FOX: Ron Paul & Lew Rockwell: Fed Enabler of War

[give_me_liberty]

That's not the context of the way you have been using the term.....especially with regard to use of currencies and the basis of currency. The way you use the term "100% free market" in that context is pure anarchy.....or complete freedom from influence by nationalities, corporations, etc etc etc.....which can only occur in anarchy.

Please give an example where I used the term thus. I am not aware of it.

Nationalities and corporations or anyone else can have all the influence they want, as long as that influence is free from force and fraud. Force and fraud need to be punished promptly for truly free market to flourish. And this is the meaning that I put in term "free market."

LOL...go back and read your posts. Frankly its not worth my time. Anyways.....

You finally nailed it!

Nationalities and corporations or anyone else can have all the influence they want, as long as that influence is free from force and fraud.

...in other words - righteousness is the only way!

Force and fraud need to be punished promptly for truly free market to flourish. And this is the meaning that I put in term "free market."

And then within a framework of rule of law (i.e. righteous law....enforced of course...by force).

So you can rant and rave all day about gold or silver or copper or what ever flavor of commodity you wish to be "coined" by a righteous government for money.....but until you have a righteous people and an enforced just rule of law.....you're just barking at the moon!

So instead of ranting and raving about gold/silver currency....how about doing something valuable with your time and figuring out a way to gain the enforceable upper hand and coax the majority of the people to righteousness!

You are correct that righteousness is the only true solution. Nobody is claiming that gold or anything else can support a wicked people...no system can. My concern is whether or not a fiat money system can support a RIGHTEOUS people. I don't see how it can, but if you do, I would like to see how it would work. I do not see that problem with a system allowing the people to choose what currency to use and what it is worth.
As for using force in a free market system, it should be used only to protect the rights of the people. Those rights do not include being told what currency to use.

[Jason]

Nationalities and corporations or anyone else can have all the influence they want, as long as that influence is free from force and fraud.

...in other words - righteousness is the only way!

Force and fraud need to be punished promptly for truly free market to flourish. And this is the meaning that I put in term "free market."

And then within a framework of rule of law (i.e. righteous law....enforced of course...by force).

So you can rant and rave all day about gold or silver or copper or what ever flavor of commodity you wish to be "coined" by a righteous government for money.....but until you have a righteous people and an enforced just rule of law.....you're just barking at the moon!

So instead of ranting and raving about gold/silver currency....how about doing something valuable with your time and figuring out a way to gain the enforceable upper hand and coax the majority of the people to righteousness!

You are correct that righteousness is the only true solution. Nobody is claiming that gold or anything else can support a wicked people...no system can. My concern is whether or not a fiat money system can support a RIGHTEOUS people. I don't see how it can, but if you do, I would like to see how it would work. I do not see that problem with a system allowing the people to choose what currency to use and what it is worth.
As for using force in a free market system, it should be used only to protect the rights of the people. Those rights do not include being told what currency to use.

My understanding of money is that it is a means or tool established ("coined") by a government (however large or small) to facilitate trade (vs barter). As an effective tool it must have range of "stated" or face value that is set and doesn't fluctuate (i.e. - the less fluctuation the better). There are several factors that tend to get wrapped up in the term "fiat money" like compound interest, fractional reserve, creation by debt, creation by private banking.....that really are completely separate issues from unbacked "paper" money (in reality backed by the enforcement power of government and society). So let's examine just the basic function of a monetary system - essentially a tool to facilitate transactions. A system of weights and measures. For example -

Now these are the names of the different pieces of their gold, and of their silver, according to their value. And the names are given by the Nephites, for they did not reckon after the manner of the Jews who were at Jerusalem; neither did they measure after the manner of the Jews; but they altered their reckoning and their measure, according to the minds and the circumstances of the people, in every generation, until the reign of the judges, they having been established by king Mosiah.

Now the reckoning is thus—a senine of gold, a seon of gold, a shum of gold, and a limnah of gold. A senum of silver, an amnor of silver, an ezrom of silver, and an onti of silver. A senum of silver was equal to a senine of gold, and either for a measure of barley, and also for a measure of every kind of grain. Now the amount of a seon of gold was twice the value of a senine. And a shum of gold was twice the value of a seon. And a limnah of gold was the value of them all. And an amnor of silver was as great as two senums. And an ezrom of silver was as great as four senums. And an onti was as great as them all.

Now this is the value of the lesser numbers of their reckoning— A shiblon is half of a senum; therefore, a shiblon for half a measure of barley. And a shiblum is a half of a shiblon. And a leah is the half of a shiblum. Now this is their number, according to their reckoning. Now an antion of gold is equal to three shiblons.

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/alma/11/3,6-7,11-12,15#3

While quite a few use this section of scripture to justify gold/silver I think the more important thing to be gleaned is the system of weights and measures established by the government (King Mosiah and thereafter the judges) that didn't change for a substantial number of years.

Again notice the value established by the government (not the people which would be anarchy). In order to really prosper (trade and transact) people need a central authority (i.e. government) to establish the currency value (system of weights and measures) that all can agree on. This so called "free market" approach by letting the people choose is pure anarchy. Imagine if every city in the US had its own currency....and the resulting impact on trade.....

Until the gold/silver/sticks/paper/sea shells/etc is "coined" or given a face value by the government....it is just barter subject to the whims and needs of the people (rise and fall of commodities). The hedge that gold/silver/etc provides is the melt value should the government fail. Many point to the debasement of Roman money but I think just as much or more emphasis should be placed on the decay of the Roman government (loss of influence, power and control....descent into wickedness).

Contrary to popular conception, there is no evidence of a society or economy that relied primarily on barter.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_money

Such as we are today where we have no hedge but rely 100% on the enforcement power of our government with unbacked paper money - "fiat". And despite all the flaws from externalities like compound interest, money created by debt, fractional banking, private central bank manipulation, etc......the system functions quite well in terms of facilitating day to day transactions. The externalities create the fraud and confiscation or loss of wealth.

While some believe that in order for the system to be "honest" the hedge (or melt value) needs to exist in the case of a collapse of the government.....I on the other hand believe that if we controlled or eliminated the externalities and established a righteous government we could utilize unbacked paper or fiat money. Having said that there's nothing saying we can't utilize paper money backed 100% by gold/silver. But again the reality is even 100% backed money is dependent on the righteousness of government and the people (how do you know its 100% backed with a wicked government?).

The main point is once you have a righteous government and a righteous people many options become available because there is an environment of honesty and trust. Ultimately that's what makes or breaks any system. Hence my frustration with the focus on gold/silver when the real culprit is lack of righteousness which gold/silver cannot cure. Like focusing on the gun vs. the person pulling the trigger......

