The Holy Ghost and the Millenium

[Amore Vero]

When the Spirit teaches a truth to someone, it can be 'fact' to that person for they know it's true & they may present it to others as a 'fact', for to them it is. If it is something that the Spirit taught & hasn't yet been taught by Prophets then it cannot always be backed up by scripture or Prophetic quotes, so the hearer must also use the Spirit to help them know if it''s true or not.

Our requests for proof or references is not needed if we possess the Spirit to tell us if something is true or not. If the Spirit does tell us something someone says is in fact 'true' then we may want to study it all out on our own & find out why it's true. At that point any references given will just prove helpful but not a necessity.

Also we are expected to do our own due diligence - research it and study it out in our minds. The gospel is a deep pool and we are the limiting factor as to the depth we choose to go.

I agree that the Holy Spirit can reveal things that the prophets have not revealed. I believe that we can have the visions of the Brother of Jared, Moses, et all. However, there were things that even they did not reveal to the people of their times. Now we are having a discussion about a particular topic where not much has been revealed and we have people introducing personal revelation into the debate.

Is this appropriate? Should it be appropriate? I this the appropriate forum for this kind of discussion (and I don't mean the 'website forum')?

Personally, I NEVER talk about things that have been revealed to me, only as they apply to my family and those I have stewardship over. Instead of addressing the doctrinal aspect shouldn't we first address what information is allowed into the debate to begin with?

So my question is this: "Is the LDSFreedomForum.com a place where personal revelation outside the scope of revealed truth is admissible to debate a point on a topic?"

A secondary question would be: "Is it appropriate for one person who has had a sacred revelation of information outside of the scope of revealed truth to ask another person outside of their stewardship to pray about the truthfulness of said revelation for themselves."

Personal revelation & truth gained from the Spirit is appropriate to share with anyone IF the Spirit inspires us to, which he usually will if people are receptive to it. On a forum like this some will be & some won't be receptive to it. The Spirit will tell us when to speak up & when to stay quiet because not enough will believe.

When discussing doctrine, no righteous person can say that they learned everything they believe from just the Prophets, the Spirit taught them much of it, in ways they may not even realize. If you required everyone to add footnotes of scriptures & prophet's quotes at the bottom of every post & opinion, then discussing on a forum like this would become too difficult & time consuming for most, if they had to reference every post.

That is why we are to have the Spirit, so we don't have to go running to the scriptures & the Prophets to prove every little idea we hear. The Spirit does the proving. We should not be afraid of anyone's opinions, unless we don't have the Spirit to discern truth from error & right from wrong & devils from saints.

[Jason]

Personal revelation & truth gained from the Spirit is appropriate to share with anyone IF the Spirit inspires us to, which he usually will if people are receptive to it. On a forum like this some will be & some won't be receptive to it. The Spirit will tell us when to speak up & when to stay quiet because not enough will believe.

When discussing doctrine, no righteous person can say that they learned everything they believe from just the Prophets, the Spirit taught them much of it, in ways they may not even realize. If you required everyone to add footnotes of scriptures & prophet's quotes at the bottom of every post & opinion, then discussing on a forum like this would become too difficult & time consuming for most, if they had to reference every post.

That is why we are to have the Spirit, so we don't have to go running to the scriptures & the Prophets to prove every little idea we hear. The Spirit does the proving. We should not be afraid of anyone's opinions, unless we don't have the Spirit to discern truth from error & right from wrong & devils from saints.

....not to mention that you must receive the witness by the Spirit that the Prophet is indeed the Prophet......and when he is speaking as a Prophet.....along with teachings of Apostles, 70's, Stake leaders, Bishopric, members, neighbors, family, friends, etc.

[Amore Vero]

....not to mention that you must receive the witness by the Spirit that the Prophet is indeed the Prophet......and when he is speaking as a Prophet.....along with teachings of Apostles, 70's, Stake leaders, Bishopric, members, neighbors, family, friends, etc.

True, so true.

[shadow]

Personal revelation & truth gained from the Spirit is appropriate to share with anyone IF the Spirit inspires us to, which he usually will if people are receptive to it.

Shouldn't you be referring to the HG as "it" and not "he"? Intelligence is neither male nor female. Of course, that's if you believe the doctrine according to AP.

False doctrine is false doctrine. If a person "feels good" about it then they're probably listening to the great imitator.

