FOX: Ron Paul & Lew Rockwell: Fed Enabler of War

[LoveIsTruth]

Good one 'Shimdidly'! Thank you!

[Jason]

Ahh so you would completely eradicate exchange rates as long as the other countries have same gold denominated currency???

You can have any exchange rate you like as long as the parties are free to participate or not to participate. If gold is the currency, exchange rate is quite simple: 1 to 1 as far as weight and purity is concerned.

And the country sitting on the largest gold/silver deposits then buys up the world???

Whatever the country is “sitting on” is theirs, just as what you are sitting on is yours. You can use anything you like as money. All I am saying, that given freedom and free competition in currencies, gold and silver will probably be most preferred over the long run. But whatever is preferred, people must be free to make that choice, because ONLY when free competition in currencies exists, the government can be held in check against robbing the people through legalized counterfeiting and inflation.

I will take the treasure of the earth, and with gold and silver I will buy up armies and navies, Popes and false priests who oppress, and tyrants who destroy, and reign with blood and horror on the earth!

I assure you that there is much more blood and horror and tyranny on the earth because of fiat paper than because of gold. If it was not so, why do you think the world is awash in fiat currencies now, when you and I agree that banksters seized the control of governments so long ago? Because paper allows them to rob the people so much the easier! In fact none of the world wars would have been even possible without fiat paper, because it was impossible for the respective governments to tax their people directly for the war without people rebelling against it; so they confiscated people’s property through a much slyer and stealthier way,—legalized counterfeiting and inflation! Massive depreciation of paper currencies during the war is the testament to enormous wealth confiscated by governments from the people through the medium of fiat paper money inflation.

100% Free markets aren't what they are cracked up to be.....

why don't you base the new global currency on rare earth elements with 100% free market and see who rules the world within a year or two....and then what happens to whatever freedoms you might have left!

[Shimdidly]

Ahh so you would completely eradicate exchange rates as long as the other countries have same gold denominated currency???

You can have any exchange rate you like as long as the parties are free to participate or not to participate. If gold is the currency, exchange rate is quite simple: 1 to 1 as far as weight and purity is concerned.

And the country sitting on the largest gold/silver deposits then buys up the world???

Whatever the country is “sitting on” is theirs, just as what you are sitting on is yours. You can use anything you like as money. All I am saying, that given freedom and free competition in currencies, gold and silver will probably be most preferred over the long run. But whatever is preferred, people must be free to make that choice, because ONLY when free competition in currencies exists, the government can be held in check against robbing the people through legalized counterfeiting and inflation.

I will take the treasure of the earth, and with gold and silver I will buy up armies and navies, Popes and false priests who oppress, and tyrants who destroy, and reign with blood and horror on the earth!

I assure you that there is much more blood and horror and tyranny on the earth because of fiat paper than because of gold. If it was not so, why do you think the world is awash in fiat currencies now, when you and I agree that banksters seized the control of governments so long ago? Because paper allows them to rob the people so much the easier! In fact none of the world wars would have been even possible without fiat paper, because it was impossible for the respective governments to tax their people directly for the war without people rebelling against it; so they confiscated people’s property through a much slyer and stealthier way,—legalized counterfeiting and inflation! Massive depreciation of paper currencies during the war is the testament to enormous wealth confiscated by governments from the people through the medium of fiat paper money inflation.

100% Free markets aren't what they are cracked up to be.....

why don't you base the new global currency on rare earth elements with 100% free market and see who rules the world within a year or two....and then what happens to whatever freedoms you might have left!

Why don't you base the world currency on government forced fiat/legal counterfeiting and see who rules the world. What is the solution, Jason.

[Shimdidly]

All I'm basing it on is history. The founding fathers left us with a free enterprise system and a Republic that limited what government could do, and, I don't know, I'm only assuming it changed the world and produced enough wealth to spread around the world.

PS - Sorry for double posting but I'm on an iPod touch and it doesn't format messages as long as the last one very well enough to edit them

[LoveIsTruth]

100% Free markets aren't what they are cracked up to be.....

why don't you base the new global currency on rare earth elements with 100% free market and see who rules the world within a year or two....and then what happens to whatever freedoms you might have left!

