Rick Koerber and Producer Revolution..

[howdy123]

Anyone know if the foreclosure on Rick's mansion still happening? Is there a public place on foreclosures where one can find the debt owed on the house?

Rick's always taught that dollars follow value. I guess he wasn't producing much value.

[WYp8riot]

Now you might argue, that buying a $300,000 car is not being a wise steward, but who are you to judge? especially when the person you are judging is not "wasting" money on the car, but is actually gaining money by having the car, which means he can bless the lives of more people by having that car.


Brian, Help me understand How does Rick gain money with the car? Please explain? Is its value increasing? Or is the car gaining him money because it lures the people who desire to invest with hopes of ahieving such materialism?

I am not 100% convinced that wealth is all bad. I think of Lehi and family. Of course as far as we know their weath was used for righteous purposes. Additionally I believe it was not what I might consider "Idol" wealth, such as expensive toys.

[BackBlast]

Now you might argue, that buying a $300,000 car is not being a wise steward, but who are you to judge? especially when the person you are judging is not "wasting" money on the car, but is actually gaining money by having the car, which means he can bless the lives of more people by having that car.


Brian, Help me understand How does Rick gain money with the car? Please explain? Is its value increasing? Or is the car gaining him money because it lures the people who desire to invest with hopes of ahieving such materialism?

I am not 100% convinced that wealth is all bad. I think of Lehi and family. Of course as far as we know their weath was used for righteous purposes. Additionally I believe it was not what I might consider "Idol" wealth, such as expensive toys.

I'll explain how it works.

Some banks will loan 130-150% the value of a car. Kinda dumb, I know, but they'll do it. So you borrow 450k on your 300k car. You take 150k and invest it into a "holding fund" (Founder's Capital I believe was Rick's holding fund), which was described as hard money lender (loans out short term notes at high interest rates). So, your yearly interest on the car (450k loan at 5%) is 22.5k. Numbers I was given for typical holding fund returns is 20%-25%. So, returns on 150k @ 20% is 30k. You net 7.5k a year on interest (arbitrage), and if that pays more than your required equity payments, you cashflow from the car. In free capitalist lingo, the "price" is 300k, you leverage it for a 450k "liability", have 0 "debt", and the "cost" is 7.5k-depreciation/yr. If you need any of the lingo or mechanics further explained, I can do so.

Whenever Rick or Gabe was speaking of making money off expensive cars, home equity, etc (leveraged assets), this is what they were talking about. You get some kind of equity from the bank, and make arbitrage through the holding fund. There were two big holding funds I'm aware of. Ockham group (Rex Wheeler) had one, and Rick Koerber had the other. Both stopped paying out last year. I believe Ockham and Rex declared bankruptcy (or are trying to...). Rick is surrounded with rumor, innuendo, and anonymous accusers, which some don't appreciated being spread around so I won't go there.

Ultimately, their advertising of this ability was, indeed, an admitted enticement. To help attract listeners, followers, and those who dig a little deeper, investors. But, you can see, this method of making money depends on a "holding fund" producing fantastic returns. It appears that those returns didn't happen, or weren't sustainable, and the house came crashing down due to the poor foundation that wasn't performing as it was sold.

If you look at classic ponzi schemes, they center around using future investor income to pay current investors. You can continue to make your payments in this fashion as long as your investor base is growing. But at some point you "peak", or not enough new investors to keep your bank total growing, and it will collapse. If you want to read a ponzi artist's scam there is a self history of an online ponzi scheme here http://www.geocities.com/currintrading/ . It's an interesting tale of deception.

Now, were the holding funds ponzi schemes or honest business? Only their books can declare that. If they used investor money to pay "returns", ponzi. Though it is interesting to note, that both funds stopped paying after the ability to pull equity out of homes started to dry up. There is also the possibility that they started out honest, but then when the market started to turn they up and failed.

Hope that helps,

Brandon

[jbalm]

Just out of curiosity, what does the "Producer Revolution" actually produce?

[shadow]

If you look at classic ponzi schemes, they center around using future investor income to pay current investors. You can continue to make your payments in this fashion as long as your investor base is growing. But at some point you "peak", or not enough new investors to keep your bank total growing, and it will collapse.