[Neil Rucker]

Couldn't agree more with LoveIsTruth on this subject. Bottom line, a monetary system should always be commoditity based, in the hands of We the People. The temptation to abuse the printing press and the consolidating of power amongst evil men will always exist. A fiat currency could only work if Jesus himself managed it. All others will be corrupted to its power. Real commoditity wealth was stolen from us Americans through the use of paper money. We were sold a lie that paper was money. The banks exchanged nothing more then a paper reciept for valuable commoditities. The Gold Confiscation Of April 5, 1933, Presidential Executive Order 6102. The Federal Reserve should be forced to give back all gold and silver stolen from the American public. It was a crime and should be treated as such. A fiat currency will always be in the hands of satan, its based upon lies.

"All the capital employed in paper speculation is barren and useless, producing, like that on a gaming table, no accession to itself, and is withdrawn from commerce and agriculture where it would have produced addition to the common mass... It nourishes in our citizens habits of vice and idleness instead of industry and morality... It has furnished effectual means of corrupting such a portion of the legislature as turns the balance between the honest voters whichever way it is directed." --Thomas Jefferson to George Washington, 1792. ME 8:344

"We are now taught to believe that legerdemain tricks upon paper can produce as solid wealth as hard labor in the earth. It is vain for common sense to urge that nothing can produce but nothing; that it is an idle dream to believe in a philosopher's stone which is to turn everything into gold, and to redeem man from the original sentence of his Maker, 'in the sweat of his brow shall he eat his bread.'" --Thomas Jefferson to Charles Yancey, 1816. ME 14:381

Yes it also takes hard labor to attain gold and silver out of the ground also, it just didn't magically appear in the hands early Americans.

[give_me_liberty]

My understanding of money is that it is a means or tool established ("coined") by a government (however large or small) to facilitate trade (vs barter).

Fine, but does the government have the right to FORCE us to use it? I have no problem with a government providing a currency, but if the people do not want to use it, they should not be forced to do so.

As an effective tool it must have range of "stated" or face value that is set and doesn't fluctuate (i.e. - the less fluctuation the better).

What happens when there are more (or less) dollars than their value in commodities? According to supply and demand, the value must fluctuate anyway.

There are several factors that tend to get wrapped up in the term "fiat money" like compound interest, fractional reserve, creation by debt, creation by private banking.....that really are completely separate issues from unbacked "paper" money (in reality backed by the enforcement power of government and society).

Compound interest is a problem, but technically people have the right to charge whatever kind of interest they want, so here righteousness is definitely the only solution. Fractional reserves are dishonest and should be illegal, but because of wickedness, it is not. The last two problems would be eliminated without fiat money, because in other system you cannot "create" money at all...at least not without labor.

So let's examine just the basic function of a monetary system - essentially a tool to facilitate transactions. A system of weights and measures. For example -


Quote:
Now these are the names of the different pieces of their gold, and of their silver, according to their value. And the names are given by the Nephites, for they did not reckon after the manner of the Jews who were at Jerusalem; neither did they measure after the manner of the Jews; but they altered their reckoning and their measure, according to the minds and the circumstances of the people, in every generation, until the reign of the judges, they having been established by king Mosiah.

Now the reckoning is thus—a senine of gold, a seon of gold, a shum of gold, and a limnah of gold. A senum of silver, an amnor of silver, an ezrom of silver, and an onti of silver. A senum of silver was equal to a senine of gold, and either for a measure of barley, and also for a measure of every kind of grain. Now the amount of a seon of gold was twice the value of a senine. And a shum of gold was twice the value of a seon. And a limnah of gold was the value of them all. And an amnor of silver was as great as two senums. And an ezrom of silver was as great as four senums. And an onti was as great as them all.

Now this is the value of the lesser numbers of their reckoning— A shiblon is half of a senum; therefore, a shiblon for half a measure of barley. And a shiblum is a half of a shiblon. And a leah is the half of a shiblum. Now this is their number, according to their reckoning. Now an antion of gold is equal to three shiblons.

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/alma/11/3,6-7,11-12,15#3

While quite a few use this section of scripture to justify gold/silver I think the more important thing to be gleaned is the system of weights and measures established by the government (King Mosiah and thereafter the judges) that didn't change for a substantial number of years.

Once again, I have no problem with the government establishing money if they do not force it to be used. Notice this line: "And the names are given by the Nephites, for they did not reckon after the manner of the Jews who were at Jerusalem; neither did they measure after the manner of the Jews; but they altered their reckoning and their measure, according to the minds and the circumstances of the people, in every generation, until the reign of the judges, they having been established by king Mosiah."
I am assuming that once the reign of the judges began, the system could still be changed by the voice of the people (either directly or by electing leaders who would do it, don't know which) if the need to do so arose, and that is if the system was actually FORCED on them in the first place. I admit I could easily be wrong here though. Also, weights and measures don't work when more fiat money is being printed constantly.

Again notice the value established by the government (not the people which would be anarchy). In order to really prosper (trade and transact) people need a central authority (i.e. government) to establish the currency value (system of weights and measures) that all can agree on. This so called "free market" approach by letting the people choose is pure anarchy.

Pure anarchy would be a lack of penalty for refusing to pay, lying about value, counterfeiting, etc. In other words, government should still be involved, but only as far as securing the rights of the people, and no further. Allowing people to do what they want as long as they don't interfere with the rights of others is freedom. Anything more restricts freedom. And again, weights and measures don't work too well with fiat money.

Imagine if every city in the US had its own currency....and the resulting impact on trade.....

This is why people would probably use gold/silver or maybe something like wheat...even if it looks different from city to city it still has the same value.

Until the gold/silver/sticks/paper/sea shells/etc is "coined" or given a face value by the government....it is just barter subject to the whims and needs of the people (rise and fall of commodities).

As long as the government doesn't force everyone to use it, great!

The hedge that gold/silver/etc provides is the melt value should the government fail.

That helps, along with the fact that it requires labor to produce, unlike fiat.

Many point to the debasement of Roman money but I think just as much or more emphasis should be placed on the decay of the Roman government (loss of influence, power and control....descent into wickedness).

Agreed here...without the descent into wickedness and/or the loss of influence and power, the debasement of Roman money never would have happened in the first place!

Quote:
Contrary to popular conception, there is no evidence of a society or economy that relied primarily on barter.

The people choosing their currency is not barter unless the people choose barter...and that should be their choice to make. People would learn fast and change the system.