You contradict yourself. Under 100% free market, the market decides what to base a currency on, not you.

100% free markets are liberty. If you do not believe in 100% liberty it is your problem. A little tyranny, is like being a little pregnant. We stand on principle: Liberty is good, tyranny is bad. I guess its too simple for you. But that's the truth.

[Shimdidly]

You have a choice between liberty or tyranny. Without government there can be no freedom, and with too much government you cannot have freedom. The Articles of Confederation were much better than the previous tyrannies that stifled the human spirit and innovation for thousands of years, but still too weak. Our constitutional republic was the most efficient vehicle for freedom in the history of man. The only known system that was better was the city of Enoch, and it got translated. Our constitution favors a free market with very little government involvement. That especially changed in 1913 when the Fed was created. I believe we will see our republic again in it's full beauty, or in it's own due time, an even better system. We are waking up and more people than ever before in the last 100 years understand what true freedom is. We still have a chance to save our republic.

[Jason]

100% Free markets aren't what they are cracked up to be.....

why don't you base the new global currency on rare earth elements with 100% free market and see who rules the world within a year or two....and then what happens to whatever freedoms you might have left!

Why don't you base the world currency on government forced fiat/legal counterfeiting and see who rules the world. What is the solution, Jason.

Righteousness........the wicked have need of harsher taskmasters!

[Jason]

100% Free markets aren't what they are cracked up to be.....

why don't you base the new global currency on rare earth elements with 100% free market and see who rules the world within a year or two....and then what happens to whatever freedoms you might have left!

You contradict yourself. Under 100% free market, the market decides what to base a currency on, not you.

100% free markets are liberty. If you do not believe in 100% liberty it is your problem. A little tyranny, is like being a little pregnant. We stand on principle: Liberty is good, tyranny is bad. I guess its too simple for you. But that's the truth.

100% free markets is a figment of your imagination as it never exists nor will exist as its anarchy and historically anarchy has never lasted for any measurable length of time as the people were always begging someone to step up to the plate and constrain things again.

[LoveIsTruth]

100% free markets is a figment of your imagination as it never exists nor will exist as its anarchy and historically anarchy has never lasted for any measurable length of time as the people were always begging someone to step up to the plate and constrain things again.

Well, then you do not understand what free market is. Free market is not anarchy, any more than freedom is anarchy. Freedom, or free market, is when you can do with your property as you please, as long as you do not violate the property of others. When force and fraud are punished it does not diminish Liberty or free markets, but increases them.

[Shimdidly]

Without some governing force, or enforcement of honest principals, you cannot have freedom in a market, either. This argument has devolved into conflicting definitions. Experience has shown it's pretty pointless to continue if we can't agree on what "free" means.

[p51-mustang]

You have a choice between liberty or tyranny. Without government there can be no freedom, and with too much government you cannot have freedom. The Articles of Confederation were much better than the previous tyrannies that stifled the human spirit and innovation for thousands of years, but still too weak. Our constitutional republic was the most efficient vehicle for freedom in the history of man. The only known system that was better was the city of Enoch, and it got translated. Our constitution favors a free market with very little government involvement. That especially changed in 1913 when the Fed was created. I believe we will see our republic again in it's full beauty, or in it's own due time, an even better system. We are waking up and more people than ever before in the last 100 years understand what true freedom is. We still have a chance to save our republic.

At this point we are going to have to go thru hell to save it.

[LoveIsTruth]

Without some governing force, or enforcement of honest principals, you cannot have freedom in a market, either. This argument has devolved into conflicting definitions. Experience has shown it's pretty pointless to continue if we can't agree on what "free" means.

My definition of freedom coincides with Jefferson's definition:

• "Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual."
  -- Thomas Jefferson

[Jason]

100% free markets is a figment of your imagination as it never exists nor will exist as its anarchy and historically anarchy has never lasted for any measurable length of time as the people were always begging someone to step up to the plate and constrain things again.

Well, then you do not understand what free market is. Free market is not anarchy, any more than freedom is anarchy. Freedom, or free market, is when you can do with your property as you please, as long as you do not violate the property of others. When force and fraud are punished it does not diminish Liberty or free markets, but increases them.

