Rick Koerber and Producer Revolution..

[MeeToo]

Hi,
Im looking for thoughts here.
I attended Producer revolution 3 times.

One was a 4.5 hour speech by Rick. Although I like talking about good principles.. I must say, i was totally turned off by rick. He continued to toot his horn, tell us he cared nothing about money, all the while telling us about his new $300,000 car, and He was a seminary teacher in the next breath. Yikes.

As he spoke, the camera paned the front row, to show Hartman Rector Jr. (As if the LDS church endorsed this guy) Made my skin crawl.

My gut tells me this guy is a sheep in wools clothing. I dont know why, but I feel hes a marketing genius, and a scam artist.

What ever happened to being a good steward of wealth, and spending our days in helping the poor? Is that our goal in life, to have a 25,000 sf house? Please.

This has priest craft written all over it.


I will make a prediction..

When this real estate bubble finishes its cycle, and it will in the next 1-2 years.. (And for those in SLC, its on its way there.. Its already here) we will see many many "Rick loving" investors holding over priced, over inflated properties they are stuck with. In most cases, you will Never be able to cover the payment in Rents. As the house of cards collapses, Rick will go on his merry way, all in the name of Principles .


How about these Principles..

1. Get out of debt. (Including your home) (stop borrowing against it!)
2. Live within your means.
3. Teach your children.
4. Personal Study, Prayer, finding the will of the Lord..
5. Look for ways to use your Blessings of Prosperity to bless the lives of others. (I dont need a $300,000 car to do this, you dont either)

Sound Familiar?



BTW, what happened to the Producer Revolution? Its now gone? Why?

[Proud 2b Peculiar]

WOW,,

I agree with those last principles that you listed.

[ShawnC]

Hi,
Im looking for thoughts here.
I attended Producer revolution 3 times.

One was a 4.5 hour speech by Rick. Although I like talking about good principles.. I must say, i was totally turned off by rick. He continued to toot his horn, tell us he cared nothing about money, all the while telling us about his new $300,000 car, and He was a seminary teacher in the next breath. Yikes.

As he spoke, the camera paned the front row, to show Hartman Rector Jr. (As if the LDS church endorsed this guy) Made my skin crawl.

My gut tells me this guy is a sheep in wools clothing. I dont know why, but I feel hes a marketing genius, and a scam artist.

What ever happened to being a good steward of wealth, and spending our days in helping the poor? Is that our goal in life, to have a 25,000 sf house? Please.

This has priest craft written all over it.


I will make a prediction..

When this real estate bubble finishes its cycle, and it will in the next 1-2 years.. (And for those in SLC, its on its way there.. Its already here) we will see many many "Rick loving" investors holding over priced, over inflated properties they are stuck with. In most cases, you will Never be able to cover the payment in Rents. As the house of cards collapses, Rick will go on his merry way, all in the name of Principles .


How about these Principles..

1. Get out of debt. (Including your home) (stop borrowing against it!)
2. Live within your means.
3. Teach your children.
4. Personal Study, Prayer, finding the will of the Lord..
5. Look for ways to use your Blessings of Prosperity to bless the lives of others. (I dont need a $300,000 car to do this, you dont either)

Sound Familiar?



BTW, what happened to the Producer Revolution? Its now gone? Why?

Thank you Mee, this producer revolution seems to me in my humble opinion to be just a means of manipulating people by using there religion as a means to obtain wealth. Such I feel can be construed under the false prophet category.

Shawn

[creator]

Im looking for thoughts here...

One was a 4.5 hour speech by Rick. Although I like talking about good principles.. I must say, i was totally turned off by rick. He continued to toot his horn, tell us he cared nothing about money, all the while telling us about his new $300,000 car, and He was a seminary teacher in the next breath. Yikes.

My gut tells me this guy is a sheep in wools clothing. I dont know why, but I feel hes a marketing genius, and a scam artist.