Such as we are today where we have no hedge but rely 100% on the enforcement power of our government with unbacked paper money - "fiat". And despite all the flaws from externalities like compound interest, money created by debt, fractional banking, private central bank manipulation, etc......the system functions quite well in terms of facilitating day to day transactions.

For now...but we are headed toward hyperdeflation/hyperinflation/disaster. I think we agree on that.

The externalities create the fraud and confiscation or loss of wealth.

They create most of it, but fiat itself does cause some problems as well. Whenever money is printed with nothing backing it, value is created. That value has to come from somewhere...so who pays for it?

While some believe that in order for the system to be "honest" the hedge (or melt value) needs to exist in the case of a collapse of the government.....I on the other hand believe that if we controlled or eliminated the externalities and established a righteous government we could utilize unbacked paper or fiat money.

Take a look at Neil's post to see just how righteous we would need to be. I think he is right. At that point we would have no reason for fiat anyway. 8)

Having said that there's nothing saying we can't utilize paper money backed 100% by gold/silver. But again the reality is even 100% backed money is dependent on the righteousness of government and the people (how do you know its 100% backed with a wicked government?).

Absolutely agree!

The main point is once you have a righteous government and a righteous people many options become available because there is an environment of honesty and trust. Ultimately that's what makes or breaks any system. Hence my frustration with the focus on gold/silver when the real culprit is lack of righteousness which gold/silver cannot cure. Like focusing on the gun vs. the person pulling the trigger......

I can see your point in this regard, and I think you are right, but I also think that while wickedness is the root of the problem, fiat is a problem as well. We don't need to pick one to resolve first, we can try to fix them both simultaneously. I do agree that fiat money should not be the main focus and is not the main problem. It looks to me like all we disagree on is whether fiat could work under a righteous government and people or not. Anyway, great post with some good points, thank you!

Neil, great post, and really good quotes, thank you as well.

[Jason]

My understanding of money is that it is a means or tool established ("coined") by a government (however large or small) to facilitate trade (vs barter).

Fine, but does the government have the right to FORCE us to use it? I have no problem with a government providing a currency, but if the people do not want to use it, they should not be forced to do so.

Now you are coloring (no pun intended) the argument. Government force is completely separate issue.

Obviously in a free society with a righteous government founded on righteous principles and constrained by righteous laws....if you didn't want to use government currency....then by all means trade and barter.....or use your voting power to seek righteous change......or move to a new area governed by a different government.

The reality is in a righteous governmental system the currency would be the last of your worries......more like how to handle the speed of growth and prosperity.

If the government is wicked (and a majority of the people) then all bets are off....no matter if its gold/silver/copper/sticks/paper/fancy dung/etc...

Of course some....like Neil's post previous to yours....will assume that there are always wicked people and you can't truly have a "honest" currency system w/o the hedge factor.....despite the vast history of gold/silver not saving any government (people) from wickedness. On that one....agree to disagree. To each his own.

As an effective tool it must have range of "stated" or face value that is set and doesn't fluctuate (i.e. - the less fluctuation the better).

What happens when there are more (or less) dollars than their value in commodities? According to supply and demand, the value must fluctuate anyway.

Don't construe purchase value (supply/demand) with face value (system of measurement). For example $10 dollars will always be $10 dollars.....that's completely separate from what you can obtain with $10 dollars which will fluctuate with supply and demand. This is the "coinage" factor (face value or system of measurement) in "coining" money....no matter what material you use to "coin". King Mosiah used a system of this equal half of that....which equal half of something else...and actually tied it to food commodities (wheat).

Again the externalities create most of the problems in fluctuating value. Gold/silver, just for the record, also doesn't change any of that. For example the growth in gold/silver could be a 4 (potential currency growth) while population is growing at a 7 (potential labor growth). Then you'll have constant deflation - i.e. the older generations will always be more wealthy than the younger generations.....or the younger generations will be slaves to the older generations. You can substitute generations with corporations for a more dramatic picture. Now Walmart starts with a higher value (starting currency) and in a constant deflationary environment will get richer and richer (able to buy more and more labor with fewer and fewer dollars) creating the ability to be a worldwide monopoly in every industry over a relatively short period of time.

We witnessed quite a bit of that in the late 1800's with banker's use of the gold standard - hence the unsuccessful big political movement at the time to utilize silver based currency.

There are several factors that tend to get wrapped up in the term "fiat money" like compound interest, fractional reserve, creation by debt, creation by private banking.....that really are completely separate issues from unbacked "paper" money (in reality backed by the enforcement power of government and society).

Compound interest is a problem, but technically people have the right to charge whatever kind of interest they want, so here righteousness is definitely the only solution. Fractional reserves are dishonest and should be illegal, but because of wickedness, it is not. The last two problems would be eliminated without fiat money, because in other system you cannot "create" money at all...at least not without labor.

Let's not construe the labor to obtain a commodity with the labor involved in "coining" or creating money. Again we are dealing with separate issues. The value to obtain any commodity is roughly based on the labor/energy to obtain that commodity (taking speculation out of the picture) and the people's need/demand for that commodity.

"Coining" a commodity is simply stamping a piece of material (gold/silver/copper/tin/lead/wood/poop/etc.) with a monetary description (face value). That monetary description (face value) may or may not represent the value of the commodity being stamped. And since the value of the commodities changes over time.....you will never have a guaranteed match between the "coinage" or face value and the market value of the material used. Thus the face value is purely a representation of value no matter what material is used since the material value will fluctuate with market supply/demand.

Not to mention the changes over time due to labor/energy acquisition efficiencies due to the development of technologies to facilitate the process - i.e. grow more wheat with less labor/energy or to find more deposits of gold or even to create gold.

Not to mention the additional labor/energy required to "coin" the material.

You can see this over time in the fluctuating metal (melt) value of our current coins.

Another reality is the utilization of the hedge factor - i.e. melting the hard currency. It takes labor/energy to do that too!

The basis for "fiat" money is taking something of little value (like paper,plastic,wood,etc) and "coining" it.....while on the flip side hard money is taking something of greater value (gold,silver,etc) and "coining" it. The hard money provides a melt hedge against the collapse of government/currency system as well as a control factor as government must obtain the valuable material (at significant cost - i.e. taxes or people's labor) prior to "coining" the material.

The inherent cost of hard money is acquiring and tying up the valuable commodity (and associated labor) in currency thus putting a damper on economic growth and raising the acquisition cost of whatever material used....particularly expensive if the material is rare and difficult to come by. And in rare circumstances (like 2007) the melt value would exceed the face value thus inciting the people to destroy (melt) their money and hindering economic growth.

