Rick Koerber and Producer Revolution..

[AussieOi]

Security is a myth. The only real security is through the gospel and certainly there is no security in Government and any organization that represents and or upholds the abominable church of the Devil.

We agreed to come here parting on Christs side to defend Free agency. When we uphold anything that is against that we are upholding the great abominable church. We are serving two masters.

Agree emphatically

Which is why I say ANY lds who joins todays (esp US) military is denying the gospel
Just mercenaries and jack boots for Satan

And why I fail to understand how ANY lds who consider these Israeli war crimes as acceptable

And why an lds standing in line with other black suited "policemen" with their plastic tie hand cuffs enforcing these "protest zones" and enforcing (particular) patriot act provisions is not our friend

[CHH]

Agree emphatically

Which is why I say ANY lds who joins todays (esp US) military is denying the gospel
Just mercenaries and jack boots for Satan

And why I fail to understand how ANY lds who consider these Israeli war crimes as acceptable

And why an lds standing in line with other black suited "policemen" with their plastic tie hand cuffs enforcing these "protest zones" and enforcing (particular) patriot act provisions is not our friend

Oh come on AussieOi. They are just doing their jobs and trying to make the world a safer place, you know, like Satan did in the war in heaven. And those spirits that choose Satan's plan were not evil. They were just uninformed or just trying to do what was right or ignorant or made a few bad choices. We should not paint those spirits with a broad brush. They are, after all, our brothers and sisters.

Forgiveness and mercy is what we should give them.

[WYp8riot]

This is a great quote from Birchers signature.


“'Now there are those among us who are trying to serve the Lord without offending the devil.' This is a contradiction in terms." -James E Faust

[FTC]

It appeares Rick Koerber has relaunched FranklinSquires.

http://franklinsquires.com

On the new website, it states that they will resume operations on January 12th. Anybody follow up on that?
Also, Rick stated that he will begin "disseminating" his secret recordings. Whatever disseminate means in his language; he is quite notorious for redefining standard definitions in favor of those that suite his whims. Use of word manipulation is a common cult technique, among other similarities: Cult Checklist

[howdy123]

On the new website, it states that they will resume operations on January 12th. Anybody follow up on that?

Having worked for Rick, I'm really good at "rick speak." Let me enlighten everyone else.

Rick writes: In a modest, concerted effort to rebuilt, effective January 12th, 2009—which is just over five years since its founding, FranklinSquires Companies, LLC will resume new business operations.

What he really means is this: This is pure posturing on my part. Let's face it, I'm the only one, aside from my wife, who believes in me. But maybe if I post this, it will get some of the people off my back who are asking for their money. I've fooled them once. Maybe I can do it again.

Rick writes: In February of 2008 the company closed is primary location and announced that it would discontinue new business operations. For the past ten months FranklinSquires has focused primarily on managing the fallout from the present Real Estate / Credit Crisis being felt all across America and beyond.

What he really means is this: I'm throwing up another smoke screen. I told the Daily Herald back in February 2008 -- a full seven months before the credit crisis took hold -- that it was those damn government bureaucrats who shut me down. Then this real estate thing happened. It was a godsend because everyone knows about it. If I tie my company's financial problems to the real estate bubble, then I look like a victim and people will feel sorry for me. Besides, some prodcuer once said that if you tell a lie long enough, people will begin to believe it. That's what I'm hoping for here.

Rick writes: During 2008 FranklinSquires assumed operational control of Founders Capital, LLC, Hill Erickson, LLC and New Castle Holdings, LLC. This direction is expected to continue while FranklinSquires also resumes business consulting, real estate activities, and gold/silver minting.

What Rick really means is this: Hey, if I can still get people to show up to my Alpine mansion for my seminars, I'm going to keep doing the same crap I've been dishing out from day one. Another prodcuer once said, "There's a sucker born every minute." It's very true.

Rick writes: The new business activity of the company is expected to be modest and oriented towards facilitating FranklinSquires accomplishing the following priorities, 1) Resolve all outstanding financial concerns 2) Resolve all outstanding obligations of a non-financial nature 3) Build a foundation for long-term progress and achievement.

What Rick really means is this: I need to squeeze more money from more people. I'll tell you what, if you invest your life savings/home equity with me, I'll give you 5% a month back on that investment.

~sarcasm rocks~

[Tommie Pisciotta]

Just to make sure i have this straight, gabriel joseph has not stepped up for a chat, neither has rickie, rick, claud, claudia, what ever other names koerber is going by there days, have not stopped by here to put their 2 cents in? (well, if i find koerber had 2 cents, i will take him to court for one of those!)

If any one of there...........gosh, i hate to call them people, they are leaches on society, and will continue to suck any man, woman or child out of the blood of their lives.........oops, back to what is was going to say, if rickie, either of his wives (this is utah, correct), mother, cousin, or any partner, cell mate, or anyone with a name that can be verified, would like to chat about the basic of basic princples that i believe went south.......Please, just let me know! I am here, or, claudius, you have my number, call me?

