The Mayan Calendar debate

[NoGreaterLove]

The debate is still on. Astronomers do not believe we have successfully matched our calendar dates with the Mayan calendar because the planets do not line up correctly when using the current theory.

Here is an article on it. Sorry to blow your high!

"Alright, so what is the Western 'translation' of such a date? What christian calender date belongs to which Mayan year. This is a practical problem that scientists have been debating for centuries. The Spaniards have burned most of the Mayan texts that could have acted as a guide. So researchers that want to know how Mayan time fits into the normal calender are forced to rely on chiseled inscriptions, a few written clues from the Spanish conquistadores and modern tables that allow you to find the positions of the planets and stars. This complex scientific puzzle that tries to fit the Mayan calender onto those of the West is called the 'correlation problem'.

And this is also where the notorious end date of 21-12-2012 comes into play. A small one hundred years ago scientists thought they had the answer. By looking at casual references in Spanish writings, archeologists named Goodman, Martínez and Thompson presented their 'GMT-correlation': a calculation that determined the creation date of the Mayans to be the 11th of August 3114 B.C. After some calculations the GMT-correlation says that the long count will complete one full round in December 2012. The counter will jump to 13.0.0.0.0 and time will be finished, or so the archeologists thought.



Thought, because what few 2012-prophets know, is that the GMT-correlation has been under heavy fire for the last ten years by modern research of astronomers, archeologists and a few hobby mathematicians. The final blow has been dealt by the thesis that gave earth-scientist Andreas Fuls his Ph.D. at the Technical University of Berlin three years ago. Fuls demonstrated that the GMT-correlation was not in line with a Mayan table that displayed the positions of Venus. And there is more, like inscriptions and artifacts that had not been discovered or dated in the time of Goodman, Martínez en Thompson. By adding it all up Fuls comes with a completely different date: one that has moved it 208 years. According to that correlation the long count will end in two centuries, on the 21st, 22nd or 23rd of December 2220. "That's the only possibility", Fuls says when asked about it."

http://www.2adventuretravel.com/blogs/t ... -2220.html

Well, I guess that blows the 2012 theory out of the water, unless you want to depend on correlation that was determined over 100 years ago.
With the new evidence it appears we have a little more time to wait. Like, maybe 200 or so years.

[pjbrownie]

2012 is also a numerological prophesy in the Book of Mormon. 182-3 years from the time Alma brought John-the-Baptist style Christianity to the Judaic travelers from Jerusalem, through revealed Priesthood (a type for Joseph Smith), Christ came to His temple in Bountiful. 182-3 years from Joseph Smith gives us 2012-2013. I found this out 15 years ago before I knew anything about the Mayan stuff. I had the sense then that these years would bring something big, but it may also just be a date. I guess we'll see.

[NoGreaterLove]

I tried to do the math on that too, but was unable to come to a conclusion because their were to many missing dates, such as how old was Alma when he was converted? How did you come to that numerical conclusion? I tried to correlate Almas conversion to the reign of the kings and the reign of the judges, but had no luck, only an educated guess.

[pjbrownie]

In Chapter 18 of Mosiah, it appears he is baptizing at 147 BC. 147+0(1)+34=182. In reality it appears that it somewhere in the vicinity of 145-148 BC where Alma receives the authority to begin baptizing (the first time in the Book of Mormon). It is a new covenant, a preparatory covenant similar to the authority of John the Baptist.

This would put the time frame between 180-183 years, or 2010-2013 correlated to modern days. I'm not sure what to expect. I used to think that this indicated about when Christ would come to His modern-day temple in New Jerusalem. I think there is too much to do between now and then, but who knows.

[bobhenstra]

I suggest you re-figure using the 365 day Nephite year and converting your dates to our 365.24219878 calendar.

The Mayan Calendar is interesting, but if the starting date is wrong, or not correlated to any known date or event, why wouldn't the ending date also be wrong, or of little importance?

In other words, what great event determined the starting date of the Mayan Calendar??

Bob

[Carlos]

In other words, what great event determined the starting date of the Mayan Calendar??

Bob

Let's see...3114 BC I believe that Enoch was in the process of prophesying or laying the foundation for the first Zion. Since cycles are a major part of the MC, another important question is, "what was taking place at the exact 1/2 of the cycle?" The mid way point of the cycle is around 550 BC. Look in 2 Nephi and you'll see Nephi and Jacob waxing eloquent on the Zion of the last days, quoting all the pertinent Isaiah chapters. So we know what was on Nephi's mind at the mid point of the great cycle. Just a thought

[pjbrownie]

I suggest you re-figure using the 365 day Nephite year and converting your dates to our 365.24219878 calendar.