So let's examine just the basic function of a monetary system - essentially a tool to facilitate transactions. A system of weights and measures. For example -


Quote:
Now these are the names of the different pieces of their gold, and of their silver, according to their value. And the names are given by the Nephites, for they did not reckon after the manner of the Jews who were at Jerusalem; neither did they measure after the manner of the Jews; but they altered their reckoning and their measure, according to the minds and the circumstances of the people, in every generation, until the reign of the judges, they having been established by king Mosiah.

Now the reckoning is thus—a senine of gold, a seon of gold, a shum of gold, and a limnah of gold. A senum of silver, an amnor of silver, an ezrom of silver, and an onti of silver. A senum of silver was equal to a senine of gold, and either for a measure of barley, and also for a measure of every kind of grain. Now the amount of a seon of gold was twice the value of a senine. And a shum of gold was twice the value of a seon. And a limnah of gold was the value of them all. And an amnor of silver was as great as two senums. And an ezrom of silver was as great as four senums. And an onti was as great as them all.

Now this is the value of the lesser numbers of their reckoning— A shiblon is half of a senum; therefore, a shiblon for half a measure of barley. And a shiblum is a half of a shiblon. And a leah is the half of a shiblum. Now this is their number, according to their reckoning. Now an antion of gold is equal to three shiblons.

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/alma/11/3,6-7,11-12,15#3

While quite a few use this section of scripture to justify gold/silver I think the more important thing to be gleaned is the system of weights and measures established by the government (King Mosiah and thereafter the judges) that didn't change for a substantial number of years.

Once again, I have no problem with the government establishing money if they do not force it to be used. Notice this line: "And the names are given by the Nephites, for they did not reckon after the manner of the Jews who were at Jerusalem; neither did they measure after the manner of the Jews; but they altered their reckoning and their measure, according to the minds and the circumstances of the people, in every generation, until the reign of the judges, they having been established by king Mosiah."

Again you are coloring the issue with force....which I would term unrighteous force....if the minds and circumstances of the people change yet the government does not.

I am assuming that once the reign of the judges began, the system could still be changed by the voice of the people (either directly or by electing leaders who would do it, don't know which) if the need to do so arose, and that is if the system was actually FORCED on them in the first place. I admit I could easily be wrong here though.

Yes we don't know so we can only guess. My guess is that the people were prospering under an established system that all could rely on (reduction in risk) and thus more worried about other things (like gaining power over the people, defending liberty, etc.).

Also, weights and measures don't work when more fiat money is being printed constantly.

Depends on the ratio of money to labor & energy. Doesn't matter whether its fiat or hard money.....you can make/dilute (or destroy) tons of it and cause problems.....always goes back to who controls the money and whether they are righteous or wicked.

Again notice the value established by the government (not the people which would be anarchy). In order to really prosper (trade and transact) people need a central authority (i.e. government) to establish the currency value (system of weights and measures) that all can agree on. This so called "free market" approach by letting the people choose is pure anarchy.

Pure anarchy would be a lack of penalty for refusing to pay, lying about value, counterfeiting, etc. In other words, government should still be involved, but only as far as securing the rights of the people, and no further.
Amen!

Allowing people to do what they want as long as they don't interfere with the rights of others is freedom. Anything more restricts freedom. And again, weights and measures don't work too well with fiat money.
Agree to disagree. People successfully transact every day around the world with fiat money.

Imagine if every city in the US had its own currency....and the resulting impact on trade.....

This is why people would probably use gold/silver or maybe something like wheat...even if it looks different from city to city it still has the same value.
Agree to disagree. Commodity prices range all over the board with respect to flavor and location. Hence the published prices are always a range. That's everything from different grades of beef to different grades of gold (yellow, blue, green, 14k, 24k, etc.).

Porter Rockwell made a small fortune feeding miners! Value fluctuates in large proportions based on what you have an abundance of vs. what you are sorely lacking.

During the great depression the store keeper ate his own goods. The farmer burned his wheat in his furnace. The coal miner starved. All because the "money" disappeared.

Until the gold/silver/sticks/paper/sea shells/etc is "coined" or given a face value by the government....it is just barter subject to the whims and needs of the people (rise and fall of commodities).

As long as the government doesn't force everyone to use it, great!

Trade flourishes under any currency system vs. bartering.

The hedge that gold/silver/etc provides is the melt value should the government fail.

That helps, along with the fact that it requires labor to produce, unlike fiat.
Covered that one above...

Many point to the debasement of Roman money but I think just as much or more emphasis should be placed on the decay of the Roman government (loss of influence, power and control....descent into wickedness).

Agreed here...without the descent into wickedness and/or the loss of influence and power, the debasement of Roman money never would have happened in the first place!

Quote:
Contrary to popular conception, there is no evidence of a society or economy that relied primarily on barter.

The people choosing their currency is not barter unless the people choose barter...and that should be their choice to make. People would learn fast and change the system.
You can barter today if you so desire....despite a fiat money system. Happens all the time on KSL Classifieds, PYP - Pinching Your Pennies, Craigslist, etc.

Such as we are today where we have no hedge but rely 100% on the enforcement power of our government with unbacked paper money - "fiat". And despite all the flaws from externalities like compound interest, money created by debt, fractional banking, private central bank manipulation, etc......the system functions quite well in terms of facilitating day to day transactions.

For now...but we are headed toward hyperdeflation/hyperinflation/disaster. I think we agree on that.
The system will still function....just the relative value will change. Again the result of the externalities and not the result of using a "fiat" currency system. The NWO crowd will be there with a ready alternative....ironically it could even be gold/silver based since they hold most of the world's supply.

The externalities create the fraud and confiscation or loss of wealth.

They create most of it, but fiat itself does cause some problems as well. Whenever money is printed with nothing backing it, value is created. That value has to come from somewhere...so who pays for it?

Well in the case of our current "fiat" system where money is created by debt (future labor)....you pay for it in the future......and we actually get to be the ones who create it. You can personally do your part to stop creating more money by not borrowing. Ironically though we need more borrowing (money) now than at any time since the Great Depression to offset the deflationary collapse (due to constantly increasing interest costs of which no money was created to cover). Unfortunately we've hit the debt saturation point and that no longer is a possibility since we can't service the debt we currently have (not enough present labor to match the past borrowing plus interest...thus the devaluing of current labor).....although if we didn't have compound interest, a fractional reserve system, government (people's) interest due to private banking cartel, etc etc etc....we would be just fine!

While some believe that in order for the system to be "honest" the hedge (or melt value) needs to exist in the case of a collapse of the government.....I on the other hand believe that if we controlled or eliminated the externalities and established a righteous government we could utilize unbacked paper or fiat money.

