Timeframes for seals and millennium = exactly 1000 years?

[Carlos]

I just don't know where the symbolism starts and the literalism begins. It's not a straw argument. You've never defined it. Where does the literalism actually begin?

Seriously, I can't answer this question in general. To understand God's language requires the gift of prophecy. Those who have eyes and ears. Obviously I'm not going to declare I have the gift and you don't or visa versa. All I can do is extend what I see in prophecy and hope someone else appreciates the interpretation. And, as alway's, I'll be glad when all these mysteries are revealed by someone in authority!

[pjbrownie]

Yep and this is where it always comes to. It's a circular argument. I do agree that much of the mystery is better looking at it backwards. Yes I'm waiting for a massive calamity that prepares the way for New Jerusalem--the signs of the end of the sixth seal and beginning of the seventh. Were I to find that we're deep into the seventh seal and the calamities began to resemble trump judgments Armageddon was around the corner, I would gladly modify my beliefs.

However, the last shall be first and the first shall be last. I believe these things come in stages, and the Lord has to prepare the way first.

[NoGreaterLove]

Carlos and all of those who take Hinckleys Joel prophecy to mean it has all been fulfilled.

I have a challenge for all of you. Show me how the part that talks about the Old and New Jerusalem has been fulfilled.

[Carlos]

Carlos and all of those who take Hinckleys Joel prophecy to mean it has all been fulfilled.

I have a challenge for all of you. Show me how the part that talks about the Old and New Jerusalem has been fulfilled.

Sure! But you won't be satisfied because a tree is a tree and nothing else.

32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call.

Mount Zion
A mountain is a place of governance. Mt Zion is the church which physically governs the Lord's people, Zion. It is a representation of God's temporal guidance.

Jerusalem
Israel was divided anciently into Jerusalem and Israel. Jerusalem was where the temple was; Were the priesthood performed purifying ordinances. Jerusalem represents the spiritual guidance of priesthood ordinances.

Thus we see that the remnant, whom the Lord calls, are gathered in the last days to the Lord's designated institutions to find deliverance temporally and spiritually by actively participating in Mt Zion and in Jerusalem. Certainly you don't think there is spiritual deliverance in the physical Old Jerusalem? If you do, then like i say, I think you will have a long wait for deliverance...

Symbolism permeates God's language and this is how I see it. But, as usual, I look forward to the day when someone in authority spoon feeds us with greater clarity.

[NoGreaterLove]

So when the prophets tell us what this scripture means and it contradicts what you are saying, it is ok to ignore what the prophets say and go with your interpretation.

Do I nee do post how the prophets interpret this scripture again.?

32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call.

[pjbrownie]

Carlos and all of those who take Hinckleys Joel prophecy to mean it has all been fulfilled.

I have a challenge for all of you. Show me how the part that talks about the Old and New Jerusalem has been fulfilled.

Sure! But you won't be satisfied because a tree is a tree and nothing else.

32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call.

Mount Zion
A mountain is a place of governance. Mt Zion is the church which physically governs the Lord's people, Zion. It is a representation of God's temporal guidance.

Jerusalem
Israel was divided anciently into Jerusalem and Israel. Jerusalem was where the temple was; Were the priesthood performed purifying ordinances. Jerusalem represents the spiritual guidance of priesthood ordinances.

Thus we see that the remnant, whom the Lord calls, are gathered in the last days to the Lord's designated institutions to find deliverance temporally and spiritually by actively participating in Mt Zion and in Jerusalem. Certainly you don't think there is spiritual deliverance in the physical Old Jerusalem? If you do, then like i say, I think you will have a long wait for deliverance...

Symbolism permeates God's language and this is how I see it. But, as usual, I look forward to the day when someone in authority spoon feeds us with greater clarity.

I actually don't have a big problem with this interpretation. I actually enjoy your insights--how you look at things spiritually--it challenges me to read between the lines more--look at prophetic types, see the symbolism.

However, I'm still not convinced that these things don't culminate in a more literal fulfillment. The Second Coming in and of itself is the literal fulfillment of something that was spiritually and symbolically fulfilled - the triumph of Christ. The entire pageant of end times is one of literal fulfillment. Zion will literally be established as a political kingdom upon the earth, the Saints and lost tribes will physically gather. The Jews will literally build a temple upon the Mount, and Christ will literally ascend from heaven and place his foot on that Mount. It therefore follows that the bad stuff will also be literal, a literal destruction and worldwide calamity will happen not once, but twice, once to prepare the way for Zion upon Babylon, the other as a judgment upon the Beast and his heathen with the seven trump and vial judgments. They have to be literal to fulfill their purposes--to get man to turn to God and repent. History has followed this same pattern over and over again in the scriptures. We are no different.

