FOX: Ron Paul & Lew Rockwell: Fed Enabler of War

[LoveIsTruth]

FOX: Ron Paul & Lew Rockwell: Fed Enabler of War



If there was no government forced fiat, none of the world wars would have happened, because it was impossible to tax people directly to raise funds for such wars, so the government steals people's wealth through legalized counterfeiting and inflation to finance the carnage. Therefore government forced fiat money is drenched in the blood of hundreds of millions! Honest money makes all this militarism quite impossible. Therefore sound money keeps government in check, and protects liberty and prosperity of the people!

Honest, sound monetary system and liberty are intrinsically connected, because the one is impossible without the other. Liberty cannot exist under government forced fiat fraud!

• Righteousness + Silver + Gold = Liberty
  Fiat Paper = Tyranny

[ithink]

FOX: Ron Paul & Lew Rockwell: Fed Enabler of War

If there was no government forced fiat, none of the world wars would have happened, because it was impossible to tax people directly to raise funds for such wars, so the government steals people's wealth through legalized counterfeiting and inflation to finance the carnage. Therefore government forced fiat money is drenched in the blood of hundreds of millions! Honest money makes all this militarism quite impossible. Therefore sound money keeps government in check, and protects liberty and prosperity of the people!

Are you Amish? If you aren't, then you are grateful for a flexible money supply that can keep up with the productive capacity of the hard working people of the planet. If you don't like it, then get used to an Amish lifestyle, because that is what gold will get you.

The problem is not fiat money, it is compound interest system in the hands of private profiteers.

Oh, and for the record: thank Abraham Lincoln for printing a few greenbacks to save your republic when it was most needed. Let's not overlook the details, my shilling friend.

BTW, have you read any of the books I recommended? I would think: of course not! And why not? Because you are the epitomy of the new type of scholar, having acquired "erudition without study, authority without cost, and judgment without effort", to borrow from Ayn Rand. Whatever happened to a truth standing on it's own? I mean, can you make any post without referencing the obnoxious myth building hero worship method of modern research called youtube?

[fps.sledge]

So does reading a some select books qualify you to make those statements, ithink? Get real.

All those really seem to do is educate you on how to better articulate an insult. I'm sure if makes you feel better about yourself as well.

That's not fair anyways. Many economists agree with the Gold standard. I don't know, but I'm assuming they make more money than yourself in the private business sector, if that has any merit. Many of these economist write books denouncing the system you hail.

I know many people who claim who be "scholars" of the bible. They do know more about the bible than me. I will admit that. It still doesn't qualify them to understand the true gospel. Just something to consider next time you make comment along the lines of your last post.

If you wish to direct my personal education to comply with your standards, then go ahead and private message me.

[moonwhim]

FOX: Ron Paul & Lew Rockwell: Fed Enabler of War

If there was no government forced fiat, none of the world wars would have happened, because it was impossible to tax people directly to raise funds for such wars, so the government steals people's wealth through legalized counterfeiting and inflation to finance the carnage. Therefore government forced fiat money is drenched in the blood of hundreds of millions! Honest money makes all this militarism quite impossible. Therefore sound money keeps government in check, and protects liberty and prosperity of the people!

Are you Amish? If you aren't, then you are grateful for a flexible money supply that can keep up with the productive capacity of the hard working people of the planet. If you don't like it, then get used to an Amish lifestyle, because that is what gold will get you.

The problem is not fiat money, it is compound interest system in the hands of private profiteers.

Oh, and for the record: thank Abraham Lincoln for printing a few greenbacks to save your republic when it was most needed. Let's not overlook the details, my shilling friend.

BTW, have you read any of the books I recommended? I would think: of course not! And why not? Because you are the epitomy of the new type of scholar, having acquired "erudition without study, authority without cost, and judgment without effort", to borrow from Ayn Rand. Whatever happened to a truth standing on it's own? I mean, can you make any post without referencing the obnoxious myth building hero worship method of modern research called youtube?

