The end of men.

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Fiannan
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The end of men.

Post by Fiannan »

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/arc ... -men/8135/
What if the modern, postindustrial economy is simply more congenial to women than to men? For a long time, evolutionary psychologists have claimed that we are all imprinted with adaptive imperatives from a distant past: men are faster and stronger and hardwired to fight for scarce resources, and that shows up now as a drive to win on Wall Street; women are programmed to find good providers and to care for their offspring, and that is manifested in more- nurturing and more-flexible behavior, ordaining them to domesticity. This kind of thinking frames our sense of the natural order. But what if men and women were fulfilling not biological imperatives but social roles, based on what was more efficient throughout a long era of human history? What if that era has now come to an end? More to the point, what if the economics of the new era are better suited to women?
The Bible says that in eventually there will be 7 women desiring 1 man. I believe the Muslim Haddith puts that ratio far higher. I always thought this would be due to war -- but what if it points to an era where women selectively choose to have girls, rather than boys? After all, in traditional economies men are needed for labor and military, but women are necessary for reproduction (the real reason women should not be in the military). However, as the economy shifts, and , male jobs are outsourced or done away with all together, would that not mean that males become excess baggage in society?

The other day I was talking with a woman preparing for a medical career. She actually has said that she believes earth would be better off if 90% of males were sterilized and only the best 10% were dept for reproduction. Yes, she is a staunch feminist. However, she said she wants a baby someday and said she would go for making a designer baby -- choosing a male merely for reproduction who had the traits she was looking for. Of course I changed the subject when she suddenly commented that she felt I was a "winner" genetically and that she really respected my views on life and such.

Traditionally, people would probably have found this woman's ideas wierd, yet many many women are doing exactly what she wants to do -- shopping for a man not for marriage, but for making an ideal baby. Single career women and lesbians are now using this option (usually through sperm banks) to get the babies they want. So except for the sentimentality fo male/female bonding, the ideal of an equal ratio of men to women may become a thing of the past. After all, if women are better able to function in the economy, can have babies on their own, and are less prone to violence, what need does society have of males?

Of course, polygamy would be the ideal social order in this future society. Maybe this is going to evolve into the norm thanks to economics as well as advances in our understanding of genetics.

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M249Gunner
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Re: The end of men.

Post by M249Gunner »

When society collapses and the businesses that these women own or are employed by fail, they may have a change of opinion.

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Original_Intent
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Re: The end of men.

Post by Original_Intent »

Feminazi propaganda B.S.

Shimdidly
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Re: The end of men.

Post by Shimdidly »

What ever happened to real men? Where are the Chuck Norrises, Isaiah Mustafas, and Paul Bunyans of our time? I say our culture has been ninyfied.

p51-mustang
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Re: The end of men.

Post by p51-mustang »

2nd nephi 13 and 14 make it pretty clear that the 7 to 1 thing will be because of wars. All the men in Zion (America) will fend off an invasion and most will be killed. Only women and a few men are left. It also could be truue that something like this could be promoted now in soceity but i dont think it fulfill prophecy or be ordained of God (as some sort of feminist thing anyway). Children need fathers so the idea that men are not needed is obsurd. Men can do all sorts of things that women cant really handle so the whole notion is silly

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M249Gunner
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My wife needs me :-) .

Raindrop
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Re: The end of men.

Post by Raindrop »

Seven women laying hold to one man: All Christian churches will claim to be the Church of Jesus Christ. Brides, Bridegroom.

It's not all about polygamy, people.

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Rensai
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Re: The end of men.

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Original_Intent wrote:Feminazi propaganda B.S.
Couldn't agree more. In sociology class several years ago I wrote a paper on single parents (mostly mothers) vs. a regular two parent home. You would be shocked what the statistics show. God outlined the family the way it is for a reason. Single parent homes are incredibly more prone to having serious problems with the children. The feminist PC world we live in today wants to cover it up, but the stats are there. Here are a few.
*Among long-term prison inmates, 70 percent grew up without fathers, as did 60 percent of rapists and 75 percent of adolescents charged with murder.

* Fatherless children are three times more likely to fail school, require psychiatric treatment and commit suicide as adolescents.

*They are also up to 40 times more likely to experience child abuse compared with children growing up in two-parent families.
...
Source: Wade Horn and Andrew Bush, "Fathers, Marriage, and Welfare Reform,"
Hudson Institute Executive Briefing, 1997, Hudson Institute, Herman Kahn Center, 5395 Emerson Way, Indianapolis, IN 46226, (317) 545-1000.
Quoted and condensed from National Center for Policy Analysis
Policy Digest, Monday, July 28, 1997 -- "Making Ideas Change the World" -- [email protected]
Emotional and Behavioral Problems - 80% of adolescents in psychiatric hospitals come from broken homes. Source: "Family Maffers: The Plight of America's Children.' The Christian Century, July1993:14-21.