[kathyn]

pjbrownie, I have to concur. I think that the prophecies have a literal interpretation, as well.

[SmallFarm]

I think we should be ever watchfull for signs to be fulfilled literally but live our lives like they all have been fulfilled and Christ could show up any minute.

[buffalo_girl]

I think we should be ever watchfull for signs to be fulfilled literally but live our lives like they all have been fulfilled and Christ could show up any minute.

I have to agree with SmallFarm.

Frankly, I have no interest in speculating the precise date of Christ's return nor when the Millennium actually begins. It's going to happen regardless.

I prefer to consider the sweet counsel spoken in Jarom 1

11...look forward unto the Messiah, and believe in him to come as though he already was.

From how I read Abraham 4, I believe we are still in the Sixth Day of Creation.

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/abr/4

I also believe the Seventh Seal has been opened.

[pjbrownie]

I think we should be ever watchfull for signs to be fulfilled literally but live our lives like they all have been fulfilled and Christ could show up any minute.

+1

[AngelPalmoni]

Scripture and prophetic interpretation trump my opinion for sure. That being said mostly all these scriptures in Daniel and Revelations and EZK the Church purposely has No or a very vague opinion or position. For most of the stuff I've studied I've been through countless Commentaries and usually they skip over the confusing good deep stuff.

I bet the complex hard to understand things of the bible were left alone in comparison with the small and simple things.... interesting thought huh

[Carlos]

So when the prophets tell us what this scripture means and it contradicts what you are saying, it is ok to ignore what the prophets say and go with your interpretation.

Do I nee do post how the prophets interpret this scripture again.?

32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call.

NGL, I accept the fact that you are very well versed in prophetic interpretations from a large array of prophets and associates, and I admire that. You are very familiar with scripture and I wish I would have a better memory for recalling the many connections in holy writ. You place the words of prophets very highly, and you should!

Question? Why don't you put your resources into helping us understand how Pres Hinckley was very cognizant of his prophetic utterance as he declared a prophecy fulfilled? Peter, on the day of Pentacost, made the same declaration (with the exception of the remnant) as he recognized sun, moon, fire, blood, and pillars of smoke as part of fulfillment. Use your knowledge to help us understand why these great prophets would take the time to quote all these verses and declare them fulfilled. Instead, you go out of your way to shut down people like me who want to make sense of what they said. I want to believe they both were aware of context and depth in what they said....don't you?

Is there only one interpretation of the parable of the Prodigal Son, or all parables for that matter? Is the temple ceremony to be understood one way and no other? Is it possible that if I read scripture commentary written by a prophet then I need not look for more understanding in that scripture because a prophet has closed the door on personal interpretation? Heavens NGL, surely you are not approaching pharisee mentality are you? I hope not.

Why shut down personal insight that lies within gospel boundaries?

PJ, consider this:
DC29: 31 For by the power of my Spirit created I them; yea, all things both spiritual and temporal—
32 First spiritual, secondly temporal, which is the beginning of my work; and again, first temporal, and secondly spiritual, which is the last of my work—

I believe we are still involved in the Lord's creative process. His creation continues and is coming to an end of our 7 day (1000 year/day) process. I personally have no problem accepting that we are in the last of his work and it will have largely spiritual fulfillment. We just need to be looking for it, not with temporal expectations.

[pjbrownie]

So when the prophets tell us what this scripture means and it contradicts what you are saying, it is ok to ignore what the prophets say and go with your interpretation.

Do I nee do post how the prophets interpret this scripture again.?

32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call.

NGL, I accept the fact that you are very well versed in prophetic interpretations from a large array of prophets and associates, and I admire that. You are very familiar with scripture and I wish I would have a better memory for recalling the many connections in holy writ. You place the words of prophets very highly, and you should!

Question? Why don't you put your resources into helping us understand how Pres Hinckley was very cognizant of his prophetic utterance as he declared a prophecy fulfilled? Peter, on the day of Pentacost, made the same declaration (with the exception of the remnant) as he recognized sun, moon, fire, blood, and pillars of smoke as part of fulfillment. Use your knowledge to help us understand why these great prophets would take the time to quote all these verses and declare them fulfilled. Instead, you go out of your way to shut down people like me who want to make sense of what they said. I want to believe they both were aware of context and depth in what they said....don't you?