Take a look at Neil's post to see just how righteous we would need to be. I think he is right. At that point we would have no reason for fiat anyway. 8)

So you are saying people don't have the capacity to be righteous? Or just not THAT righteous? Or that Zion won't require us to transact with each other? Or that the labor required to obtain and "coin" commodities (that will then be stored eternally in that form adding no future benefit) could not be utilized somewhere else for the benefit of society? Or that all those commodities floating around in people's pockets or stored in a box could not be utilized elsewhere? .....like maybe paving the streets for nice electrical grid? (i.e. - lower current and future energy costs)

What about a righteous government established by Jesus Himself? Zion? System of credits, fiat, etc created in accordance with labor capacity (population growth)....could not possibly work in such circumstances?

Having said that there's nothing saying we can't utilize paper money backed 100% by gold/silver. But again the reality is even 100% backed money is dependent on the righteousness of government and the people (how do you know its 100% backed with a wicked government?).

Absolutely agree!

The main point is once you have a righteous government and a righteous people many options become available because there is an environment of honesty and trust. Ultimately that's what makes or breaks any system. Hence my frustration with the focus on gold/silver when the real culprit is lack of righteousness which gold/silver cannot cure. Like focusing on the gun vs. the person pulling the trigger......

I can see your point in this regard, and I think you are right, but I also think that while wickedness is the root of the problem, fiat is a problem as well. We don't need to pick one to resolve first, we can try to fix them both simultaneously. I do agree that fiat money should not be the main focus and is not the main problem. It looks to me like all we disagree on is whether fiat could work under a righteous government and people or not. Anyway, great post with some good points, thank you!

Your welcome....and thank you for putting it in such a manner that we can debate the merits.....and thank you for pushing me to think it all through again and put it in writing!

Neil, great post, and really good quotes, thank you as well.

[give_me_liberty]

Thank you also for making me think this through Jason, you have a lot of good points, and I will still need to do a lot more thinking...

For now, agree to disagree sounds best, and we can also agree on wickedness being by far the main problem here.

[Jason]

Thank you also for making me think this through Jason, you have a lot of good points, and I will still need to do a lot more thinking...

For now, agree to disagree sounds best, and we can also agree on wickedness being by far the main problem here.

While you are noodling it....here are a couple more points that hit me on the drive home from work this evening.


Let's say you go with 100% gold backed currency and you try as closely as possible to match the amount of gold (current market value) to the face value of the currency.

Couple options - 1) "Coin" the gold directly at which point it goes out to the people and they maintain possession of the physical gold coins for the ultimate safety hedge; or 2) Keep all the gold in a heavily guarded box somewhere (Fort Knox) to 100% "back up" the paper or electronic currency.

The respective issues:

1) How do you transact electronic business with coins? Pack them around? Protect them on your person? Safe guard/track them in your business...especially when people aren't capable of being that righteous? For example safe guarding actual cash/coins is one of the most difficult and time consuming problems with business today....hence the video camera's above the checkout stands at Walmart (just one of multiple security features that all have economic cost and add no value to products/services). One of the reasons that drove the massive adoption of personal checks - demand on a deposit. If the government collapses....does the gold have the same value it did when it was coined? Buy the same amount of food? How good is the hedge? Is it worth the cost?

2) How do you guarantee the gold in the box is what they say it is? What stops them from printing more paper than gold? What's the cost to protect the gold from fraud, thieves, competing nations, politicians, etc.? Can it be 100% protected....especially when people aren't capable of being that righteous? Since its a hedge for government collapse....what happens when the government collapses? First come - first serve at the box? The guy with the biggest gun...biggest army? What happens when all they find is a pile of gold plated tungsten bars?

Now another aspect....

The government has to purchase the gold which requires taxes (people's labor) and then that gold either resides in pockets or a box never increasing or adding additional value for the labor that was put into it (no increase or profit). Is that economically wise? In other words, what is the economic cost of using gold or silver based currency? Especially when it is 100% backed or "coined" (minted) directly into money? Or how much of your labor are you willing to sacrifice just so you can have a "100% honest sound currency" (in reality just a hedge against government collapse) with no additional benefit? vs. infrastructure projects like building a highway that cuts your daily commute time in half thus adding value to a number of people daily over a significant time period thus adding value now and into the future?

Where does the government get the "money" via taxes (from the people) to buy the gold to create the "money"? Does the government borrow the miner's labors? Do we spend all of our efforts for a decade in mining so we have the gold (money) to facilitate trade for the following decade? Does the government intervention into the commodity market for gold upset the market value of gold? Or in other words does it cause a miss-allocation of resources (think housing boom and bust but in terms of gold) and what does that do to the ratio of market gold value to face value of the currency? Is it ever physically possibly to be "100% honest" (equal market value to face value) as claimed? Or is it just a hedge/gamble that may or may not work out?

Can the gold be obtained to keep up with population growth (labor)? Or will we suffer constant deflation thus stealing labor from the younger generations for the older generations? Is that honest money?

Or do we go through boom and bust cycles depending on mining operations and generational money demand (money/labor ratio)?

And to apply this to our current situation - If the NWO has at least 80% of the world's gold....wouldn't they own us? Are you going to buy the gold from them....and with what money? What do you think they would charge for it? Or instead are you going to shoot them and take their gold in order to set up the required 100% gold back monetary system? And with what army? Is that honest money?

[LoveIsTruth]

Couldn't agree more with LoveIsTruth on this subject. Bottom line, a monetary system should always be commoditity based, in the hands of We the People.

Thank you Neil for your post!

[Neil Rucker]

Gold and silver have been used for thousands of years so I don't see how all of a sudden its incapable of working. Yea we might have to change the way we purchase some items. Fiat is the new and untested monetary unit in the long view of history. In a hundred years the Fed through fiat has taken our dollar and decimated its value. Robbing every American of their savings over time. Now it can no longer lose much more value without destroying itself.

(The fiat unit should be in the hands of Congress and not private banks if we are to have one)

If you are going to use a fiat monetary unit then how does a Federal Government generate deficits? Money made out of nothing at the Federal Government level should not have any debt attached to it. The Federal Government could print its own money owing it back to no bank, people or foreign governments. The US wouldn't have to sell its debts or do any other ridiculous things with it. The only people that would suffer for too much printing would be us Americans through inflation, which we already suffer from. In reality under fiat there is no need for a Federal Tax even. Right now all our Federal tax dollars basically just service the interest on the debt. So again I ask why do Americans put up with Federal deficits and with the brainwashing that these deficits need to be payed down.

Fiat money will just build a huge tyrannical government because it can pay its employees wages out of thin air. There is no way of getting around that fact.