Statistical analysis of the behavior and intelligence of children living in fatherless households revealed "significant detrimental effects." Growing up in a fatherless household remained a statistical predictor of behavior problems even after adjusting for differences in family income. Source: "Economic Deprivation and Early Childhood Development" Child Development 65, 1994: 296-318.

Children from fatherless families have less of an ability to delay sexual gratification and have poorer impulse and anger control. These children also have a weaker sense of conscience and sense of right and wrong. Source: "Family Interaction. " Psychopathological Disorders of Childhood. 1979: 247-302.

kids need their dads - In a study on 194 white, urban boys, researchers found that being in a step family or living with a single mother at the age of 10 more than doubled the odds that a boy would eventually be arrested, compared to children who lived with both biological parents. Source: "Family Experience in Preadolescence in the Development of Male Delinquency. " Journal of Marriage and the Family 58, May 1996:491-501.

A 1988 study found that the proportion of single parent households in a community predicts its rates of violent crime and burglary, but the area's poverty level does not.
Source: "Social Structure and Criminal Victimization. " Journal of Research in Crime and Delinquency 25, February 1988: 27-52.

In a re-analysis of data from a study of 500 delinquent and 500 non-delinquent youths originally conducted in the 1950's, it was found that the low supervision of adolescents frequently found in father-absent homes was more the cause of delinquency than poverty. Source: "Urban Poverty and the Family Context of Delinquency., A New Look at Structure and Process in a Classk Study. " Child Development 65, 1994: 523-540.
Here is the chilling truth about our children who come from fatherless homes in Tennessee

63% of youth suicides
70% of juveniles in State Institutions
71% of teen pregnancies
71% of High School dropouts
75% of children in chemical abuse centers
85% of youth sitting in prisons
85% of children with behavioral problems
90% of homeless and runaway children


1994 - 2006 DAD of Tennessee Inc. All Rights Reserved

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ChelC
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Re: The end of men.

Post by ChelC »

Shimdidly wrote:What ever happened to real men? Where are the Chuck Norrises, Isaiah Mustafas, and Paul Bunyans of our time? I say our culture has been ninyfied.
I'm married to a real man. :) I consider myself VERY lucky. They are becoming rare.

Fiannan
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Re: The end of men.

Post by Fiannan »

Yers, for the most part I agree Rensai, the two parent model is superior to raising a child on your own. However, according to a study that I dealt with earlier, children from lesbian couples do better than those from heterosexual couples or single mothers. The important factor that the media ignored though, while tryting to make it sound as if lesbian couples had some sort of advantage, is that the advantage might very well be that they get donor sperm for pregnancy - and only men with high quality genes are are usually allowed to donate.

So maybe in a way it is the polygamist model that is superior. Brigham Young and other leaders stressed that polygamy would lead to a stronger people. One would expect that men who possessed quality traits (morality, health and intelligence) would take more wives and pass on their genes. Also, the idea of multiple mothers would lead to more stability in the household and less stress -- thus raising academic and social levels of the offspring. So in a sense, the Lord's way (the Old Testament prophet way) is probably the best for many reasons, but coming in at #2 would be stable heterosexual families. Of course, I am making this call since my preference is for the society to promote heterosexual unions.

Amore Vero
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Re: The end of men.

Post by Amore Vero »

Fiannan wrote: Of course, polygamy would be the ideal social order in this future society.
I do not believe polygamy is the ideal social order, Monogamy is. Where every wife has her own one husband & every husband his own one wife. Brigham Young said they would not have lived polygamy if all men had been righteous back then. But that they had to take care of the women who couldn't find decent men. And all men will be righteous in the Millenium, so little polygamy will probably be lived then.

After the destruction & cleansing of the world, it will only take a few years to build men back up to equal numbers with women, plus once Christ returns, he will bring with him countless numbers of men who have died without marrying who will need to find a wife.

I have always believed that the '7 women who take hold of 1 man' are not righteous women. I don't know any righteous woman who would do such, just to have a baby & be married. But unrighteous desperate women would definately do that & currently do almost do such now even. That scripture describes unrighteous desperate women perfectly. Righteous women are never that desperate.

Raindrop
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Re: The end of men.

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We will eat our own bread and wear our own apparel, only let us be called by thy name to take away our reproach.