Sounds like Social Security!!

[howdy123]

Just out of curiosity, what does the "Producer Revolution" actually produce?

That's the million dollar question.

My personal opinion was that they (The Producer Revolution and The Free Capitalist Project) produced nothing but a lot of hype and publicity.

I believe their main goal was to build a powerful, influential membership group. However, neither really seemed to get off the ground. They'd have a bunch of weekly membership meeting but those seemed to go away after awhile. The problem was that nothing really happened at these meetings other than talk. The groups never did anything and people would lose interest.

In the last 3 years or so Rick has reinvented these things at least 4 times because people kept canceling their membership. He sent an email out to his list earlier this year announcing that he had tinkered with things again.

[howdy123]

Also, it should be noted that Rick Koerber is mentioned in two articles in the latest issue of The Salt Lake City Weekly.

http://www.slweekly.com/index.cfm?do=ar ... 358783BA54

and

http://www.slweekly.com/index.cfm?do=ar ... 43FE90FD93

Both articles deal with the Utah Division of Securities (UDS).

From the first article:

The focus of the audit’s third case is Rick Koerber, a Utah County radio talk-show host and business owner who touts “ancient principles of prosperity” as the key to wealth. Koerber has long alleged being in the cross hairs of UDS investigators, especially Wayne Klein. On an Aug. 31, 2007, episode of his Free Capitalist AM radio show, Koerber claimed UDS was investigating him, brazenly insulting investigators by charging they had the “IQ of a rat” and challenging them: “I’m not asking any favors from listeners or government employees—I’ve got nothing to hide.”

Koerber is also being sued by an elderly couple in Colorado who named him as a “control person” at the head of a Ponzi scheme that allegedly conned them out of $170,000 from their home’s equity, credit card advances and meager retirement savings. (For more on Koerber, see “House of Cards,” March 6, City Weekly.)

In interviews with City Weekly in February, Koerber acknowledged sharing office space with former colleague Paul Bouchard who, sources indicate, was listed in the audit as the person who pleaded no contest to the sale of $11 million in unlicensed securities. Koerber says he had no idea Bouchard was committing fraud. Bouchard pleaded no contest to two second-degree felonies, including fraud, on Dec. 4, 2007.

Koerber concedes he is the subject of Case No. 3 in the audit, but is disappointed that auditors limited their examination of his case due to the ongoing fraud investigation. Koerber says his evidence confirms the audit’s criticism of heavy-handed UDS tactics. Before the audit began, Koerber was on the offensive, taking his evidence to key political players.

Koerber used his own political contacts to attack UDS. Counting on Rep. Carl Wimmer, R-Herriman, whom Koerber says was a former student of his American Founder’s University, Koerber was able to gain an audience with House Speaker Greg Curtis to push for expediting the legislative audit, which at the time had yet to be approved. Curtis spokesman Chris Bleak acknowledges the meeting occurred but denies it resulted in fast-tracking the audit.

Wimmer says he’s not ashamed of his friendship with Koerber and was happy to arrange meetings for him with house leadership and even with the attorney general’s office. Koerber presented his own evidence he had been collecting, alleging to have audio recordings proving UDS investigators had tried to coerce former Koerber employees into lying to build a case against him. Chief Deputy Attorney General Kirk Torgensen remembers meeting with Koerber and seeing transcripts of his evidence last spring. “I remember the transcripts he gave us,” Torgensen says. “And I remember they didn’t show what he said they would.” Koerber’s reaction: “Really? I hadn’t heard that. That’s disappointing.”

According to former Koerber employee Rachelle Taylor—the worker whom Koerber refers to when he says investigators tried to manufacture complaints against him—this story was a complete fabrication. “[UDS] never, ever tried to get us to lie,” Taylor says. Koerber denies this. “She can characterize it however she wants,” Koerber says. Rachelle and her husband Kyle couldn’t speak much of their dealings with Koerber because of the ongoing investigation—except to vent their frustrations. “He’s just playing the blame game,” Kyle Taylor says.

