Timeframes for seals and millennium = exactly 1000 years?

[Larry]

When will the Millennium begin?

Opinions vary:

• At the Second Coming?
• At the opening of the Seventh Seal?
• At Adam-ondi-Ahman?

Other assumptions complicate the equation, such as:

• Whether or not the seven seals must be exactly 1000 years each
• Whether Adam-ondi-Ahman occurs in the Sixth Seal or the Seventh Seal
• Whether or not the Millennium must be exactly 1000 years
• Whether or not the Millennium includes the Little Season

Below, I will present some scripture references related to the following topics, to begin a foundation:

1. Seals
2. Timeframe for Second Coming = after opening of Seventh Seal
3. Length and Conditions of the Millennium
4. The Little Season

Seals

We know from D&C 77 that each seal represents 1000 years of this earth’s “temporal existence.”

D&C 77:6-7
6 Q. What are we to understand by the book which John saw, which was sealed on the back with seven seals?
A. We are to understand that it contains the revealed will, mysteries, and the works of God; the hidden things of his economy concerning this earth during the seven thousand years of its continuance, or its temporal existence.
7 Q. What are we to understand by the seven seals with which it was sealed?
A. We are to understand that the first seal contains the things of the first thousand years, and the second also of the second thousand years, and so on until the seventh.

Timeframe for Second Coming

We also know that the Second Coming will not occur until AFTER the opening of the Seventh Seal:

D&C 77:13
Q. When are the things to be accomplished, which are written in the 9th chapter of Revelation?
A. They are to be accomplished after the opening of the seventh seal, before the coming of Christ.

[See the Second Coming.jpg attachment below, which is not necessarily drawn to scale.]


Length and Conditions of the Millennium

Thank you, NGL (in a prior thread), for the following:

"And it came to pass that Enoch saw the day of the coming of the Son of Man, in the last days, to dwell on the earth in righteousness for the space of a thousand years."

"For I will reveal myself from heaven with power and great glory, with all the hosts thereof, and dwell in righteousness with men on earth a thousand years, and the wicked shall not stand."

"Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."


The Little Season

No definite duration for the Little Season is given in any of the following four scripture references. However, the final two references listed below shed some light on whether or not the Millennium should include the Little Season:

D&C 43:31
For Satan shall be bound, and when he is loosed again he shall only reign for a little season, and then cometh the end of the earth.

D&C 88:111
And then he shall be loosed for a little season, that he may gather together his armies.

Revelation 20:3
And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

D&C 29:22
And again, verily, verily, I say unto you that when the thousand years are ended, and men again begin to deny their God, then will I spare the earth but for a little season;


Possible Timeframe Combinations

Below are scenarios and associated graphs. (See the two Scenario attachments below and six more Scenario attachments posted in the next two replies to this thread.) They show just eight of the many possible combinations related to timeframes.

I purposely did not include a scenario showing an overlap of any seals. Also, I purposely did not propose where the year 2010 should fall in any of the graphs.

Which scenario is correct? Or is there a different one that should be listed?

[Larry]

Scenarios #3 through #5:

[Larry]

Scenarios #6 through #8:

[AngelPalmoni]

Seven Seals in Detail...

http://www.ldspalmoni.com/Angel_Palmoni ... _Time.html

[AngelPalmoni]

I noticed that none of your scenarios included the possibility of the 6th seal being shortened... MATT 24:22 and D&C 84:97

[Larry]

Well, I guess I learned my lesson…

I assumed that this thread would generate an interesting discussion about timeframes and such, and that members of this forum would cite scriptural evidences of why they lean toward one scenario or another.

Wrong!

The only thing that happened was that this thread was replied to by someone whose ideas are so far removed from gospel principles and doctrine it’s not even funny. At first I thought, Oh crap! Now no one’s going to participate in a discussion here because AP already slammed us again with his hyperlink to a web site and citing scripture references referring to “days shall be shortened”, which have nothing to do with length of seals.

But I was wrong!

That’s not why people didn’t want to participate in my thread!