Is there only one interpretation of the parable of the Prodigal Son, or all parables for that matter? Is the temple ceremony to be understood one way and no other? Is it possible that if I read scripture commentary written by a prophet then I need not look for more understanding in that scripture because a prophet has closed the door on personal interpretation? Heavens NGL, surely you are not approaching pharisee mentality are you? I hope not.

Why shut down personal insight that lies within gospel boundaries?

PJ, consider this:
DC29: 31 For by the power of my Spirit created I them; yea, all things both spiritual and temporal—
32 First spiritual, secondly temporal, which is the beginning of my work; and again, first temporal, and secondly spiritual, which is the last of my work—

I believe we are still involved in the Lord's creative process. His creation continues and is coming to an end of our 7 day (1000 year/day) process. I personally have no problem accepting that we are in the last of his work and it will have largely spiritual fulfillment. We just need to be looking for it, not with temporal expectations.

Carlos, we don't try to shut you down. You are the one that actually has the narrower definition and leave no room for the literal interpretation. I have no problem with the spiritual, I just believe it has broader implications that you have.

[NoGreaterLove]

Carlos
I have tried several times to evaluate what you have said. I have prayed and studied about many of your thoughts.

Each time I have came to the same feeling on the matter. To accept your way of thinking requires one to leave the prophets behind, to set them aside and ignore their wisdom. One even has to spiritualize to a point that the meaning is lost in order to make your theories fit.

The prophets have seen our Savior personally. Have conversed with him and were among the noblest and greatest of the noble and geat ones in the pre earth life. When they have even just an opinion, I listen intently and do not easily veer off of what they say. Their opinions carry a LOT of weight with me. But when they take the time to write books on subjects, knowing that the books are going to be a written statement from them to us, knowing God will hold them accountable, I place a huge amount of trust in what they say.

I refuse to take a preconceived belief that we are in either the sixth or seventh seal and then try to twist the prophecies around to fit my beliefs. The signs of the times point from every direction and they are saying we are not in the seventh seal yet. The only way I could believe we were in the seventh seal would require me to disregard what has been spoken by several prophets and apostles.

I see no one has taken me up on showing me how the New Jerusalem and the Old Jerusalem part of Joel has been fulfilled. This is an easy one for me to answer. This part has not been fulfilled. For those who take Pres Hinckleys statement out of context, it is an impossible task to prove such. You can not do it. Because it has not happened.

The challenge is still there. Someone take me up on it.

You know why it is so easy for me to find quotes from the apostles and prophets that back my statements up. Because that is where I form my beliefs from. I did not just come up with them out of thin air. I started with the scriptures and then went to the writings of modern day prophets and formed my opinions. So my foundation is sure to start off with.

If I make a statement that is my own opinion, I will tell you so. This debate of when the seven seals opens is an easy one. It is so simple to see. Why, because it has already been addressed in Revelations and by modern day prophets.

I have include my thoughts in parentheses. Notice this happens in the sixth seal.

(Doctrine and Covenants 77:9-10.)

9 Q. What are we to understand by the angel ascending from the east, Revelation 7th chapter and 2nd verse?
A. We are to understand that the angel ascending from the east is he to whom is given the seal of the living God over the twelve tribes of Israel; wherefore, he crieth unto the four angels having the everlasting gospel, saying: Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. And, if you will receive it, this is Elias which was to come to gather together the tribes of Israel and restore all things.

10 Q. What time are the things spoken of in this chapter to be accomplished?
A. They are to be accomplished in the sixth thousand years, or the opening of the sixth seal.


(JST Revelation 7:1-17.)

1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

rev. 7:22 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God; and I heard him cry with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,

rev. 7:33 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. ( now Adam-Ondi-Ahmen or Conference in a big way)

rev. 7:44 And the number of them who were sealed, were an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel. (The missionaries are called to teach the lost ten tribes and bring them to Zion)

rev. 7:55 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.

rev. 7:66 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nephthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.

rev. 7:77 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.

rev. 7:88 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.

rev. 7:99 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; ( describing AOA)

rev. 7:1010 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. (The hosanna Shout, A solemn Assembly)

rev. 7:1111 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshiped God,

rev. 7:1212 Saying, Amen; Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honor, and power, and might, be unto our God forever and ever. Amen.

rev. 7:1313 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

rev. 7:1414 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

rev. 7:1515 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple; and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. ( He SHALL dwell among them in the New Jerusalem)

rev. 7:1616 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst anymore; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.

rev. 7:1717 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters; and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

Elder Joseph Fielding Smith, "At that time there will be a transfer of authority from the usurper and imposter, Lucifer, to the rightful King, Jesus Christ. Judgment will be set and all who have held keys will make their reports and deliver their stewardships, as they shall be required. Adam will direct this judgment, and then he will make his report, as the one holding the keys for this earth, to his Superior Officer, Jesus Christ. Our Lord will then assume the reigns of government; directions will be given to the Priesthood; and He, whose right it is to rule, will be installed officially by the voice of the Priesthood there assembled."