I don't agree with everything Rick Koerber says and does, but I challenge you to point out which principles you think he is violating? if any. There is nothing wrong with having a nice car or house, what you've got to look at is - is there a violation of principle involved?

I've been participating in the FreeCapitalist / Producer Revolution / Free Enterprise Forums for over a year now, though you may disagree with his strategy, I don't see any violation of principles in his actions. Do you?

What ever happened to being a good steward of wealth, and spending our days in helping the poor? Is that our goal in life, to have a 25,000 sf house? Please.

Rick has probably given more to the poor than any of us on this forum.

How about these Principles..

1. Get out of debt. (Including your home) (stop borrowing against it!)
2. Live within your means.
3. Teach your children.
4. Personal Study, Prayer, finding the will of the Lord..
5. Look for ways to use your Blessings of Prosperity to bless the lives of others. (I dont need a $300,000 car to do this, you dont either)

Sound Familiar?

From what I've seen, Rick lives those. What is debt? Debt is when your assets are less than your liabilities. I don't think Rick is in debt. Rick's "means" are much higher than most of us - we are all on a different scale in that sense. You may not want to use a $300,000 car to bless the lives of others, but I know that Rick uses real estate, cars and many other tools to bless the lives of others... like I said, we all choose different strategies. Show me the violation of principles here?

BTW, what happened to the Producer Revolution? Its now gone? Why?

Enter the Free Enterprise Forums.

You're looking for others thoughts here right? I've had a lot more experience with these organizations than you and my thoughts are that as long as you are living according to principles you're doing nothing wrong... Not everyone is going to follow the same strategies, not everyone is going to use real estate and nice cars as tools of production, and that's fine... you don't have to do what Rick is doing - do what you love doing.

If you can seriously show me where Rick is violating principles, I would love to know and be cleared of any ignorance on that topic.

[MeeToo]

Im looking for thoughts here...

If you can seriously show me where Rick is violating principles, I would love to know and be cleared of any ignorance on that topic.

D&C 59 comes to mind. Living in Excess.
Like a lot of money grubbers, they will say "Well, I pay my tithing, therefore, im a good steward."

The issue is , how do you define excess. I call a $300,000 car showing off. I could build a very nice school in Peru with that. $300,000 invested in a car does nothing to build the kingdom of God.

Funny, When I heard Rick speak for almost 5 hours, I NEVER heard him speak of the less fortunate once. Only that people with Jobs were mindless.. Mostly I heard that people that were poor were poor cuz they don't follow principles. You'd think that if Rick were interested in the Poor it would come up at least once in 5 hours. It dint

The #1 principle that Rick violates is that of Pride. You could cut it like a knife at the meeting.

If truly God is the real Owner of stuff, Did God tell Rick to buy a $300,000 car? Is that what you are saying?

[shadow]

I used to listen to Rick on the radio all the time. He took over Sumpters spot on K-Talk. I used to commute from Cache Valley to Salt lake every day so I would listen to him on my drive home when he switched to the 5 o'clock hour too. But I'm NOT a part of his group, and I really don't listen to him anymore.

It seems to me, mee, that he bought that expensive car and not only did it pay for itself, it was a money maker!! It was just a tool for him to use. Nothing wrong with that is there? What do you have that makes money?? I know to many everyone should drive a brown Volkswagon bug, Hitler style, it's the commie way!!

Who benefits by Rick buying an expensive car?? (Expensive for whom? Not Rick.) We could say Rick does. We could say the salesman does. His insurance agent does. Most importantly though is the guy that developed that car. The guy that invested his talents into creating that car. Are you suggesting that the engineers that built that car shouldn't have? What should they have done then?? How should they have spent their time? Are you going to force them to NOT develop their talents in the way they have? And who benefits from their designs? Cars with AC, cruise control, heated seats, air bags, ABS, tempered glass, etc. etc. all used to be found in very expensive, top of the line cars. What if no one bought them?? We'd still be driving model T's.

