Can one spouse save the other through "true love"?

[NoGreaterLove]

Nothing can change or alter the decree of God concerning those who have received the Gospel and fallen away. Not true love, not hopes, not desires, not prayers.........nothing!

Below are quotes:

Procrastination leads to loss of exaltation. One of the most serious human defects in all ages is procrastination, an unwillingness to accept personal responsibilities now. Men came to earth consciously to obtain their schooling, their training and development, and to perfect themselves, but many have allowed themselves to be diverted and have become merely "hewers of wood and drawers of water," addicts to mental and spiritual indolence and to the pursuit of worldly pleasure.

There are even many members of the Church who are lax and careless and who continually procrastinate. They live the gospel casually but not devoutly. They have complied with some requirements but are not valiant. They do no major crime but merely fail to do the things required-things like paying tithing, living the Word of Wisdom, having family prayers, fasting, attending meetings, serving.

One Church member of my acquaintance said, as she drank her coffee: "The Lord knows my heart is right and that I have good intentions, and that I will someday get the strength to quit." But will one receive eternal life on the basis of his good intentions? ...

It is true that many Latter-day Saints, having been baptized and confirmed members of the Church and some even having received their endowments and having been married and sealed in the holy temple, have felt that they were thus guaranteed the blessings of exaltation and eternal life. But this is not so. There are two basic requirements every soul must fulfill or he cannot attain to the great blessings offered. He must receive the ordinances and he must be faithful, overcoming his weaknesses. Hence, not all who claim to be Latter-day Saints will be exalted. (MF 7-9)
(Spencer W. Kimball, The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, edited by Edward L. Kimball [Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1982], 48.)

So-called deathbed repentance is not part of the divine plan. It is an attempt to live after the manner of the world during the years of vigor and virility, and then to gain the rewards of the blessed without ever overcoming the lusts of the flesh, lusts that, with old age and death, cease to burn in the mortal soul. Thus Amulek continues: rein there can be "Do not procrastinate the day of your repentance until the end; for after this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed." There are no redeeming doctrines, no saving ordinances, no promised kingdoms of glory for such. Those who reject the gospel in this life—having heard the word from the lips of a legal administrator and having been made aware of its glories and truths—and who then accept it in the spirit world shall go to the terrestrial kingdom.

The fact is that those who reject and fight the truth in this life will continue to do so in the life to come. "That same spirit [of evil, wickedness, and rebellion] which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit [of evil, wickedness, and rebellion] will have power to possess your body in that eternal world." How could a just God let it be otherwise? If death erased the sins and feelings of mortality, this present life would cease to be a probationary estate, and the purposes of God would come to naught. Accordingly, as Amulek says, "If ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold, ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he doth seal you his; therefore, the Spirit of the Lord hath withdrawn from you, and hath no place in you, and the devil hath all power over you; and this is the final state of the wicked." (Alma 34:31-35.)
(Bruce R. McConkie, A New Witness for the Articles of Faith [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1985], 230.)

Likewise the Lord specifies the terms on which we receive the priesthood:
Therefore, all those who receive the priesthood, receive this oath and covenant of my Father, which he cannot break, neither can it be moved.
But whoso breaketh this covenant after he hath received it, and altogether turneth therefrom, shall not have forgiveness of sins in this world nor in the world to come. (D&C 84:40-41.)
(Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness [Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1969], .)

Behold, we are surrounded by demons, yea, we are encircled about by the angels of him who hath sought to destroy our souls. Behold, our iniquities are great. O Lord, canst thou not turn away thine anger from us? And this shall be your language in those days.

But behold, your days of probation are past, ye have procrastinated the day of your salvation until it is everlastingly too late, and your destruction is made sure; yea, for ye have sought all the days of your lives for that which ye could not obtain; and ye have sought for happiness in doing iniquity, which thing is contrary to the nature of that righteousness which is in our great and Eternal Head.(Helaman 13:37-38.)
(Joseph Fielding Smith, Answers to Gospel Questions, 5 vols. [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1957-1966], 1: 79.)

The foolish virgins were not averse to buying oil. They knew they should have oil. They merely procrastinated, not knowing when the bridegroom would come.

In the parable, oil can be purchased at the market. In our lives the oil of preparedness is accumulated drop by drop in righteous living. Attendance at sacrament meetings adds oil to our lamps, drop by drop over the years. Fasting, family prayer, home teaching, control of bodily appetites, preaching the gospel, studying the scriptures—each act of dedication and obedience is a drop added to our store. Deeds of kindness, payment of offerings and tithes, chaste thoughts and actions, marriage in the covenant for eternity—these, too, contribute importantly to the oil with which we can at midnight refuel our exhausted lamps.