The Mayan Calendar is interesting, but if the starting date is wrong, or not correlated to any known date or event, why wouldn't the ending date also be wrong, or of little importance?

In other words, what great event determined the starting date of the Mayan Calendar??

Bob

In 182 years it only gives you 44 more days, so not a big difference.

[bobhenstra]

In other words, what great event determined the starting date of the Mayan Calendar??

Bob

Let's see...3114 BC I believe that Enoch was in the process of prophesying or laying the foundation for the first Zion. Since cycles are a major part of the MC, another important question is, "what was taking place at the exact 1/2 of the cycle?" The mid way point of the cycle is around 550 BC. Look in 2 Nephi and you'll see Nephi and Jacob waxing eloquent on the Zion of the last days, quoting all the pertinent Isaiah chapters. So we know what was on Nephi's mind at the mid point of the great cycle. Just a thought

Again, PJ 3114 BC by the Mayan Calendar, had nothing to do with Alma. 3114 BC was before the flood, so Carlos is speculating that it might have something to do with Enoch. Possible I guess! But until I know, I can place little faith in a date on a calendar that doesn't agree with astronomical data, or even scriptural data for that matter.

As NGL points out, there are no dates corresponding with Alma that can be utilized by us in our calculations, so in this case--- we're guessing!

Time started when Adam fell, Fell from what? We're guessing it happened sometime around 4000 BC, if so, how does the Mayan Calendar fit in? Fact is, it doesn't!

We don't even know if a year on earth has varied since the fall. a multitude of calendars have varied in year length, but the actual year, has it always been 365.24219878 days long??

I have long held an interest in this subject, but I need the other two thirds of the Book of Mormon, it contains the complete history of the earth!

I have prayed for it, years ago I promised the Lord if he'd just show the 2/3rds to me long enough to read it, I wouldn't tell a living soul-- He told me "I" had enough information for now! I have learned one very important thing though, I can't argue with the Lord--- I tried! He says "Come let us reason together"--- that didn't work either concerning this subject. Worked well on other subjects---

For some reason-----? Need more information!

Bob

[BroJones]

The debate is still on. Astronomers do not believe we have successfully matched our calendar dates with the Mayan calendar because the planets do not line up correctly when using the current theory.

Here is an article on it. Sorry to blow your high!

"Alright, so what is the Western 'translation' of such a date? What christian calender date belongs to which Mayan year. This is a practical problem that scientists have been debating for centuries. The Spaniards have burned most of the Mayan texts that could have acted as a guide. So researchers that want to know how Mayan time fits into the normal calender are forced to rely on chiseled inscriptions, a few written clues from the Spanish conquistadores and modern tables that allow you to find the positions of the planets and stars. This complex scientific puzzle that tries to fit the Mayan calender onto those of the West is called the 'correlation problem'.

And this is also where the notorious end date of 21-12-2012 comes into play. A small one hundred years ago scientists thought they had the answer. By looking at casual references in Spanish writings, archeologists named Goodman, Martínez and Thompson presented their 'GMT-correlation': a calculation that determined the creation date of the Mayans to be the 11th of August 3114 B.C. After some calculations the GMT-correlation says that the long count will complete one full round in December 2012. The counter will jump to 13.0.0.0.0 and time will be finished, or so the archeologists thought.



Thought, because what few 2012-prophets know, is that the GMT-correlation has been under heavy fire for the last ten years by modern research of astronomers, archeologists and a few hobby mathematicians. The final blow has been dealt by the thesis that gave earth-scientist Andreas Fuls his Ph.D. at the Technical University of Berlin three years ago. Fuls demonstrated that the GMT-correlation was not in line with a Mayan table that displayed the positions of Venus. And there is more, like inscriptions and artifacts that had not been discovered or dated in the time of Goodman, Martínez en Thompson. By adding it all up Fuls comes with a completely different date: one that has moved it 208 years. According to that correlation the long count will end in two centuries, on the 21st, 22nd or 23rd of December 2220. "That's the only possibility", Fuls says when asked about it."

http://www.2adventuretravel.com/blogs/t ... -2220.html

Well, I guess that blows the 2012 theory out of the water, unless you want to depend on correlation that was determined over 100 years ago.
With the new evidence it appears we have a little more time to wait. Like, maybe 200 or so years.

This statement, "The counter will jump to 13.0.0.0.0 and time will be finished, or so the archeologists thought." shows a complete lack of understanding of the Mayan view of time and makes me question the validity of the argument. (Although I'm willing to check what serious researchers say, as I have time.)

The Maya viewed time as going through CYCLES. At the end of the last great cycle, a great FLOOD occurred... but time continued on into the next cycle, the one we are currently in. And so it is with the completion of the current cycle -- which the Maya said would end with great EARTHQUAKES, followed by the return of the beneficent God Itzamna, known for his healing powers and marks in his hands.