MEET BILL STILL, FIAT-MONEY ADVOCATE
An analysis of the documentaries Money Masters and Capital Crimes
© 2006 by G. Edward Griffin

The purpose of this analysis is to evaluate two video documentaries on monetary issues that were written and produced by Bill Still. One is The Money Masters and the other is Capital Crimes. They are excellent productions with a great deal of history and professionally created images. They tell the story of our debauched monetary system based on fractional-reserve banking. There is just one problem. They offer a false solution – which is to say they offer no solution at all. The alleged solution is that we abandon our present fiat money system and adopt another one similar to it. Yes, they actually advocate FIAT money! The proposal is that we should take the power to create money-out-of-nothing away from big, bad bankers and turn it over to nice, trustworthy politicians. In my view, it is very naïve to think that politicians are more trustworthy than bankers. The problem with money created out of nothing is not who does it but that it is done at all.

These documentaries remind me of William Greider's book, Secrets of the Temple, which was offered to the public as a scathing exposé of the Federal Reserve System. Greider’s history was excellent, but his conclusion was fatally flawed. After having proved that the Fed was conceived as a weapon of the banking elite against the common man and having shown that this is exactly the function it has always served, his conclusion was, not to abolish the Fed or even to make serious changes to it. His “call to action” was simply to stop worrying about it. The Fed has made mistakes, he said, but we have learned many lessons along the way. All we need now are wiser men to run it! That is the kind of solution that made his book acceptable to the giant publishing house, Simon and Schuster. It is no solution at all. The elite do not care what we know about a problem they have created if we do nothing to solve it. They are good at putting forth their own opposition – writers like Greider – who will sound the alarm and rally the troops but lead them – nowhere.

More recently, Simon and Schuster published another book in this same genre, Day of Deceit; The Truth about FDR and Pearl Harbor, by Robert Stinnett. It is a blockbuster of facts and previously hidden documents proving conclusively that FDR, Secretary-of-War Henry Stimson, General George Marshall, and many others in the Roosevelt Administration secretly plotted to cause Japan to successfully Attack Pearl Harbor. They did this to create an excuse for bringing the United States into World War II, which they desired for political reasons. So, what was Stinnett's conclusion? Was it to condemn these men for their treachery? Not at all. It was that this act was justified because it helped put a stop to Hitler in Europe. In other words, to halt totalitarianism in Europe, it was necessary to adopt totalitarianism in America, and to do so was an act of statesmanship! Once again, Simon and Schuster provided the American people with a false opinion leader. What's the point of getting all frothed up over a president lying to the voters and deliberately causing thousands of Americans to be killed if we are then to decide that he was a hero for dong so?

That is exactly what Bill Still has done in his documentaries. The solution to fiat money is not MORE fiat money. It is REAL money based on tangible assets, and none has yet been discovered that serves as well as gold or silver. The assertion in the videos that wooden sticks were successfully used in England as money is grossly misleading. Tally sticks were occasionally used like government-issued script that could be applied to the payment of taxes, but at no time in history were they ever used as a medium of exchange for substantial economic transactions. To propose that we now can live with fiat money based on that myth is a non-solution of the highest order.

Still points with admiration to some of the darkest days of the American Republic. He praises Lincoln for issuing debt-based money, called Greenbacks, during the Civil War even though this was a blatant violation of the Constitution. His argument is not that this was a desperate expediency required by the urgency of war, but that it was an act of brilliant monetary statesmanship. In a similar vein, he approvingly surveys the early colonial period in which colonial governments resorted to printing-press money without silver or gold backing. It led to disastrous inflation and was devastating to the common man; but he says this was caused, not by flooding the colonies with fiat money, but by England forcing the colonies to STOP the practice! He relies on the words of Benjamin Franklin to support his case, and, indeed, Franklin speaks forcefully. Still does not explain that, although Franklin was an advocate of fiat money in the early years, after the experience of rampant inflation had taught its painful lesson, such a view was in the extreme minority. Still makes it appear that Franklin was expressing the consensus of the Founding Fathers when, in fact, it was just the opposite.