That's not the context of the way you have been using the term.....especially with regard to use of currencies and the basis of currency. The way you use the term "100% free market" in that context is pure anarchy.....or complete freedom from influence by nationalities, corporations, etc etc etc.....which can only occur in anarchy.

[Jason]

Without some governing force, or enforcement of honest principals, you cannot have freedom in a market, either. This argument has devolved into conflicting definitions. Experience has shown it's pretty pointless to continue if we can't agree on what "free" means.

Amen! Without the foundation of laws and enforcement of said laws....no man is truly free.

[Glenn]

Glenn wrote:
I certainly have Austrian leanings when it comes to monetary policy. History, however, shows that hard money is hardly a firm protection against inflation and abuse. There is a fascinating article about inflation and monetary policy during the Late Roman Empire. In short, commodities may make currency debasement and inflation more cumbersome for the ruling class, but it does not serve as a guaranteed form of wealth protection for those being ruled. Just government, a recognized Rule of Law, and transparency are key ingredients as well.. Read and enjoy!

http://mises.org/daily/3663

ithink wrote:
http://mises.org/daily/3663
Interesting article, but it doesn't hit at the underlying problem with usury. However, it led me to discover that Usury was forbidden by Roman law, so thank you Glenn. Perhaps that was a key to the longevity of that empire? When did they abandon the prohibition? Anyone know?

If you care to trade reading material, here is something worth looking at as well: http://www.reformation.org/federal-reserve.html

Ithink, thanks for the link! I am moderately versed on the history of central banking. I believe our perspectives are in alignment for the most part. (I have a few questions to ask you in an upcoming post).

I feel it’s worth restating that there are two primary components of monetary policy that lead to the ruin of a society:

1) First is the theft of wealth that occurs through debasement/inflation (hard currencies and fiat alike). I will classify this as “monetary integrity”.

2) Secondly is the use of compounded interest by lenders that will ultimately result in the total slavery/ruin of those they lend to. I will classify this as “monetary policy”.

When a central bank secures the right to issue a nation’s currency with compounding interest there will never be enough capital to pay back both the principal and compounded interest (ultimately it is a fraudulent scheme). Such a financial system – like the one we are currently under – will create a monetary black hole from which there can be no mathematical escape; only the overthrow of the monetary system in question will suffice. This supersedes the integrity of the actual money itself in its ultimate ramifications.

Finally, in response to the many passionate posts on this thread, I will share my position on the matter. If the first two components to monetary policy mentioned above were addressed -- namely competing currencies for integrity (perhaps involving precious metals), and a public treasury that did not employ the strategy of compounded interest in behalf of private beneficiaries -- a free and open medium of exchange would still not survive long without a Just Rule of Law. In other words Fiat, Seashells or even Gold cannot ultimately save a society from corruption and wickedness. Many focus on monetary integrity as the panacea to ruin, but like the double helix in a strand of DNA, any monetary system must be supported by a Just Legal framework, or it will inevitably fall into the hands of the devious few.

A just society recognizes the need to protect individual property and labor; money is how that personal property/labor is typically quantified and exchanged. In other words, in today’s society money represents our personal property and labor, the protection of which determines the difference between freedom, and slavery. As most on this forum now realize, our nation, even western civilization collectively, is now failing on all three counts (monetary integrity, monetary policy and the Rule of Law). This is the great burden of our times.

As always, I enjoy the input and perspectives found on this forum.

[LoveIsTruth]

That's not the context of the way you have been using the term.....especially with regard to use of currencies and the basis of currency. The way you use the term "100% free market" in that context is pure anarchy.....or complete freedom from influence by nationalities, corporations, etc etc etc.....which can only occur in anarchy.

Please give an example where I used the term thus. I am not aware of it.

Nationalities and corporations or anyone else can have all the influence they want, as long as that influence is free from force and fraud. Force and fraud need to be punished promptly for truly free market to flourish. And this is the meaning that I put in term "free market."

[LoveIsTruth]

Amen! Without the foundation of laws and enforcement of said laws....no man is truly free.

The only laws that make people free are those that punish force and fraud. Everything else are different degrees of tyranny and usurpation.