People can’t resist bantering back and forth with AP about topics that have nothing to do with anything, such as whether the Holy Ghost isn’t really a spirit being, and about cherubim and seraphim and seven angels. AP didn’t hijack my thread after all.

The problem with my thread was that I left it open-ended. I provided a bunch of alternatives and asked for feedback. That required people to actually think about something and study and come up with their own ideas. But that’s not what they want. They don’t want options. What people really want on this forum is for someone to make a firm decree that this is the way it is, and here’s why. And then they’ll respond with either "I agree" or "No, you’re wrong, and here’s why."

Okay then. I’ll conform.

I opened this thread with the following:

When will the Millennium begin?

This time, I’ll state unequivocally:

• Yes, at the Second Coming
• No, not at the opening of the Seventh Seal
• No, not at Adam-ondi-Ahman

Don’t worry, I’ll cite scripture references as evidence, and not just say, “I could tell you why I think that, but you wouldn’t believe me.”


Millennium Begins at Second Coming

In a separate thread, NGL stated:

Think about this. If Christ and his saints are to rule for exactly 1000 years and this is known as the Millennium, then where are they going to rule from, where is the throne?

NGL, you’re jumping to conclusions here. You make it sound like the only condition that needs to exist for the Millennium to begin is for Christ and his saints to rule.

And then you quoted McConkie and gave your opinion:

“That is to say, after all to whom the keys of God's earthly kingdom have been given have reported their stewardships to Adam; after Adam has received back again the keys delegated to his descendants; then Christ will come, take them unto himself, and reign personally on earth for the space of a thousand years. This is a great initial day of judgment at which Adam presides.”
(Bruce R. McConkie, Sermons and Writings of Bruce R. McConkie [Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1998], 204.)

This is the grand event that ushers in the Millennium.

What happens on the Sabbath day, the seventh day of the week? A meeting where the emblems of Christ are partaken of. A day of peace for the Saints, a day of rest. A holy day. AOA! The ushering in of the Millennium! Christ himself appearing, receiving the keys from Adam and beginning his "1000 year reign", the Millennium.

When McConkie says,

“Christ will come, take them [the keys] unto himself, and reign personally on earth for the space of a thousand years…”

You’re assuming that the thousand years begins at that moment. You arrived at that conclusion on your own!

Still other conditions need to exist in order for the Millennium to begin, which are cited in the list below.

By the way, as you read the following list, consider if any of the stated Millennial conditions will exist during the end of the sixth seal and during the first part of the seventh seal, while the earth is in wickedness and turmoil before the Second Coming and the wicked are destroyed:

• ...my people shall be redeemed and shall reign with me on earth. For the great Millennium…shall come. For Satan shall be bound… And he that liveth in righteousness shall be changed in the twinkling of an eye… (D&C 43:29-32)
• And because of the righteousness of his people, Satan has no power; wherefore, he cannot be loosed for the space of many years…and the Holy One of Israel reigneth. (1 Nephi 22:26)
• For I will reveal myself from heaven with power and great glory, with all the hosts thereof, and dwell in righteousness with men on earth a thousand years, and the wicked shall not stand. (D&C 29:11)
• And in that day the enmity of man, and the enmity of beasts, yea, the enmity of all flesh, shall cease from before my face….And there shall be no sorrow because there is no death… And in that day an infant shall not die until he is old; and his life shall be as the age of a tree; And when he dies he shall not sleep, that is to say in the earth, but shall be changed in the twinkling of an eye, and shall be caught up, and his rest shall be glorious. (D&C 101:26, 29-31)

As seen from this list of references, there are many conditions that must be in effect during the Millennium in addition to the fact that Christ will reign, so the Millennium cannot begin at Adam-ondi-Ahman. The Millennium will begin at the Second Coming.


Adam-ondi-Ahman to Occur During the Seventh Seal

Speaking of Adam-ondi-Ahman, NGL stated:

One set of signs is in the sixth seal and the other set in the seventh seal, one preceding his coming to AOA and the other the Mount of Olives.