Still claims that it would be a mistake to return to a gold-backed monetary system because most of the world’s gold now is held by the bankers. This is a deceptively appealing argument. First, it is not true. Central banks do hold more gold than any other single entity; but the total inventory of gold in the hands of private citizens, as bullion or coins or jewelry or known deposits in working mines, is much larger. If money were to be restored to a precious-metal base, this largely invisible reserve would be more than adequate to supply the demand. We must remember that the limited supply of gold as a monetary base is an advantage, not a disadvantage. If it were not scarce, it would not have utility as money. The smaller the supply, the more valuable it is. As pointed out in The Creature from Jekyll Island, any amount of gold or silver will work just as well as any other amount. The only difference is how valuable each unit of measure will be. The argument that “we don’t have enough gold in the world” is without foundation, and those who say this do not understand the fundamental mechanics of money.

Bill Still does not make this argument but he comes close when he says that most of the world’s gold is held by the bankers. Even if this were true (which it is not) we need to ask a question: If gold is so useless as a backing for money, why are the bankers trying to acquire it as fast as they can? And why are central bankers so strongly opposed to gold or silver-backed currencies? The answer is obvious. It is because precious metals still are, and will continue to be, a universally recognized storehouse of value, and that value cannot be manipulated by bankers OR free-spending politicians. But fiat money CAN be – and always will be.

This brings us to the crux of the matter. Still claims that, because the bankers have operated a gigantic monetary scam for hundreds of years, it is time to break their grip over our lives and establish a fair and honest monetary system We could not agree more on that point. But then, in the tradition of Greider and Stinnett, he attempts to lead us to a non-solution. He claims that we should take this power from the bankers and give it to the politicians, because they are chosen by the people and, therefore, can be trusted.

In my view, this is the most naïve concept since Adolph Hitler won the elections in Austria as “the man you can trust.” We must not forget that politicians gave this monopoly to the bankers in the first place. Politicians continue to cooperate with the system in all of its corruption. Politicians derive huge benefits from this system and repeatedly place their careers above the public good. Politicians vote the bills that spend more than comes in from taxes and thereby create that hidden tax called inflation. Politicians write the laws that take away our liberty in the name of fighting terrorism or crime or drugs. It is the height of folly to design a plan of monetary reform based on the assumed wisdom and incorruptibility of politicians.

If this morning we were to give politicians the right to create money out of nothing, by noon they would be swarmed by lobbyists from the banking industry, and by nightfall, most of them would have sold their souls. Nothing would change except appearances. The only solution that the power brokers fear is a system that does not allow bankers OR politicians to manipulate the money supply – and the only system that prevents that is one based on something of tangible value, something that, itself, cannot be created out of nothing. The only way to remove the temptation from both bankers AND politicians is to restrain them with a money system that is backed 100% by precious metal. Period! And all the half-truths about Talley Sticks and Greenbacks and Ben Franklin quotes cannot change that.

Incidentally, in 2005, Liberty International Entertainment released a made-for-TV documentary that echoed this same call for a new American fiat money to be issued by the government. That’s not surprising inasmuch as Bill Still was one of the writers and also appeared as an on-camera expert. The program included a segment devoted to Hewey Long in which he passionately advocates the classic Marxist nostrum of redistribution of wealth as a solution to the ills of society – and no one challenged it. Lincoln’s issuance of fiat money, called Greenbacks in violation of the Constitution, once again was presented as an act of statesmanship. There were numerous other flaws that seriously marred this otherwise excellent production, including the acceptance of the myth that JFK was assassinated because he opposed the international bankers. (For an analysis of this myth, go to http://www.freedom-force.org/freedomcon ... age=issues.) If someone wanted to derail a movement for true monetary reform, they could not do better than to promote myths like this coupled with the ultimate non-solution called fiat money.