Lastly, if you or your comrads do not want to discuss how you and associates live, spent, what money went to who....hmmmm or is it whom........well, if you do not want to talk about any of those actions, how about talking about homosexual organizations on high school and college campuses........we had those baptist bastard in st louis this past week.............shure hope their days in st louis this past week will be very like their lives in hell.....lots of good people on their left yelling at them about the truth.....

[Tommie Pisciotta]

CALLING THE KOERBER CLAN, EITHER WIFE, MOTHER, OR THE PATRIARC HIMSELF, RICK KOERBER TO COME AND SPEND A FEW OF YOUR GREATLY IMPORTANT DAY OF RUNNING MAJOR COMPANIES FROM YOUR BASEMENT TO TAKE THIS SIMPLE, SMALL AMOUNT OF TIME TO EXPLAIN THERE SIMPLE, DOWN TO THE POINT QUESTIONS..........NO LAWYERS, JUDGES, JUST PEOPLE WHO ARE YOUR PIERS, HAVE WORKED FOR YOU, AND HAVE MADE MONEY FOR YOU ASKING YOU SOME VERY SIMPLE QUESTIONS................HOW COULD THIS BE WRONG?

couple of quick questions for rickie:

1. Does your mommy call you rickie, claudie, what?
2. why did you not pay your taxes?
a. why did you not send me a 1099 form for the last year interest was paid to me?
b. was it because you said, "no, that was not interest, it was paying you back your principal".....lol!

Ok, here is the big one.................................
3. Did you ever use money collected money from one person, only to turn around and pay back a past debt in wy. with it, or pay interest to someone involved with franklinsquires, founders, founder capital, mcguire group, or any of the other companies you are involved with????????? or, are you saying only business profits were used to pay these prom. notes??????????? But you showed a loss for 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008..........where did the profit come from?
4. Name the last person you took new money from, and give me a little course of where that money went on rides to? where did it go? who got it? where is it now?


This is the truth, that is all i want to know.......i am sure many here would like to know that also? i am sure YOU COULD NOT CARE AT ALL WHAT SOMEONE ELSE WOULD SAY ABOUT YOU, IF YOU TOLD THE TRUTH!!!!!!!!!!!!
Jesus Christ, my Lord would like to know the answers to these questions, i am asking for Him, and for all the religions, christians, catholic, jewish people, morman, black, white, red, yellow, orange, lefts, rights, gays, lesbians, homosexualsx, or traditional m/f couples............

[buffalo_girl]

Here's the latest news I could find. It looks like 'sorry' isn't in his emotional repertory...

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/mobile/532 ... s.html.csp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Headphone]

This looks to be the most recent for news. Gabriel Joseph has been indicted.

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/money/5352 ... d.html.csp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Headphone]

Found this on the cougarboard. Thought it was an interesting read. It originated on someone's blog which no longer exists.

Why Rick Koerber is a modern day Korihor

AlpineCoug wanted me to post this. It is from his blog.

"Recently events in the news surrounding the indictment of Rick Koerber the founder of Franklin Squires and the "Free Capitalist" movement have gained attention from the general public. He is accused of running a ponzi scheme and ending up losing 100 million of others money.

If you don't know or are not remembering Rick, you may recall that he posted billboards along I-15 with stories that read "I made $42k using my 720 credit score" or had a huge picture of a guy with a goatee (Rick himself) with the caption "I am the Free Capitalist".

According to reports that I have heard, more than 700 households along the Wasatch front have been affected by giving money. Many of those have lost everything. Scores of homes have been foreclosed as a direct result of the Franklin Squires program. Meanwhile Rick claimed a regular listening audience of 25,000 registered listeners on his daily radio show.

If you live in Utah, I can say without a doubt your house value has been affected by the teachings of Rick Koerber.

If you have not heard yet here are the stories:

See the following links below or cut and paste them into your browser.


http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=6626449" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=148&sid=6614193" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

For Background:

http://www.franklinsquires.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://freecapitalist.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://freecapitalistdaily.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

My purpose in writing is to share what I have come to know with a Mormon audience and any interested non Mormon. I write to those that have some understanding or know someone who has an understanding of what Rick was teaching.

I lived in Alpine. I know Rick. I was consulted by many for my opinion of this program. I also know one of the founding 11 of Founders Capital. This particular individual was a member of our ward for a time. I know others who followed him. He shared with me the program before there was a "Free Capitalist" movement. I told them all from the very beginning that it would collapse some day.

I fought this program and more importantly the philosophy for 4 years. In the end, some listened and some didn't.