[buffalo_girl]

Anyone placing bets on the outcome?

[NoGreaterLove]

Anyone placing bets on the outcome?

We will end up with the same thing we did last time. No one will budge an inch.

[Carlos]

Carlos
I have tried several times to evaluate what you have said. I have prayed and studied about many of your thoughts.

Each time I have came to the same feeling on the matter. To accept your way of thinking requires one to leave the prophets behind, to set them aside and ignore their wisdom. One even has to spiritualize to a point that the meaning is lost in order to make your theories fit.

My above statement concerns reconciling what GBH declared to be fulfilled prophecy, not whether or not we are in the 7th seal. If we can't comfortably digest what GBH declared has already occurred, how can we pretend to comfortably understand an unseen future?

There's no need to discuss future fulfillment if we refuse to reconcile past fulfillment.

[NoGreaterLove]

There's no need to discuss future fulfillment if we refuse to reconcile past fulfillment.

I agree. Thus the challenge.

Why do the prophets in the Old Testament and the Doctrine in Covenants speak about the deliverance found in Mount Zion and Jerusalem as being both physical and spiritual? Why do they say that this deliverance occurs first by Christ beginning his reign in the New Jerusalem and then second when he comes to the Old Jerusalem to complete the establishment of His kingdom? How could the entire prophecy of Joel be fulfilled when Christ has not come yet? How can it be fulfilled until after he has come to both places?

The answer is it can not. It has not happened yet, neither spiritually or physically.

I have included other scriptures that talk about the New Jerusalem. I have also include a discourse talking about how even when Peter referenced the same verses in Joel, he was not insinuating that the entire prophecy was fulfilled. Neither was Pres. Hinckley.

Please read all of these. I know it is a lot. I only posted about 1/5 of the scriptures and quotes, but these should suffice.

If one is to say the entire prophecy of Joel is fulfilled, one has to ignore not only the modern day prophets, but the scriptures themselves.

32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call.

Isaiah 24:23
23 Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.

(Doctrine and Covenants 84:2-3.)

2 Yea, the word of the Lord concerning his church, established in the last days for the restoration of his people, as he has spoken by the mouth of his prophets, and for the gathering of his saints to stand upon Mount Zion, which shall be the city of New Jerusalem.

3 Which city shall be built, beginning at the temple lot, which is appointed by the finger of the Lord, in the western boundaries of the State of Missouri, and dedicated by the hand of Joseph Smith, Jun., and others with whom the Lord was well pleased.

(Doctrine and Covenants 133:17-19.)

17 For behold, the Lord God hath sent forth the angel crying through the midst of heaven, saying: Prepare ye the way of the Lord, and make his paths straight, for the hour of his coming is nigh—

18 When the Lamb shall stand upon Mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand, having his Father's name written on their foreheads. (see revelations 7)

19 Wherefore, prepare ye for the coming of the Bridegroom; go ye, go ye out to meet him. (We see this happens before the 1/2 hour of silence as stated in D&C 88:92)

(2 Kings 19:31.)

31 For out of Jerusalem shall go forth a remnant, and they that escape out of mount Zion: the zeal of the LORD of hosts shall do this

(Psalms 48:2.)

2 Beautiful for situation, the joy of the whole earth, is mount Zion, on the sides of the north, the city of the great King

(Isaiah 4:5-6.)

5 And the LORD will create upon every dwelling place of mount Zion, and upon her assemblies, a cloud and smoke by day, and the shining of a flaming fire by night: for upon all the glory shall be a defence.

6 And there shall be a tabernacle for a shadow in the daytime from the heat, and for a place of refuge, and for a covert from storm and from rain.

(Doctrine and Covenants 76:66-69.)

66 These are they who are come unto Mount Zion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly place, the holiest of all.