Again, you’re jumping to conclusions that the signs in the sixth seal will precede Christ’s appearance at Adam-ondi-Ahman. I agree that signs may precede an appearance by Christ, but that appearance in the sixth seal could very well be at his temple in the New Jerusalem (if that city is even built during the sixth seal).

So when will Adam-ondi-Ahman occur?

According to Daniel:
The Ancient of Days [Adam] will not appear until the thrones [nations] are cast down:

I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit… (Daniel 7:9)

In other words, there will be an end to all nations before Adam-ondi-Ahman can occur. But that doesn’t happen during the sixth seal. Nations will continue to exist during the beginning of the seventh seal, when they will gather at Armageddon:

2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle…
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. (Zechariah 14:2-3)

But those nations will cease to exist after the Lord fights against those nations, as explained in Rev 11 below: At the end of the Battle of Armageddon, the two prophets in Jerusalem will be resurrected at the sound of the First Trump, a great earthquake will split the Mount of Olives, and the kingdoms of this world will be no more, so Christ will reign:

Rev 11:11-15
11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven [First Trump] saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake [Mount of Olives], and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Therefore, Adam-ondi-Ahman will not occur until AFTER Christ’s appearance at the Mount of Olives.

This same sequence is explained by Zechariah below (as a continuation of the two verses I cited above concerning the nations fighting against Jerusalem).

As you can see, the following sequence of verses (4-9) is talking about Christ’s appearance at the Mount of Olives, the resulting earthquake, and the Mount of Olives being split in two:

4 ¶ And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.
(Zechariah 14:4 - 9)


Adam-ondi-Ahman on the Same Day as the Mount of Olives

Notice verse 9 above, which states that on that very day, the Lord will be king over all the earth, meaning that at Adam-ondi-Ahman (later that day after Christ’s appearance at the Mount of Olives), Christ will be received and acknowledged as the rightful ruler of the earth.

In an earlier thread on proposed dates for the seventh seal,
(http://www.ldsfreedomforum.com/viewtopi ... =2&t=12381)
I stated that the resurrection of the righteous and Christ’s appearance at the Mount of Olives would occur on April 1, 2033.

If you wanted to test that date and went to John Pratt’s spreadsheet,
(http://www.johnpratt.com/items/calendar ... elist.html)
you would’ve noticed that plugging in just April 1, 2033 wouldn’t have resulted in the correct date. You would’ve had to plug in “1 Apr 2033 pm”, meaning that New Year’s Day on the Jewish calendar that year wouldn’t occur until sunset that day. At first, I thought that after sunset was a peculiar time of day for Christ to appear and for the righteous to be resurrected. Wouldn’t it make more sense for that to happen in the morning?

But Zechariah validates the evening scenario:

6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.

My guess is that, in addition to Christ’s appearance, there will be a comet very near the earth, reflecting the sun’s light, and casting an eerie, pale light on the earth after the sun has set. This comet will also be the source of the great earthquake that splits the Mount of Olives in two, and the source of the hailstones that fall on the armies at Armageddon.

Also, there will be plenty of time that day for all events to take place. Sunset will occur at 5:58 p.m. in Jerusalem on April 1, 2033. At that moment, it will be 9:58 a.m. in the Central time zone (Adam-ondi-Ahman). Christ will appear to the Jews and fight against those nations that had gathered against Jerusalem. According to Zech 14:2, “all nations” would be gathered, so Christ will put an end to all nations. Then, later that day, he will appear at Adam-ondi-Ahman to be received and acknowledged as the rightful ruler of the earth.


Completing the Topics

In my original post, I stated that other assumptions complicate the equation. But it’s not so complicated after all:

• No, the seven seals do NOT need to be exactly 1000 years each
• Adam-ondi-Ahman occurs in the Seventh Seal, on the same day as Christ’s appearance at the Mount of Olives
• Yes, the Millennium is most likely exactly 1000 years
• No, the Millennium does NOT include the Little Season

Therefore, Scenario #4 is correct:

[PSCahill]

I don't know about exact...seems Dr. John P. Pratt (and maybe Isaac Newton?) use the number 1008, with a great explanation but I forget what.... I did a quick search, don't have time today to find it, maybe another Pratt fan remembers?