[Amore Vero]

Personal revelation & truth gained from the Spirit is appropriate to share with anyone IF the Spirit inspires us to, which he usually will if people are receptive to it.

Shouldn't you be referring to the HG as "it" and not "he"? Intelligence is neither male nor female. Of course, that's if you believe the doctrine according to AP.

False doctrine is false doctrine. If a person "feels good" about it then they're probably listening to the great imitator.

I personally still lean to the belief that the Holy Ghost is a Spirit son of our Heavenly Father, who will be the last one to gain a body.

But I have found much that Angel Palmoni has said very interesting & I welcome his continued posts.

I agree that false doctine can 'feel very good & right' & truth can feel 'very wrong & foolish' to those without the Holy Spirit as their guide. It is so very easy to be deceived by false doctrine & the philosophies of men, most everyone falls for them in the Church today.

It is absolutely vital we really possess the right Spirit, for everyone thinks they do, whether they do or not. The wrong spirit can feel so right & say such nice & pleasant things to us & tell us that which we want to hear. That's why we are so easily decieved by it.

I cannot even count the many people who have told me they were inspired by the Spirit to do very evil things, but they see it as righteous things, totally deceived & still going to Church & the temple & most everyone thinking they are wonderful righteous people.

[shadow]

But I have found much that Angel Palmoni has said very interesting & I welcome his continued posts.

Ditto.

[oneClimbs]

Personal revelation & truth gained from the Spirit is appropriate to share with anyone IF the Spirit inspires us to, which he usually will if people are receptive to it. On a forum like this some will be & some won't be receptive to it. The Spirit will tell us when to speak up & when to stay quiet because not enough will believe.

When discussing doctrine, no righteous person can say that they learned everything they believe from just the Prophets, the Spirit taught them much of it, in ways they may not even realize. If you required everyone to add footnotes of scriptures & prophet's quotes at the bottom of every post & opinion, then discussing on a forum like this would become too difficult & time consuming for most, if they had to reference every post.

That is why we are to have the Spirit, so we don't have to go running to the scriptures & the Prophets to prove every little idea we hear. The Spirit does the proving. We should not be afraid of anyone's opinions, unless we don't have the Spirit to discern truth from error & right from wrong & devils from saints.

....not to mention that you must receive the witness by the Spirit that the Prophet is indeed the Prophet......and when he is speaking as a Prophet.....along with teachings of Apostles, 70's, Stake leaders, Bishopric, members, neighbors, family, friends, etc.

Yes but you are referring to those in a position of stewardship which is a different topic

[oneClimbs]

Personal revelation & truth gained from the Spirit is appropriate to share with anyone IF the Spirit inspires us to, which he usually will if people are receptive to it. On a forum like this some will be & some won't be receptive to it. The Spirit will tell us when to speak up & when to stay quiet because not enough will believe.

When discussing doctrine, no righteous person can say that they learned everything they believe from just the Prophets, the Spirit taught them much of it, in ways they may not even realize. If you required everyone to add footnotes of scriptures & prophet's quotes at the bottom of every post & opinion, then discussing on a forum like this would become too difficult & time consuming for most, if they had to reference every post.

That is why we are to have the Spirit, so we don't have to go running to the scriptures & the Prophets to prove every little idea we hear. The Spirit does the proving. We should not be afraid of anyone's opinions, unless we don't have the Spirit to discern truth from error & right from wrong & devils from saints.

So if I take this as answer to my question, you then believe that personal revelation outside the scope of revealed truth is admissible to debate doctrine on with others not under your stewardship?

[Amore Vero]

Personal revelation & truth gained from the Spirit is appropriate to share with anyone IF the Spirit inspires us to, which he usually will if people are receptive to it. On a forum like this some will be & some won't be receptive to it. The Spirit will tell us when to speak up & when to stay quiet because not enough will believe.

When discussing doctrine, no righteous person can say that they learned everything they believe from just the Prophets, the Spirit taught them much of it, in ways they may not even realize. If you required everyone to add footnotes of scriptures & prophet's quotes at the bottom of every post & opinion, then discussing on a forum like this would become too difficult & time consuming for most, if they had to reference every post.

That is why we are to have the Spirit, so we don't have to go running to the scriptures & the Prophets to prove every little idea we hear. The Spirit does the proving. We should not be afraid of anyone's opinions, unless we don't have the Spirit to discern truth from error & right from wrong & devils from saints.