There is no financial or temporal support going on here. There is no discussion of children here. Only the apparent reproach of those not called by the name of the one man.

It's amazing how far people can climb up a ladder before they realize it's leaning against the wrong building.

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Carlos
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Re: The end of men.

Post by Carlos »

Raindrop wrote:Seven women laying hold to one man: All Christian churches will claim to be the Church of Jesus Christ. Brides, Bridegroom.

It's not all about polygamy, people.
Wow, Raindrop! I thought I was the only one who made this connection. This means that you are willing to recognize that the Lord uses personification as a literary tool to describe the church or other groups of people. Have you found any other instances of this type of symbolism? Did you come up with this on your own or is it written somewhere?

Raindrop
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Re: The end of men.

Post by Raindrop »

I think the symbolism is pretty basic if you're not all hung up on polygamy. More non-LDS might actually make this connection than LDS simply for this reason. From a random non-LDS site I just googled in the last couple seconds:




PROPHECY - Isaiah 4:1

"And in that day seven women shall take hold of one man, saying, "We will eat our own bread and wear our own apparel Only let us be called by thy name To take away our reproach."

Explanation:
The day (future to Isaiah's prophecy c. 740 B.C.) will come when all the women (church, bride to be of Christ) will take hold (seize, gain possession, win, captivate charm, conduct, adopt, interpret, to operate) of one man (Jesus Christ) saying, "We will eat our own bread (own Manna, own words of life, own doctrine) and wear our own apparel (own garments of salvation or robe of righteousness); only let us be called by thy name (Jesus, Christian) to take away our reproach (shame, scorn, disgrace).

The prophesy foretells the time when all the churches will call themselves Christians in name only because they will preach their own doctrines and explain their own interpretation of righteousness ignoring the commandments of God. They believe that calling themselves Christians will take away their shame.

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Rensai
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Re: The end of men.

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Fiannan wrote:Yers, for the most part I agree Rensai, the two parent model is superior to raising a child on your own. However, according to a study that I dealt with earlier, children from lesbian couples do better than those from heterosexual couples or single mothers. The important factor that the media ignored though, while tryting to make it sound as if lesbian couples had some sort of advantage, is that the advantage might very well be that they get donor sperm for pregnancy - and only men with high quality genes are are usually allowed to donate.

So maybe in a way it is the polygamist model that is superior. Brigham Young and other leaders stressed that polygamy would lead to a stronger people. One would expect that men who possessed quality traits (morality, health and intelligence) would take more wives and pass on their genes. Also, the idea of multiple mothers would lead to more stability in the household and less stress -- thus raising academic and social levels of the offspring. So in a sense, the Lord's way (the Old Testament prophet way) is probably the best for many reasons, but coming in at #2 would be stable heterosexual families. Of course, I am making this call since my preference is for the society to promote heterosexual unions.
Yes and No. :lol: I don't believe for a second in the studies that show lesbians do better. I have seen many that counter that. I think that is just propaganda for Satan's plan. God outlined the family in the best way, period.

Where I have to agree somewhat is that sure, genetics play a role in how a person performs in this life, but in the end, I think God will take all that into account and there are certainly other, greater factors. If you've ever seen the movie Gattaca, it illustrates this perfectly. History is full of examples of people with inferior genetics and handicaps overcoming them to do great things.

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Rensai
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Re: The end of men.

Post by Rensai »

Raindrop wrote:I think the symbolism is pretty basic if you're not all hung up on polygamy. More non-LDS might actually make this connection than LDS simply for this reason. From a random non-LDS site I just googled in the last couple seconds:




PROPHECY - Isaiah 4:1

"And in that day seven women shall take hold of one man, saying, "We will eat our own bread and wear our own apparel Only let us be called by thy name To take away our reproach."

Explanation:
The day (future to Isaiah's prophecy c. 740 B.C.) will come when all the women (church, bride to be of Christ) will take hold (seize, gain possession, win, captivate charm, conduct, adopt, interpret, to operate) of one man (Jesus Christ) saying, "We will eat our own bread (own Manna, own words of life, own doctrine) and wear our own apparel (own garments of salvation or robe of righteousness); only let us be called by thy name (Jesus, Christian) to take away our reproach (shame, scorn, disgrace).

The prophesy foretells the time when all the churches will call themselves Christians in name only because they will preach their own doctrines and explain their own interpretation of righteousness ignoring the commandments of God. They believe that calling themselves Christians will take away their shame.
Great post. I hadn't thought of it this way before. This makes a lot of sense though, far more than the polygamy angle does actually.