[CBentley]

I don't know about exact...seems Dr. John P. Pratt (and maybe Isaac Newton?) use the number 1008, with a great explanation but I forget what.... I did a quick search, don't have time today to find it, maybe another Pratt fan remembers?

http://www.johnpratt.com/items/docs/lds ... ronos.html

"One clue that Chronos is designed to reckon the entire seven millennia of world history is that counting 12 sets of 84 years equals 1,008 years, which is very close to one millennium. Counting seven sets of those millennia yields 7,056 years. In other words, counting 84 sets of 84 years yields exactly 7,056 years, divided nicely into seven equal parts."

Footnote 6:

"I know that readers will calculate that this implies that the last millennium would begin in the year 2044. Before anyone gets too excited about predicting the Second Coming, remember that these are only approximate times. The Savior was born some 28 years before the end of the fourth millennium on the Chronos (Sidereal) Calendar, and it is only in retrospect that we can identify what event seems to be tied to the actual start of the fifth millennium. And nothing more happened than the Savior beginning his ministry. There are at least a dozen sacred calendars, and each has a different starting point for the last millennium. So the existence of these calendars only indicates general time patterns, but they do not predict the exact timing of any known events."

[NoGreaterLove]

Larry
I am not interested in debating this with you. Thanks for the insight. I do humbly disagree. Joseph Smith said the beginning of the Millennium occurs at AOA. I have posted the quote on this forum. You should be able to find it. I read your post, but it has a lot of holes in it that need to be addressed one by one. However, I am not the one who is going to do this. Hopefully someone else will see those holes and address them.

[NoGreaterLove]

I found two of them. There is one more somewhere.

VOICE OF THE PRIESTHOOD

This council in the valley of Adam-ondi-Ahman is to be of the greatest importance to this world. At that time there will be a transfer of authority from the usurper and imposter, Lucifer, to the rightful King, Jesus Christ. Judgment will be set and all who have held keys will make their reports and deliver their stewardships, as they shall be required. Adam will direct this judgment, and then he will make his report, as the one holding the keys for this earth, to his Superior Officer, Jesus Christ. Our Lord will then assume the reigns of government; directions will be given to the Priesthood; and He, whose right it is to rule, will be installed officially by the voice of the Priesthood there assembled. This grand council of Priesthood will be composed, not only of those who are faithful who now dwell on this earth, but also of the prophets and apostles of old, who have had directing authority. Others may also be there, but if so they will be there by appointment, for this is to be an official council called to attend to the most momentous matters concerning the destiny of this earth.When this gathering is held, the world will not know of it; the members of the Church at large will not know of it, yet it shall be preparatory to the coming in the clouds of glory of our Savior Jesus Christ as the Prophet Joseph Smith has said. The world cannot know of it. The Saints cannot know of it-except those who officially shall be called into this council-for it shall precede the coming of Jesus Christ as a thief in the night, unbeknown to all the world.

Joseph Fielding Smith, Way to Perfection, p. 291

But Doctrine and Covenants 77 states that the seventh seal and the seventh thousand years coincide. That being the case, the Millennium will have begun before the Second Coming at the time the Savior begins to reign on this earth at the great council at Adam-Ondi-Ahman. According to Elder Joseph Fielding Smith, "At that time there will be a transfer of authority from the usurper and imposter, Lucifer, to the rightful King, Jesus Christ. Judgment will be set and all who have held keys will make their reports and deliver their stewardships, as they shall be required. Adam will direct this judgment, and then he will make his report, as the one holding the keys for this earth, to his Superior Officer, Jesus Christ. Our Lord will then assume the reigns of government; directions will be given to the Priesthood; and He, whose right it is to rule, will be installed officially by the voice of the Priesthood there assembled."
Richard D. Draper, Opening of the Seven Seals, P. 95

Christ begins his reign at AOA. He reigns for 1000 years. He comes as a thief in the night. No one knows that a thief in the night has come until the morning when they wake up. The thief comes at midnight. The world does not wake up until the sun comes up. The 1000 year reign of the Lord upon the earth is otherwise known as the Millennium. It fits together like a well carved puzzle.