Many have asked me about this. I wish to give myself some closure on the issue and share a few things that I learned in the process. I know his program (scheme) inside and out.
I don't want to talk about that. I want to talk about the real deception.

The most difficult part about this situation is the ideological, philosophical, and spiritual deception. This all begins with a self-deception that was perpetuated first with Rick, then through Franklin Squires, and the connected groups. What made the "movement" dangerous is that they taught a very convincing philosophy not just a greed-driven scheme. They believe the philosophy, they are self-deceived that there is nothing wrong and that they are persecuted.

Rick piped the message across the airwaves on his radio programs everyday. He was very convincing and so intelligent that he could talk circles around anyone that decided to oppose him. He believes what he teaches and that is what makes him dangerous. After listening to Rick for many hours I decided to figure out why this did not sit well with me. Here is what I learned. All of this is based on Rick's writings or his radio programs, on in particular called "God is Capitalist".

The philosophy and patterns can be summarized in this way:

1) There is a basic pattern that is at the root of his belief system. It goes like this: the constitution is inspired and therefore is scripture, therefore the men who wrote were inspired, therefore the men who inspired them were inspired. With this as your core belief then it is possible for Rick to use Adam Smith & his book "The Wealth of Nations" or the writings that follow suit such as those of Ayn Rand for the interpretation of scripture.

Ergo, the capitalistic ideas of self interest, exchange of value, deserving wealth (if you are smart enough to get it), are now all ways to understand God. Therefore God is a capitalist and capitalism is his method of economics.

My belief: There is a very subtle danger here. The founding fathers were inspired, however, nowhere does scripture say that the constitution was or is scripture. While there were many inspired writings that may have contributed to the thoughts of the founding fathers it is incumbent upon us to continue to use the scriptures to interpret them and not the other way around, thus, reinforcing from whence the truth comes and not recreating it. When you go so far as to begin interpreting scripture with the humanist philosophers you get "the philosophies of men mingled with scripture". That begins a very dangerous pattern of deception where man redefines God and as Boyd K Packer says "(when) the channels of revelation are reversed...we lose our bearings" because we have created an alternate gospel driven by our desire to justify our actions with the philosophies of men. Joseph Smith taught that in the Lectures on Faith that there were three things that are required for any being to exercise faith in God: "First, The idea that he actually exists. Secondly, A correct idea of his character, perfections and attributes. Thirdly, An actual knowledge that the course of life which he is pursuing, is according to his will." If an individual redefines or accepts and incorrect definition of God then like and uneven or cracked foundation that faith will not hold the weight of the house built upon it. It becomes absolutely critical that we get his "character, perfections, and attributes" right. The nature of God is also the very thing that the adversary will try to alter first, if he can, he has help to create his religion of deception.

2) Rick taught his followers that covenants with God were nothing more than an exchange of value or as he liked to call them "transactions" (ie: God gives us eternal life for us giving him glory). In this "exchange of value" or "transaction" Rick teaches that since this is the way God operates we don't have to feel guilty for getting wealth when we take advantage of someone else because we can and should act in our own self interest. Futhermore, If a man gets more wealth then he deserves it because he was better at negotiating or structuring deals than someone else. In other words, all the "gifts of God" (intelligence, understanding, materials, etc) are nothing more than earnings in Gods economy and show a particular man's superiority.

My belief: Truths combined with lies (more lies than truths). I could elaborate at length however, simply put Korihor taught the same thing: Alma 30:17 "...every man fared in this life according to the management of the creature; therefore every man prospered according to his genius, and that every man conquered according to his strength; and whatsoever a man did was no crime."

Lets see where this leads us. If this "exchange of value" or "transaction" was real I could hold out for a better deal and negotiate with God. I hope this is obvious, I can't leverage God though my holding back his Glory in exchange for blessings like a capitalist can if he has something valuable. All things belong to God. God's glory comes from love of his children and is not dependent on my choices. He does not cease to be glorious if I don't keep my end of my covenants. Would God be in a never ending state of misery and darkness having no glory if suddenly all his children decided to break their covenants? That thought makes reason stare.

Finally, in a description of Zion, D&C 82:19 says: "...every man seeking the interest of his neighbor, and doing all things with an eye single to the glory of God." While I am terribly self interested, he is not and I am to put off that self interest and follow His example of love.

3) To Rick the government is the enemy and crimps their capitalistic style because according to Rick it is the message of the Book of Mormon and Ezra Taft Benson that we are at war with the socialists or "comi-czars".

My belief: Dallin H Oaks nailed it when he said:

"During the past half-century many Americans, including many Latter-day Saints, have been vigorously and successfully involved in defending our way of life against communism. Perhaps a preoccupation with turning communism away from the front door has made us vulnerable to the corruption of materialism slipping in through the back door. Communism is evil because it deprives people of their freedom and teaches that there is no God. Materialism is evil because it corrupts people in the use of their freedom and substitutes the god of property for the God of heaven."