67 These are they who have come to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of Enoch, and of the Firstborn. (once again, this compares to Rev 7)

68 These are they whose names are written in heaven, where God and Christ are the judge of all.

69 These are they who are just men made perfect through Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, who wrought out this perfect atonement through the shedding of his own blood. (compares to Rev 7)




In speaking of the last days when the signs of the coming of the Lord shall be made known, Joel has said:

"And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call." (Ch. 2:32.)

These are a few of the passages of scripture which indicate the fact that there are to be two capital cities which will be established when the millennial reign shall come. Zion, the New Jerusalem in America and Jerusalem in Palestine which shall be rebuilt and become a city of magnitude and magnificence. (how can we ignore this?)

(Joseph Fielding Smith, Church History and Modern Revelation, 4 vols. [Salt Lake City: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 1946-1949], 2: 172.)

"Jerusalem of old, after the Jews have been cleansed and sanctified from all their sin, shall become a holy city where the Lord shall dwell and from whence he shall send forth his word unto all people. Likewise, on this continent, the city of Zion, New Jerusalem—shall be built, and from it the law of God shall also go forth. [D&C 45:66, 67; 84:2.] There will be no conflict, for each city shall be headquarters for the Redeemer of the world, and from each he shall send forth his proclamations as occasion may require. Jerusalem shall be the gathering place of Judah and his fellows of the house of Israel, and Zion shall be the gathering place of Ephraim and his fellows, upon whose heads shall be conferred 'the richer blessings.'" [D&C 133:34.] (Joseph Fielding Smith, IE, July, 1919, pp. 815-16.)

"America and Jerusalem are set forth as two places of gathering for the nations, that they may escape the judgments about to overtake the world, as the prophets have testified, that in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance." (Wilford Woodruff, MS 6:136.) (or ignore this)

"Now many will feel disposed to say, that this New Jerusalem spoken of, is the Jerusalem that was built by the Jews on the eastern continent. But you will see, from Revelation xxi:2, there was a New Jerusalem coming down from God out of heaven, adorned as a bride for her husband; that after this, the Revelator was caught away in the Spirit, to a great and high mountain, and saw the great and holy city descending out of heaven from God. Now there are two cities spoken of here. . . . There is a New Jerusalem to be established on this continent, and also Jerusalem shall be rebuilt on the eastern continent (see Book of Mormon, Ether xiii: 1-12). Behold, Ether saw the days of Christ, and he spake also concerning the house of Israel, and the Jerusalem from whence Lehi should come; after it should be destroyed, it should be built up again, a holy city unto the Lord, wherefore it could not be a New Jerusalem, for it had been in a time of old.'" (Joseph Smith, TPJS, p. 86.)

The Jews as a nation become holy from that day forward; and their city and sanctuary becomes holy. There also the Messiah establishes his throne, and seat of government.

EXCERPTS FROM THE "PROCLAMATION OF 1845," BY THE TWELVE APOSTLES

Jerusalem then becomes the seat of empire, and the great centre and capital of the old world.

All the families of the land shall then go up to Jerusalem once a year, to worship the King, the Lord of Hosts, and to keep the feast of Tabernacles.

Those who refuse to go up, shall have no rain, but shall be smitten with dearth and famine. And if the family of Egypt go not up (as it never rains there) they shall be smitten with the plague. And thus all things shall be fulfilled according to the words of the holy prophets of old, and the word of the Lord which is now revealed, to confirm and fulfil them.

In short the kings, rulers, priests and people of Europe, and of the old world, shall know this once that there is a God in Israel, who, as in days of old, can utter his voice, and it shall be obeyed. . . .

While these great events are rolling on the wheels of time, and being fulfilled in the old world, the Western Continent will present a scene of grandeur, greatness, and glory, far surpassing the scene just described.

The Lord will make her that halted a remnant; and gather her that was driven out and afflicted; and make her who was cast afar off, a strong nation; and will reign over them in Mount Zion from that time forth and for ever.

Or, in other words, He will assemble the Natives, the remnants of Joseph in America; and make of them a great, and strong, and powerful nation: and he will civilize and enlighten them, and will establish a holy city, and temple, and seat of government among them, which shall be called Zion.

And there shall be his tabernacle, his sanctuary, his throne, and seat of government for the whole continent of North and South America for ever.

In short, it will be to the western hemisphere what Jerusalem will be to the eastern.


(Daniel H. Ludlow, A Companion to Your Study of the Old Testament [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1981], 86.)


The statement "I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh" does not refer to the bestowal of the Holy Ghost, according to Joseph Fielding Smith: This does not have reference to the bestowal of the Holy Ghost, but to the Spirit of Christ, or Light of Truth, which we are informed is given to "every man that cometh into the world." The predictions are made that through the inspiration of this Spirit, wonderful things are to be accomplished in the latter days. (ST, p. 180.)