[Larry]

I don't know about exact...seems Dr. John P. Pratt (and maybe Isaac Newton?) use the number 1008, with a great explanation but I forget what.... I did a quick search, don't have time today to find it, maybe another Pratt fan remembers?

http://www.johnpratt.com/items/docs/lds ... ronos.html

"One clue that Chronos is designed to reckon the entire seven millennia of world history is that counting 12 sets of 84 years equals 1,008 years, which is very close to one millennium. Counting seven sets of those millennia yields 7,056 years. In other words, counting 84 sets of 84 years yields exactly 7,056 years, divided nicely into seven equal parts."

Footnote 6:

"I know that readers will calculate that this implies that the last millennium would begin in the year 2044. Before anyone gets too excited about predicting the Second Coming, remember that these are only approximate times. The Savior was born some 28 years before the end of the fourth millennium on the Chronos (Sidereal) Calendar, and it is only in retrospect that we can identify what event seems to be tied to the actual start of the fifth millennium. And nothing more happened than the Savior beginning his ministry. There are at least a dozen sacred calendars, and each has a different starting point for the last millennium. So the existence of these calendars only indicates general time patterns, but they do not predict the exact timing of any known events."

I've read John Pratt's articles, but I'd forgotten about that one. What a great quote!

Adding this information to my theoretical timeline yields:

2012 = Opening of Seventh Seal
2033 = Appearance at Mount of Olives, Adam-ondi-Ahman (Christ begins his reign)
+8 years
2041 = Christ's Second Coming in Glory
+1000 years (making a total of 1008 years of Christ's reign)
3041 = Start of Little Season
+15 years
3056 = Ending of the Earth

Don't worry, I'm not getting too excited about predicting the Second Coming... The exact years specified are all speculation, of course.

[Larry]

Christ begins his reign at AOA. He reigns for 1000 years. He comes as a thief in the night. No one knows that a thief in the night has come until the morning when they wake up. The thief comes at midnight. The world does not wake up until the sun comes up. The 1000 year reign of the Lord upon the earth is otherwise known as the Millennium. It fits together like a well carved puzzle.

I suppose it all comes down to one's definition of Millennium:

1) Millennium - The period of time during which the Lord Jesus Christ will reign as King.
2) Millennium - The period of time during which Satan shall be bound, there will be no death, the enmity of men and beasts will cease, and the Lord Jesus Christ will reign as King.

If one's definition is (1) above, then yes, Adam-ondi-Ahman will usher in the Millennium.
If one's definition is (2) above, then the Millennium begins at the Second Coming.

[AngelPalmoni]

I guess I'll just stay out of it then lol

[Cowboy]

Scenario #5 has it right on the button!

[pjbrownie]

Christ begins his reign at AOA. He reigns for 1000 years. He comes as a thief in the night. No one knows that a thief in the night has come until the morning when they wake up. The thief comes at midnight. The world does not wake up until the sun comes up. The 1000 year reign of the Lord upon the earth is otherwise known as the Millennium. It fits together like a well carved puzzle.

I suppose it all comes down to one's definition of Millennium:

1) Millennium - The period of time during which the Lord Jesus Christ will reign as King.
2) Millennium - The period of time during which Satan shall be bound, there will be no death, the enmity of men and beasts will cease, and the Lord Jesus Christ will reign as King.

If one's definition is (1) above, then yes, Adam-ondi-Ahman will usher in the Millennium.
If one's definition is (2) above, then the Millennium begins at the Second Coming.