I would suggest that the world is a better place because people spent much time in developing new products. How about the toilet in your house?? To have plumbing in ones house, you used to have to be very rich. Same with AC and a furnace. I imagine that if you lived back in those days, these wealthy people would be living in excess, right?? Be glad wealthy people in history spent the money for these products. If there was no demand then, we wouldn't have them now.

Just for fun, how do you know Rick is living in excess?? Excessive to whom?? To you? Are you living in excess? Do have have more than a neighbor? Do you think that some parentless orphan in a 3rd world country might say you have excess?? Unfortunately, someone is always going to have more than you, and someone is always going to have less than you. To that one that has less than you, you have excess. But for some, what you call excess, they call it stewardship.

[Proud 2b Peculiar]

whoa

[MeeToo]

Who benefits by Rick buying an expensive car?? (Expensive for whom? Not Rick.) We could say Rick does. We could say the salesman does. His insurance agent does. Most importantly though is the guy that developed that car. The guy that invested his talents into creating that car. Are you suggesting that the engineers that built that car shouldn't have? What should they have done then?? How should they have spent their time? Are you going to force them to NOT develop their talents in the way they have? And who benefits from their designs? Cars with AC, cruise control, heated seats, air bags, ABS, tempered glass, etc. etc. all used to be found in very expensive, top of the line cars. What if no one bought them?? We'd still be driving model T's.

Every time I go and purchase anything, many benefit. Every time We help someone build a house, and we buy lumber, the economy benefits. I don't need to buy a Ferrari.
Our faith teaches us to be modest people. A 25,000 sf home is Not modest. A 25,000 sf home is the size of a school. I know a good man, that has 10 sports cars. He feels as you do, but I wonder, how many cars can you drive at once? How many guys could he employ at his company, to teach skills to, to move them ahead, with the millions he has tied up in cars? Is that best use? One thing we agree on, I think, is that each has their agency to determine what sort of steward they will be. God will judge ultimately.

We sing a hymn called "Because I have been given much"

2 Nephi 2:18
Use YOUR riches to:
Clothe the Naked, feed the hungry, Liberate the Captive, Administer relief to the sick and afflicted.

How does the Car meet those goals? Im missing something.


How can we live in Gluttony when our brothers and sisters starve?
If you take your logic to the extreme, why not build a Babylon with 50 foot walls around our stuff? Is that what a disciple of Jesus Christ should be doing? Storing up things that Rust doth corrupt?

Man that has eternal life is rich. In the book Mere Christianity, C.S. Lewis talks about this much. He says our Charity should keep us from living extravagant lifestyles. This in my mind is in harmony with the teachings of the Prophets.

By the way, Im curious, .. When Brigham YOung spoke of his fear of the saints getting rich and forgetting God, Speaking of Utah, Who in your mind is the kind of guy he was speaking of?

I know there are Rich that are righteous in spite of their riches , but the scriptures are clear with using the Camel in the eye metaphor, that that road is difficult.


I by no means thing that money itself is bad.. Its just a tool. But we can follow the heart by looking at someones treasures. isnt that what the scripture says?

[shadow]

Maybe "whoa". Maybe that was a rant. But you have to admit that people tend to judge those that "have" as evil or bad because they "have". When in all reality, the one doing the judging "has" more than many people on this Earth, just not as much as the one they deem to be evil.

And yes, there was a little lesson on economics in there as well. But it's true. The things the poorest among us enjoy now, the wealthiest of 100 yrs ago didn't have. When swamp coolers first came out, they were expensive. Now they're a dime a dozen. Have you asked yourself why? Central AC's used to be very expensive. Now they're affordable and expected on new homes. Same with indoor plumbing. That car you have is more powerful and lasts longer than cars of the 70's. It's safer and generally gets better mpg too. The technology that comes standard on newer cars used to just be found on expensive cars of earlier times. There is a reason for that.