Midnight is so late for those who have procrastinated.

But behold, your days of probation are past; ye have procrastinated the day of your salvation until it is everlastingly too late, and your destruction is made sure. (Helaman 13:38.)
(Spencer W. Kimball, Faith Precedes the Miracle [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1972], 255.)

The Savior portrays the prodigal son as applying wisdom before it is everlastingly too late, but only after suffering irreparable loss. When he came to himself and returned home, the prodigal received a royal welcome, but he did not regain his inheritance.

Now I know that sometimes the prodigal son story is used to point up the forgiving nature of the father and the jealous and unforgiving nature of the faithful son. But, the lesson of the prodigal's irretrievable loss should not be overlooked.

But remember that he that persists in his own carnal nature, and goes on in the ways of sin and rebellion against God, remaineth in his fallen state and the devil hath all power over him. (Mos. 16:5.)

This earth life is the time to repent. We cannot afford to take any chances of dying an enemy to God.

Accordingly it is important that all the sons and daughters of God upon this earth may "see with their eyes and hear with their ears and understand with their hearts" the purpose of life and their responsibilities to themselves and their posterity, and that they may determine to walks the uncrowded path which is strait and which is narrow. The time to quit evil ways is before they start. The secret of the good life is in protection and prevention. Those who yield to evil are usually those who have placed themselves in a vulnerable position.

Blessed and fortunate indeed are those who can resist evil and live all the days of their lives without yielding to temptation. But for those who have fallen, repentance is the way back. Repentance is always in order, even in the eleventh hour, for even that delayed action is better than none at all. The thief on the cross who said, "Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom" was far better off than the one who threw into the Lord's teeth, "If thou be the Christ, save thyself and us." (Luke 23: 39, 42.)

As we have seen, one can wait too long to repent. Many of the Nephites did. Of these, Samuel the Lamanite said:
But behold, your days of probation are past; ye have procrastinated the day of your salvation until it is everlastingly too late, and your destruction is made sure; yea, for ye have sought all the days of your lives for that which ye could not obtain; and ye have sought for happiness in doing iniquity, which thing is contrary to the nature of that righteousness which is in our great and Eternal Head. (Hel. 13:38. Italics added.)
(Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness [Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1969], .)

Having received the necessary saving ordinances-baptism, the gift of the Holy Ghost, temple ordinances and sealings-one must live the covenants made. He must endure in faith. No matter how brilliant was the service rendered by the bishop or stake president or other person, if he falters later in his life and fails to live righteously "to the end" the good works he did all stand in jeopardy. In fact, one who serves and then falls away may be in the category spoken of by Peter, "the dog turning to his vomit or the sow returning to her wallowing in the mire." (See 2 Pet. 2:22.)

And he that endureth not unto the end, the same is he that is also hewn down and cast into the fire, from whence they can no more return, because of the justice of the Father. (3 Ne. 27:17.)
(Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness [Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1969], .)

If one or both of these covenanting persons break that covenant by which they were sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, then the Spirit withdraws the seal and the guilty party, or parties, stand as if there had been no sealing or promise given. All covenants are sealed based upon faithfulness.

Should a person endeavor to receive the sealing blessing by fraud, then the blessing is not sealed, notwithstanding the integrity and authority of the person officiating. Instead of a blessing they will receive a cursing, the heaviest of all.fn Therefore, a person who may deceive the bishop or any other officer, will stand condemned before the Lord, for he cannot be deceived and justice will be meted out to all.

UNCLEAN SINNERS DAMNED. If a man thinks the Lord has placed upon him a seal by which he is exempt from his transgressions and is bound to inherit eternal life, no matter what he does, as long as he does not commit murder, or shed innocent blood, or deny the Holy Ghost, he is in the gall of bitterness, as a Nephite prophet would have said.fn

No man is promised salvation who is not cleansed from all his sins, and if a man sins deliberately, thinking he is exempt, he will be damned!

"For behold, justice exerciseth all his demands, and also mercy claimeth all which is her own; and thus, none but the truly penitent are saved. What, do ye suppose that mercy can rob justice? I say unto you, Nay; not one whit. If so, God would cease to be God."fn
(Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 3 vols., edited by Bruce R. McConkie [Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1954-1956], 2: 99.)

EVERY MAN IS GIVEN A CHANCE

This has nothing to do whatever with those who died without having an opportunity to hear the gospel. The Lord gives every man a chance of repentance and there is his justice. The millions who have died without hearing the name of Christ or having the privilege of receiving his gospel are to have that chance. Therefore, the Lord has revealed to us the work of salvation for the dead and this means that the dead who never had the opportunity to repent and to believe in Jesus Christ while they were living on this earth shall have the opportunity in the spirit world to receive it and the work will be done by proxy for them in the temples.