But time will continue on -- this statement that "time will be finished" displays the ignorance of the writer IMO. (Sorry if I seem harsh here... trying to emphasize a point.)

[pjbrownie]

In other words, what great event determined the starting date of the Mayan Calendar??

Bob

Let's see...3114 BC I believe that Enoch was in the process of prophesying or laying the foundation for the first Zion. Since cycles are a major part of the MC, another important question is, "what was taking place at the exact 1/2 of the cycle?" The mid way point of the cycle is around 550 BC. Look in 2 Nephi and you'll see Nephi and Jacob waxing eloquent on the Zion of the last days, quoting all the pertinent Isaiah chapters. So we know what was on Nephi's mind at the mid point of the great cycle. Just a thought

Again, PJ 3114 BC by the Mayan Calendar, had nothing to do with Alma. 3114 BC was before the flood, so Carlos is speculating that it might have something to do with Enoch. Possible I guess! But until I know, I can place little faith in a date on a calendar that doesn't agree with astronomical data, or even scriptural data for that matter.

As NGL points out, there are no dates corresponding with Alma that can be utilized by us in our calculations, so in this case--- we're guessing!

Time started when Adam fell, Fell from what? We're guessing it happened sometime around 4000 BC, if so, how does the Mayan Calendar fit in? Fact is, it doesn't!

We don't even know if a year on earth has varied since the fall. a multitude of calendars have varied in year length, but the actual year, has it always been 365.24219878 days long??

I have long held an interest in this subject, but I need the other two thirds of the Book of Mormon, it contains the complete history of the earth!

I have prayed for it, years ago I promised the Lord if he'd just show the 2/3rds to me long enough to read it, I wouldn't tell a living soul-- He told me "I" had enough information for now! I have learned one very important thing though, I can't argue with the Lord--- I tried! He says "Come let us reason together"--- that didn't work either concerning this subject. Worked well on other subjects---

For some reason-----? Need more information!

Bob

What do you mean, it's right in Alma 18. It says within three years when he began baptizing. It's right there in black and white 148-145 BC (147 when he began baptizing).

[NoGreaterLove]

PJB
Which Alma are you talking about/ I am going to go back and read what you posted. I thought you were talking about Alma re-establishing the church after King Noah's court. I tried a few years ago to set a date to the baptisms at the Waters of Mormon, but could not. the whole Noah in the land of Nephi thing does not give us exact dates, so it is hard to correlate it with the reign of the judges or how many years since Lehi left Jerusalem.
I was hoping you had a reference I might have missed. Take a look at it and see if you can find it. Alma 18 is not it.

[NoGreaterLove]

I think you meant Mosiah 18. I see the dates, however it is just an estimate. There are no exact dates to correlate with, only estimations made due to approximate ages, etc. I think this would be fun to try to figure out how they came to that estimate with the known facts in the BOM. I will try to work on it. Anyone else want to try/
I, just like you, think this is a parallel type and believe it is worth exploring.

[bobhenstra]

I think you meant Mosiah 18. I see the dates, however it is just an estimate. There are no exact dates to correlate with, only estimations made due to approximate ages, etc. I think this would be fun to try to figure out how they came to that estimate with the known facts in the BOM. I will try to work on it. Anyone else want to try/
I, just like you, think this is a parallel type and believe it is worth exploring.

I have studied that idea for seemingly ages, if PJ's references is a type as PJ insists, it a poor one, just not enough information there.

However, I'm completely open to further study, many times in my study I have discovered some important clue to help me with my understanding, then wonder, when did they put that in there??

If PJ is correct, something other than the date estimate has to be there.

Bob

[bobhenstra]

Mosiah 18

1 And now, it came to pass that Alma, who had fled from the servants of king Noah, repented of his sins and iniquities, and went about privately among the people, and began to teach the words of Abinadi—

2 Yea, concerning that which was to come, and also concerning the resurrection of the dead, and the redemption of the people, which was to be brought to pass through the power, and sufferings, and death of Christ, and his resurrection and ascension into heaven.

3 And as many as would hear his word he did teach. And he taught them privately, that it might not come to the knowledge of the king. And many did believe his words.

4 And it came to pass that as many as did believe him did go forth to a place which was called Mormon, having received its name from the king, being in the borders of the land having been infested, by times or at seasons, by wild beasts.

5 Now, there was in Mormon a fountain of pure water, and Alma resorted thither, there being near the water a thicket of small trees, where he did hide himself in the daytime from the searches of the king.