Now just to reiterate, I don't know Rick. I haven't listened to him for well over a year now. I enjoyed the book reviews he did. I enjoyed him talking about the proper role of government. I enjoyed the economic conversations he had. I enjoyed his quoting the founding fathers. That's about all. I disagreed with him on occasion. But I'm not going to say he's evil because he drives a pricey car. A car that is pricey because of it's features. Features that will probably be standard on most cars in 15 yrs. He has a car worth $300,000. (said meetoo) that pays for itself. I bet most people reading this have a car payment and are in the hole on their vehicle, probably wished they didn't have it (the debt). Shame on those people for judging Rick who has a car (tool) that makes him money.

And yes meetoo, I don't need to buy a ferrari either. It's not practical for me. But can it be used as a good tool for someone? And what of the people that build ferraris? Maybe they should just stick to making a Ford Taurus? But wait, I bet some of the technology found in the Taurus came from high end cars. Not to mention the Ferrari designers wouldn't be happy working on a Ford Taurus. But you would rather have these people hide up their talent and not present it to the world.

As far as the 25,000 square foot house. Can that be used for good? Can equity be pulled out and reinvested in a company that employs people? Rick says even his house pays for itself. Maybe he's better off than me and my 3500 sq. foot house with a mortgage that I pay.
How big was Brigham Youngs house? Do we use his house as the standard size? He had another house in St. George too!!! Maybe we should check out the sizes of all the apostles houses? I'd say size or value does not determine if one is living in gluttony. Maybe it's if one has made that car or house a god. Maybe it's if that car or house is causing financial woes? Pride?

And please answer the question about yourself. Do you have what others would call excess? Can the poorest among us say that you live a life of gluttony? Do you have a car? A house? Clothes? A fridge? A furnace? Food? A TV?

And be careful about following the heart by looking at their treasures. It might be that one treasures another's property more than the property owner.

Curious again, you say you know a good man with 10 sports cars. What makes him good? I'm willing to guess it's not his sports cars.

[ShawnC]

Man that has eternal life is rich. In the book Mere Christianity, C.S. Lewis talks about this much. He says our Charity should keep us from living extravagant lifestyles. This in my mind is in harmony with the teachings of the Prophets.

Mee,

That is an excellent quote. Thank you for reminding me of that one. I believe there is much truth in that. I have been over these things with many different people time and again in church and other places. One thing that I have noticed are the ones who try so vehemently to defend the position of having riches beyond what is needed, are those who seemingly have such riches. They are always the ones to use lines like, "The Lord wants us to be happy and have riches" (which to me is acquainting happiness with money), and "Just as long as our hearts are not set upon our riches then it is OK". Unto such I recommend reading Jacob 2 in the BoM. He makes himself pretty clear.

11 Wherefore, I must tell you the truth according to the plainness of the word of God. For behold, as I inquired of the Lord, thus came the word unto me, saying: Jacob, get thou up into the temple on the morrow, and declare the word which I shall give thee unto this people.
12 And now behold, my brethren, this is the word which I declare unto you, that many of you have begun to search for gold, and for silver, and for all manner of precious ores, in the which this land, which is a land of promise unto you and to your seed, doth abound most plentifully.
13 And the hand of providence hath smiled upon you most pleasingly, that you have obtained many riches; and because some of you have obtained more abundantly than that of your brethren ye are lifted up in the pride of your hearts, and wear stiff necks and high heads because of the costliness of your apparel, and persecute your brethren because ye suppose that ye are better than they.
14 And now, my brethren, do ye suppose that God justifieth you in this thing? Behold, I say unto you, Nay. But he condemneth you, and if ye persist in these things his judgments must speedily come unto you.
15 O that he would show you that he can pierce you, and with one glance of his eye he can smite you to the dust!
16 O that he would rid you from this iniquity and abomination. And, O that ye would listen unto the word of his commands, and let not this pride of your hearts destroy your souls!
17 Think of your brethren like unto yourselves, and be familiar with all and free with your substance, that they may be rich like unto you.
18 But before ye seek for riches, seek ye for the kingdom of God.
19 And after ye have obtained a hope in Christ ye shall obtain riches, if ye seek them; and ye will seek them for the intent to do good—to clothe the naked, and to feed the hungry, and to liberate the captive, and administer relief to the sick and the afflicted.
20 And now, my brethren, I have spoken unto you concerning pride; and those of you which have afflicted your neighbor, and persecuted him because ye were proud in your hearts, of the things which God hath given you, what say ye of it?
21 Do ye not suppose that such things are abominable unto him who created all flesh? And the one being is as precious in his sight as the other. And all flesh is of the dust; and for the selfsame end hath he created them, that they should keep his commandments and glorify him forever.
22 And now I make an end of speaking unto you concerning this pride.