Larry, one problem to posit is the definition of terms. I can go with the Millennium binding Satan for 1,000 years, but in one sense, it doesn't happen overnight. One could say that it has already begun to happen with the restoration of the Priesthood. The binding and separation of the wheat and tares (Zion from the Old World) will be another watershed event that probably coincides with AOA, however, Satan will still rule on the other side of the sphere until the Mount of Olives. Even then, the heathen nations will fall into chaos and ruin and will not be fully redeemed until after the appearance in glory to all mankind. These are all phased events with some overlap.

As far as the seals, the second coming, and millennium are concerned, I look more to signs then I do to any discrete measure. A 1983 Ensign article helps elaborate. http://lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideN ... 82620aRCRD

If you look closely, they do not try to define discrete time, but only relative time. If it's good enough for the church, it's good enough for me.

[AngelPalmoni]

If you look closely, they do not try to define discrete time, but only relative time. If it's good enough for the church, it's good enough for me.

Well relative time is good, whatever gets you prepared and righteous. However why are there so many scriptures and timelines in the scriptures. Why would the Lord put 7 seals and 7 thousand years, Times time and dividing of a Time, Times time and Halve a Time. 2300 days 1290 days 1335 days, Ezk 4:6 Each day for a Year. 7 Times,... and many more...

[pjbrownie]

Well relative time is good, whatever gets you prepared and righteous. However why are there so many scriptures and timelines in the scriptures. Why would the Lord put 7 seals and 7 thousand years, Times time and dividing of a Time, Times time and Halve a Time. 2300 days 1290 days 1335 days, Ezk 4:6 Each day for a Year. 7 Times,... and many more...

Probably to help, but the BEST help is to understand the parable of the fig tree. Once you understand that, you only need to look at what's coming NEXT, because it's based on relative time. Usually timeframes are only understood AFTER the fact. For example, we understand the historical implication of 1260 years because it has already happened. It is too easy to misinterpret jubilees, groups of seven, etc. often because we're not sure where to start. Are we using the Hebrew calendar or the Gregorian one? Has history been recorded accurately, etc.

I have come to care less and less about what is or what is not a seal, or exactly what year such and such will happen. What I see is that the Times of the Gentiles are quickly coming to and end (if they haven't) already, and I'm looking for the judgments upon the Gentiles, the missionaries being called home, the shaking of the earth, the calamities, and wars that will judge the West, and prepare the way for Zion to inherit the American continents, return to the keys to Christ at Adam Ondi-Ahman and establish the New Jerusalem--all of this preparatory to the great and final missionary work to the Jews, to the Lost Tribes, etc. that will bring the other side of the world into the great conflagration of Armageddon. Whether or not something takes place in such and such year is incidental--and causes problems--we start to play the game of the Jehovah's Witnesses who definitely had the Second Coming pegged in 1917 and now they look at it symbolically--when it is pure folly.

Let's stick to understanding the signs.

[Carlos]

When will the Millennium begin?

I also like senario #5. Christ will come after a cleansing process. AOA should occur when the work is finished, and that hasn't happened yet.

12 Q. What are we to understand by the sounding of the trumpets, mentioned in the 8th chapter of Revelation?
A. We are to understand that as God made the world in six days, and on the seventh day he finished his work, and sanctified it, and also formed man out of the dust of the earth, even so, in the beginning of the seventh thousand years will the Lord God sanctify the earth, and complete the salvation of man, and judge all things, and shall redeem all things, except that which he hath not put into his power, when he shall have sealed all things, unto the end of all things; and the sounding of the trumpets of the seven angels are the preparing and finishing of his work, in the beginning of the seventh thousand years—the preparing of the way before the time of his coming.

I like the implication in this verse that links the days of creation with the seals. The seventh day of creation is a type or a spiritual description of the seventh seal. There will be a sanctification before the time of rest.

That being said, I also opine that the sounding of the trumpets have been occurring since 2001. The preparing of the finishing of his work has begun. World events since 2001 have specifically prepared the US for the cleansing it will receive shortly. A necessary prelude to the establishment of the New Jerusalem.