From the second article:

A retired police officer, Wimmer is best known among legislators for criminal justice bills. Securities regulation is a relatively new focus for him, but he does have some friendly advice. Rick “The Free Capitalist” Koerber, a Utah county businessman, radio talk show host and subject of several lawsuits and an ongoing UDS fraud investigation, has long claimed Wimmer as an ally. Wimmer says he was a former student of Koerber’s American Founders University but is now just a friend and an associate. (For more on the Wimmer/Koerber connection check out this weeks feature here.)



It’s safe to say that Koerber has Wimmer’s ear, especially considering that Wimmer’s plan for dissolving the current division borrows from Koerber’s own demands for change he has posted on his online The Free Capitalist Daily News, under an article about the legislative audit headed with a crudely drawn cartoon depicting Gov. Jon Huntsman Jr. asleep at the wheel of a car labeled “Utah Government.” Koerber announced in this article he will be posting an online petition to have UDS moved under the Lieutenant Governors office with all securities investigations being taken over by the Attorney General’s office. Koerber also demands that all business owners who plead guilty to fraud through settlement with UDS in the past be given full pardon because of the audit’s criticism of investigators’ methods.


Wimmer feels justified in supporting his friend Koerber. “As a legislator, if a person brings an issue to me I take no position on their issue at the time. I will look at the issue with an open mind,” Wimmer says. Koerber himself doesn’t see how there could be any conflict of interest either. “I’m a citizen of Utah,” Koerber says. “And I think all citizens have a right to see the Securities Division functioning fairly.”



Still, Wimmer realizes pushing for shelving Securities under the AG’s office might be considered a conflict of interest because of his relationship with Koerber. So Wimmer offers a solution: He’ll just have some other legislator run the bill for him.

[FTC]

there is a self history of an online ponzi scheme here http://www.geocities.com/currintrading/ . It's an interesting tale of deception.

ISK, CCP, WooHoo! That is the online game I play. WooT I love that game! Its called Eve: Online --> blatant advertising plug for my game . Just like the story tells, you can cheat, manipulate, steal, con, swindle, plunder, deceive, coerce, and scam your fellow player on Eve and the admins won't do a thing about it .... most of the time. Actually, Eve was setup like that from the beginning on purpose; as little game administrator involvement as possible. All the "order" in Eve is player created and maintaned .... most of the time.
I've been playing that game for nearly 3 years now and will probably play it till the day the game dies. Don't think that Eve is all bad, though. There are LOTS of people on there that have started up legitimate online businesses that do pay out returns on profits for what they do in the game. 20% return on investment is actually pretty common in many aspects. Players even go so far as to have corporate meetings, issue income statements, profit and loss reports, the whole shebang. Some people have fun building up online empires and will reward you for funding and investing in their online businesses. Most of all, I love the aspect that you can do dang near anything and no one but the person you do it to (and maybe an entire mob of his/her buddies ) will do a thing about it. The story in that link above isn't uncommon. There have literally been hundreds of similar stories happening in Eve over the years. I would be willing to bet that there is at least one example of that link happening on Eve every other week. No joke. As long as you don't exploit broken game coding too much, the admins will usually let you do whatever you want and let the other players deal out the justice. I love it!!
Another little tidbit about Eve, there are all kinds of mormons playing it. I did a search of other players one night when I was bored and put in names like Moroni and Nephi and Lehi, etc. etc. They were all there! Haha! Even Gadianton, Korihor, Kishkumen, Ammon and about 2 dozen other Book of Mormon names. Haha! Too classic.
Anyways, if any of you start playing, look me up: Xarkon

[BackBlast]

Just out of curiosity, what does the "Producer Revolution" actually produce?

There was a radio show, radio archives, webinars, DVDs.. Motivational media essentially.

Brandon

[FTC]

Welp, this one's been lost:

Joseph, Gabriel Summit Park City 1801 W Red Hawk Trail, Park City 12:00 PM $2,800,000.00

Trustee said it was sold back to the bank. $2.8 million - Ouch! If anybody's looking to do some development work, the bank will probably have it pretty cheap soon.