Interesting how he calls such attitude toward riches Pride. Avraham gileadi speaks of riches and inequality in his book The Last Days, which is excellent by the way. Also I think of Moses 7:18 that says...

18 And the Lord called his people ZION, because they were of one heart and one mind, and dwelt in righteousness; and there was no poor among them.

Is this not what we seek to obtain. I promise you that when such inequality exists within the church that Zion the place or Zion the state of mind will not be achieved.

Mr. Gileadi also brings up the condemnation from Isaiah that Israel, or Ephraim the Church is under because they ignore the widows and fatherless and do not impart of thier substance. Such is one of the sins that exist in apostates.

Just my thoughs.

Shawn

[shadow]

So is being rich bad, or is it the general attitude of the rich?
you know, the stiff necks, lifted up in pride, have high heads, persecuting others because "ye suppose ye are better than they". Can one be wealthy, drive a new car, live in a nice house and NOT take part in any of the above mentioned activities? I say absolutely.

And is it easy for the poor to condemn the rich and call wealth evil when a wealthy rich person is humble and Christ-like? Who is casting the stone? I am also suggesting that sometimes the "poor" aren't so poor, just not AS wealthy. Thus they condemn those that have more out of jealousy.

The "one mind, one heart" applies to everyone.

[Proud 2b Peculiar]

http://www.providentliving.org/media/tr ... /main.html

[Proud 2b Peculiar]

Just for clarification sake, when i said *whoa* I was reflecting on the fact that I am surprised that this is an issue.

The best that we can do is make sure that we are doing all that we can to live what the prophets have asked us.

There is a lot of great information in the link that I provided above, there are even talks about getting equity out of your homes etc.

[shadow]

I don't know that it's an "issue", and I think we mostly agree with each other. Mee Too was looking for some thoughts and I thought I would oblige. That was a great link you posted. Those are true principles that lead to safety, security, and prosperity. Now I'm not a Rick Keorber follower, but I expect when one calls him (or anyone) a false prophet or accuses him of priestcraft to back it up with facts. What is it that he (Rick) teaches that is NOT in line with the principles found on the provident living website? That's what Mee Too didn't have the facts on or at least shared with us. I kinda got the feeling that Mee Too was just picking on Rick because Rick is wealthy. The question needs to be asked why is Rick wealthy? What is he doing with his wealth? and so on.

[Proud 2b Peculiar]

Is this the same organization that has people investing in investments that are supposed to pay out enough to cover their mortgages etc, that is not paying out right now?

Is this the same Utah guy that I have been hearing about?

I have heard a couple different things if it is. Like the reason the fund is not paying out is because of the government.