[shadow]

Amen! Without the foundation of laws and enforcement of said laws....no man is truly free.

The only laws that make people free are those that punish force and fraud. Everything else are different degrees of tyranny and usurpation.

Like the law of tithing??

[Jason]

Glenn wrote:
I certainly have Austrian leanings when it comes to monetary policy. History, however, shows that hard money is hardly a firm protection against inflation and abuse. There is a fascinating article about inflation and monetary policy during the Late Roman Empire. In short, commodities may make currency debasement and inflation more cumbersome for the ruling class, but it does not serve as a guaranteed form of wealth protection for those being ruled. Just government, a recognized Rule of Law, and transparency are key ingredients as well.. Read and enjoy!

http://mises.org/daily/3663

ithink wrote:
http://mises.org/daily/3663
Interesting article, but it doesn't hit at the underlying problem with usury. However, it led me to discover that Usury was forbidden by Roman law, so thank you Glenn. Perhaps that was a key to the longevity of that empire? When did they abandon the prohibition? Anyone know?

If you care to trade reading material, here is something worth looking at as well: http://www.reformation.org/federal-reserve.html

Ithink, thanks for the link! I am moderately versed on the history of central banking. I believe our perspectives are in alignment for the most part. (I have a few questions to ask you in an upcoming post).

I feel it’s worth restating that there are two primary components of monetary policy that lead to the ruin of a society:

1) First is the theft of wealth that occurs through debasement/inflation (hard currencies and fiat alike). I will classify this as “monetary integrity”.

2) Secondly is the use of compounded interest by lenders that will ultimately result in the total slavery/ruin of those they lend to. I will classify this as “monetary policy”.

When a central bank secures the right to issue a nation’s currency with compounding interest there will never be enough capital to pay back both the principal and compounded interest (ultimately it is a fraudulent scheme). Such a financial system – like the one we are currently under – will create a monetary black hole from which there can be no mathematical escape; only the overthrow of the monetary system in question will suffice. This supersedes the integrity of the actual money itself in its ultimate ramifications.

Finally, in response to the many passionate posts on this thread, I will share my position on the matter. If the first two components to monetary policy mentioned above were addressed -- namely competing currencies for integrity (perhaps involving precious metals), and a public treasury that did not employ the strategy of compounded interest in behalf of private beneficiaries -- a free and open medium of exchange would still not survive long without a Just Rule of Law. In other words Fiat, Seashells or even Gold cannot ultimately save a society from corruption and wickedness. Many focus on monetary integrity as the panacea to ruin, but like the double helix in a strand of DNA, any monetary system must be supported by a Just Legal framework, or it will inevitably fall into the hands of the devious few.

A just society recognizes the need to protect individual property and labor; money is how that personal property/labor is typically quantified and exchanged. In other words, in today’s society money represents our personal property and labor, the protection of which determines the difference between freedom, and slavery. As most on this forum now realize, our nation, even western civilization collectively, is now failing on all three counts (monetary integrity, monetary policy and the Rule of Law). This is the great burden of our times.

As always, I enjoy the input and perspectives found on this forum.

Well said!!! One point to remember....the people who created the system weren't idiots....and they don't work for an idiot. The failure creates opportunity for change. Pieces on the chess board....

And there is only one who can save!

[Jason]

That's not the context of the way you have been using the term.....especially with regard to use of currencies and the basis of currency. The way you use the term "100% free market" in that context is pure anarchy.....or complete freedom from influence by nationalities, corporations, etc etc etc.....which can only occur in anarchy.

Please give an example where I used the term thus. I am not aware of it.

Nationalities and corporations or anyone else can have all the influence they want, as long as that influence is free from force and fraud. Force and fraud need to be punished promptly for truly free market to flourish. And this is the meaning that I put in term "free market."

LOL...go back and read your posts. Frankly its not worth my time. Anyways.....

You finally nailed it!

Nationalities and corporations or anyone else can have all the influence they want, as long as that influence is free from force and fraud.

...in other words - righteousness is the only way!

Force and fraud need to be punished promptly for truly free market to flourish. And this is the meaning that I put in term "free market."

And then within a framework of rule of law (i.e. righteous law....enforced of course...by force).