These are signs I see. PJ and NGL are keenly focused on the planet shaking and the sun turning off, missionaries called home, headlines from AOA, 10 tribes appearing out of nowhere, getting hit by falling figs, etc. I also opine they will have a long wait, but will quickly come around when it is explained in General Conference. Of course, we'll all appreciate that session of conference!

[buffalo_girl]

From how I read Abraham 4, I believe we are still in the Sixth Day of Creation.

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/abr/4

Frankly, I have no interest in speculating the precise date of Christ's return nor when the Millennium actually begins. It's going to happen regardless.

I prefer to consider the sweet counsel spoken in Jarom 1

11...look forward unto the Messiah, and believe in him to come as though he already was.

[pjbrownie]

When will the Millennium begin?

I also like senario #5. Christ will come after a cleansing process. AOA should occur when the work is finished, and that hasn't happened yet.

12 Q. What are we to understand by the sounding of the trumpets, mentioned in the 8th chapter of Revelation?
A. We are to understand that as God made the world in six days, and on the seventh day he finished his work, and sanctified it, and also formed man out of the dust of the earth, even so, in the beginning of the seventh thousand years will the Lord God sanctify the earth, and complete the salvation of man, and judge all things, and shall redeem all things, except that which he hath not put into his power, when he shall have sealed all things, unto the end of all things; and the sounding of the trumpets of the seven angels are the preparing and finishing of his work, in the beginning of the seventh thousand years—the preparing of the way before the time of his coming.

I like the implication in this verse that links the days of creation with the seals. The seventh day of creation is a type or a spiritual description of the seventh seal. There will be a sanctification before the time of rest.

That being said, I also opine that the sounding of the trumpets have been occurring since 2001. The preparing of the finishing of his work has begun. World events since 2001 have specifically prepared the US for the cleansing it will receive shortly. A necessary prelude to the establishment of the New Jerusalem.

These are signs I see. PJ and NGL are keenly focused on the planet shaking and the sun turning off, missionaries called home, headlines from AOA, 10 tribes appearing out of nowhere, getting hit by falling figs, etc. I also opine they will have a long wait, but will quickly come around when it is explained in General Conference. Of course, we'll all appreciate that session of conference!

Correct, Carlos, I'll be sitting around blogging and having no idea what is going on. The prophet will appear at the pulpit and we'll all be astonished because all of these things will have happened symbolically--I bet even the coming in glory, right? It will be just like the Jehovah's Witnesses--I can't wait.

[AngelPalmoni]

A possibility as well is that chapters 8 and 9 of revelations could just be accountings of things that happened in previous SEALS. So instead of all that happening it has already happened in which the Last days will be really bad still but not HORRIBLY TERRIBLE as most see it. Giving an accounting of your stewardship is symbolic especially in the Temple. So at that great last meeting... The Angels of the Seals will give an accounting.

[buffalo_girl]

A possibility as well is that chapters 8 and 9 of revelations could just be accountings of things that happened in previous SEALS. So instead of all that happening it has already happened in which the Last days will be really bad still but not HORRIBLY TERRIBLE as most see it.

Nice thought.

The Book of Joel speaks to the desolation preceding the Second Coming of the Lord. Joel 2:5 has a footnote reference to Revelation 9:9.

9 And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the asound of chariots of many horses running to battle.
10 And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails:

I believe Revelation 9 describes warfare utilizing aircraft; including chemical spraying, missile attacks, and remote controlled space based technology.

Joel 2
5 Like the noise of chariots on the tops of mountains shall they leap, like the noise of a flame of fire that devoureth the stubble, as a strong people set in battle array.
6 Before their face the people shall be much pained: all faces shall gather blackness.
7 They shall run like mighty men; they shall climb the wall like men of war; and they shall march every one on his ways, and they shall not break their ranks:
8 Neither shall one thrust another; they shall walk every one in his path: and when they fall upon the sword, they shall not be wounded.
9 They shall run to and fro in the city; they shall run upon the wall, they shall climb up upon the houses; they shall enter in at the windows like a thief.
10 The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:

The Joel 1 & half of 2 seems to relate a pretty accurate vision of cloned and/or robotic armed forces with unheard of capabilities in Joel's time.

