LDS Freedom Forum

Rosabella wrote:We should follow the Church's example and its direction at this time regarding following the laws of the land in-which we live. If you believe different then it is the Church that you disagree with.

We are not in the future yet with all these scary scenarios, therefore they are not relevant yet. Be sure the Church will change its stand on issues once they become issues. But for now we are told to follow the laws of the land.

The law of the land is the Constitution. Any legislation that does not meet Constitutional muster is not the law of the land. Do you agree or disagree with that? Does the Church tell us, obviously here in the U.S., to obey unconstitutitional legislation? Last I heard they said to uphold the Constitution. You cannot both support the Constitution and support legislation that disregards the Constitution. So which is it? Again, I hear you and NGL seeming to say we have to comply with whatever "government" says. Am I misunderstanding or is that what you are saying?

Rosabella wrote:We should follow the Church's example and its direction at this time regarding following the laws of the land in-which we live. If you believe different then it is the Church that you disagree with.

We are not in the future yet with all these scary scenarios, therefore they are not relevant yet. Be sure the Church will change its stand on issues once they become issues. But for now we are told to follow the laws of the land.

Rosabella, Rosabella, Rosabella..... I love your website and your seminars I have been to. Your awesome! The law of the land in which we live is the Constitution according to Christ himself. Not the codes, statutes and whatever else man wants to throw at us. This is a satanic government as we know, it is run by satan himself as far as the Lord will permit him. I quoted a Prophet saying these things these are not my words. If you want to believe that the law of the land is not the constitution but truly is all the other edicts of man then thats your choice, you cannot believe in both because they are contradictory and Christ does not support the others, only the constitution. So, when the Church says follow the laws of the land they are saying follow the Constitution. Being subject to the powers that be does not mean giving up the constitution. When president Bush called the Constitution just a G** D*** piece of paper, that was satan talking, and telling everyone that the Constitution is not the law of the land. If you want to follow satan that's your choice. I choose the follow Christ and the Constitution.

LittleLion wrote:

Rosabella wrote:We should follow the Church's example and its direction at this time regarding following the laws of the land in-which we live. If you believe different then it is the Church that you disagree with.

We are not in the future yet with all these scary scenarios, therefore they are not relevant yet. Be sure the Church will change its stand on issues once they become issues. But for now we are told to follow the laws of the land.

Rosabella, Rosabella, Rosabella..... I love your website and your seminars I have been to. Your awesome! The law of the land in which we live is the Constitution according to Christ himself. Not the codes, statutes and whatever else man wants to throw at us. This is a satanic government as we know, it is run by satan himself as far as the Lord will permit him. I quoted a Prophet saying these things these are not my words. If you want to believe that the law of the land is not the constitution but truly is all the other edicts of man then thats your choice, you cannot believe in both because they are contradictory and Christ does not support the others, only the constitution. So, when the Church says follow the laws of the land they are saying follow the Constitution. Being subject to the powers that be does not mean giving up the constitution. When president Bush called the Constitution just a G** D*** piece of paper, that was satan talking, and telling everyone that the Constitution is not the law of the land. If you want to follow satan that's your choice. I choose the follow Christ and the Constitution.

LittleLion - you are saying exactly what I am feeling but doing so in a much kinder, Christlike and clear way! AMEN!

So we are to dismiss any laws that are not in the original constitution. Like income tax? or Seat belt laws? Speeding limits or Registering our Vehicles? As much as all those are unconstitutional is it best to fight them one by one and get arrested or have privileges revoked,or just do it illegally? Or is it best to follow the laws of the land we live in and try to help change them to be more constitutional? Giveing us more time to bring more people the Gospel. Why rot in jail not being able to serve anyone over such things or be killed. I have not heard the Church encouraging members in socialist or communist countries to brake laws. We have to work within the laws of the countries we live in.

What I am trying to say is we are subject to the laws of the land all over the world. Some are better some are worse. But the Church does not encourage going against the laws of the land one lives in. My husband lived in Russia the Church never suggested they not follow the laws of the country. They only worked within the laws.

I am a complete believer in the original intent of the constitution. I want it restored if at all possible. I also believe that we live in a corrupt world that Christ return will be the only way it is cleansed. There is a time the Lord tells his Prophets to brake the laws of the land, I just do not feel we are at that point.

If it comes to denying Christ and dying for not denying Him I will choose death. I do not say these things in fear of anything. I feel that being law biding (even to lousy ones) is the strategy the Lord has laid out at this time to best complete His harvest of His sheep.

I fear that we are at a dangerous time in our history. That we can easily be swayed to go against our government and try to overthrow it because we think it is what God would want us to do, yet actually play into the adversary's game plan. When I see the devils followers preaching the same overthrow it gives me great pause. Any kind of overthrow of this constitutional government (no matter how far off track we are) for me would need to promoted by a living prophet. At this time I have not heard one say anything to make me believe that is the correct path.

We very well may be saying the same thing but differently. I just do not believe in what I am seeing in the world today with this blood thirst to take down the powers that be for I see the very promoters of the NWO being the same supporters of its overthrow. The Adversary wants to overthrown all governments and religions of the world. I do not want to feed into that. I want the constitution in its original form, but do not feel that the majority screaming for the overthrow of the PTB want a the constitution they want what the devil is inspiring which is far worse than what we have now.

I guess I am saying lets make sure we are following the example of our Church and what it is telling us at this time we should do. At different times we are told to do different things.

Original_Intent wrote:LittleLion - you are saying exactly what I am feeling but doing so in a much kinder, Christlike and clear way! AMEN!

We have the same mindset to be sure. I know what Rosabella is saying though. Since the Church is a Corporation they do have to be immersed in unconstitutional activities to even survive. They have to have lawyers to help stay on an even keel with satans laws because if they don't then satan will shut down the missionaries and the temples. We are not corporations though. We do not have to follow the example of the Church in this regard and immerse ourselves in unconstitutional activities. This is where many people make the mistake. While it is clear that certain types of resistance to satans "laws" will make life very miserable for us we can still stay true to the constitution and let the chips fall where they may. I do have to live in this world but I do not have to be part of it.

Truth is a very hard principle to maintain in these perilous times. Rosabella is wrong when she says "We are not in the future yet with all these scary scenarios, therefore they are not relevant yet. Be sure the Church will change its stand on issues once they become issues. But for now we are told to follow the laws of the land."

Our government murders people all the time, they practice all manor of heinous evil right now, we ARE in these future and scary scenarios NOW and they are relevant.

It is an iron yoke, it is a strong band; they are the very handcuffs, and chains, and shackles, and fetters of hell.
Therefore it is an imperative duty that we owe, not only to our own wives and children, but to the widows and fatherless, whose husbands and fathers have been murdered under its iron hand;
Which dark and blackening deeds are enough to make hell itself shudder, and to stand aghast and pale, and the hands of the very devil to tremble and palsy.
And also it is an imperative duty that we owe to all the rising generation, and to all the pure in heart—
DnC 123:8-11

That being said I am not one for the overthrow the the government in a violent way. There are non violent ways to throw off the government as our constitution allows us to do. We would not be breaking any constitutional laws by doing so but we would make the ptb very mad. Mad enough that they would come against us violently. At that time we would be justified in protecting ourselves from satan.

Yes, there is a very fine line at this point in this dispensation of the fullness of times. We have to balance the needs of our Lord and our brothers and sisters who want to be on the Lords side with tip toeing through the minefield of satans plan. This is the time to fight, but not in the way Rosabella and many others are thinking people are trying to do, with guns and riots and anarchy, but with Love and resistance and creating our own Zion drawing closer to the Lord even as we do. By following the spirit and yes abiding the laws that are unconstitutional and even going to jail sometimes as the spirit directs by not taking it anymore. There are as many ways to fight as their are people on this earth and none of them have to be violent. But, the time is fast approaching that we will see violence and may have to use violence to protect ourselves.

This topic is just getting me bummed out. I am not finding the right words to explain what I am trying to say. I just look at the whole thing from a different paradigm I guess. Reading all the plans of the new age movement, their political and spiritual agendas. I see how they intend to cause such great hatred of the PTB that they intend to use that to overthrow the world and especially our Constitution. They want anarchy and division all over the world. I am just concerned that they can take our good intentions and use them against us. They take truths and twist them so we end up doing things that will only decrease the Lord's influence in the world instead of strengthening it.

Going against laws leads to limiting what we can do for the Lord if we end up in jail or dead. At this time I do not feel we are called to be martyrs yet. When that day comes I have no issue being first inline. Until then I want to be able to spread the Gospel and save souls.

That's exactly how I feel. We may have to go to jail. We may have to lay down our lives. We may have to defend our lives or we may have to suffer ourselves to be slain.
I do not believe we should become law breakers, we should be law upholders! Currently that means if I want to travel, I either have to be porn-scanned, intimately handled, or I drive or take a bus. But on the other hand, I feel that to extol the virtues of the system and how wonderful it is for keeping us safe, and that I shouldn't speak out against it because to do so is to not support the government as we are commanded to do - No, I can't accept that is what is expected of me. And for someone to imply that this means that I am being sifted and failing to follow the church's counsel somehow - it makes me want to howl in anguish that anyone could have such an upside down view. And I never would have expected to see that viewpoint expressed or defended here. And it breaks my heart to see people whose opinion I value in so many other areas to be so far off the track in this regard.

Rosabella, regarding your last post... I thought the New Age people were working in tandem with the NWO PTB. And it is not hatred I feel for them, it is resolve that I will NOT submit to them. I am not out to destroy them (unless directed by the Lord to do so) but I am with you - let the wicked destroy the wicked. But that does NOT mean submitting to the wicked. And it seems you did not read LittleLion's or my post regarding what is the law of the land. Legislation, if it goes contrary to the constitution is NOT the law of the land.

Original_Intent wrote: Rosabella, regarding your last post... I thought the New Age people were working in tandem with the NWO PTB.

They are working in tandem, just not in the way people think they are. From my view point what I see happening is this. There is a plan for a NWO that is real. But part of that plan was for it to be exposed at the right time to cause people to want to over throw it. During its overthrown (as part of its overthrown) the new age spirituality is brought in to save the day. The PTB are thwarted but the savior is the new age spirituality which creates a one world spirituality and government that appears to be against the PTB but was the real goal of them from the beginning.



And it seems you did not read LittleLion's or my post regarding what is the law of the land. Legislation, if it goes contrary to the constitution is NOT the law of the land.

I did read that. What I am trying to say is laws of all the different nations not just the laws of this land. Our Church tells members all over the world to follow the laws of their land. That is all I was trying to say. Just a different meaning of laws of the land. I could call it laws of each country, maybe that is more clear.

NoGreaterLove wrote:Civil disobedience, encouraging anarchy, violence, hatred are not the tools Heavenly Father is going to us this time to overthrow the government. We have to get that out of our heads. It is not up to us to do these things for the government to be purified. God has told us in these conference talks what he expects out of us.
Let the wicked destroy the wicked. If we become part of what is destroying our government, we become one with the wicked.
Anarchy and civil disobedience may have been the path that lead to the creation of our country, but this time God has a different plan for the Saints. We need to follow that plan.

One time Nephi was told to behead a drunken political leader to preserve a people. The next time when his brothers sought his life, Nephi was told to take his family and flee.
The secret to Nephi's success was following revelation from God. He was the prophet.

on what possible, possible grounds can you equate Civil disobedience, with violence and anarchy?

my opinion is that Civil disobedience is about the ONLY thing that might save your country...if people are brave enough

">>>>>>It is not up to us to do these things for the government to be purified. "............Yes it is. Ether 8


">>>>>God has told us in these conference talks what he expects out of us." And he has in Scripture too. Ether 8

WHat he HASN'T told us, is the watered down gutless supine cop out peddled here about "don't tweak the tail of the beast"

All I can ask is when were you neutralised?

Do I need to quote those 7 points from again? You know...the saints wont do anything because they are waiting for a program, or the church to tell them to do it


Sorry, i luv ya but that attitude is so fundamentally diametrical to most everything I believe and teach my children


">>>>>>>>>> If we become part of what is destroying our government, we become one with the wicked."...........= defeatist


">>>>>>Anarchy and civil disobedience may have been the path that lead to the creation of our country, but this time God has a different plan for the Saints. We need to follow that plan."............hey- got for your life. Here's your map compass and water bottle. go hide while the warriors stand to preserve the little freedoms you still have

Just remember- next time you are in an airport and they start feeling up one of your kids or grandkids- and tell you they are taking them into a private room for "special treatment", remember, you said it first.

I have enjoyed the discussion. I have one thing to add, it would seem there is a certain dimension of government that is being left out here. The constitution is the law of the federal government. I don't know about China and Russia etc and it doesn't concern me. In the United States though the federal government has a very few and defined powers as given in the Constitution. Any thing else is usurpation as was previously stated. There is a place for some of the laws and regulations that were also mentioned but they should come from cities, counties and at worst from the state. State and local constitutions and charters do give powers not given the feds. The federal Constitution recognises and gives them power over these things. The Feds should not have any authority over our daily lives. Laws that are in accordance with their local constitutions and obey natural law are also the law of that land. That said I believe that many of the local governments have gone out of their bounds as well. Anything that violates natural law is wrong, and should be resisted. At least when it comes from the local level it is easier to change in a peaceful manner. Law enforcement for example should not go higher than a Sheriff in my opinion. Criminal courts should not go higher than the state with only the specific exemptions given in the constitution for federal. There are many other examples of proper power being taken by the wrong level of government.

I hope this comes across clearly. The church's counsel has been to submit to proper authority. (AoF, D&C 134 etc) Proper authority usually belongs locally but has largely been usurped by the state or feds. Where authority is proper I will gladly submit. I do not believe however, that we are obligated to bow to usurped power.

LittleLion wrote:

NoGreaterLove wrote:Do you believe in following the prophets? That is the "tight little box" I speak from. I it is subjects like this that will drive the faithful away form the prophet's counsel. This is where it get sticky. This is where we will lose faithful members of the church who refuse to follow the prophet because they are not willing to suffer persecution from our government.

God does not expect us to be true to a government that has laws that say they can steal the fruits of a mans labor or murder for no other reason than because they say so and so on. If you really believe that is what our Church teaches by all means be a slave. I choose to love all men equally until they take my God given rights, which no man or group of men have a right to take, no matter what law they profess to have passed and that I must obey. If you really believe you are doing wrong in Gods eyes by fighting for your God given rights then go ahead and lay your life down and suffer as a slave to man. But, I will guarantee you one thing which I know for a surety, we will both ascend to the same heights in Gods kingdom if the only difference in how we lived our lives on this earth was that you were a slave to man and I fought to the death for my God given rights.

You are dead wrong ngl when you say the church teaches that men should live under unrighteous dominion and be as tame as sheep about it. You do have a choice to be a lion, to fight and die for what you believe in. The church will never tell a man not to fight and die if necessary for what he believes in, and neither will Christ, ever.

I guess that is what Joseph said when he was led as a lamb to the slaughter, or Daniel as he approached the lions den, or maybe Shadrach as he was tossed into the fire, or how about the Saints as they were told by the prophet to leave their legally purchased homes, or those in Nauvoo who had given their all to built a temple, only to have it burned.

You see, it is all about following the prophet. Once men followed the prophet as he escaped from a prison which was ilegally being held in which was against the law. So yes, there may be times....................but for now it is not one of those times. You have the conference talks before you. I posted them and highlighted them so you can see the counsel. Choose to be blind if you will. Choose to not follow the prophets counsel. Choose at your own spiritual peril. What kind of reward will you get for not following His commandments as issued by His prophets at General Conference? Will you say, in thy name oh Lord, I cast out devils, I even died in thy name for a great cause. He will say, You did not follow my prophets, I never knew you.

Original_Intent wrote:I usually agree with you NGL, but in this case I believe you are dead wrong.

Read the conference talks.

Following the prophet will be the thing that separates the wheat from the tares. Be very careful with what these talks say. I would not be so quick to put them aside because of preconceived ideas. The talks are very plain, very direct.

LittleLion wrote:

Original_Intent wrote:LittleLion - you are saying exactly what I am feeling but doing so in a much kinder, Christlike and clear way! AMEN!

We have the same mindset to be sure. I know what Rosabella is saying though. Since the Church is a Corporation they do have to be immersed in unconstitutional activities to even survive. They have to have lawyers to help stay on an even keel with satans laws because if they don't then satan will shut down the missionaries and the temples. We are not corporations though. We do not have to follow the example of the Church in this regard and immerse ourselves in unconstitutional activities. This is where many people make the mistake. While it is clear that certain types of resistance to satans "laws" will make life very miserable for us we can still stay true to the constitution and let the chips fall where they may. I do have to live in this world but I do not have to be part of it.

Truth is a very hard principle to maintain in these perilous times. Rosabella is wrong when she says "We are not in the future yet with all these scary scenarios, therefore they are not relevant yet. Be sure the Church will change its stand on issues once they become issues. But for now we are told to follow the laws of the land."

Our government murders people all the time, they practice all manor of heinous evil right now, we ARE in these future and scary scenarios NOW and they are relevant.

It is an iron yoke, it is a strong band; they are the very handcuffs, and chains, and shackles, and fetters of hell.
Therefore it is an imperative duty that we owe, not only to our own wives and children, but to the widows and fatherless, whose husbands and fathers have been murdered under its iron hand;
Which dark and blackening deeds are enough to make hell itself shudder, and to stand aghast and pale, and the hands of the very devil to tremble and palsy.
And also it is an imperative duty that we owe to all the rising generation, and to all the pure in heart—
DnC 123:8-11

That being said I am not one for the overthrow the the government in a violent way. There are non violent ways to throw off the government as our constitution allows us to do. We would not be breaking any constitutional laws by doing so but we would make the ptb very mad. Mad enough that they would come against us violently. At that time we would be justified in protecting ourselves from satan.

Yes, there is a very fine line at this point in this dispensation of the fullness of times. We have to balance the needs of our Lord and our brothers and sisters who want to be on the Lords side with tip toeing through the minefield of satans plan. This is the time to fight, but not in the way Rosabella and many others are thinking people are trying to do, with guns and riots and anarchy, but with Love and resistance and creating our own Zion drawing closer to the Lord even as we do. By following the spirit and yes abiding the laws that are unconstitutional and even going to jail sometimes as the spirit directs by not taking it anymore. There are as many ways to fight as their are people on this earth and none of them have to be violent. But, the time is fast approaching that we will see violence and may have to use violence to protect ourselves.

Hearty Amen!

NoGreaterLove wrote:Once men followed the prophet as he escaped from a prison which was ilegally being held in which was against the law. So yes, there may be times....................but for now it is not one of those times.

Yes there are times and I am glad you finally admit it. There is a huge difference between legal and lawful and you should learn what it is. I am sorry but it is the time, the time is now. Your interpretations are for you, mine are for me. The spirit will dictate not the prophet. All prophets have asked the people to make sure that they consult the spirit before they act even when acting upon a Prophets words. If you do not consult the spirit at all times and always just follow the prophet as a blind man then that is what you are, blind.

You have a slave mentality ngl, I can see you taking the mark and being one of the ones that turn on there own people. You are one to be afraid of.

Original_Intent wrote:OK, let me be clear where NGL and I part ways (I think).

This is my view.

The Constitution is the supreme law of the land. And LEGISLATION that is passed, to be lawful, must either be within the bounds of the Constution, or the Constitution must be amended according to the process set forth within the Constitution.

Any legislation that is passed that does not meet this requirement is usurpation by elected officials, and is an ILLEGAL law. I am not bound to obey any such legislation. To say otherwise is to say that we are not a Republic at all and are completely at the mercy and whims of 435 congressmen, 100 Senators, 1 President and 9 Supreme Court Justices - and in fact, if majorities are all that are needed it is only 218 Congressmen, 51 Senators, a President, and 5 SC Justices.

That is not the system we live under in this country. We are sovereign individuals who chose representatives who are SUPPOSED to represent us but at the very least BY LAW and BY THE OATH of office they take, they are bound by the constraints of the Constitution. And not by what 5 Supreme Court Justices SAY is in the Constitution, but by the ORIGINAL INTENT of those who created the document.

Any "law" outside of that context is no law, and despite what any government apologist says, that is where I stand and any interpretation of the church leadership's statements to the contrary is incorrect in my opinion.

It seems to me that NGL is saying we are told by the church to submit to whatever legislation "passes" and to do otherwise is to go against the church leadership. Or maybe we must wait to be commanded in all things before we have a right to resist, peacefully if possible but with whatever means that we deem necessary.

The ideas that NGL is espousing I find alarming, especially from someone I considered to be awake to our awful situation. To me it seems the message is "passively submit to everything and the Lord will come and save the day." The Lord will always give us the support needed AFTER we do all that we can do. I do not believe that we are justified in doing nothing and just waiting for the Lord, and I also do not think we are justified in waiting for the church to tell us if a law is a legitimate law or not.

I understand why Wikiwajio (sp?) got so frustrated with people.

There are two kinds of awake we are dealing with here. Awake to the wickedness of our country and awake to what God's commandments are in relationship to how to address those issues.
We always talk about what is going to drive people away from the church. This is a BIG one! It will be a means of separation. Pray hard a long about this OI. Read those talks and let your heart be softened to what they are saying.
Persecution is coming to the Saints in many forms. One of those forms is from the Government. How we deal with this persecution is paramount. Read Section 121 of the D&C. It tells us how to deal with it. Sometimes things are not just, but we have to deal with it within the bounds the Lord has set. These bounds are clearly defined.

(Doctrine and Covenants 121:41.)

41 No power or influence can or ought to be maintained by virtue of the priesthood, only by persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned.

(Doctrine and Covenants 58:21-22.)

21 Let no man break the laws of the land, for he that keepeth the laws of God hath no need to break the laws of the land.

22 Wherefore, be subject to the powers that be, until he reigns whose right it is to reign, and subdues all enemies under his feet


These are clearly defined laws that govern us. They are eternal laws. If we break them we can not expect the Lord to bless us.

The spirit will dictate not the prophet

If you are receiving revelation contrary to the prophets counsel, you will be like those at Haun's Mill who were lead by a man who thought he received revelation that superseded the Prophet Joseph Smith's counsel. See where it got them?

nobody will ever convince me that God commands that I acquiesce to a government that is satanic or tyrannical to a point that it has no regard for human life.

That is exactly what he has told his saints all over the world. Read the conference talk. Read D&C.

Thank goodness our brothers and sisters in China, Russia, Korea etc., understand this principle. Our turn is coming. I hope we get it before it comes or there will not be many left alive to inherit the New Jerusalem.

LittleLion wrote:

Rosabella wrote:We should follow the Church's example and its direction at this time regarding following the laws of the land in-which we live. If you believe different then it is the Church that you disagree with.

We are not in the future yet with all these scary scenarios, therefore they are not relevant yet. Be sure the Church will change its stand on issues once they become issues. But for now we are told to follow the laws of the land.

Rosabella, Rosabella, Rosabella..... I love your website and your seminars I have been to. Your awesome! The law of the land in which we live is the Constitution according to Christ himself. Not the codes, statutes and whatever else man wants to throw at us. This is a satanic government as we know, it is run by satan himself as far as the Lord will permit him. I quoted a Prophet saying these things these are not my words. If you want to believe that the law of the land is not the constitution but truly is all the other edicts of man then thats your choice, you cannot believe in both because they are contradictory and Christ does not support the others, only the constitution. So, when the Church says follow the laws of the land they are saying follow the Constitution. Being subject to the powers that be does not mean giving up the constitution. When president Bush called the Constitution just a G** D*** piece of paper, that was satan talking, and telling everyone that the Constitution is not the law of the land. If you want to follow satan that's your choice. I choose the follow Christ and the Constitution.

How many countries live by our constitution? One. But this is a world wide Church. The commandments are to all his children. He is no respecter of persons. All must obey his word.

NoGreaterLove wrote:How many countries live by our constitution? One.

Which one is that?

Well this has been a lively discussion. You guys know where I and the others stand now. I do not feel to debate it any further, but carry on if you wish.

shadow wrote:

NoGreaterLove wrote:How many countries live by our constitution? One.

Which one is that?

You have a valid point!

It will be interesting to see if this subject is brought up at the next general conference.

You're just spamming now NGL.

You say the D&C says to obey every law passed, even it if it violates the laws of God.

Others (including me) say that the D&C tells us there are times when Gods law must be obeyed over the laws of man.

After half a dozen pages of tit for tat, it doesn't seem we can agree. Now what?

Mahonri wrote:

After half a dozen pages of tit for tat, it doesn't seem we can agree. Now what?

NoGreaterLove wrote:Well this has been a lively discussion. You guys know where I and the others stand now. I do not feel to debate it any further, but carry on if you wish.

I think he's agreed to disagree. Sometimes that's the best option.

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