So if I take this as answer to my question, you then believe that personal revelation outside the scope of revealed truth is admissible to debate doctrine on with others not under your stewardship?

Debate? no. Discuss, yes. We can discuss mysteries that have been revealed to us IF the Spirit directs us to. We are not limited in sharing our testimonies of truth ONLY with those we have stewardship over.

But one huge problem though, is that one person can learn 'rare truth' by a deeper study of the Prophet's teachings on that subject & another person who hasn't studied it will think such things haven't been revealed yet, though they have.

So who is qualified to judge every conversation? Who knows every single thing that has ever been revealed by Prophets so far? No one. So we are left to answer for our own conversations, no one is qualified to judge them, for no one can say they know everything.

[oneClimbs]

Debate? no. Discuss, yes. We can discuss mysteries that have been revealed to us IF the Spirit directs us to. We are not limited in sharing our testimonies of truth ONLY with those we have stewardship over.

Ok, let's not play semantics here. I definitely agree that the Spirit can direct us to do anything, including sever another person's head So if the Spirit has directed you to publish your own private revelations on this forum then, fine, we're clear.

But one huge problem though, is that one person can learn 'rare truth' by a deeper study of the Prophet's teachings on that subject & another person who hasn't studied it will think such things haven't been revealed yet, though they have.

Agreed, but again, that isn't the point. You seemed to indicate that something relating to your opinion has been revealed. Can you provide a source?

So who is qualified to judge every conversation? Who knows every single thing that has ever been revealed by Prophets so far? No one. So we are left to answer for our own conversations, no one is qualified to judge them, for no one can say they know everything.

I believe it is dangerous to bring private revelation of things that haven't been revealed into a public discussion, that's all I'm saying. If you revealed it to a private friend, that is one thing, but this "doctrine" is being shared on the world wide web indicating that the Spirit must have told you that this information was meant for the world since that is the audience you are addressing.

That is where I see the fault in this discussion, but that is just my opinion. I disagree that private revelation should be shared and used in a discussion such as this in this format, that's all. If you disagree, I respect you position and I will not try to involve myself in these types of discussions on this format in the future.

[Amore Vero]

I disagree that private revelation should be shared and used in a discussion such as this in this format, that's all.

I believe that if that were true, than we would have to stick with discussing only really trivial things like what we had for lunch & not get into any meaningful conversations that are based upon learning from others.

For probably all of our opinions whereever we got them from through the years, from Parents to Prophets, are intertwined with & interpreted by personal revelation from either the Adversary or the Holy Spirit. I do not believe you can have a gospel discussion or any discussion about meaningful matters, without it being influenced by your own personal revelation, right or wrong.

We could just post quotes from Prophets all day here & that would be great, but as soon as we give our opinion as to what we 'think' they said & try to explain our view of things, than our own personal revelation, right or wrong, comes into play every time.

Just saying. Personal revelation is far more pervasive in our conversations than we tend to think. Our every opinion & thought is influenced by it.

[oneClimbs]

As stated on Fairlds.org,

Before he was president of the Church, Joseph Fielding Smith wrote:

AVOID SPECULATING ON DESTINY OF THE SPIRIT. The Holy Ghost is not a personage with a body of flesh and bones, and in this respect differs from the Father and the Son. The Holy Ghost is not a woman, as some have declared, and therefore is not the mother of Jesus Christ.

It is a waste of time to speculate in relation to his jurisdiction. We know what has been revealed and that the Holy Ghost, sometimes spoken of as the Holy Spirit, and Comforter, is the third member of the Godhead, and that he, being in perfect harmony with the Father and the Son, reveals to man by the spirit of revelation and prophecy the truths of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Our great duty is so to live that we may be led constantly in light and truth by this Comforter so that we may not be deceived by the many false spirits that are in the world.

I have never troubled myself about the Holy Ghost whether he will sometime have a body or not because it is not in any way essential to my salvation. He is a member of the Godhead, with great power and authority, with a most wonderful mission which must be performed by a spirit. This has satisfied me without delving into mysteries that would be of no particular benefit.

http://en.fairmormon.org/Holy_Ghost/Ide ... ote_smith1

Also:

Having a body is necessary for a fullness of joy (D&C 93:33). It will be necessary for the Holy Spirit to receive a body at some point, but the timeframe in which He does so is not particularly important. (To travel overseas to another country, one needs both a passport and an airplane ticket. It doesn't matter in which order one gets the passport or the ticket, but one must eventually have both in order to reach one's destination.)