Jason
It was a crime when the gold was taken from Americans and the Fed should be forced to return every ounce to the public from which it was stolen. Eventually the NWO is going to come out and say gold and silver is only real money, killing the dollar and putting America into third world status over night.

[LoveIsTruth]

Pure anarchy would be a lack of penalty for refusing to pay, lying about value, counterfeiting, etc. In other words, government should still be involved, but only as far as securing the rights of the people, and no further.

Good quote give_me_liberty! The only proper role of government is to punish fraud and force, and nothing more!

It is the oldest lie in the book to call freedom pure anarchy! (And Jason, sadly, bought that lie).

[LoveIsTruth]

The inherent cost of hard money is acquiring and tying up the valuable commodity (and associated labor) in currency thus putting a damper on economic growth and raising the acquisition cost of whatever material used....particularly expensive if the material is rare and difficult to come by. And in rare circumstances (like 2007) the melt value would exceed the face value thus inciting the people to destroy (melt) their money and hindering economic growth.

That’s the beauty of Freedom, if gold money are “tying up voluble commodity” that gold will be used in something else, because it will be more beneficial to the owner of it! If gold preserves its owner’s purchasing power better as coin, it will be coin for that benefit alone! Freedom works! That’s its beauty!

You can barter today if you so desire....despite a fiat money system. Happens all the time on KSL Classifieds, PYP - Pinching Your Pennies, Craigslist, etc.

The problem is that the government is charging capital gains and sales taxes on the medium of exchange, thus making the use of say gold and silver as the medium of exchange more difficult, and allows the government to steal a part of your gold and silver every time you use it as a medium of exchange. I proposed an amendment that would change all that. (Please see http://www.ldsfreedomforum.com/viewtopi ... 19&t=10942).

For now...but we are headed toward hyperdeflation/hyperinflation/disaster. I think we agree on that.

The system will still function....just the relative value will change.

Yeah, the relative value will change by wiping out the middle class and stealing their wealth. It will function very well!

The NWO crowd will be there with a ready alternative....ironically it could even be gold/silver based since they hold most of the world's supply.

Not true. Most of the worlds gold is held in private hands and not by the governments. As for silver, it is even more defused, and MUCH, MUCH harder to corner. The NWO crowd will never stick with 100% commodity based money, because it prevents them from robbing and controlling the people so much the easier. Freedom is simply IMPOSSIBLE without 100% commodity based system, — the most honest and the most stable monetary system known to man!

Well in the case of our current "fiat" system where money is created by debt (future labor)....you pay for it in the future......and we actually get to be the ones who create it.

Your understanding of fiat money is very messed up. “We actually get to be the ones who create it?” But the government and the banksters are the ones who get to spend it! Robbery and theft is the word for this!

What about a righteous government established by Jesus Himself? Zion? System of credits, fiat, etc created in accordance with labor capacity (population growth)....could not possibly work in such circumstances?

Jesus said: “I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich;” (Rev.3:18)
He did not say: “I counsel thee to buy paper credits tried in the fire.”
There is no need for “credit” (i.e. debt) when real value is concerned!

Let's say you go with 100% gold backed currency and you try as closely as possible to match the amount of gold (current market value) to the face value of the currency.

There is no need to do this! The face value of gold currency is its weight! Period! End of story. The purchasing power fluctuates with supply and demand. And it will be MUCH more stable than fiat paper! 6,000 years of human experience teach that resoundly!

The government has to purchase the gold which requires taxes (people's labor) and then that gold either resides in pockets or a box never increasing or adding additional value for the labor that was put into it (no increase or profit). Is that economically wise?

The purpose of gold money is to preserve your purchasing power over time. That IS its function, and it does so VERY well, at least MUCH, MUCH better than fiat paper (which itself is fraud). And yes, it is economically wise to preserve your purchasing power from being stolen by the government’s printing press, or by the mistakes of others! VERY wise!

In other words, what is the economic cost of using gold or silver based currency?

Compare it to the economic cost of using paper currency, with its institutionalize plunder and theft through legalized counterfeiting and inflation!

Or how much of your labor are you willing to sacrifice just so you can have a "100% honest sound currency.”

If there were no labor involved in producing a currency, it could not possibly be sound or honest! The fact that it requires effort and labor to produce is the very thing that makes gold or silver currency valuable, stable and honest. And it is precisely because paper money take no effort or labor to produce that makes them a definition of fraud and plunder!

"100% honest sound currency" in reality just a hedge against government collapse) with no additional benefit?

It is a protection not only against government collapse, but also from your purchasing power being stolen by deliberate actions or mistakes of others as well. It also restrains the government mightily from becoming a tyrant by robbing the people through legalized counterfeiting and inflation. That is a GREAT “additional” benefit! Your logic is like the one saying: “Seat belt merely saves your life in a collision, without any additional benefit!”

Do we spend all of our efforts for a decade in mining so we have the money to facilitate trade for the following decade?

This sentence demonstrates your complete lack of understanding of how 100% commodity based monetary system works. It is completely IRRELEVANT how much gold is there to its ability to be the medium of exchange. In fact the less of it the better it performs the function! Regardless of the amount of gold available, its purchasing power will simply expand to cover ALL goods and services in the economy. (Provided of course gold is the only medium used, but since it isn’t, this will also apply to silver and to all other commodities used as a medium of exchange).

Can the gold be obtained to keep up with population growth (labor)? Or will we suffer constant deflation thus stealing labor from the younger generations for the older generations? Is that honest money?

The purchasing power of EVERYONE holding gold will increase, young and old! It is much better than the alternative of old people’s purchasing power being stolen by the government’s printing press!

Or do we go through boom and bust cycles depending on mining operations and generational money demand (money/labor ratio)?

How much more boom and bust does the paper cause?

If the NWO has at least 80% of the world's gold....don't they own us?

There is evidence that majority of gold in the world is NOT held by banks, but is dispersed among the people. Besides, you can use silver, or another 100% commodity based monetary system. Contrast it with paper. In essence they OWN 100% percent of paper. They “own” you with paper much more than they ever could with gold! That’s why they HATE the idea of gold for the people with a passion! Because it prevents them from robbing and controlling the people so much the easier. Think about it: If you concede that the banksters control all the governments in the world, why is then the world awash in paper rather than gold? Is it not because paper gives them much more control over the people than gold or silver ever could?