Fiannan
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Re: The end of men.

Post by Fiannan »

Not sure Rensai, studies on adopted twins tend to reveal that while environment can be important in pointing someone in one direction or another, genetics does seem to be involved with intellect as well as come behavioral patterns. And adopted people who meet their regular siblings as adults seem to point to similarities that can only be attributed to genetics.

I am not sure citing Gattica is a good idea. Most people see it as a man with a genetic defect, a bad heart as he was not screened out after conception, making his dream of space travel, maybe one might consider how the story would end once he made it into space. If he had a heart attack, and died, what would happen to his mission as well as those who might depend on him to live? In a sense, he was a selfish manipulator who cared not for the lives of those who might have to serve with him. Yet audiences are left with a feel-good ending.

If lesbian couples get their pregnancies from men who have been screened for havng good health and desirable attributes in intelligence, then it goes to reason their kids will probably score well in school-related tasks. Also, good-looking people and smart people usually are better at social skills, so again, I am not sure about the women, but I doubt an ugly man is going to be popular at the sperm bank. Some actually screen for looks.

In a way our church has a bit of eugenics going on. Normally, highly intellgent and highly spiritual men wind up going on missions, marrying women with the same background, and they tend to have larger families than less intelligent families who, often, wind up with higher inactivity. This might explain why bishops and stake presidents have larger families than the average LDS member. I will bet the average LDS person in leadership positions has fewer genetic problems and a high IQ. If polygamy existed in the church today you would have the same genetic selection taking place as you have in the lesbian-family community.

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NoGreaterLove
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Re: The end of men.

Post by NoGreaterLove »

Seven women laying hold to one man: All Christian churches will claim to be the Church of Jesus Christ. Brides, Bridegroom.

It's not all about polygamy, people.
Very good observation Raindrop. I never thought of this.

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Carlos
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Re: The end of men.

Post by Carlos »

Raindrop wrote:I think the symbolism is pretty basic if you're not all hung up on polygamy. More non-LDS might actually make this connection than LDS simply for this reason. From a random non-LDS site I just googled in the last couple seconds:




PROPHECY - Isaiah 4:1

"And in that day seven women shall take hold of one man, saying, "We will eat our own bread and wear our own apparel Only let us be called by thy name To take away our reproach."

Explanation:
The day (future to Isaiah's prophecy c. 740 B.C.) will come when all the women (church, bride to be of Christ) will take hold (seize, gain possession, win, captivate charm, conduct, adopt, interpret, to operate) of one man (Jesus Christ) saying, "We will eat our own bread (own Manna, own words of life, own doctrine) and wear our own apparel (own garments of salvation or robe of righteousness); only let us be called by thy name (Jesus, Christian) to take away our reproach (shame, scorn, disgrace).

The prophesy foretells the time when all the churches will call themselves Christians in name only because they will preach their own doctrines and explain their own interpretation of righteousness ignoring the commandments of God. They believe that calling themselves Christians will take away their shame.
I am willing to take the symbolism one step further. You equate the women (daughters of Zion) as Christian churches, and I agree. You say the man is Christ. I think the 'man' could well be a personification of the LDS church, the church which has the priesthood.

Isaiah describes a time of desolation for the daughters of zion. Then in the following verses Zion is established and the daughters live joyously, after they have joined with one man. We know that the destiny of the LDS church is to build Zion after the tribulation. If Christains wish to live in Zion, they must recognize/accept the leadership of the priesthood...the LDS church. Thus, they will want to be called by 'his' name, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

I think the marriage with the bridegroom (Christ) will come later when he comes in glory, after the final destruction of Babylon. Then those who are ready in Zion (10 virgins parable), will be caught up to meet Him.

Just another angle to consider.

Fiannan
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Re: The end of men.

Post by Fiannan »

Interesting points Carlos, but no matter what the statements about seven women and one man, as well as the parble of the Virgins, employs polygamist metaphors. Whether we take Isaiah literally, which people tend to do when something is comfortable, or metaphorically, when something is uncomfortable, does not matter -- you have a major Jewish prophet using a polygamist metaphore. Then later you have the Son of God using a metaphore endorsing polygamy as well.

No matter what, young women today are finding it increasingly difficult to find men who are good, healthy and willing to settle down and start families. Today I was discussing this topic with an Iranian woman I know and I joked that polygamy and artificial insemination may be the answers to low birth rates as well as other problems associated with monogamy (early prophets said that monogamy contributed to sexual immorality). I shared this with her:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7OEaRn3uHsc

and she was so impressed she posted it on her Facebook page.

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