2:28-32 Joseph Smith mentioned that these verses were quoted to him by the angel Moroni on September 21, 1823, with the commentary "that this was not yet fulfilled, but was soon to be. And he further stated that the fulness of the Gentiles was soon to come in." (JS-H 1:41.)

2:32 Three different aspects of the gathering might be identified in these words. There shall be deliverance (1) in mount Zion, (2) in Jerusalem, and (3) in "the remnant whom the Lord shall call."

Joseph Fielding Smith has differentiated between "Zion" and "Jerusalem":

There are to be two capital cities which will be established when the millennial reign shall come. Zion, the New Jerusalem in America and Jerusalem in Palestine which shall be rebuilt and become a city of magnitude and magnificence. (CHMR 2:172.)

See the commentary for Isaiah 2:2-4; see also Part I 95, 132-33.

3:1 The wording makes it absolutely clear the Lord is talking about the last days just preceding the second coming of the Messiah—"in those days, and in that time" when he will bring Judah and Jerusalem forth from their captivity. The last clause could have been translated "when I will bring again the exiles of Judah and Jerusalem."

(Daniel H. Ludlow, A Companion to Your Study of the Old Testament [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1981], 365 - 366.)

JOEL'S PROPHECY OF THE DISPENSATION OF "THE LAST DAYS."

Of the special passage referred to above, and which I said would receive separate consideration, is St. Peter's quotation from the Prophet Joel concerning the outpouring of the Spirit of God upon "all flesh in the last days." This quotation from Joel is regarded as identifying the days in which the apostle was speaking as "the last days;" and the dispensation in which he was living as the dispensation of the last days, and of the fulness of times. The conditions existing when St. Peter was speaking, and the prophecy of Joel, however, admit of no such interpretation. The circumstances were as follows: The Holy Ghost in an extraordinary manner rested upon the apostles and gave them the power of speaking in other languages than those they had learned. Some in the listening multitude attributed this singular manifestation to "drunkenness," whereupon St. Peter arose and refuted the slander, saying: "These are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; and it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: and on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: and I will show wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke: the sun shall be turned into darkness and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: and it shall come to pass that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved." fn "For," to finish the passage as it stands in Joel, but which is not in St. Peter's quotation—"For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call." fn

Because St. Peter, referring to the Spirit that was resting upon the twelve apostles, said, "this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel," etc., the very general opinion prevails that Joel's prophecy was then fulfilled; and hence the last days were come. This is an entire misapprehension of the purpose of St. Peter in making the quotation; as also of the quoted passage itself. Beyond all controversy St. Peter meant only: This Spirit which you now see resting upon these apostles of Jesus of Nazareth, is that same Spirit which the prophet Joel says will, in the last days, be poured out upon all flesh. Obviously he did not mean that this occasion of the apostles receiving the Holy Ghost was a complete fulfillment of Joel's prediction. To insist upon such an exegesis would be to charge the chief of the apostles with palpable ignorance of the meaning of Joel's prophecy. On the occasion in question the Holy Ghost was poured out upon the twelve apostles, who were given the power to speak in various tongues; Joel's prophecy, for its complete fulfillment, requires that the Spirit of the Lord, the Holy Ghost, shall be poured out upon all flesh; and undoubtedly refers to that time which shall come in the blessed millennium when the enmity shall not only cease between man and man, but even between the beasts of the forests and of the fields; and between man and beast, as described by Isaiah in the following language:

"The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf, and the young lion, and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. And the suckling child shall play on the hole of the asp; and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice's den. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea." fn

Compare these conditions so vividly described with what Joel himself says of the period when the Spirit of the Lord shall be poured out upon all flesh, and it will at once be clear that the two prophets are dealing with the same period, and not only dealing with the same period, but that the period itself is certainly far beyond in time the days of St. Peter; in fact is still in the future; for the sun has not yet been turned into blackness; nor the moon into blood; nor have the stars withdrawn their shining. It is obvious that the events upon the Day of Pentecost did not fulfill the terms of this prophecy, except in those particulars already pointed out. The mention in this prophecy, however, of those special signs which Jesus refers to as immediately preceding his own second and glorious coming, clearly demonstrate that Joel was speaking of the last days indeed, and not of a circumstance that occurred in connection with a period more properly designated as the "Meridian of Time." Immediately following his prediction of the outpouring of God's Spirit upon "all flesh" Joel represents the Lord as saying: "And I will show wonders in the heavens, and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the Lord come." fn And later: "The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining. The Lord also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the Lord will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel." fn

Compare this with the Savior's description of conditions in the earth that will precede his own second coming:

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: and then shall appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." fn

The same wonders in heaven and earth; the same changes in sun, and moon, and stars; the same promises of the gathering of God's people as are found in the prophecy of Joel. There can be no question, then, but that the prophecy of Joel refers to the same "last days" that Jesus here alludes to—the days of the coming of the Son of Man in glory—and not to the days of St. Peter and the other apostles in the "Meridian of Time."