That’s why I say:

• Righteousness + Silver + Gold = Liberty
  Fiat Paper = Tyranny

[LoveIsTruth]

(The fiat unit should be in the hands of Congress and not private banks if we are to have one)

We must NOT have one at all! Fiat unit in the hands of Congress is immoral, impractical (for the people), economically disastrous, and unconstitutional! Fiat money are nothing more than an instrument of plunder, it is SOMETHING for NOTHING, the definition of fraud! To place this instrument of plunder in the hands of Congress will be ultimately as disastrous as putting it into the hands of the Fed by the decree of Congress. This is so because fiat itself is a fraud! And, if enforced, it will inescapably destroy the liberty and prosperity of the people, and eventually the society itself! That’s why the Constitution wisely demands that the States use nothing but gold and silver as money. (See Article I, Section 10). Granted fiat in the hands of Congress without interest attached to money creation is a lesser evil than fiat in the hands of the Fed with interest attached, but it is still EVIL and fraud, and plunder! It will still destroy liberty and prosperity of the people! Because fiat itself is a definition of plunder!

Fiat money will just build a huge tyrannical government because it can pay its employees wages out of thin air. There is no way of getting around that fact.

Brilliant! You are exactly right!

Eventually the NWO is going to come out and say gold and silver is only real money, killing the dollar and putting America into third world status over night.

NWO cannot afford to openly admit that gold and silver is the real money (even though they stock pile it for themselves as much as they can, because they do understand that it is real money), because that will undermine their lust for fiat control over the people. Gold and silver in the hands of the people is a terrible idea to them, because it will render the people independent of their machinations!

[Jason]

Gold and silver have been used for thousands of years so I don't see how all of a sudden its incapable of working. Yea we might have to change the way we purchase some items. Fiat is the new and untested monetary unit in the long view of history. In a hundred years the Fed through fiat has taken our dollar and decimated its value. Robbing every American of their savings over time. Now it can no longer lose much more value without destroying itself.

LOL....agree to disagree. Fiat has proven itself quite well. The reality is the technological changes of the past 2 centuries (which never existed in the prior thousands of years) have necessitated the change to fiat currency. Of course if you want to go backwards to the stone age....

You need to separate out the externalities from the basic functional use of the currency.

(The fiat unit should be in the hands of Congress and not private banks if we are to have one)
Amen! Fix the externalities!

If you are going to use a fiat monetary unit then how does a Federal Government generate deficits? Money made out of nothing at the Federal Government level should not have any debt attached to it. The Federal Government could print its own money owing it back to no bank, people or foreign governments. The US wouldn't have to sell its debts or do any other ridiculous things with it. The only people that would suffer for too much printing would be us Americans through inflation, which we already suffer from. In reality under fiat there is no need for a Federal Tax even. Right now all our Federal tax dollars basically just service the interest on the debt. So again I ask why do Americans put up with Federal deficits and with the brainwashing that these deficits need to be payed down.

Well said.....because they are brainwashed!

Fiat money will just build a huge tyrannical government because it can pay its employees wages out of thin air. There is no way of getting around that fact.

Depends on the righteousness of government (adherence to rule of law) and the rules/laws/constraints under which the system is established.

Jason
It was a crime when the gold was taken from Americans and the Fed should be forced to return every ounce to the public from which it was stolen. Eventually the NWO is going to come out and say gold and silver is only real money, killing the dollar and putting America into third world status over night.

Possibly....hundred different scenarios and none of them look good. But the collapse has to take place in order for a new government to rise from the ashes!

They've taken far more than gold/silver.....taken lifetimes of labor and taken people's lives.

[Jason]

The inherent cost of hard money is acquiring and tying up the valuable commodity (and associated labor) in currency thus putting a damper on economic growth and raising the acquisition cost of whatever material used....particularly expensive if the material is rare and difficult to come by. And in rare circumstances (like 2007) the melt value would exceed the face value thus inciting the people to destroy (melt) their money and hindering economic growth.

That’s the beauty of Freedom, if gold money are “tying up voluble commodity” that gold will be used in something else, because it will be more beneficial to the owner of it! If gold preserves its owner’s purchasing power better as coin, it will be coin for that benefit alone! Freedom works! That’s its beauty!

You can barter today if you so desire....despite a fiat money system. Happens all the time on KSL Classifieds, PYP - Pinching Your Pennies, Craigslist, etc.

The problem is that the government is charging capital gains and sales taxes on the medium of exchange, thus making the use of say gold and silver as the medium of exchange more difficult, and allows the government to steal a part of your gold and silver every time you use it as a medium of exchange. I proposed an amendment that would change all that. (Please see http://www.ldsfreedomforum.com/viewtopi ... 19&t=10942).

For now...but we are headed toward hyperdeflation/hyperinflation/disaster. I think we agree on that.

The system will still function....just the relative value will change.

Yeah, the relative value will change by wiping out the middle class and stealing their wealth. It will function very well!

The NWO crowd will be there with a ready alternative....ironically it could even be gold/silver based since they hold most of the world's supply.

Not true. Most of the worlds gold is held in private hands and not by the governments. As for silver, it is even more defused, and MUCH, MUCH harder to corner. The NWO crowd will never stick with 100% commodity based money, because it prevents them from robbing and controlling the people so much the easier. Freedom is simply IMPOSSIBLE without 100% commodity based system, — the most honest and the most stable monetary system known to man!

Well in the case of our current "fiat" system where money is created by debt (future labor)....you pay for it in the future......and we actually get to be the ones who create it.

Your understanding of fiat money is very messed up. “We actually get to be the ones who create it?” But the government and the banksters are the ones who get to spend it! Robbery and theft is the word for this!

What about a righteous government established by Jesus Himself? Zion? System of credits, fiat, etc created in accordance with labor capacity (population growth)....could not possibly work in such circumstances?

Jesus said: “I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich;” (Rev.3:18)
He did not say: “I counsel thee to buy paper credits tried in the fire.”
There is no need for “credit” (i.e. debt) when real value is concerned!

Let's say you go with 100% gold backed currency and you try as closely as possible to match the amount of gold (current market value) to the face value of the currency.

There is no need to do this! The face value of gold currency is its weight! Period! End of story. The purchasing power fluctuates with supply and demand. And it will be MUCH more stable than fiat paper! 6,000 years of human experience teach that resoundly!

The government has to purchase the gold which requires taxes (people's labor) and then that gold either resides in pockets or a box never increasing or adding additional value for the labor that was put into it (no increase or profit). Is that economically wise?

The purpose of gold money is to preserve your purchasing power over time. That IS its function, and it does so VERY well, at least MUCH, MUCH better than fiat paper (which itself is fraud). And yes, it is economically wise to preserver your purchasing power from being stolen by the government’s printing press, or by the mistakes of others! VERY wise!

In other words, what is the economic cost of using gold or silver based currency?

Compare it to the economic cost of using paper currency, with its institutionalize plunder and theft through legalized counterfeiting and inflation!