If correct sequence is an imperative, critics must explain how Christ's atonement could be efficacious to those who were born, lived, and died prior to His crucifixion. The fact that it was effective should blunt any feigned requirement for sequence concerning the Holy Ghost's receipt of a physical body, a matter about which the Church has no official doctrine.

http://en.fairmormon.org/Holy_Ghost/Div ... out_a_body

Elder Robert D. Hales said:

The Holy Ghost, the third member of the Godhead, is a personage of spirit.

http://lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideN ... 82620aRCRD

Just a little info I found, but as we are told, the church has given no position on this and I don't believe they will until there is a reason for us to know.

Thanks Jules, a prophet has counseled us to avoid speculating on the destiny of the Spirit. I knew there was a reason something didn't feel right about this discussion.

[oneClimbs]

I disagree that private revelation should be shared and used in a discussion such as this in this format, that's all.

I believe that if that were true, than we would have to stick with discussing only really trivial things like what we had for lunch & not get into any meaningful conversations that are based upon learning from others.

For probably all of our opinions whereever we got them from through the years, from Parents to Prophets, are intertwined with & interpreted by personal revelation from either the Adversary or the Holy Spirit. I do not believe you can have a gospel discussion or any discussion about meaningful matters, without it being influenced by your own personal revelation, right or wrong.

We could just post quotes from Prophets all day here & that would be great, but as soon as we give our opinion as to what we 'think' they said & try to explain our view of things, than our own personal revelation, right or wrong, comes into play every time.

Just saying. Personal revelation is far more pervasive in our conversations than we tend to think. Our every opinion & thought is influenced by it.

We agree more than you might think. I don't disagree that our opinions and thought are INFLUENCED by personal revelation, but that is not what we were talking about. We are talking about proclaiming a personal revelation as fact and teaching it as such to others, asking them to seek confirmation of your words. On top of that, is the fact that these personal revelations are being shared on the world wide webernetts as gospel truth for all the world to look upon. This is not a private forum. Please consider the audience. It is comparable to shouting personal revelation from the street corner.

Here's an idea: Let's say you have a personal revelation about something. Your perspective on a matter is now heavily influenced by said revelation. Why not simply share the information that led you to this revelatory experience and allow others to receive the revelation on their own, in their own time? Show the path and let others find out what is at the end for themselves. Those who have eyes to see will see, or not. I think this keeps everyone safe in a conversation from false doctrine.

In a testimony meeting, I have some experiences that I could rattle off that would surely be impressive to say the least. However, I don't, I just testify of the simple truth my witness is based on and let the Spirit do his work. No need to get into the details. When you speak with the Spirit, you can say much more than sounds coming from your mouth.

[Original_Intent]

Well my issue with this particular conversation is this: Certainly I agree that discussing the words of scripture and prophets and discussing what they actually meant is 100% fine and a growth opportunity for everyone involved - but that is not what was happening here. This was a case of someone putting up their personal opinion on something with no scriptural or prophetic support. When reasons were pointed out as to why the idea MIGHT NOT be correct, the response was that to disagree with the theory was to challenge the unique and divine role of Jesus Christ. When prophetic or scriptural backing was requested, we were told that we would just have to take the opinion on faith, and that we should seek confirmation from the HG. In fact as far as I can see, no reference is given, scriptural or otherwise, that led the OP to this theory. For me at least, this is what raised warning flags.

[AngelPalmoni]

I sincerely apologize... Really any of these drawings are not my work and I can see that this stuff isn't for everyone. As for scripture references I have 100s if not thousands in the drawings themselves if anyone were to bother to take a look. I am glad that you have written the idea off because it isn't a popular understanding to have for sure. I will post the drawings with the Most Scripture References you have ever seen (well not really)..

Download
http://www.ldspalmoni.com/Angel_Palmoni ... ce_.html#6
http://www.ldspalmoni.com/Angel_Palmoni ... ce_.html#5
http://www.ldspalmoni.com/Angel_Palmoni ... ce_.html#7
http://www.ldspalmoni.com/Angel_Palmoni ... ull.html#0
http://www.ldspalmoni.com/Angel_Palmoni ... ull.html#2

I'm sorry that I don't have the complete knowledge or understanding to go through it from the scriptures... I only understand it in theory. This is why it appears I am just saying this stuff is true.

Please take a moment to just look and notice there are scriptures to support my hypothesis