We are at war with a an enemy that can change directions and forms without limits, capitalist or comunist. Satan is cunning.

4) Rick spoke of all his teachings being rooted in ancient principles and timeless truths. Yet, he and his followers taught people to use their credit score to borrow money that they could not repay by stating their income as more than it was and justified it with scripture.

My belief: Capitalism is based on trust and if you want to destroy capitalism the best way to do it is with deception. Case in point: the current mortgage crisis of which this scheme is a part, no one has trust in mortgages because many are based in lies. Somewhere along the way, the timeless principle of being honest was lost in the self deception that it is ok to use others as objects to get what they wanted. As the Book of Mormon teaches, "all are fallen, yea all are lost" and we are totally dependent on God therefore don't deserve anything and God "lends (us) breath". Being fallen, it is by His mercy that we live and therefore we should look at others as equal or equally dependent on Christ and if we "are in the service of our fellow beings we are only in the service of our God" or in other words "if ye have done it unto the least of these my brethren ye have done it unto me" (King Benjamin; Mosiah 2-3). Lying destroys the fabric of society. When it is done, it is done especially unto God. No man is an object to God.

5) Much of what is coming out happened years ago. The reason that it has taken this long for Rick to get indicted is because he designed the system to begin with to pass the responsibility to someone else. The founding eleven men of founders capital had a pact of loyalty and were responsible for recruiting others to use their credit to get money. Those that they recruited then in turn recruited others. The whole system was dependent on more and more people coming into the fold. The only way that the system would work was if more and more people came into the fold. All the recruits did the dirty work. Rick always has blamed them for doing the things that he taught them to do.

My belief: In the end Rick's invitation and structure was not much different than Giddianhi head of the Gadianton robbers writing to Lachoneous saying in 3 Nephi 3:9 & 7:

"And behold, I am Giddianhi; and I am the governor of this the secret society ...; which society and the works thereof I know to be good; and they are of ancient date and they have been handed down unto us...(therefore) yield yourselves up unto us, and unite with us and become acquainted with our secret works, and become our brethren that ye may be like unto usnot our slaves, but our brethren and partners of all our substance."

Rick will tell you that what he did, preached, and believed was good. He beileives that. He is self-decieved. The adversary is cunning enough and has enough deceptions at his disposal that he can mingle these ideas into good things like a belief in the value of our constitution and our way of life. He is great at making good things look bad and bad things look good. The result is still a lie.

Conclusion: To all those who think that Mormonism has something to do with this, I hope you can see that the Book of Mormon cuts through this kind of deception with a knife and that if we are prone to be deceived it is because of our pride and love of riches and not because the teachings of the church are wrong.

Rick will not make it out of this without paying an enormous price and he won't leave his self-deceived state until he repents and admits the deception of philosophy. I hope he does for his and his families sake, however I have a feeling that we will see the fulfillment of the words of Mormon in editorializing on the fall of Korihor when he said in Alma 30:60 "And thus we see the end of him who perverteth the ways of the Lord; and thus we see that the devil will not support his children at the last day..." In that same chapter we find out why Korihor did what he did: "But behold, the devil hath deceived me; for he appeared unto me in the form of an angel, and said unto me: Go and reclaim this people, for they have all gone astray after an unknown God...and he taught me that which I should say."

One last thing that I would like to say. I am not a socialist, nor am I against capitalism. I believe that government should be smaller than it is. I believe that liberty is a "God given" gift that no man has the right to take away, yet, it can be given away by decetpion. That brings up something that over-arches politics, government, and society. I believe what John Adams said it best in a letter to his wife Abigail, "We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a religious and moral people. It is wholly inadequate for the government of any other."

The lesson to be learned? I hope when we think of liberty we stay grounded in morality. I hope when we seek to defend the constitution and that we worship the God that inspired it and not the document itself nor the founding fathers or philosophers of the time. I hope that we remember that our only protection against our enemies from within or without comes through righteousness and when the moral backbone of society is broken, so is the form of government and there is nothing except repentance that will change that. Not politics, not economics, not legislation, not arms, nothing! The greatest protection against this kind of thing is the individual righteousness of the people and the subsequent blessings of God.

Remembering that in Moroni 7 in a discousre on Charity Mormon wrote that "charity seeketh not her own" is a wonderful guide to maintaining a free society.

I hope we learn."

http://www.thetopsofthemountains.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[linj2fly]

My belief: Dallin H Oaks nailed it when he said:

"During the past half-century many Americans, including many Latter-day Saints, have been vigorously and successfully involved in defending our way of life against communism. Perhaps a preoccupation with turning communism away from the front door has made us vulnerable to the corruption of materialism slipping in through the back door. Communism is evil because it deprives people of their freedom and teaches that there is no God. Materialism is evil because it corrupts people in the use of their freedom and substitutes the god of property for the God of heaven."