[Proud 2b Peculiar]

I don't know that it's an "issue", and I think we mostly agree with each other. Mee Too was looking for some thoughts and I thought I would oblige. That was a great link you posted. Those are true principles that lead to safety, security, and prosperity. Now I'm not a Rick Keorber follower, but I expect when one calls him (or anyone) a false prophet or accuses him of priestcraft to back it up with facts. What is it that he (Rick) teaches that is NOT in line with the principles found on the provident living website? That's what Mee Too didn't have the facts on or at least shared with us. I kinda got the feeling that Mee Too was just picking on Rick because Rick is wealthy. The question needs to be asked why is Rick wealthy? What is he doing with his wealth? and so on.

Does he teach to take out equity, second or third mortgages?

If he does, the prophet warns against that flat out on that link I gave.

[buffalo_girl]

Time always reveals who is a hustler and who is a righteous man. Just stand by and watch. In the meantime, I would strongly advise against investing in any sure fire money making principles.

I kinda got the feeling that Mee Too was just picking on Rick because Rick is wealthy. The question needs to be asked why is Rick wealthy? What is he doing with his wealth? and so on.
And is it easy for the poor to condemn the rich and call wealth evil when a wealthy rich person is humble and Christ-like? Who is casting the stone? I am also suggesting that sometimes the "poor" aren't so poor, just not AS wealthy. Thus they condemn those that have more out of jealousy.

Well, we certainly know who will defend "Rick" from the jealous "poor"! I'm sure "Rick" appreciates it, too.

And it came to pass in the thirty and sixth year, the people were all converted unto the Lord, upon all the face of the land, both Nephites and Lamanites, and there were no contentions and disputations among them, and every man did deal justly one with another.
And they had all things common among them; therefore there were not rich and poor, bond and free, but they were all made free, and partakers of the heavenly gift.

[creator]

I recommend that all of you (including myself) read a talk given by Brigham Young titled "Use and Abuse of Blessings"... you can download it here:

Use and Abuse of Blessings

While you are reading it I hope you'll consider how it relates to this discussion we're having and what you might have learned that relates to this discussion.

[sally]

That is a wonderful scripture, Buffalo Girl. Yesterday I was reading a new printing of The Proper Role of Government by Ezra Taft Benson. In the Introduction by John Wenders called Statism: the Individual vs. the Collective, John talks about how we have been conditioned to feel guilty if we, by our own industry, get more than our neighbors.

The majoritarian standard is based simply on whether others are also doing it, regardless of any cultural basis for the act. This leads to a related kind of collective guilt, one based not on what has been done to others, but based solely on one's realative position among others...If you have something, even though you got it through your own talent and hard work, with the voluntary and mutually beneficial cooperation of others, you should feel guilty because it has placed you in some kind of illegitimate superior position relative to others. Nothing is so pitiful as watching a creative and productive individual consumed by guilt about his own accomplishments, adopt a collective view of the world.

I feel that if we spend too much time judging our neighbors, we will not accomplish the perfecting of ourselves that needs to be done in this life. I am not one to talk, though, about this because it is something I have not yet mastered myself. We should lovingly accept other people.

[MeeToo]

I don't know that it's an "issue", and I think we mostly agree with each other. Mee Too was looking for some thoughts and I thought I would oblige. That was a great link you posted. Those are true principles that lead to safety, security, and prosperity. Now I'm not a Rick Keorber follower, but I expect when one calls him (or anyone) a false prophet or accuses him of priestcraft to back it up with facts. What is it that he (Rick) teaches that is NOT in line with the principles found on the provident living website? That's what Mee Too didn't have the facts on or at least shared with us. I kinda got the feeling that Mee Too was just picking on Rick because Rick is wealthy. The question needs to be asked why is Rick wealthy? What is he doing with his wealth? and so on.

The reality is, you dont know how wealthy I am or am not. I know that since Ive moved to Utah, many people get sucked into this sort of cult following.. I dont know for sure that Ricks one of them, but my gut says he is. Im am well aquinted with many that are many times wealthier than Rick, but I dont see them prancing around.

I will stand behind my feelings.. We are NOT here on earth to amass Wealth. We are here to Serve. That is our birthright.
It takes zero income to serve the lord. He wants our hearts, thats it.