[shadow]

It's probably hard to play the game when the market is so manipulated as it is by most parties involved. We talk of secret combinations......the financial world is full of them. Some people try their best and think they have things figured out, only to fail.
I dabbled in the real estate market in the late 90's early 2000's. I'm glad I'm not playing that market now or I would be in deep doo-doo too.

[FTC]

The biggest reality check in all this is that individual people come along and think they can play this game like the pros. The pros being the banks and lenders. The banks and lenders have been doing the real-estate thing for multiple generations and passing the business from father to son to grandson to great-grandson. They've refined and re-refined processes, strategies, analysis, calculations, etc. etc. And they've done it with experts that have been working in their specific fields for their entire careers.
Then, along comes joe investor, who has maybe dabbled in real-estate for a few years, maybe over a decade, seen the hype on T.V., read some books, watched some videos, bs'd about real-estate with his buddies down at the bar (sorry, church socials for us mormons). And he/she thinks they can out do to major banks and mortgage brokers all by himself? Maybe hire a few of his buddies to help him out? It should really come as no surprise that people are getting fubar'd from a score of charlie fox-trots with all this real-estate "investing".
The reality locomotive is heading downhill at full speed and people are still standing on the tracks. Watch out!

[shadow]

This time around the pros are failing too. Indy-Mac, Bear Stearns and a bunch of other banks too, all because of real-estate. It's just that these guys get to have the tax payers bail them out.

[creator]

I'm just happy for the useful education I received from the FreeCapitalist Project, Rick Koerber, Producer Revolution, etc...

It helped me continue on this path of freedom that I am on, especially in the economic realm... I took the leap of faith and quit my job and started my own web design business.. and have done and learned so much that I wouldn't have otherwise done.

I think that an understanding of economic principles are lacking in a lot of those of us dedicated to the cause of liberty, and the result is we are less effective when we are tied down to our jobs and such.

[howdy123]

Another artlicle in the SL Weekly on Rick. They found out about his foreclosure and wrote an artlice on it.

You can read it at http://www.slweekly.com/index.cfm?do=ar ... 50DF9E8673

My favorite part of the article was the following:

According to a foreclosure sale ad from the July 19 Daily Herald, Koerber’s home will be auctioned off Aug. 13. Koerber says that, although he lives and works there, the home is owned by a former vice president of Koerber’s Franklin Squires Investments, Gabriel Joseph.

Because the house is not in his name, Koerber believes the issue doesn’t affect his credibility in teaching a foreclosure-avoidance class.

This is too funny.....except when you think about all the people who have been suckered by Koerber's "investments."

[FTC]

Because the house is not in his name, Koerber believes the issue doesn’t affect his credibility

That is extremely interesting. Technically, the house isn't in his name, just the name one of his co-owners of Frankling Squires. However, on an email March 25, 2008, Jake Dayton (husband of another co-owner) specifically states "Rick's home in Alpine, Utah". If Rick owns another home in Alpine, Utah other than one going to foreclosure, could someone point it out? Speaking of the Alpine home, Rick's blog of January 31st, he claims "I recently had a select group of students up to my home in Alpine, “the mansion” we call it". The blog contained a picture of the Alpine home going to foreclosure. What's even more interesting is that blog is now not to be found. Maybe just a computer glitch? If so, I'll edit this post accordingly. You might be able to catch a google cache of the blog like I did.

Also from the news article:

Koerber is confident from his five years of teaching real-estate investment

This is exactly what I was talking about. Rick claims 5 years of teaching experience, NOT successfull hands-on doing experience.
As a side note, watch out for the use of loaded language when someone is trying to get you to buy into what they offer. Manipulating words, phrases and grammer is a common tactic used by destructive cults (link) to sink hooks deep into people's emotions, typically to get at their wallets. Listen very carefully and critically, and distance your emotions, when evaluating things he says.
Anyways, Rick thinks, with his 5 years of teaching real-estate, he can beat the big wigs that have been buying and selling real-estate successfully for literally more than a century. Most likely, Rick will pocket far more money from teaching others what they want to hear about real-estate than he ever will from actually investing in real-estate. Just watch any real-estate "teacher" out there as they are hawking their wares to you. What are they trying to sell you on? Actual real-estate investments that they want to work with you? Or just selling you their thoughts on what they think might be good ideas about real-estate investing?
Overall, it really wouldn't surprise me if he does get some one hit wonders. Everybody gets some of those during their lifetime. To apply a classic quote from Han Solo in Star Wars: "Good against remotes is one thing. Good against the living, that's something else." There's also another old saying: Those who do, do; those who can't, teach.