The sum of the matter then is, that St. Peter was not living in the "last days;" that the prophecy of Joel was not in its entirety fulfilled in the outpouring of the Holy Ghost upon the apostles on the Day of Pentecost; that at no time subsequent to the days of the aforesaid apostles has there existed such conditions in the earth as amount to a fulfillment of Joel's prophecy; therefore at some time future from the days of the apostles, we may look forward to a universal outpouring of the Holy Ghost upon "all flesh," resulting in a universal peace and widespread knowledge of God, brought about, unquestionably, by a subsequent dispensation of the gospel from that in which St. Peter wrought.


(B. H. Roberts, A Comprehensive History of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 6 vols. [Salt Lake City: Deseret News Press, 1930], 1: xl.)

[Cowboy]

Carlos
I have tried several times to evaluate what you have said. I have prayed and studied about many of your thoughts.

Each time I have came to the same feeling on the matter. To accept your way of thinking requires one to leave the prophets behind, to set them aside and ignore their wisdom. One even has to spiritualize to a point that the meaning is lost in order to make your theories fit.

My above statement concerns reconciling what GBH declared to be fulfilled prophecy, not whether or not we are in the 7th seal. If we can't comfortably digest what GBH declared has already occurred, how can we pretend to comfortably understand an unseen future?

There's no need to discuss future fulfillment if we refuse to reconcile past fulfillment.

+1

[pjbrownie]

Carlos, I can comfortably reconcile past fulfillment. When President Hinckley stated that Joel 2 had been fulfilled, he was stating that it had been fulfilled spiritually, or symbolically with the restoration.

A greater temporal fulfillment is future yet and must be in order for the last verse of Joel 2 to be applicable in its fullest sense.

[Joppa]

NGL are you saying Joel 2:32 can't be fullfilled till the seventh seal, right before Christ comes in glory?

[NoGreaterLove]

NGL are you saying Joel 2:32 can't be fullfilled till the seventh seal, right before Christ comes in glory?

My studies lead me to believe the prophecy of Joel will not be entirely fulfilled until after Christ comes in His Glory to the Old Jerusalem and sets up his throne their also. For deliverance will not come to both places mentioned in the prophecy until this happens.

The prophecy of Joel is an ongoing prophecy that began at a given time and has its crowning when the world finds deliverance in both places. That deliverance is offered because Christ has subdued all enemies under his feet and has established his throne, not only in the New Jerusalem, which is first, but also the Old Jerusalem. Deliverance is the key. Delivered from what? I believe it means to be delivered from the whore of all the earth.

Christ comes as a thief in the night. When would you know that a thief had come into your house at midnight while you were asleep? Not until the sun rises and wakes you in the morning.

Christ comes to NJ at midnight, while the world is asleep. The world does not know he has come until he comes as the sun does, ascending from the east unto the west to the Mount of Olives in his glory.
The first shall be last and the last shall be first.

The Gentiles (meaning, everyone except the Jews) will enjoy the presence of Christ in NJ and will be delivered first, then the Jews receive their deliverance last at the OJ. A reversal of what happened when he first appeared to the Jews in the flesh and then to the "other sheep".

When AOA happens we are told that Satan has no more power over the saints in the NJ. I can find the quotes if you need them. For he is bound into bundles and ready to be burned. To be bound into bundles is to gather into one place for the burning. It does not mean the burning has happened.

The burning comes at the OJ appearance as spoken of in Revelations as the angels sound their trumps.

Deliverance comes first to the saints at Mount Zion and then later to the Jews at Old Jerusalem. Deliverance is offered by the appearance of Christ himself taking over the reigns of the government in both places. The King himself delivers us by taking over the governments of the earth.

Christ reigns for a thousand years. His reign begins when he receives the keys at AOA which is the beginning of the Millennium (that is what the Millennium is, Christ reigning for a thousand years). Satan is bound first for the saints at the NJ and then bound for the rest of the world at OJ where his kingdom is burned. This fits D&C and Revelations, plus the prophecies of Malachi, Joel, Isaiah and Daniel.