Or how much of your labor are you willing to sacrifice just so you can have a "100% honest sound currency.”

If there were no labor involved in producing a currency, it could not possibly be sound or honest! The fact that it requires effort and labor to produce is the very thing that makes gold or silver currency valuable, stable and honest. And it is precisely because paper money take no effort or labor to produce that makes them a definition of fraud and plunder!

"100% honest sound currency" in reality just a hedge against government collapse) with no additional benefit?

It is a protection not only against government collapse, but also from your purchasing power being stolen by deliberate actions or mistakes of others as well. It also restrains the government mightily from becoming a tyrant by robbing the people through legalized counterfeiting and inflation. That is a GREAT “additional” benefit! Your logic is like the one saying: “Seat belt merely saves your life in a collision, without any additional benefit!”

Do we spend all of our efforts for a decade in mining so we have the money to facilitate trade for the following decade?

This sentence demonstrates your complete lack of understanding of how 100% commodity based monetary system works. It is completely IRRELEVANT how much gold is there to its ability to be the medium of exchange. In fact the less of it the better it performs the function! Regardless of the amount of gold available, it’s purchasing power will simply expand to cover ALL goods and services in the economy. (Provided of course gold is the only medium used, but since it isn’t, this will also apply to silver and to all other commodities used as a medium of exchange).

Can the gold be obtained to keep up with population growth (labor)? Or will we suffer constant deflation thus stealing labor from the younger generations for the older generations? Is that honest money?

The purchasing power of EVERYONE holding gold will increase, young and old! It is much better than the alternative of old people’s purchasing power being stolen by the government’s printing press!

Or do we go through boom and bust cycles depending on mining operations and generational money demand (money/labor ratio)?

How much more boom and bust does the paper cause?

If the NWO has at least 80% of the world's gold....don't they own us?

There is evidence that majority of gold in the world is NOT held by banks, but is dispersed among the people. Besides, you can use silver, or another 100% commodity based monetary system. Contrast it with paper. In essence they OWN 100% percent of paper. They “own” you with paper much more than they ever could with gold! That’s why the HATE the idea of gold for the people with a passion! Because it prevents them from robbing and controlling the people so much the easier. Think about it: If you concede that the banksters control all the governments in the world, why is then the world awash in paper rather than gold? Is it not because paper gives them much more control over the people than gold or silver ever could?

That’s why I say:

• Righteousness + Silver + Gold = Liberty
  Fiat Paper = Tyranny

If you require the treasures of the earth in order to have liberty.....what's your game plan for taking them away from satan????

[LoveIsTruth]

Fiat has proven itself quite well.

Fiat has proven to be the most insidious tool of plunder ever devised by man. Its proper name is FRAUD. (Incidentally, this is exactly how it was spelled in the Federal Reserve act: the new fiat dollar was to be called: Federal Reserve Accounting Unit Dollar = F.R.A.U.D!) Cute …

The reality is the technological changes of the past 2 centuries (which never existed in the prior thousands of years) have necessitated the change to fiat currency.

Bankster propaganda not supported by reason or logic. Fraud is fraud either now or 6,000 years earlier, it is still fraud!

Of course if you want to go backwards to the stone age....

When US had free competition in currencies and largely 100% backed dollar in 1800’s there was unprecedented growth and prosperity. In fact it scared the banksters that the capital became disconnected from banks and began to be concentrated in industries and private hands. That’s why they staged the panics and pulled off the Federal Reserve Fraud Act to check the people’s progress and to prevent them from braking off from under the bankster clutches!

You need to separate out the externalities from the basic functional use of the currency.

The entire fiat system is an externality! Just like robbery and theft are externality, and cannot be made just by tweaking them! You cannot fix robbery and theft and make them more palatable except by abolishing them! The system is immoral at the core. It is the essence of plunder.

Fix the externalities!

To fix the externalities in an unbacked fiat monetary systme is to abolish it! Because the whole thing is externality i.e. SOMETHING for NOTHING a.k.a. FRAUD!

Depends on the righteousness of government (adherence to rule of law) and the rules/laws/constraints under which the system is established.

100% commodity based system has PHYSICAL constrains built into it. It binds the government as it were with chains of iron, preventing them from robbing the people through legalized counterfeiting and inflation.

They've taken far more than gold/silver.....taken lifetimes of labor and taken people's lives.

There I agree with you. But what escapes you is that the taking of peoples’ “lifetimes of labor” was accomplished BY taking people’s gold/silver! It is unbacked fiat that made it all possible on such scale!

[LoveIsTruth]

If you require the treasures of the earth in order to have liberty…

Liberty in this world, and private property (which includes the treasures of the earth) are one and the same! There can NEVER be liberty in this world without private property, which broadly interpreted includes your mind, your body, your freedom to act, to labor, to keep the fruits of your labor, etc. . So in this context Liberty and Private Property are one and the same! One does not exist without the other! He who would diminish or violate private property diminishes and violates people’s Liberty, because, again they are ONE and the same!

...what's your game plan for taking them away from satan????

Take peoples’ hearts away from Satan, by teaching them the Gospel of Christ, part of which is honesty and integrity, part of which is an honest monetary system. And 100% commodity based interest free monetary system is the most honest and stable monetary system known to man, without which liberty in this world is impossible. The best way to establish such system is to legalize free competition in currencies, because Freedom works, and it is the ONLY thing that truly does work!

[Jason]

If you require the treasures of the earth in order to have liberty…

Liberty in this world, and private property (which includes the treasures of the earth) are one and the same! There can NEVER be liberty in this world without private property, which broadly interpreted includes your mind, your body, your freedom to act, to labor, to keep the fruits of your labor, etc. . So in this context Liberty and Private Property are one and the same! One does not exist without the other! He who would diminish or violate private property diminishes and violates people’s Liberty, because, again they are ONE and the same!

...what's your game plan for taking them away from satan????

Take peoples’ hearts away from Satan, by teaching them the Gospel of Christ, part of which is honesty and integrity, part of which is an honest monetary system. And 100% commodity based interest free monetary system is the most honest and stable monetary system known to man, without which liberty in this world is impossible. The best way to establish such system is to legalize free competition in currencies, because Freedom works, and it is the ONLY thing that truly does work!

....never personally witnessed nor heard of discussions on an honest monetary system being included in teaching people the Gospel of Jesus Christ...maybe you've had a different experience???

[LoveIsTruth]

....never personally witnessed nor heard of discussions on an honest monetary system being included in teaching people the Gospel of Jesus Christ...maybe you've had a different experience???

Honest monetary system is implied in "Thou shall not steal."