Spot on.

[HeirofNumenor]

This was great! Thank you!

Found this on the cougarboard. Thought it was an interesting read. It originated on someone's blog which no longer exists.

Why Rick Koerber is a modern day Korihor

AlpineCoug wanted me to post this. It is from his blog.

"Recently events in the news surrounding the indictment of Rick Koerber the founder of Franklin Squires and the "Free Capitalist" movement have gained attention from the general public. He is accused of running a ponzi scheme and ending up losing 100 million of others money.

If you don't know or are not remembering Rick, you may recall that he posted billboards along I-15 with stories that read "I made $42k using my 720 credit score" or had a huge picture of a guy with a goatee (Rick himself) with the caption "I am the Free Capitalist".

According to reports that I have heard, more than 700 households along the Wasatch front have been affected by giving money. Many of those have lost everything. Scores of homes have been foreclosed as a direct result of the Franklin Squires program. Meanwhile Rick claimed a regular listening audience of 25,000 registered listeners on his daily radio show.

If you live in Utah, I can say without a doubt your house value has been affected by the teachings of Rick Koerber.

If you have not heard yet here are the stories:

See the following links below or cut and paste them into your browser.


http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=6626449" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=148&sid=6614193" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

For Background:

http://www.franklinsquires.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://freecapitalist.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://freecapitalistdaily.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

My purpose in writing is to share what I have come to know with a Mormon audience and any interested non Mormon. I write to those that have some understanding or know someone who has an understanding of what Rick was teaching.

I lived in Alpine. I know Rick. I was consulted by many for my opinion of this program. I also know one of the founding 11 of Founders Capital. This particular individual was a member of our ward for a time. I know others who followed him. He shared with me the program before there was a "Free Capitalist" movement. I told them all from the very beginning that it would collapse some day.

I fought this program and more importantly the philosophy for 4 years. In the end, some listened and some didn't.

Many have asked me about this. I wish to give myself some closure on the issue and share a few things that I learned in the process. I know his program (scheme) inside and out.
I don't want to talk about that. I want to talk about the real deception.

The most difficult part about this situation is the ideological, philosophical, and spiritual deception. This all begins with a self-deception that was perpetuated first with Rick, then through Franklin Squires, and the connected groups. What made the "movement" dangerous is that they taught a very convincing philosophy not just a greed-driven scheme. They believe the philosophy, they are self-deceived that there is nothing wrong and that they are persecuted.

Rick piped the message across the airwaves on his radio programs everyday. He was very convincing and so intelligent that he could talk circles around anyone that decided to oppose him. He believes what he teaches and that is what makes him dangerous. After listening to Rick for many hours I decided to figure out why this did not sit well with me. Here is what I learned. All of this is based on Rick's writings or his radio programs, on in particular called "God is Capitalist".

The philosophy and patterns can be summarized in this way:

1) There is a basic pattern that is at the root of his belief system. It goes like this: the constitution is inspired and therefore is scripture, therefore the men who wrote were inspired, therefore the men who inspired them were inspired. With this as your core belief then it is possible for Rick to use Adam Smith & his book "The Wealth of Nations" or the writings that follow suit such as those of Ayn Rand for the interpretation of scripture.

Ergo, the capitalistic ideas of self interest, exchange of value, deserving wealth (if you are smart enough to get it), are now all ways to understand God. Therefore God is a capitalist and capitalism is his method of economics.

My belief: There is a very subtle danger here. The founding fathers were inspired, however, nowhere does scripture say that the constitution was or is scripture. While there were many inspired writings that may have contributed to the thoughts of the founding fathers it is incumbent upon us to continue to use the scriptures to interpret them and not the other way around, thus, reinforcing from whence the truth comes and not recreating it. When you go so far as to begin interpreting scripture with the humanist philosophers you get "the philosophies of men mingled with scripture". That begins a very dangerous pattern of deception where man redefines God and as Boyd K Packer says "(when) the channels of revelation are reversed...we lose our bearings" because we have created an alternate gospel driven by our desire to justify our actions with the philosophies of men. Joseph Smith taught that in the Lectures on Faith that there were three things that are required for any being to exercise faith in God: "First, The idea that he actually exists. Secondly, A correct idea of his character, perfections and attributes. Thirdly, An actual knowledge that the course of life which he is pursuing, is according to his will." If an individual redefines or accepts and incorrect definition of God then like and uneven or cracked foundation that faith will not hold the weight of the house built upon it. It becomes absolutely critical that we get his "character, perfections, and attributes" right. The nature of God is also the very thing that the adversary will try to alter first, if he can, he has help to create his religion of deception.