[shadow]

That is extremely interesting. Technically, the house isn't in his name, just the name one of his co-owners of Frankling Squires. However, on an email March 25, 2008, Jake Dayton (husband of another co-owner) specifically states "Rick's home in Alpine, Utah". If Rick owns another home in Alpine, Utah other than one going to foreclosure, could someone point it out? Speaking of the Alpine home, Rick's blog of January 31st, he claims "I recently had a select group of students up to my home in Alpine, “the mansion” we call it". The blog contained a picture of the Alpine home going to foreclosure. What's even more interesting is that blog is now not to be found. Maybe just a computer glitch? If so, I'll edit this post accordingly. You might be able to catch a google cache of the blog like I did.

I don't see a problem with him referring to it as his home. It is his home. Was he supposed to say "lets go to the rental that I live in"? I rented a house for a few years when I was going to school. I always called it my home/house. Even the house I live in now technically belongs to the mortgage company. I don't have the deed to it. I pay a monthly payment so I can live there. When I go to work I tell my wife I'm going to my office. I don't own it though, I rent. You're stretching on this one FTC (and there's really no reason to).

[creator]

If Rick Koerber is doing something wrong/illegal/violating principle I don't see a problem with pointing that out, especially if you have evidence/proof/facts...

BUT when you state opinion like it's fact that seems a lot like defamation of character / slander / libel...

an example:

That is extremely interesting. Technically, the house isn't in his name, just the name one of his co-owners of Frankling Squires. However, on an email March 25, 2008, Jake Dayton (husband of another co-owner) specifically states "Rick's home in Alpine, Utah".

It is his home... who cares if it's in someone elses name? That's a real estate strategy used by some people... there's nothing wrong with it.

Rick claims 5 years of teaching experience, NOT successfull hands-on doing experience

You seem to be implying that Rick has no hands-on real estate experience? I would argue otherwise... he has a lot of experience doing... which includes successes and failures...

Is it a sin to fail? I think not.

I have learned a lot from Rick Koerber. Do I believe everything he teaches? NO! If I believe he is in violation of principle will I point that out? YES... and if I do I will be sure to have information to back up my claims.

I hope in the future you'll keep this in mind: If Rick Koerber is doing something wrong/illegal/violating principle I don't see a problem with pointing that out, especially if you have evidence/proof/facts... but if there is no violation of principle or no law broken, why point it out like it's a bad thing??? Be careful not to fall into the trap of committing: "defamation of character / slander / libel"

[Jenny]

This is an interesting thread. By nature I tend to think most people have good intentions. That said we do fail at times to meet those intentions. My concern in this type of thing is that if people are getting hurt then there is something wrong. I have always felt that in good business everyone wins and all are satisfied with the outcome. Real estate lending took a big turn and that has caused all kinds of problems especially in cases where property values were inflated or over burdened with notes beyond their value. My guess is the intention to pay them all back was there but things didn't go as planned and there was too much left over to take care of. The problem is that yes the LLC owns the property but when the loan isn't paid who holds the bag? And what about the notes on the property who holds the bag on those? Someone does. Now if that someone isn't you or me we don't get too excited but if it is then we may get a bit worked up over it all. I personally know a couple who got caught in the middle of this. They had the best intentions but the investments they were told would cover their payments aren't and they are left with owing for a property they can't pay for. Not a fun position at all. I do want to point out that everybody was happy enough to take the money when things were good and to do the deals while the cash flowed. Speculation is always a risk. That is the reality of it and Brigham Young warned about a spirit of speculation taking hold of the saints. My guess is that listening to the prophet will save us grief in the end. Even if the short term looks pretty rosy by speculating a huge return. Someone on this thread earlier said that giving to the poor was a responsibility and stewardship of wealth. I would agree with that. Christ taught us that if we forget the poor we are under condemnation.