Now the Lord condemns those who have heard the gospel and reject it, and these are the people spoken of in Alma 34:31-35. This has reference only to those who have had the opportunity of hearing the truth and then reject it. Remember the Nephites at one time were all members of the Church. Amulek is speaking to those who have turned away from it. He is not speaking to the dead who never had an opportunity to hear. These people who had the warning and rebelled are left without excuse.
(Joseph Fielding Smith, Answers to Gospel Questions, 5 vols. [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1957-1966], 5: 100.)

This conference which convened first at the laying of the corner stones April 6th, continued on until Sunday April 11th. It was a glorious time of rejoicing. Part of the time bad weather prevailed; but the spirit pervading the conference was not dampened, and the saints went to their homes with a new light concerning the greatness of the plan of salvation, which extends out and reaches after every soul who never had the opportunity to know the truth in mortal life, but who may, on true repentance in the spirit world also obtain the exaltation through the vicarious work which the Lord provides
(Joseph Fielding Smith, Church History and Modern Revelation, 4 vols. [Salt Lake City: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 1946-1949], 4: 88.)

[Connie]

Just to address the question (i'll read through the quotes later):

I'm not sure what is meant by "true love." My understanding is that charity or the pure love of Christ is the highest form of love, and one does not need to be married to someone in order to demonstrate it.

As far as being able to save someone else. No. The only one who can save is Christ. Doing a quick search at LDS.org on "saving others" lead to some interesting stuff. It seems when people in the church talk of "saving someone" they don't mean we can literally save someone but that we can TEACH someone how they can be saved, i.e., through Christ. As demonstrated in this lesson from the Joseph F. Smith manual: http://lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideN ... 82620aRCRD

"I cannot save you; you cannot save me. No man can be a savior in this sense to any other man. Yet the man who has the testimony of the Spirit in his heart and who has a knowledge of the first principles of the Gospel may declare them to another, and by so declaring another soul may be convinced of the truth and be led to embrace it for himself. But it is his obedience to the Gospel and his own works of righteousness which save him, and not those of the man that bears testimony to him. It is only in this way that the man can be saved."

"The Lord help me to save my own, so far as one can help another. I realize I cannot save anybody, but I can teach them how to be saved. I can set an example before my children how they can be saved, and it is my duty to do that first. I owe it more to them than to anybody else in the world. Then, when I have accomplished the work I should do in my own home circle, let me extend my power for good abroad just as far as I can."

"Let us sustain Christ, his people, and his cause of righteousness and redemption; let us sustain one another in the right, and kindly admonish one another in regard to wrongdoing, that we may be friends and saviors on Mount Zion, one for another, and that we may help the weak and strengthen them, encourage the doubtful and bring light to their right understanding as far as it is possible, that we may be instrumental in the hands of God of being saviors among men. Not that we have power to save men. We have not; but we have power to show them how they can obtain salvation through obedience to the laws of God. We can show them how to walk in order to be saved, for we have the right to do that, we have knowledge and understanding as to how to do it, and it is our privilege to teach it … by example as well as by precept among our associates wherever we are in the world."
(all from Joseph F. Smith at the above link)

[MercynGrace]

Just to address the question (i'll read through the quotes later):

I'm not sure what is meant by "true love." My understanding is that charity or the pure love of Christ is the highest form of love, and one does not need to be married to someone in order to demonstrate it.

I'm not exactly clear on that either. I'm presuming AV means charity or as JS called it "perfect love" but I may be wrong.

As far as being able to save someone else. No. The only one who can save is Christ.

Agreed. We cannot save anyone. We can only lead them to salvation. It may be that I am reading AV's comments differently than those who disagree but I never thought she meant we could save each other in the sense of offering salvation. I thought she was saying that God was bound to honor the covenants of those who kept them. If I understand correctly, she is basing this on the promises made to parents by JS, BY, and others that their children would be theirs in the next life even if they strayed. That these wayward sheep would suffer the buffetings of Satan but ultimately be redeemed and the covenant of their faithful parents honored. AV will have to crrect me if I read her wrong. I recognize this is still a point of disputation but it isn't quite the same as "saving" in the sense of how the Savior does it.

[ndjili]

If I understand correctly, she is basing this on the promises made to parents by JS, BY, and others that their children would be theirs in the next life even if they strayed.