2) Rick taught his followers that covenants with God were nothing more than an exchange of value or as he liked to call them "transactions" (ie: God gives us eternal life for us giving him glory). In this "exchange of value" or "transaction" Rick teaches that since this is the way God operates we don't have to feel guilty for getting wealth when we take advantage of someone else because we can and should act in our own self interest. Futhermore, If a man gets more wealth then he deserves it because he was better at negotiating or structuring deals than someone else. In other words, all the "gifts of God" (intelligence, understanding, materials, etc) are nothing more than earnings in Gods economy and show a particular man's superiority.

My belief: Truths combined with lies (more lies than truths). I could elaborate at length however, simply put Korihor taught the same thing: Alma 30:17 "...every man fared in this life according to the management of the creature; therefore every man prospered according to his genius, and that every man conquered according to his strength; and whatsoever a man did was no crime."

Lets see where this leads us. If this "exchange of value" or "transaction" was real I could hold out for a better deal and negotiate with God. I hope this is obvious, I can't leverage God though my holding back his Glory in exchange for blessings like a capitalist can if he has something valuable. All things belong to God. God's glory comes from love of his children and is not dependent on my choices. He does not cease to be glorious if I don't keep my end of my covenants. Would God be in a never ending state of misery and darkness having no glory if suddenly all his children decided to break their covenants? That thought makes reason stare.

Finally, in a description of Zion, D&C 82:19 says: "...every man seeking the interest of his neighbor, and doing all things with an eye single to the glory of God." While I am terribly self interested, he is not and I am to put off that self interest and follow His example of love.

3) To Rick the government is the enemy and crimps their capitalistic style because according to Rick it is the message of the Book of Mormon and Ezra Taft Benson that we are at war with the socialists or "comi-czars".

My belief: Dallin H Oaks nailed it when he said:

"During the past half-century many Americans, including many Latter-day Saints, have been vigorously and successfully involved in defending our way of life against communism. Perhaps a preoccupation with turning communism away from the front door has made us vulnerable to the corruption of materialism slipping in through the back door. Communism is evil because it deprives people of their freedom and teaches that there is no God. Materialism is evil because it corrupts people in the use of their freedom and substitutes the god of property for the God of heaven."

We are at war with a an enemy that can change directions and forms without limits, capitalist or comunist. Satan is cunning.

4) Rick spoke of all his teachings being rooted in ancient principles and timeless truths. Yet, he and his followers taught people to use their credit score to borrow money that they could not repay by stating their income as more than it was and justified it with scripture.

My belief: Capitalism is based on trust and if you want to destroy capitalism the best way to do it is with deception. Case in point: the current mortgage crisis of which this scheme is a part, no one has trust in mortgages because many are based in lies. Somewhere along the way, the timeless principle of being honest was lost in the self deception that it is ok to use others as objects to get what they wanted. As the Book of Mormon teaches, "all are fallen, yea all are lost" and we are totally dependent on God therefore don't deserve anything and God "lends (us) breath". Being fallen, it is by His mercy that we live and therefore we should look at others as equal or equally dependent on Christ and if we "are in the service of our fellow beings we are only in the service of our God" or in other words "if ye have done it unto the least of these my brethren ye have done it unto me" (King Benjamin; Mosiah 2-3). Lying destroys the fabric of society. When it is done, it is done especially unto God. No man is an object to God.

5) Much of what is coming out happened years ago. The reason that it has taken this long for Rick to get indicted is because he designed the system to begin with to pass the responsibility to someone else. The founding eleven men of founders capital had a pact of loyalty and were responsible for recruiting others to use their credit to get money. Those that they recruited then in turn recruited others. The whole system was dependent on more and more people coming into the fold. The only way that the system would work was if more and more people came into the fold. All the recruits did the dirty work. Rick always has blamed them for doing the things that he taught them to do.

My belief: In the end Rick's invitation and structure was not much different than Giddianhi head of the Gadianton robbers writing to Lachoneous saying in 3 Nephi 3:9 & 7:

"And behold, I am Giddianhi; and I am the governor of this the secret society ...; which society and the works thereof I know to be good; and they are of ancient date and they have been handed down unto us...(therefore) yield yourselves up unto us, and unite with us and become acquainted with our secret works, and become our brethren that ye may be like unto usnot our slaves, but our brethren and partners of all our substance."

Rick will tell you that what he did, preached, and believed was good. He beileives that. He is self-decieved. The adversary is cunning enough and has enough deceptions at his disposal that he can mingle these ideas into good things like a belief in the value of our constitution and our way of life. He is great at making good things look bad and bad things look good. The result is still a lie.

Conclusion: To all those who think that Mormonism has something to do with this, I hope you can see that the Book of Mormon cuts through this kind of deception with a knife and that if we are prone to be deceived it is because of our pride and love of riches and not because the teachings of the church are wrong.