[FTC]

Tunnel vision, people. The point isn't whether the house is his or not. Nor who lives there or not. The point is that when times are good, Rick doesn't hesitate to make himself appear as large as possible, most often making claim to material things to accomplish that. When times become sour, suddenly he is trying to distance himself from all the prior flamoyance that isn't holding the enticement any longer. Somehow, I'm going to have to judge the guy and how I'm going to be involved with him and/or associates, and I'm choosing his actions to base that on. Rick has already told stories of a prior time when his investment activities didn't produce as well as planned. This is the second time that similar results have happened. From these happenings, I conclude that being involved with investments with him will be all well and dandy as long as the good times roll. Once the road becomes rough, Rick, based on his past/recent actions, will proceed to distance himself from any non-enticing activies we might have both been involved in. Even if his distancing is to my demise.
Screw. That.
Investing without a crysal ball can be tricky enough as it is. The hope is that when you involve additional partner(s), it will increase the production of beneficial outcome. If someone is going to involve me in their investments - even if its just their investment ideas, or they get involved with mine, I'm going to expect them to stick along for the entire ride until the final conclusion. And that they eat just as much of any bitter fruit as I might have to (as long as our involvements are roughly equal).
Ya never know though. Rick may change his tune. I don't see that happening any time soon, and quite unlikely before the end of this year. The dirge of the type of investments that Rick is current involving himself in is going to be long and dismal. Until there is a change in tune, you won't find this rat marching along. There is still quite a ways to go before all of this is said and done. We'll see how Rick and associates fare in the years to come. Until all the cards have been played, I have vastly more important activities, responsibilities, duties and stewardships to focus my resources on than what Rick and associates are involved in. Especially if involvment would require my financial resources.
That is my analysis of becoming involved in investments with Rick and/or associates based on what has been provided. If there is further information to clarify, then they are free and more than welcome to make it available. By all means, lay out all the cards on the table. If all is good, would it not lead to future and continued.... producing? Typically, the reason that people, groups, organizations and/or governments withhold information is that it is detrimental to their activities. People have been griping about that on this discussion forum since the beginning.

[shadow]

The point isn't whether the house is his or not. Nor who lives there or not.

Hmmmm, then why did YOU make that point initially?
I agree with your investing critique. But many investments are tanking now, not just Koerbers. Heck, even my life insurance (Lincoln Benefit) policy is dwindling into nothingness. Soon the whole country and the world will tank, probably because of Koerber I'm sure.

[howdy123]

It doesn't matter whether or not Rick called it his house. I don't see anything wrong with him doing that. He lived there and (I assume) was making rent or lease payment to Gabe. However, since know its public knowledge that Gabe owns
it, this raises some questions that are worth asking.

Why didn't Rick buy the house himself since he claimed to be rich and successful? Least anyone forget, it wasn’t that long ago that Rick boasted of successfully acquiring $100 million in real estate. Why was he unable to buy his “Alpine Mansion”? Why did he let Gabe do it?

Anyone have an answer?

[FTC]

The point isn't whether the house is his or not. Nor who lives there or not.

then why did YOU make that point initially?

Probably because I hadn't explained myself as clearly as I thought I had. Come on! Can't you just read my mind across the internet??