6 And it came to pass that as many as believed him went thither to hear his words.

7 And it came to pass after many days there were a goodly number gathered together at the place of Mormon, to hear the words of Alma. Yea, all were gathered together that believed on his word, to hear him. And he did teach them, and did preach unto them repentance, and redemption, and faith on the Lord.

8 And it came to pass that he said unto them: Behold, here are the waters of Mormon (for thus were they called) and now, as ye are desirous to come into the fold of God, and to be called his people, and are willing to bear one another's burdens, that they may be light;

9 Yea, and are willing to mourn with those that mourn; yea, and comfort those that stand in need of comfort, and to stand as witnesses of God at all times and in all things, and in all places that ye may be in, even until death, that ye may be redeemed of God, and be numbered with those of the first resurrection, that ye may have eternal life—

10 Now I say unto you, if this be the desire of your hearts, what have you against being baptized in the name of the Lord, as a witness before him that ye have entered into a covenant with him, that ye will serve him and keep his commandments, that he may pour out his Spirit more abundantly upon you?

11 And now when the people had heard these words, they clapped their hands for joy, and exclaimed: This is the desire of our hearts.

12 And now it came to pass that Alma took Helam, he being one of the first, and went and stood forth in the water, and cried, saying: O Lord, pour out thy Spirit upon thy servant, that he may do this work with holiness of heart.

13 And when he had said these words, the Spirit of the Lord was upon him, and he said: Helam, I baptize thee, having authority from the Almighty God, as a testimony that ye have entered into a covenant to serve him until you are dead as to the mortal body; and may the Spirit of the Lord be poured out upon you; and may he grant unto you eternal life, through the redemption of Christ, whom he has prepared from the foundation of the world.

14 And after Alma had said these words, both Alma and Helam were buried in the water; and they arose and came forth out of the water rejoicing, being filled with the Spirit.

15 And again, Alma took another, and went forth a second time into the water, and baptized him according to the first, only he did not bury himself again in the water.

16 And after this manner he did baptize every one that went forth to the place of Mormon; and they were in number about two hundred and four souls; yea, and they were baptized in the waters of Mormon, and were filled with the grace of God.

17 And they were called the church of God, or the church of Christ, from that time forward. And it came to pass that whosoever was baptized by the power and authority of God was added to his church.

18 And it came to pass that Alma, having authority from God, ordained priests; even one priest to every fifty of their number did he ordain to preach unto them, and to teach them concerning the things pertaining to the kingdom of God.

19 And he commanded them that they should teach nothing save it were the things which he had taught, and which had been spoken by the mouth of the holy prophets.

20 Yea, even he commanded them that they should preach nothing save it were repentance and faith on the Lord, who had redeemed his people.

21 And he commanded them that there should be no contention one with another, but that they should look forward with one eye, having one faith and one baptism, having their hearts knit together in unity and in love one towards another.

22 And thus he commanded them to preach. And thus they became the children of God.

23 And he commanded them that they should observe the sabbath day, and keep it holy, and also every day they should give thanks to the Lord their God.

24 And he also commanded them that the priests whom he had ordained should labor with their own hands for their support.

25 And there was one day in every week that was set apart that they should gather themselves together to teach the people, and to worship the Lord their God, and also, as often as it was in their power, to assemble themselves together.

26 And the priests were not to depend upon the people for their support; but for their labor they were to receive the grace of God, that they might wax strong in the Spirit, having the knowledge of God, that they might teach with power and authority from God.

27 And again Alma commanded that the people of the church should impart of their substance, every one according to that which he had; if he have more abundantly he should impart more abundantly; and of him that had but little, but little should be required; and to him that had not should be given.

28 And thus they should impart of their substance of their own free will and good desires towards God, and to those priests that stood in need, yea, and to every needy, naked soul.

29 And this he said unto them, having been commanded of God; and they did walk uprightly before God, imparting to one another both temporally and spiritually according to their needs and their wants.

30 And now it came to pass that all this was done in Mormon, yea, by the waters of Mormon, in the forest that was near the waters of Mormon; yea, the place of Mormon, the waters of Mormon, the forest of Mormon, how beautiful are they to the eyes of them who there came to the knowledge of their Redeemer; yea, and how blessed are they, for they shall sing to his praise forever.

31 And these things were done in the borders of the land, that they might not come to the knowledge of the king.

32 But behold, it came to pass that the king, having discovered a movement among the people, sent his servants to watch them. Therefore on the day that they were assembling themselves together to hear the word of the Lord they were discovered unto the king.

33 And now the king said that Alma was stirring up the people to rebellion against him; therefore he sent his army to destroy them.

34 And it came to pass that Alma and the people of the Lord were apprised of the coming of the king's army; therefore they took their tents and their families and departed into the wilderness.

35 And they were in number about four hundred and fifty souls.