[creator]

Im am well aquinted with many that are many times wealthier than Rick, but I dont see them prancing around.

You don't see them prancing around because they probably aren't in the process of creating an organization of people dedicated to the principles of freedom. As I understand it, Rick's objectives are to help others become financially free, while teaching them the principles of liberty, so that we can actually change the way this country is headed, and help restore what the Founding Fathers had intended... (I don't know how many times I've heard people like ourselves complaining that "if I only we had money" or "if only we had some rich people on our side" - "then we could make a difference..." - What Rick is teaching is, why don't we each become financially free so that we can make a difference. Is there really anything wrong with freedom?

I will stand behind my feelings.. We are NOT here on earth to amass Wealth. We are here to Serve. That is our birthright.
It takes zero income to serve the lord. He wants our hearts, thats it.

True, the purpose of life is not to amass wealth... Imagine how much of a better servant you can be if you are financially free! Many of us waste so much time slaving away at a 40-hour a week job, when we could be spending that time serving the Lord and doing good in the world.

MeeToo, maybe you can agree with me on this? --->

If amassing wealth is your objective, then you're on the wrong path --- but if you are using money as a tool to become free, and thus creating more time to dedicate yourself in the service of the Lord, then you are being a wise steward, and a righteous servant.... if you read "Use and Abuse of Blessing" by Brigham Young (linked above) then you'll understand that this action is right in line with what President Young was teaching the Saints... that it's good if you can obtain more property and in turn use it to create more jobs, and thus more wealth for everyone... (I hope you'll read it if you haven't).

Personally I don't think it matters how much money you do or don't have, but what matters is what you do with the money (what you do with the things god has given you).

Now you might argue, that buying a $300,000 car is not being a wise steward, but who are you to judge? especially when the person you are judging is not "wasting" money on the car, but is actually gaining money by having the car, which means he can bless the lives of more people by having that car.

Another thing to consider, why does price matter anyways? Why does it matter if something cost $1,000 or $300,000 ??? Having an equal amount of dollars is not equality - having an equal amount of freedoms is.

Even if you have $1,000 and I have $1,000 we are not "equal" - (similar to the parable of the talents). You might decide to spend your 1000 on food storage, and maybe I'll use my 1000 $ to create even more money- I end up with $10,000, buy some food storage and go on to do much more with the rest... there will never be such a thing as equality in the amount of dollars a person has - except if it is forced upon us through socialist/fascist/tyrants, etc.

What are dollars? Read this for more insight into what money is:
http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?ID=1826

[creator]

Does he teach to take out equity, second or third mortgages?

If he does, the prophet warns against that flat out on that link I gave.

LoveChrist,

That link does not warn flat out against taking out "equity, second or third mortgages"... I'll even quote from some information found while browsing that page: "Should I refinance my home mortgage?... you may consider refinancing your home mortage. While there are many instances in which refinancing makes sense, you need to be careful." (source: http://www.fincalc.com/HOM_02.asp?id=14720 - linked from: http://www.providentliving.org/media/tr ... /main.html )

The Church is not saying NEVER refinance, take equity out, etc... they even said "there are many instances in which refinancing makes sense" - they are simply counseling that if you do take that route that you should "be careful" - you should be smart about the decision and know whether or not your actions will be for the better or worse. Obviously if you are refinancing and getting equity out so you can pay down you credit card debt, buy a boat, and some four-wheelers then you're probably the type of person that shouldn't be refinancing... but if you know how to use the equity in your home to create even more wealth then go for it... even the FOUNDING FATHERS used this Strategy.

[jbalm]

Wealth is relative.

If a person living in a mud hut in Africa saw us, a bunch of well fed people with enough extra money to own a computer and enough leisure time to pontificate on the internet, that African would think we are wealthy beyond belief. Would that person be justified in condemning us for our excesses? I don't know.