So you can rant and rave all day about gold or silver or copper or what ever flavor of commodity you wish to be "coined" by a righteous government for money.....but until you have a righteous people and an enforced just rule of law.....you're just barking at the moon!

So instead of ranting and raving about gold/silver currency....how about doing something valuable with your time and figuring out a way to gain the enforceable upper hand and coax the majority of the people to righteousness!

[LoveIsTruth]

Amen! Without the foundation of laws and enforcement of said laws....no man is truly free.

The only laws that make people free are those that punish force and fraud. Everything else are different degrees of tyranny and usurpation.

Like the law of tithing??

I am talking about the laws of men, and not the laws of God. Mind you, tithing in the church is not collected with a gun to your head, but voluntary. And this is the difference. Freedom is the difference.

[LoveIsTruth]

So you can rant and rave all day about gold or silver or copper or what ever flavor of commodity you wish to be "coined" by a righteous government for money.....but until you have a righteous people and an enforced just rule of law.....you're just barking at the moon!

So instead of ranting and raving about gold/silver currency....how about doing something valuable with your time and figuring out a way to gain the enforceable upper hand and coax the majority of the people to righteousness!

An honest monetary system is an absolute and indispensable key without which no righteous social order or liberty is even possible. Your logic is like saying, "Don't worry about theft and plunder, let them be, in fact, ridicule and make fun of the people who teach an honest system, concentrate on making people righteous first." Don't you see, that teaching people against theft and plunder, and establishing laws that prevent it, and are conducive to justice and to honesty, is a key part of making people righteous?

[LoveIsTruth]

I feel it’s worth restating that there are two primary components of monetary policy that lead to the ruin of a society:

1) First is the theft of wealth that occurs through debasement/inflation (hard currencies and fiat alike). I will classify this as “monetary integrity”.

2) Secondly is the use of compounded interest by lenders that will ultimately result in the total slavery/ruin of those they lend to. I will classify this as “monetary policy”.

It is interesting to note that allowing free competition in currencies solves BOTH problems, and does so in the best possible way. Removing government force from the realm of money, and thus allowing free market to operate in currencies destroys fiat with it's conjuring "money" out of nothing and accompanying inflation, it also preserves the quality of commodity based currencies, just like it preserves the quality of any other product. Secondly it largely destroys compound interest attached to money creation, because in a truly free market people will overwhelmingly prefer 100% commodity based, interest free currency, -- the most honest and the most stable monetary system known to man.

[Jason]

So you can rant and rave all day about gold or silver or copper or what ever flavor of commodity you wish to be "coined" by a righteous government for money.....but until you have a righteous people and an enforced just rule of law.....you're just barking at the moon!

So instead of ranting and raving about gold/silver currency....how about doing something valuable with your time and figuring out a way to gain the enforceable upper hand and coax the majority of the people to righteousness!

An honest monetary system is an absolute and indispensable key without which no righteous social order or liberty is even possible. Your logic is like saying, "Don't worry about theft and plunder, let them be, concentrate on making people righteous first." Don't you see, that teaching people against theft and plunder, and establishing laws that prevent it, is a key part of making people righteous?

LOL....since you are so convinced that is the sole solution.....will you set the example and give up your FRNs first???

Agree to disagree!

[Jason]

I feel it’s worth restating that there are two primary components of monetary policy that lead to the ruin of a society:

1) First is the theft of wealth that occurs through debasement/inflation (hard currencies and fiat alike). I will classify this as “monetary integrity”.

2) Secondly is the use of compounded interest by lenders that will ultimately result in the total slavery/ruin of those they lend to. I will classify this as “monetary policy”.

It is interesting to note that allowing free competition in currencies solves BOTH problems, and does so in the best possible way. Removing government force from the realm of money, and thus allowing free market to operate in currencies destroys fiat with it's conjuring "money" out of nothing and accompanying inflation, it also preserves the quality of commodity based currencies, just like it preserves the quality of any other product. Secondly it largely destroys compound interest attached to money creation, because in a truly free market people will overwhelmingly prefer 100% commodity based, interest free currency, -- the most honest and the most stable monetary system known to man.

If wishes were fishes.....