They can be claimed but not redeemed if they do not repent. The problem I was having is that AV seems to lay blame on divorced people who were left by their spouse and did in fact say it was adultery if they remarried. These people did not break their covenants but the other party did. When that happens I think that the person who kept their covenants and were divorced due to the other person not keeping their covenants, then that person should be free to find someone worthy. We all agree most divorce is evil and that the exceptions are rare..unfortunately many people are now being left for no other reason than the first party doesnt want to be married anymore. It's terrible. It's a curse on the family but I dont think anyone can blame the one who was left for such frivolity.

[MercynGrace]

The problem I was having is that AV seems to lay blame on divorced people who were left by their spouse and did in fact say it was adultery if they remarried.

She is basing this on the Savior's words in Matt 5:31-32. This Savior said this only applies if the cause of divorce is not adultery.
Elder James A. Cullimore addressed the Savior's explanation of divorce in GC:
Divorce is usually the result of one or both not living the gospel. I suppose this is the same reason divorce was finally permitted in the time of Moses, as referred to by the Savior as he answered the Pharisees, when he said: “Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.” (Matt. 19:8.) And so in our day members do not abide by the law of the gospel in its fullness, and, as in the day of Moses, divorce is permitted, when deemed necessary, although it was never intended to be.

AV is talking about a law we don't presently live - the law that was intended. But given the state of the world we live in, the Lord (quoting E. Oaks here) does not enforce the consequences of that celestial standard.

These people did not break their covenants but the other party did. When that happens I think that the person who kept their covenants and were divorced due to the other person not keeping their covenants, then that person should be free to find someone worthy.

That would certainly be just.

We all agree most divorce is evil and that the exceptions are rare..unfortunately many people are now being left for no other reason than the first party doesnt want to be married anymore. It's terrible. It's a curse on the family but I dont think anyone can blame the one who was left for such frivolity.

Most certainly in agreement.

[A Me]

Just to address the question (i'll read through the quotes later):

I'm not sure what is meant by "true love." My understanding is that charity or the pure love of Christ is the highest form of love, and one does not need to be married to someone in order to demonstrate it.

As far as being able to save someone else. No. The only one who can save is Christ. Doing a quick search at LDS.org on "saving others" lead to some interesting stuff. It seems when people in the church talk of "saving someone" they don't mean we can literally save someone but that we can TEACH someone how they can be saved, i.e., through Christ. As demonstrated in this lesson from the Joseph F. Smith manual: http://lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideN ... 82620aRCRD

"I cannot save you; you cannot save me. No man can be a savior in this sense to any other man. Yet the man who has the testimony of the Spirit in his heart and who has a knowledge of the first principles of the Gospel may declare them to another, and by so declaring another soul may be convinced of the truth and be led to embrace it for himself. But it is his obedience to the Gospel and his own works of righteousness which save him, and not those of the man that bears testimony to him. It is only in this way that the man can be saved."

"The Lord help me to save my own, so far as one can help another. I realize I cannot save anybody, but I can teach them how to be saved. I can set an example before my children how they can be saved, and it is my duty to do that first. I owe it more to them than to anybody else in the world. Then, when I have accomplished the work I should do in my own home circle, let me extend my power for good abroad just as far as I can."

"Let us sustain Christ, his people, and his cause of righteousness and redemption; let us sustain one another in the right, and kindly admonish one another in regard to wrongdoing, that we may be friends and saviors on Mount Zion, one for another, and that we may help the weak and strengthen them, encourage the doubtful and bring light to their right understanding as far as it is possible, that we may be instrumental in the hands of God of being saviors among men. Not that we have power to save men. We have not; but we have power to show them how they can obtain salvation through obedience to the laws of God. We can show them how to walk in order to be saved, for we have the right to do that, we have knowledge and understanding as to how to do it, and it is our privilege to teach it … by example as well as by precept among our associates wherever we are in the world."
(all from Joseph F. Smith at the above link)

All of those quotes are fantastic, Connie. Thanks for sharing them.

I agree. We can't save anyone, not even ourselves. Only Christ can save us.

It's really hard to figure out what Amore Vero means by any of the words she uses. I tried in the Women's Right to Vote thread to get some common ground when it came to definitions. She just stopped using the term in question altogether and used different words to describe what she was trying to say. When I pressed her too much on the issue, she said there was no way she could explain the concept to me because the Spirit would have to teach it to me.

I agree with that to a point, but Charity, or the True Love of Christ, has been talked about so much in the history of the world that it should be possible to at least define the terms we're using.

It was when she completely ignored my questions regarding when the Brethren ever equated divorce with abuse, acting as if I had completely accepted the very first part of her argument/explanation, that I realized it was better to focus my time on my own life and in talking with those who are more willing to actually discuss doctrine.