you are allowed by God to break? Not ones in the future but ones today?
Since some of you say we SHOULD break laws that are not of God I want to know what ones you are breaking now. That makes you more inline with God.
Re: Submission to secular authority.
Posted: December 3rd, 2010, 3:12 pm
by shadow
Rosabella wrote:I ask this:
What Laws are all of you braking today? What laws do you feel you are allowed by God to brake? Not ones in the future but ones today?
I don't drink milk and in Utah that's against the law!
Re: Submission to secular authority.
Posted: December 3rd, 2010, 3:15 pm
by Jason
Rosabella wrote:I ask this:
What Laws are all of you braking today? What laws do you feel you are allowed by God to brake? Not ones in the future but ones today?
Personally I can't think of any right off hand.....nor would I probably admit to such in this medium if I did. I pay my taxes (though I try to stick as close to the letter of that 1500+ page 4th branch of government law as possible - every single write-off I can come up with). I'm not preparing to build any private armies....woefully inadequate in my own personal preparedness inventory.
I would exercise my right to dissent and buy and drink raw milk, and other things of similar nature. And I will confess I have a heavy foot at times.
I am ultimately reliant on the Savior to break the chains of the adversary and think it impossible for men to do it in the strength of their own flesh. I hope and pray the judgments will pour forth as rapidly as possible and level the playing field - spiritually, economically, and politically!
Re: Submission to secular authority.
Posted: December 3rd, 2010, 3:15 pm
by Rosabella
shadow wrote:
Rosabella wrote:I ask this:
What Laws are all of you braking today? What laws do you feel you are allowed by God to brake? Not ones in the future but ones today?
I don't drink milk and in Utah that's against the law!
Thanks for the laugh. Though from my experience I get more heat from drinking milk then not from drinking milk. I thought the higher law was NOT to drink it I guess you live by that higher law huh
Re: Submission to secular authority.
Posted: December 3rd, 2010, 3:17 pm
by Rosabella
Mummy wrote:
Rosabella wrote:I ask this:
What Laws are all of you braking today? What laws do you feel you are allowed by God to brake? Not ones in the future but ones today?
Personally I can't think of any right off hand.....nor would I probably admit to such in this medium if I did. I pay my taxes (though I try to stick as close to the letter of that 1500+ page 4th branch of government law as possible - every single write-off I can come up with). I'm not preparing to build any private armies....woefully inadequate in my own personal preparedness inventory.
I would exercise my right to dissent and buy and drink raw milk, and other things of similar nature. And I will confess I have a heavy foot at times.
I am ultimately reliant on the Savior to break the chains of the adversary and think it impossible for men to do it in the strength of their own flesh. I hope and pray the judgments will pour forth as rapidly as possible and level the playing field - spiritually, economically, and politically!
Ok so right now there really are not any laws we NEED to break? Then I am more on the same page as you. For our Church is not at this time suggesting we break any laws. In the past the Lord overruled laws made by man, today we abide by those. That is all I am saying. Well that change most likely, but today we abide by laws. So what is the big issue then.....just what we think will happen in the future?
Re: Submission to secular authority.
Posted: December 3rd, 2010, 3:24 pm
by Jason
Rosabella wrote:
Mummy wrote:
Rosabella wrote:I ask this:
What Laws are all of you braking today? What laws do you feel you are allowed by God to brake? Not ones in the future but ones today?
Personally I can't think of any right off hand.....nor would I probably admit to such in this medium if I did. I pay my taxes (though I try to stick as close to the letter of that 1500+ page 4th branch of government law as possible - every single write-off I can come up with). I'm not preparing to build any private armies....woefully inadequate in my own personal preparedness inventory.
I would exercise my right to dissent and buy and drink raw milk, and other things of similar nature. And I will confess I have a heavy foot at times.
I am ultimately reliant on the Savior to break the chains of the adversary and think it impossible for men to do it in the strength of their own flesh. I hope and pray the judgments will pour forth as rapidly as possible and level the playing field - spiritually, economically, and politically!
Ok so right now there really are not any laws we NEED to brake? Then I am more on the same page as you. For our Church is not at this time suggesting we brake any laws. In the past the Lord overruled laws made by man, today we abide by those. That is all I am saying. Well that change most likely, but today we abide by laws. So what is the big issue then.....just what we think will happen in the future?
Well let's call a spade a spade and say that it is impossible to see any kind of a positive result from rebellious acts at this point in time! (Please enlighten me if anyone knows otherwise) Hence the current counsel by the chain of command.
Sure we can attempt to educate, exercise our franchise or right to vote, complain, whine, etc....but the reality of doing anything that is going to change the course is naught! Hence the need for divine intervention and the upset of gadianton's power base. That said, we must choose the right....or choose to follow the course of liberty....or even to a greater degree the divine counsel of our Father in Heaven's will manifested through the Spirit. That may entail some patience in slavery or choices which put us at odds with the powers that be or majority (leading to us being cast into prison - harsher slavery). Who knows.....
Re: Submission to secular authority.
Posted: December 3rd, 2010, 3:28 pm
by Original_Intent
Hate speech laws that you MAY be prosecuted for saying homosexuality is sin.
Anything beyond that I must exercise my 5th amendment rights against self-incrimination. Suffice it to say, any similar laws that defy the law of the land regarding 1st amendment rights or other rights clearly defined in the bill of rights - I don't go out of my way to DISOBEY, but I feel they may be disregarded.
This is in response to rosabella's query of current laws which we are breaking or hypothetically may be breaking. And it is breaking, not braking. Braking is what you do to decelerate a vehicle.
Re: Submission to secular authority.
Posted: December 3rd, 2010, 3:30 pm
by Rosabella
Maybe I should not post on these threads. I just will go back to exposing the new age as Lucifer's counterfeit spirituality and its plans for one world government and religion which is a bit different than NWO, and stay out of these debates. I just feel they tend to go in circles. I am not sure if it is because people really think differently or the way we express it via forums does not communicate it correctly.
Re: Submission to secular authority.
Posted: December 3rd, 2010, 3:32 pm
by Jason
Rosabella wrote:Maybe I should not post on these threads. I just will go back to exposing the new age as Lucifer's counterfeit spirituality and its plans for one world government and religion which is a bit different than NWO, and stay out of these debates. I just feel they tend to go in circles. I am not sure if it is because people really think differently or the way we express it via forums does not communicate it correctly.
Mummy wrote:
Well let's call a spade a spade and say that it is impossible to see any kind of a positive result from rebellious acts at this point in time! (Please enlighten me if anyone knows otherwise) Hence the current counsel by the chain of command.
Sure we can attempt to educate, exercise our franchise or right to vote, complain, whine, etc....but the reality of doing anything that is going to change the course is naught! Hence the need for divine intervention and the upset of gadianton's power base. That said, we must choose the right....or choose to follow the course of liberty....or even to a greater degree the divine counsel of our Father in Heaven's will manifested through the Spirit. That may entail some patience in slavery or choices which put us at odds with the powers that be or majority (leading to us being cast into prison - harsher slavery). Who knows.....
I think I am understanding what you are saying and agree.
Re: Submission to secular authority.
Posted: December 3rd, 2010, 4:03 pm
by Rosabella
Original_Intent wrote:
And it is breaking, not braking. Braking is what you do to decelerate a vehicle.
This is why I have asked for assistance in editing my site LOL Thanks for the correction. If my word processor does not reject it, it gets posted....
That is the best tact to take at this point I agree. Although I was serious when I said NGL scares me. 
I guess you live by that higher law huh