Yea, I hear ya on how lots and lots of investments are tanking all over the place. Realize, though, that that is not a bad thing. If you truly believe in what you are invested in, and your analysis of those investments are as spot on as you can determine, then the obvious course of action is to buy more. This is a simple and obvious strategy in the stock market. The ticker price may be heading down, but if the company is strong with its financials, management, productivity, future sales contracts, joint ventures, partnerships, etc. etc., then when the ticker price is going down, its the best time to be buying more. As long as all the analysis holds, in the next several years, all the low buying you did will return quite handsomely. Real-estate, for example, if you're not buying now, and over the next few years, then you're gonna be wondering what the smeg were you thinking (or not thinking) several years from now, as you will have missed the boat. The current economy "crisis" is one of the greatest buying opportunities of the past 100+ years. All the media hub-bub, I love it! Please, please keep preaching doom and gloom. It does exactly what I want it to - bring prices into my price range. However, if you were buying at the peak of the hill in the most recent past few years, jumping on the bandwagon too late. The whole nation recently hit a peak and the peak was just about as high as it historically has been thru all the past dozens of peaks. Thus, if you bought in the most recent past years (Frankling Squires, et.al., bought alot in the most recent past years), the best you can hope for is to break even several years from now. That's IF you can time things just right, and convince someone to buy from you, right at the highest point of the next peak before it tumbles all down again. As I pointed out, and shadow followed up with, even the major banks/lenders are having trouble doing that. Many outright can't. Those banks/lenders, have hundreds of years, and thousands of man - not just hours, but years - exerpeince. Rick and associates believe they can outbeat them all with just 5 years of real-estate investment teaching experience (that's the claim that was made in the Salt Lake Weekly article referenced a few posts back).
In any case, if you bought shortly before that most recent past peak, you won't have many resources to do much buying now when things are prime for that. And you won't be able to refinance or liquidate at enough of a profit to have the cash to buy now when it's low. Eventually you will, but at that point everything will be on the way up and you will have missed the boat.... again. That is the biggest problem with lots of investors across all avenues of investments. I did just that same thing myself and am now stuck with a house that I could have and should have sold. I just got my most recent county assessment and they stated that my house is $50,500 less than it was last year. WooT! Oh well, I was planning on living in it anyways, doing some little upgrades here and there over the years.

Anyways, back on topic. As howdy123 brought up several questions - like I said, lay out all the cards on the table. If everything is good and well, if all the financials, management, productivity, partnerships, etc. etc. are strong, then there is nothing to hide and/or withhold, and it should logically increase value which will increase productivity which will lead to further investors joining, more cash coming in to buy when its low, so on and so forth. You get the idea. I would think that Rick and his associations would be advertising and marketing like crazy their investing prowess, backing it up with irrefutable documentation, financials and business plans, to get more investors contributing cash so as to buy when things are low. Instead, they appear to be trying to fly under the radar. There's a reason things are kept hidden, and, more often than not, those reasons are not for the benefit of those stuck on the outside. Everyone on this board should know that; its a constant beef we continuously bring up with government(s) in general.

[shadow]

Anyways, back on topic. As howdy123 brought up several questions - like I said, lay out all the cards on the table.

Same goes with any financial investment too I suppose. But it's up to the one investing to get that info prior to him/her placing any money with that investment company. Now that things aren't looking good people are asking questions they should have asked previous to placing money with them. When the investments were paying out did people complain? I doubt it.
Disclaimer: The 03 Yukon my wife drives is actually owned by a credit union. I don't want to mislead anyone here.

[howdy123]

Just an update on Rick Koerber via the newspaper of Clinton, Mississsippi....

http://www.clintonnews.com/apps/pbcs.dl ... /1001/NEWS

Clinton resident Nicholas Coughlin has sued the Provo, Utah-based investment company that purchased the home shortly before it burned in July 2006, contending the company owes him a hefty commission for his role in the home's sale.

Coughlin filed suit against FranklinSquires Companies LLC, Hill Erickson LLC and the owner of the companies, Rick Koerber.

FranklinSquires, which is being sued by dozens of companies and individuals in several states, is the subject of a Utah Division of Securities investigation, a February story in the Provo-based Daily Herald newspaper detailed....

The case now is in limbo.

It was set for trial in August, but postponed after U.S. District Judge Henry Wingate granted an Aug. 11 request from defense attorneys Eddie Abdeen of Madison and Paul Randall of Ridgeland to withdraw from the case. They said in the request they believe FranklinSquires and Hill Erickson "have ceased business operations."

Efforts to reach Franklin Squires and Koerber were unsuccessful. A whitepages.com listing for FranklinSquires is a disconnected number. The number listed on the business' Web site does not accept incoming calls. A whitepages.com home listing for Koerber is the same disconnected number as the business.

Looks like principles govern after all.