Rick will not make it out of this without paying an enormous price and he won't leave his self-deceived state until he repents and admits the deception of philosophy. I hope he does for his and his families sake, however I have a feeling that we will see the fulfillment of the words of Mormon in editorializing on the fall of Korihor when he said in Alma 30:60 "And thus we see the end of him who perverteth the ways of the Lord; and thus we see that the devil will not support his children at the last day..." In that same chapter we find out why Korihor did what he did: "But behold, the devil hath deceived me; for he appeared unto me in the form of an angel, and said unto me: Go and reclaim this people, for they have all gone astray after an unknown God...and he taught me that which I should say."

One last thing that I would like to say. I am not a socialist, nor am I against capitalism. I believe that government should be smaller than it is. I believe that liberty is a "God given" gift that no man has the right to take away, yet, it can be given away by decetpion. That brings up something that over-arches politics, government, and society. I believe what John Adams said it best in a letter to his wife Abigail, "We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a religious and moral people. It is wholly inadequate for the government of any other."

The lesson to be learned? I hope when we think of liberty we stay grounded in morality. I hope when we seek to defend the constitution and that we worship the God that inspired it and not the document itself nor the founding fathers or philosophers of the time. I hope that we remember that our only protection against our enemies from within or without comes through righteousness and when the moral backbone of society is broken, so is the form of government and there is nothing except repentance that will change that. Not politics, not economics, not legislation, not arms, nothing! The greatest protection against this kind of thing is the individual righteousness of the people and the subsequent blessings of God.

Remembering that in Moroni 7 in a discousre on Charity Mormon wrote that "charity seeketh not her own" is a wonderful guide to maintaining a free society.

I hope we learn."

http://www.thetopsofthemountains.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[HeirofNumenor]

My belief: Dallin H Oaks nailed it when he said:

"During the past half-century many Americans, including many Latter-day Saints, have been vigorously and successfully involved in defending our way of life against communism. Perhaps a preoccupation with turning communism away from the front door has made us vulnerable to the corruption of materialism slipping in through the back door. Communism is evil because it deprives people of their freedom and teaches that there is no God. Materialism is evil because it corrupts people in the use of their freedom and substitutes the god of property for the God of heaven."

Spot on.

I LOVE this quote! Do you have a reference for Elder Oaks' talk?


Here is another one by Elder Dallin H. Oaks (General Conference October 1994:

http://www.lds.org/ensign/1994/10/our-s ... pts+people
Materialistic Self-Reliance (2/3 down in the talk)

Another strength that can become our downfall stems from self-reliance. We are told to be self-reliant, to provide for ourselves and those dependent upon us. But success at that effort can easily escalate into materialism. This happens through carrying the virtue of “providing for our own” to the point of excessive concern with accumulating the treasures of the earth. I believe this relationship identifies materialism as a peculiar Mormon weakness, a classic example of how Satan can persuade some to drive a legitimate strength to such excess that it becomes a disabling weakness.

[linj2fly]

I like that one, too. It seems he has touched on that subject again in GC this past decade (strengths becoming our downfall....)

The quote comes from ch. 5 of Elder Oak's book, Pure in Heart, published in 1988. Chapter five is available here:

http://emp.byui.edu/SATTERFIELDB/Talks/ ... %20DHO.htm

The book is available on gospelink.com if you have a subscription.

[Tommie Pisciotta]

Let me talk catholic, because catholic is what I know. We have a pope.......should be a pius man, but has meals cooked, and tasted for him in case it is poisoned. Lives in a house worTH over a billion dollars. Is driven around in a car that was over a million dollars.......but does not live by the rules and laws set aside by the religion that he governs.

koerber is the same way.....though he thought. koerber believes he IS a god, and he is the pope of his "producer religion" ...........he believes that he has done nothing wrong, so he thinks, "i will just not pay the taxes!, i will show them!" he says, "i know more about U.S. history than anyone, i know more about the laws that i work with better than anyone, and know how to use them, abuse them, get around them!!!" he has these ideas, beliefs, a code.......things he teaches, but to this date, i have seen every one of his principles broken by him!

my god, and his god might have said "go out and prosper.............." the only thing different is that koerber believes that as longs as he can produce names of elders of his faith, says these people are his friends, that it is ok to pounce on the followers of his faith, use them, lie to them, and then take their property, their money, and their self respect......that is the hardest.

It would be the same as some the leader of a communist country forcing his slaves to stay in his country without the opportunity to travel, explore, experience, work for pennies, wear what he provides his people with, live where he says.........but the leader has homes all over, bodygards, limos, fine food, medicine.......and offers his people........who........many worship of their own free will........nothing.......

Koerber brain washed his follower like a cult leader or dictator would..........

koerber fed me lies, and fed them to me on the premise of "i am a man of faith, i have joined this great religion, these men are not just my elders, my mentors, my religious superiors, but are my friends, my students, i teach THEM!!!!!!" I have been taken............