It is not my intent to attack Bill Still as a person. I have met him on several occasions and, although we are at opposite poles regarding our view of fiat money, I consider him to be well informed and sincere. Nor do I have any desire to become embroiled in endless debate on this topic. The publications and recordings listed below present just about everything I have to say on the topic. If I haven’t made my case by now, it is unlikely that further verbiage would help. My purpose in preparing this analysis is simply to accommodate those who have contacted me and wanted to know my opinion of these documentaries. My short answer is this: Fiat money is the problem, not the solution.

[Col. Flagg]

The 'Federal Reserve' is not federal and there are no reserves. It is a private banking cartel involved with 11 other regional banks in the U.S. which hijacked the U.S. monetary system in 1913 with its stooge, Woodrow Wilson, passing the 'Federal Reserve Act'. These private banksters from England had been trying to figure out a way to usurp control over the U.S. money system and finally achieved their objective in 1913. They simply wanted to be able to profit from the people of the nation, which they managed to do with the creation of the individual income tax after the creation of the illegal and Gestapo-like IRS. This institution is criminal, illegal and unconstitutional, period, and ponzi schemes are their modus operandi as they print money out of thin air and then loan it to our 'government' at interest. So they're profiting from interest on the money we use and the individual income tax, every penny of which, by the way, goes to paying the interest they're collecting from the 'privelege' of using their fiat paper. Unreal.

[Original_Intent]

That is funny, because I have always felt that "Money Masters" was excellent for its history but draws a completely wrong and haywire conclusion. Same goes for the "Money as Debt" both 1 and 2 - great explanation of how we got where we are, and terrible conclusions/solutions offered. I am glad to know I have Mr. Griffin as company in that viewpoint!

[Jason]

My short answer is this: Fiat money is the problem, not the solution.

Except that isn't the problem as has been proven many times now through history. Wickedness is the problem and righteousness is the solution.

You can do 100% gold....or 100% silver....or 100% sea shells.....or 100% plastic......or whatever floats your government's boat for currency (otherwise its just barter with no government intervention/support/enforcement/etc.). It won't solve the problem! Righteousness is the only viable real solution!

...and once you have a righteous people with a righteous government....all kinds of currency options become viable!

[ithink]

So does reading a some select books qualify you to make those statements, ithink? Get real.

All those really seem to do is educate you on how to better articulate an insult. I'm sure if makes you feel better about yourself as well.

That's not fair anyways. Many economists agree with the Gold standard. I don't know, but I'm assuming they make more money than yourself in the private business sector, if that has any merit. Many of these economist write books denouncing the system you hail.

I know many people who claim who be "scholars" of the bible. They do know more about the bible than me. I will admit that. It still doesn't qualify them to understand the true gospel. Just something to consider next time you make comment along the lines of your last post.

If you wish to direct my personal education to comply with your standards, then go ahead and private message me.

I've been studying monetary policy for 11 years. I've had retired economics professors mad at me, but unable to do anything but admit I am right. Ditto for and former member of the board at the the Bank of Montreal. And if it must come down to it, no, a youtube video is no match for the reading I have done. Money masters, money as debt, these are good starters, but what got them all started, including Skousen's Naked Capitalist, was Trajedy and Hope. Pick up a copy, if you can, and read it, if you dare. Where I live it's hard to get ahold of. You go figure out as to why.

And as for the system I advocate? Where do I advocate anything except the abolition of compound interest?

And if you think the money one earns has anything to do with anything good, which you insinuate, then I will tell you that more money does nothing except darken the glass you look through, and it's double as dark if you didn't earn it yourself.

[ithink]

...In my view, this is the most naïve concept since Adolph Hitler won the elections in Austria as “the man you can trust.” ... (Griffin)

So Griffin says don't trust a politician, so we are to trust him instead? This is exactly the kind of hero worship I'm talking about. And is that really his answer? Yes it is. Because history does not support his position that gold will not crush the economy, and if fact a gold system will be hung out to dry faster than fiat simply because it is not flexible. