LDS Freedom Forum

Abraham Lincoln once observed: “Bad laws, if they exist, should be repealed as soon as possible; still, while they continue in force, they should be religiously observed.”
This is the attitude of the Church in regard to law observance.

This speak to our day and time and how we are to address bad laws. I completely understand why so many want to do otherwise, however, we have to trust the Lord.
(JST Proverbs 3:5-8.)

5 Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

7 Be not wise in thine own eyes; fear the Lord, and depart from evil.

8 It shall be health to thy navel, and marrow to thy bones.

He sees the bigger picture. We see through a small hole.

NoGreaterLove wrote:The purpose of this post is to put to rest a myth that has been circulated on this forum concerning obedience to the law of the land no matter what part of the world you live in.
The two quotes below are from conference talks which deal with this matter. In each you will find this point is clarified. No matter what country you live in, you are expected to obey all the laws, whether they are constitutional or not.

"There is no reason or justification for men to disregard or break the law or try to take it into their own hands."

The Rule of Law
By President Marion G. Romney
Second Counselor in the First Presidency

Latter-day Saints should strictly obey the laws of the government in which they live. By our own declaration of faith we are committed to do so, for we declare to the world that “we believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.” (A of F 1:12.)
This we do in harmony with the Lord’s command:
“Let no man break the laws of the land, for he that keepeth the laws of God hath no need to break the laws of the land.
“Wherefore, be subject to the powers that be, until he reigns whose right it is to reign, and subdues all enemies under his feet.” (D&C 58:21–22.)
“Civil authority is of divine origin. It may be more or less adapted to the needs of man; more or less just and benevolent, but, even at its worst, it is better than anarchy. Revolutionary movements that aim at the abolition of government itself are contrary to the law of God. …” (Doctrine and Covenants Commentary [Deseret Book Co., 1954], p. 339.)
When the “rule of law” breaks down in a family, a community, a state, or a nation, chaos reigns.
The kingdoms of heaven are to be free from chaos, because no one will be in any one of them who does not by his own free will obey the laws thereof.

The Laws of God
N. Eldon Tanner

Now, regarding the laws of the land, or the laws of man, it is necessary that we be governed by laws, which are made not alone to curb the evildoer, but to protect the rights of all. Let me quote from the Doctrine and Covenants:
“We believe that governments were instituted of God for the benefit of man; and that he holds men accountable for their acts in relation to them, both in making laws and administering them, for the good and safety of society.
“We believe that no government can exist in peace, except such laws are framed and held inviolate as will secure to each individual the free exercise of conscience, the right and control of property, and the protection of life.
“We believe that all governments necessarily require civil officers and magistrates to enforce the laws of the same; and that such as will administer the law in equity and justice should be sought for and upheld by the voice of the people if a republic, or the will of the sovereign.” (D&C 134:1–3.)
Our Twelfth Article of Faith [A of F 1:12] states: “We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.”
It is most important that all citizens be informed in matters of government; that they know and understand the laws of the land; and that they take an active part wherever possible in choosing and electing honest and wise men to administer the affairs of government.
There are many who question the constitutionality of certain acts passed by their respective governments, even though such laws have been established by the highest courts in the land as being constitutional, and they feel to defy and disobey the law.
Abraham Lincoln once observed: “Bad laws, if they exist, should be repealed as soon as possible; still, while they continue in force, they should be religiously observed.”
This is the attitude of the Church in regard to law observance. We agree with the author of the following statement:
“In reality the man who defies or flouts the law is like the proverbial fool who saws away the plank on which he sits, and a disrespect or disregard for law is always the first sign of a disintegrating society. Respect for law is the most fundamental of all social virtues, for the alternative to the rule of law is that of violence and anarchy.” (Case and Comment, March/April issue, 1965, p. 20.)
There is no reason or justification for men to disregard or break the law or try to take it into their own hands. Christ gave us the great example of a law-abiding citizen when the Pharisees, trying to entangle him, as the scriptures say, asked him if it were lawful to give tribute money unto Caesar. After asking whose inscription was on the tribute money, and their acknowledgment that it was Caesar’s, he said:
“Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s; and unto God the things that are God’s.” (Matt. 22:21.)
It is the duty of citizens of any country to remember that they have individual responsibilities, and that they must operate within the law of the country in which they have chosen to live. I quote further from the Doctrine and Covenants:
“We believe that all men are bound to sustain and uphold the respective governments in which they reside, while protected in their inherent and inalienable rights by the laws of such governments; and that sedition and rebellion are unbecoming every citizen thus protected, and should be punished accordingly; and that all governments have a right to enact such laws as in their own judgments are best calculated to secure the public interest; at the same time, however, holding sacred the freedom of conscience.” (D&C 134:5.)

NJB? Hello....? You around?

From his previous posts, I'd think that he disagrees with you, NGL.

From his previous posts, I'd think that he disagrees with you, NGL.

I am sure I will hear from him soon.

There can also be a significant difference between obeying a bad law and defending it.

In other words, we may be commmanded to submit (albeit unwillingly) to a bad law. And certainly what is said above about ANARCHY I 100% agree with.

But because we have been commanded to obery does not mean we should defend those laws or advocate for those bad laws by pointing out all the supposed benefits we derive from them.

It does not mean that you should not to the best of your abililty, undertand proper principles of government and demonstrate the contrast between the law we live under and the law we SHOULD BE living under to as many as possible.

I am also a sovereign individual with certain unalienable rights. I have certain lines that will not be crossed, and my life and my family member's lives will be sacrificed before I will allow those lines to be crossed.

Just an example. Say a neighbor falsely reported me to child protective services, and someone came to my house to take my kids away from me. If push comes to shove, there will be blood on the floor before they take my kids. That's one area I have discussed with my family and it would never happen. (My kids are well into their teens and I am not really worried about this scenario happening. But that is an area that I decided long ago as a svereing individual - that line WILL not be crossed and that's the end of it. And it would take a personal revelation for me to change my position.

You see, as a sovereing individual I have the right to actually make a few laws of my own within my stewardship. And I have been pretty careful about drawing those lines in the sand. So if one of my fellow sovereign citizens decide the be the bagman for "the government" (and in the U.S. the government means the representative for all of the rest of you folks.) then it is one his head if he decides to "declare war" upon my person or those under my protection.

I submit completely to God's law only. There are certain actions that government agents can take that makes them the ones not in compliance with law, not me.

Let's take an extreme example, since you seem to like those (re: the family member raped and murdered thread).

Let's say a mafia member thru fraud was able to "get elected" mayor, and then imposed martial law on our city. He was not legitimately elected but managed to seize power. Would you be obligated to follow his dictates? How about if I declare my ward a sovereing nation and I am the King - well, my word is now "the law" so according to your above quotes they are obligated to comply - they need to be subject to kings, right?

OK, so that's ridiculous...right? So what if members of the federal government are also equally illegitimate??? What if THEY are the ones who disregard the LAW OF THE LAND and just start ruling by fiat (declaration). If you are using any common sense, you can see that it is the same problem - how do you resolve this?

Let's say a mafia member thru fraud was able to "get elected" mayor, and then imposed martial law on our city. He was not legitimately elected but managed to seize power. Would you be obligated to follow his dictates? How about if I declare my ward a sovereing nation and I am the King - well, my word is now "the law" so according to your above quotes they are obligated to comply - they need to be subject to kings, right?

OK, so that's ridiculous...right? So what if members of the federal government are also equally illegitimate??? What if THEY are the ones who disregard the LAW OF THE LAND and just start ruling by fiat (declaration). If you are using any common sense, you can see that it is the same problem - how do you resolve this?

The answer to both scenarios is this.Abraham Lincoln once observed: “Bad laws, if they exist, should be repealed as soon as possible; still, while they continue in force, they should be religiously observed.”
This is the attitude of the Church in regard to law observance.

There are law in place that deal with this situation. I would address the wrongs using those laws.

But I will take this one step further. We are a global church not a reclusive one. Christ died for all of us, not just for the U.S. citizens. When the prophets speak at conference they are addressing ALL the saints, no matter WHICH government they are under. Some countries are already under such leadership as you describe. The counsel is still the same as stated in these talks. We do not have some special set of orders from God about obeying laws just because we live in the good ole US of A. No, he expects us all to live by these laws. We ( U.S. citizens) tend to forget we are a global religion and God is no respecter of persons.

OI
What would you do if God placed you in Russia at birth? You would follow the prophets counsel. The same applies in the USA.

Civil disobedience, encouraging anarchy, violence, hatred are not the tools Heavenly Father is going to us this time to overthrow the government. We have to get that out of our heads. It is not up to us to do these things for the government to be purified. God has told us in these conference talks what he expects out of us.
Let the wicked destroy the wicked. If we become part of what is destroying our government, we become one with the wicked.
Anarchy and civil disobedience may have been the path that lead to the creation of our country, but this time God has a different plan for the Saints. We need to follow that plan.

One time Nephi was told to behead a drunken political leader to preserve a people. The next time when his brothers sought his life, Nephi was told to take his family and flee.
The secret to Nephi's success was following revelation from God. He was the prophet.

NoGreaterLove wrote:Civil disobedience, encouraging anarchy, violence, hatred are not the tools Heavenly Father is going to us this time to overthrow the government. We have to get that out of our heads. It is not up to us to do these things for the government to be purified. God has told us in these conference talks what he expects out of us.
Let the wicked destroy the wicked. If we become part of what is destroying our government, we become one with the wicked.
Anarchy and civil disobedience may have been the path that lead to the creation of our country, but this time God has a different plan for the Saints. We need to follow that plan.

One time Nephi was told to behead a drunken political leader to preserve a people. The next time when his brothers sought his life, Nephi was told to take his family and flee.
The secret to Nephi's success was following revelation from God. He was the prophet.

I have no problem with that. I am not rebelling against the government, I am working to bring about change within the system.
You did not answer my question if I declared myself king of my ward? If you would not obey my law, then should you obey any other ILLEGITIMATE authority? Why or why not? Because they have more guns and thugs to back their position.

As I stated, as long as the lines I ahve drawn are not crossed, I am satisfied to let the wicked destroy the wicked. It SEEMS to me that you seem to advocate compliance NO MATTER what government decides to do. This could be a misunderstanding on my part, but if that is what you are saying, I strongly disagree.

Government could pass a law that it is illegal to speak critically of the government. That's a law I will disobey because it is inherently satanic tyranny.

You SEEM to feel that anyone that resists government or demands that government stay within its constitutional bounds is by definition an anarchist. That is absolutely not the case, and if that is indeed what you are saying, then you have labeled every modern day prophet an anarchist, most notably President Ezra Taft Benson. (spelled out and with proper title.) 8)

Government could pass a law that it is illegal to speak critically of the government. That's a law I will disobey because it is inherently satanic tyranny.

You are thinking from a U.S. perspective. I am trying to broaden your thinking. Step out of the American box for a second. If you lived in most of the countries in the world, you would not have the right to speak against the government. People in China do not have this right. The church does not say go ahead and disobey China's laws, it is ok. No. The opposite is true. They tell the Chinese people who are Saints to obey that law even though it is "inherently satanic tyranny".
We do not have a special set of laws from God here in America just because we live here. We are held to the same accountability to obey the laws of the land as they are. If there was a difference, I would say we under a stricter law here in America than someone in China because we have a system of redress and more protection from tyranny.
We are spoiled here in the U.S.. We think we do not have to suffer persecution from our Government. Those days are coming to an end. The Lord is going to expect us to be patient, full of love, charitable and willing to submit to anything the Lord requires of us. At this time he is requiring us to submit to these unjust laws and through proper, legal redress, get them changed.
We have to quit seeing ourselves as the "special one" because we live in the U.S.. We are required to sacrifice just like the Koreans or the Chinese. We have to obey the laws. This is our current mandate from the prophet.

NoGreaterLove wrote:

Government could pass a law that it is illegal to speak critically of the government. That's a law I will disobey because it is inherently satanic tyranny.

You are thinking from a U.S. perspective. I am trying to broaden your thinking. Step out of the American box for a second. If you lived in most of the countries in the world, you would not have the right to speak against the government. People in China do not have this right. The church does not say go ahead and disobey China's laws, it is ok. No. The opposite is true. They tell the Chinese people who are Saints to obey that law even though it is "inherently satanic tyranny".
We do not have a special set of laws from God here in America just because we live here. We are held to the same accountability to obey the laws of the land as they are. If there was a difference, I would say we under a stricter law here in America than someone in China because we have a system of redress and more protection from tyranny.
We are spoiled here in the U.S.. We think we do not have to suffer persecution from our Government. Those days are coming to an end. The Lord is going to expect us to be patient, full of love, charitable and willing to submit to anything the Lord requires of us. At this time he is requiring us to submit to these unjust laws and through proper, legal redress, get them changed.
We have to quit seeing ourselves as the "special one" because we live in the U.S.. We are required to sacrifice just like the Koreans or the Chinese. We have to obey the laws. This is our current mandate from the prophet.

Broaden thinking while trying to enclose the whole perspective in a tight little box????

Broaden thinking while trying to enclose the whole perspective in a tight little box????

Do you believe in following the prophets? That is the "tight little box" I speak from. I it is subjects like this that will drive the faithful away form the prophet's counsel. This is where it get sticky. This is where we will lose faithful members of the church who refuse to follow the prophet because they are not willing to suffer persecution from our government.

The saints in Missouri and Nauvoo had to face similar dilemmas. The ones who made it through the persecution are the one's who followed the prophet. The rest succumbed and fell away or were killed. Every saint who made it to SLC did so by following the prophets counsel, no matter how unfair it seemed. If we want to make it to the New Jerusalem the same will be expected of us. Except this time, it is going to be harder, the persecution greater, the trials longer. To borrow a phrase, "are you ready"?

NoGreaterLove wrote:

Broaden thinking while trying to enclose the whole perspective in a tight little box????

Do you believe in following the prophets? That is the "tight little box" I speak from. I it is subjects like this that will drive the faithful away form the prophet's counsel. This is where it get sticky. This is where we will lose faithful members of the church who refuse to follow the prophet because they are not willing to suffer persecution from our government.

If you say so.....

The Declaration of Independence is our scripture on the subject. Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes, but when a long train of abuses... Many governments meet that scriptural requirement for altering or abolishing that government and establishing a new guard. That is the church's and our true government's stance on the subject and should be ours as well. Of course mankind is more apt to suffer these abuses than rebel (as is likewise articulated by that great scripture), hence we need worry more about submitting to too much than too little generally speaking. Our nation is a case in point! I think we are long overdue, but I do not think that it would be wisdom to have a revolution now because so few agree on what to enshrine in it's place (aside from some vague and poor understanding of the constitution). We would end up fighting our own side as is so often the case in revolutions.

It is not too early for a revolution, it is too late.

NoGreaterLove wrote:Do you believe in following the prophets? That is the "tight little box" I speak from. I it is subjects like this that will drive the faithful away form the prophet's counsel. This is where it get sticky. This is where we will lose faithful members of the church who refuse to follow the prophet because they are not willing to suffer persecution from our government.

God does not expect us to be true to a government that has laws that say they can steal the fruits of a mans labor or murder for no other reason than because they say so and so on. If you really believe that is what our Church teaches by all means be a slave. I choose to love all men equally until they take my God given rights, which no man or group of men have a right to take, no matter what law they profess to have passed and that I must obey. If you really believe you are doing wrong in Gods eyes by fighting for your God given rights then go ahead and lay your life down and suffer as a slave to man. But, I will guarantee you one thing which I know for a surety, we will both ascend to the same heights in Gods kingdom if the only difference in how we lived our lives on this earth was that you were a slave to man and I fought to the death for my God given rights.

You are dead wrong ngl when you say the church teaches that men should live under unrighteous dominion and be as tame as sheep about it. You do have a choice to be a lion, to fight and die for what you believe in. The church will never tell a man not to fight and die if necessary for what he believes in, and neither will Christ, ever.

I usually agree with you NGL, but in this case I believe you are dead wrong.

We should follow the philosophy the Church uses in regards to missionary work in other countries. If the countries law is such that it is against the law to proselyte in that country we do not do it. The Church finds ways to build relationships with the country help opened them to having our Church proselyte there. If the laws of the country are against it we do not sneak around the Laws of that Nation. We uphold their laws. Under the Soviet Union the Church worked within the Laws of the Soviet Union. It was only when the Laws changed that missionaries could baptize Soviet citizens.

Missionaries are counseled not to baptism Muslims that intend to return to a Muslim country where if it becomes know they joined the LDS Church they would be executed. If the Muslim intends to not live in such a country then they are free to be baptized. If he or she intends to live in a country that executes those that join another faith we do not baptize them regardless of their desires to be baptized.

After Jesus was resurrected, He visited His apostles and sent them to preach to the gentiles. He commanded them, “Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature” (Mark 16:15). You could say this is a commandment that is supersedes laws of man and countries and argue that we must do it regardless what the nations laws are. But that is not the way of the Lord. He has told us to work within the laws of the nation. If the Churches position in regards to such important ordinances as Baptism is governed by the laws of the Nation then why should we not also obey the other laws of the land. If it were God's will that we go against the evil laws of nations this law would and should be the first one that we break. But we do not do that. The desire of people to be baptized into the true Church of God is not allowed until the Nation they live in allows it. Therefore the Church always works within the laws of any given country. Why should we be any different here in this country?

Also in countries that it is against the law to hoard food the Church does not require them to have a years food supply. The tell them to obey the laws of the land. The do not suggest they sneak and do it anyway because it is a law of God. The Church works within the Laws of the Land not above them or around them.

Until the Church sets up its own country (if you want to call it that) "Zion" where man is free to live all the Laws of God we must abide the Lords command to keep the laws of the land including our own.

OK, let me be clear where NGL and I part ways (I think).

This is my view.

The Constitution is the supreme law of the land. And LEGISLATION that is passed, to be lawful, must either be within the bounds of the Constution, or the Constitution must be amended according to the process set forth within the Constitution.

Any legislation that is passed that does not meet this requirement is usurpation by elected officials, and is an ILLEGAL law. I am not bound to obey any such legislation. To say otherwise is to say that we are not a Republic at all and are completely at the mercy and whims of 435 congressmen, 100 Senators, 1 President and 9 Supreme Court Justices - and in fact, if majorities are all that are needed it is only 218 Congressmen, 51 Senators, a President, and 5 SC Justices.

That is not the system we live under in this country. We are sovereign individuals who chose representatives who are SUPPOSED to represent us but at the very least BY LAW and BY THE OATH of office they take, they are bound by the constraints of the Constitution. And not by what 5 Supreme Court Justices SAY is in the Constitution, but by the ORIGINAL INTENT of those who created the document.

Any "law" outside of that context is no law, and despite what any government apologist says, that is where I stand and any interpretation of the church leadership's statements to the contrary is incorrect in my opinion.

It seems to me that NGL is saying we are told by the church to submit to whatever legislation "passes" and to do otherwise is to go against the church leadership. Or maybe we must wait to be commanded in all things before we have a right to resist, peacefully if possible but with whatever means that we deem necessary.

The ideas that NGL is espousing I find alarming, especially from someone I considered to be awake to our awful situation. To me it seems the message is "passively submit to everything and the Lord will come and save the day." The Lord will always give us the support needed AFTER we do all that we can do. I do not believe that we are justified in doing nothing and just waiting for the Lord, and I also do not think we are justified in waiting for the church to tell us if a law is a legitimate law or not.

I understand why Wikiwajio (sp?) got so frustrated with people.

And let me make one more thing clear - I am addressing this from a U.S. perspective because THAT IS THE COUNTRY THAT I AM DEALING with. I am both shocked and appalled that people are quick to say we should look at our situation "as if" we were in Russia, or China. Wow! If the government starts sending people door to door doing midnight knocks and dragging people away for "questioning" - I am too submit to that because, well the Chinese and the Russian people had to and the Church never told them to resist.

Really? Is that what some of you are suggesting? Because that's what I am hearing. As long as it is from "government" I must submit because that is what we have been told????

I am really at a loss of words. I really cannot convey the level of shock that I am feeling that this seems to be the position that people are taking!

I'm out.

Rosabella wrote:Also in countries that it is against the law to hoard food the Church does not require them to have a years food supply. The tell them to obey the laws of the land. The do not suggest they sneak and do it anyway because it is a law of God. The Church works within the Laws of the Land not above them or around them.

Until the Church sets up its own country (if you want to call it that) "Zion" where man is free to live all the Laws of God we must abide the Lords command to keep the laws of the land including our own.

Rosabella I'm sorry I disagree with you and ngl on this matter. For the most part we are talking about two different things. You are talking about inconveniences and blatant corruption in government. I am talking about fighting for your life or being a slave. I am sorry, no matter what scripture or logic is quoted nobody will ever convince me that God commands that I acquiesce to a government that is satanic or tyrannical to a point that it has no regard for human life. I have a human and God given right to protect my life and property from anyone or anything. I have a human and God given right to protect my family and my right to decide for myself what I will or will not put in my body. I have a human and God given right to worship how I choose. I am talking basic human activity. God owns my life to be sure, but only he does, I have a right to choose what I do with this life, no other man or group of men have that right over me no matter what. No man or group of men owns my life period. If a man or group of men come to tell me they do own my life then someone is going to die.

“Satan has control now. No matter where you look, he is in control, even in our own land. He is guiding the governments as far as the Lord will permit him. That is why there is so much strife, turmoil, confusion all over the earth. One master mind is governing the nations. It is not the President of the United States...it is not the king or government of England or any other land; it is Satan himself.” (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, Vol. 3, pp. 314-315)

If you believe that the Church is saying follow a satanic government into the abyss I say to you go right ahead for I will not. No man or group of men has a right to take from me what God has given me no matter what they call themselves, what laws they say they have that rule over man, no matter what.

Christ himself said that the only law of this land is The Constitution and anything more or less than this cometh of evil. We are justified in upholding his law of the land, The Constitution, and upholding evil is wrong. I will live my life by my interpretation of what God and his prophets have said and by how the spirit directs me. I will not uphold evil, even if it kills me.


I totally agree with everything Original_Intent is saying also.

The simple question is Does the LDS Church work within the Laws of this Country and work within the Laws of all other countries. If they do then that is the example we are to follow. The Church directs its members when not to follow the laws of the land and when to. Right now we are under the orders to follow the laws of the land. If we did not do this at this time in history there would be very little harvest of souls taking place. We cannot fight the world and harvest the elect. There will be plenty of time to fight when the time of the harvest closes.

This does not mean we do not vote and promote truths and encourage other to do the same. But it does mean that we are to do it within the Laws of the Land. We are not at this time under any form of horrific persecution and under an extinction order. I am sure that will happen and when it does our Church will give directions relevant to the situations of the time just as it always has.

I will not uphold and embrace evil, even if my government tells me too.

We should follow the Church's example and its direction at this time regarding following the laws of the land in-which we live. If you believe different then it is the Church that you disagree with.

We are not in the future yet with all these scary scenarios, therefore they are not relevant yet. Be sure the Church will change its stand on issues once they become issues. But for now we are told to follow the laws of the land.

edit: clarify...Scary scenarios meaning being taken out of our house in the middle of the night...being ask to deny Christ or die, those kind of extremes.

I believe the wicked will destroy the wicked. Eventually there will be an end to all nations.