Revelation 9 doesn't seem to describe anything prior to WWII in my view, certainly nothing John would have witnessed in the Meridian of Time. I was never able to make any sense of Revelation 9 - believe me I tried - until 2002 when I became painfully aware of what was going on above the planet.

[Carlos]

Correct, Carlos, I'll be sitting around blogging and having no idea what is going on. The prophet will appear at the pulpit and we'll all be astonished because all of these things will have happened symbolically

What you describe has already taken place...Pres Hinckley's declaration of Joel, from the pulpit. A clear declaration which has left most of you literalists still scratching your heads and doubting what you heard. Yes, I look forward to the explanation so that the fig fight will cease!
BTW, I am aware of no one on this board who has suggested that the the second coming will be symbolic, yet you continue to raise this strawman when your feathers are ruffled. You must have had a tough time with the J-dubbs in the mish...sorry.

"Let's stick to understanding the signs!" And the prophecies.

[Carlos]

Understanding prophecies requires one understand the words, some of which are symbolic. Here is an example.

Psalms 1: 1 Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.
2 But his delight is in the law of the Lord; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.
3 And he (the righteous) shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper.
4 The ungodly are not so: but are like the chaff (grass) which the wind driveth away.

In these verses, clearly, trees are symbols of righteous men and grass (chaff) is a symbol for the ungodly. Scriptures are full of symbolic language where herbs, wheat, fish, birds, beasts, sun, moon, stars, waters, and creatures are used to describe classes of men.

Now we have a prophecy:
Rev 8:7 The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.

One could interpret this verse:
A.) to be totally catastrophic as fiery meteorites slam into the earth and burn up all the green grass and 1/3 of the trees on this planet. OR, one could envision
B.) that hail (famine) will be accompanied by violence (fire mingled with blood) will bring God's judgment (burning) to all the prosperous ungodly people (green grass) and a portion (1/3) of the righteous men (trees).

Personally I have a difficult time wrapping my mind around a literal fire which devours all green grass, yet doesn't destroy all living creatures in the process. Sure we could have a Moses in Egypt event and I'll obviously believe it when I see it.

In the meantime, I look around at my world and prophecies which concern America, and I am more inclined to accept explanation B as an event which will occur in America (the earth) as the Lord prepares the world for the second coming. After all, that is what the scriptures (DC77) say is the purpose of the trumpets, prepare his people for his return.

Recognizing symbolism in prophecy allows one to recognize possible fulfillment. Signs are better understood...IMO.

[pjbrownie]

Correct, Carlos, I'll be sitting around blogging and having no idea what is going on. The prophet will appear at the pulpit and we'll all be astonished because all of these things will have happened symbolically

What you describe has already taken place...Pres Hinckley's declaration of Joel, from the pulpit. A clear declaration which has left most of you literalists still scratching your heads and doubting what you heard. Yes, I look forward to the explanation so that the fig fight will cease!
BTW, I am aware of no one on this board who has suggested that the the second coming will be symbolic, yet you continue to raise this strawman when your feathers are ruffled. You must have had a tough time with the J-dubbs in the mish...sorry.

"Let's stick to understanding the signs!" And the prophecies.

Yes, and I believe you all have taken our former prophet out of context. Remember a few months ago we argued this to infinity to no avail. http://www.ldsfreedomforum.com/viewtopi ... lit=joel+2

It was clear that we have visions and dreams. Not so clear we've had sun and moon to blood and dark, pillars of smoke etc. And it's definitely true that New Jerusalem has not been established and Old Jerusalem has not been redeemed, but I guess since Hinckley quoted it to support a premise about dreams and visions, the entirety of it must have already come to pass.

Should we argue this again?

I just don't know where the symbolism starts and the literalism begins. It's not a straw argument. You've never defined it. Where does the literalism actually begin?