If you would like to research yourself, go to LDS.org and search the standard works and conference talks for such phrases as: Mount Zion, deliverance, Ancient of days, bundles,. Read them together to get a picture of what is being said about the same events.

I consider these things I have said to be true and not my own opinion unless otherwise stated. I am willing to back them up with scriptures and modern day prophecies if needed.

[pjbrownie]

Too add to NGL, it's hard for us to wrap our minds around the deliverance of the Gentiles (Ephraim, Gentiles, etc.) and the Jews (Lamanites and Jews). The last shall be first and the first shall be last. It's in the Book of Mormon introduction. And it doesn't happen overnight. The gathering of the Gentiles is winding down, the gathering of the Jews (Lamanites) is beginning, as well as the Lost Tribes. There come a point, however, when the Gentiles will need their judgment, and righteous must be delivered. It happens first. It happens in America. It is called the Cleansing of Zion or America. Once this occurs, the missionary work will really take off (we've not seen anything yet). The promises of an Ensign to the Nations is barely a blip of what it will be. I believe we are in the process of seeing this happen right now, we may have this cleansing in the next 5 years.

Now you're going to need some time to do this work, to finish the work of gathering the rest of Israel (the tribes and the Jews last). That's the REASON for the period of silence. Silence from what? Something very noisy must be at each end. One calamity and judgment for the Gentiles, and then one for the Israel, the Jews. The calamities are pointed out in a very detailed way in Isaiah. The Savior has told us to study it, so has Jacob, Nephi, and Mormon and Moroni. Why? To tell us what to expect.

I really feel that it is hard to understand what Joel, John the Revelator, or Ezekiel are really trying to say without understand what Isaiah is trying to say first. For example, after reading Isaiah, one seems to get the idea that Joel 2 is a description of the judgments and blessings upon the Gentiles and that Joel 3 is a prophecy about judgment and prophecy upon Israel and the Jews. The same with Ezekiel 37-38. When Ezekiel talks about Gog going against the land of unwalled villages, to "take a spoil," I believe he is prophesying against the Gentiles or America. As the story progresses, Gog is turned back (defeated), but a "hook is put in his jaw" and he is now brought forth against the Jews (Armageddon).

So what are these first calamities, the judgments upon the Gentiles as discussed in 2 Nephi as well as Joel, Isaiah, and Ezekiel? They are signs of the sixth seal, the end of the sixth seal that prepares the way for the seventh seal and prepares the way for what John says next, before he even goes into the seventh seal and what it is and the half hour of silence. John segues into a discussion on the 144,000 and their mission, the saint at the throne of God. Why did he put this here? It's not coincidence. After these calamities of the sixth seal, the Saints are delivered, it's a description of Adam Ondi-Ahman in my opinion. Before we even get to the judgments of the seventh seal, we must have Adam Ondi Ahman and the redemption of Zion as a political force.

This is what I see.

[NoGreaterLove]

Wow PJB
I would have wrote it the same way. We see eye to eye exactly on this one! It fits perfectly. I totally agree with the way you see Joel and how it speaks of two cleansings.

[Amore Vero]

I agree with Angelpalmoni, I believe that we are now in the 'half hour of silence'. The Prophet's silence is deafening. Under our present Sodom & Gomorrah circumstances, those who see how bad it is, in & out of the Church, would think the Prophet would get on a wall like Samuel did or show righteous indignation like Moroni & rally people to see & vigorously fight the evil around us & warn the people of the great destructions about to happen to them, because of total wickedness & blindness everywhere. For that would be the natural & righteous reaction to help save a people you have stewardship over right before they are going to be destroyed. Thus, it seems it is too late for anymore strong warnings.

All is very quiet in the Church & you see no one that concerned or upset as you would expect, except the few members who really see what's happening & thus, are inspired to be Samuels & Moroni's as well as they can. But even they who try to warn others to repentance are rejected, persecuted & cast out. Things are so dire for all members, it seems our time for warning has passed & all is quiet.

It seems too late to really try to wake up members now, for instead of repenting, most all seem like they would just get angry & it would make things even worse. The Prophets have already said it all & few listened. Most everyone seems to have rejected it. Blindness is a choice & most all members seem to 'want' to remain blind & not see the evil happening around them in their families, friends, wards, cities & country or what's coming because of it.

I believe it's definately the silence before the storm.