I have been taken, my pride had been stripped from my body, my faith, along with my money. I know how a rape vicim feels after an assult......i feel dirty....used. i have lost......pride, respect, faith, good judgement, friends, trust............many of those will never come back..........

I can not believe a man would lie about......loving a woman, a wife, making children with her, standing before GOD, FAMILY, FRIENDS, your church, and then this man, during the hardest times in each of his ponzi scheme victims lives, he went to florida, to see mickey mouse, stay a month, and adopt an other child with this woman! Then he leaves her for another woman.................lies?, faith?, to screw the system?, hide money?, protect his inability to refrain from intercouse that with out protection, makes babies.........his ego is so large that the woman that he did not want to be married to anymore, is still ok to sleep with, and have more offspring to carry on the koerber name! Ohhhh, now i have a new woman.......new family.......new babie? babies? adoptions?

These parts of me that he stole will never come back, not just that koerber did these things to me, but who else did he encourage to screw me.....the kid who used to wash his car, that he told could do great things.....where is that young man now? His partners........did they all set out to screw people, or did they think he was going to do great things, and that is why they joined him? All the way down to the poor people that answered the phones, and had to keep lieing to me, and all of the other students and investors.....rick is here, or there.....not in.....ohh, he is so sick, can not sign checks right now, you will get them soon! Did these people know these were lies?

DID KOERBER TURN PROPER, CHURCH GOING, GOOD PEOPLE, INTO LIERS AND THIEFS????????? I BELIEVE HE DID! AND I KNOW HOW HE DID IT........WITH BIBLICAL BAGS OF GOLD COINS.....YOU KNOW HOW I KNOW......KOERBER TOLD ME, HE PUBLISHED IT, THE THOUGHT IT WAS A LITTLE INSIDE JOKE! (GUESS BETWEEN HE AND GOD) HE MADE HIS EMPLOYEES TAKE BONUSES IN BAGS OF GOLD COINS.......THE ONLY THING WORSE WOULD HAVE BEEN IF HE MADE HIS EMPLOYEES COME TO THE STEPS OF THE LOCAL TEMPLE!

As the troubled gov from the state of illinois said today, in a statement, at exactly 502pm, after twittering to the world that this will happen at 5:02.......2 minutes after the new started said "i have to go now, off to prison, but i will use my time well, this is not the end of me!" This will not be the end of koerber..........He must be put away for life...........never to be heard from, no minds to mold, no more souls to rape................

[HeirofNumenor]

DID KOERBER TURN PROPER, CHURCH GOING, GOOD PEOPLE, INTO LIERS AND THIEFS????????? I BELIEVE HE DID! AND I KNOW HOW HE DID IT........WITH BIBLICAL BAGS OF GOLD COINS.....YOU KNOW HOW I KNOW......KOERBER TOLD ME, HE PUBLISHED IT, THE THOUGHT IT WAS A LITTLE INSIDE JOKE! (GUESS BETWEEN HE AND GOD) HE MADE HIS EMPLOYEES TAKE BONUSES IN BAGS OF GOLD COINS.......THE ONLY THING WORSE WOULD HAVE BEEN IF HE MADE HIS EMPLOYEES COME TO THE STEPS OF THE LOCAL TEMPLE!

Just for clarification: those bags of gold coins that Koerber gave to his employees as Christmas bonuses were not actual gold, but gold-colored Sacajawea one-dollar coins.

[Headphone]

I have been taken, my pride had been stripped from my body, my faith, along with my money. I know how a rape vicim feels after an assult......i feel dirty....used. i have lost......pride, respect, faith, good judgement, friends, trust............many of those will never come back..........

Sorry to hear about your misfortune. I think honesty like this is what we need more of in this world. It is this kind of honesty that causes offenders to reflect more upon their actions than any condemnation and accusation of wrong.

Some might be quick to point out that you should avoid becoming a victim (in your view of yourself), and take responsibility for the personal motive that caused you to be led astray. All in due time. I say, wail away.

[GreenDelta840]

It's facinating how some humans are so well built to screw others and some humans are equally well built to be screwed! And doing all this in the name of liberty, freedom, founding fathers, righteousness and love. Wow! I'm impressed! Can't wait 'til we start settling other habitable planets with such lofty ideals!!!

[GreenDelta840]

Wow, there's so much loss and sadness associated with Rick and Jewel Koerber. How can people so righteous end up being so bad . . . and worst yet, not even realize they're at fault for so much misery? Denial is a powerful mental tool for survival, isn't it?

[GreenDelta840]

Oh, Rick . . . Oh Jewel . . . come out, come out wherever you are!

[ILiveIDieILiveAgain]

14 years in Federal prison for his principles.....

https://www.newsweek.com/mormon-scammer ... rs-1466071