If I got caught up in criticizing someone just because they had more earthly wealth than me, then I would be the one showing a preoccupation with money, not the "rich" guy.

Now, if someone is actually hurting others to enrich themselves, that's another story.

[drjme]

I completely agree with LDC.

If amassing wealth is your objective, then you're on the wrong path --- but if you are using money as a tool to become free, and thus creating more time to dedicate yourself in the service of the Lord, then you are being a wise steward, and a righteous servant.

I believe God gives you what you can handle. He will not tempt you more than you are able to withstand. This includes income. If you are righteous and you were given large amounts of money which would corrupt you, why would he try you like that if you were not able to withstand it.
there are alot of greedy rich people yes, but there are ALOT more greedy poor people. the idea that because someone has more money than someone else does not make them more greedy (it is common idea among most christians that I know that is it is a sin to be wealthy, wealth = greed).

Who are we to judge if someone financially educates themselves and makes wise investments and makes large sums of money off their investments. If that person does so without offending God, his fellow man, or gospel principles, where lies the sin?
If someone chooses to study microbiology and another chooses to study business management and becomes wealthier than the microbiologist is that because he is greedy or that he chose to apply himself to the best of his ability in a different field and be rewarded for it?

True, the purpose of life is not to amass wealth... Imagine how much of a better servant you can be if you are financially free! Many of us waste so much time slaving away at a 40-hour a week job, when we could be spending that time serving the Lord and doing good in the world.

so true. look at everyone around you. the rat race that we live in, slaving away just to get by! both parents having to work to the detriment of the family. society has been engineered this way specifically and on purpose.

I aim to be financially free so that I can serve my family better, by spending more time with them and so I can dedicate all my time to worthy causes in service to my fellow man and so in service to my God. that is what I wish to do. It is not required that I be wealthy but if I can become wealthy without violating any of the principles and standards that I have set that I have based on my LDS beliefs, then I am not doing anything wrong am I?

It takes zero income to serve the lord. He wants our hearts, thats it.

God doesn't require that we have zero income to serve him, I think he would find it irresponsible of us to have no income to provide for ourselves and families. you can serve the lord in exactly the same way whether you have wealth or not. He doesn't judge us by the amount of money we have (like the world does). he judges us on what we do while we are here, and how we use his blessings to bless the lives of those we come in contact with.

if you earn $100,000 and spend $30,000 on a car, is it worse if someone who earns $1,000,000 spends $300,000 on a car?
If someone earns $1,000,000 and gives $100,000 as tithing, and you earn $100,000 and pay $10,000 in tithing are you not being as generous as the person who gives 10 times more?

God will judge us equally whether you are rich and selfish or poor and selfish, it's what you do with what you are given.

[MeeToo]

Does he teach to take out equity, second or third mortgages?

If he does, the prophet warns against that flat out on that link I gave.

LoveChrist,

That link does not warn flat out against taking out "equity, second or third mortgages"... I'll even quote from some information found while browsing that page: "Should I refinance my home mortgage?... you may consider refinancing your home mortage. While there are many instances in which refinancing makes sense, you need to be careful." (source: http://www.fincalc.com/HOM_02.asp?id=14720 - linked from: http://www.providentliving.org/media/tr ... /main.html )

The Church is not saying NEVER refinance, take equity out, etc... they even said "there are many instances in which refinancing makes sense" - they are simply counseling that if you do take that route that you should "be careful" - you should be smart about the decision and know whether or not your actions will be for the better or worse. Obviously if you are refinancing and getting equity out so you can pay down you credit card debt, buy a boat, and some four-wheelers then you're probably the type of person that shouldn't be refinancing... but if you know how to use the equity in your home to create even more wealth then go for it... even the FOUNDING FATHERS used this Strategy.

Elder Faust Spoke at length about the great day when he paid off his house. He didnt mention using his equity to Mill other properties.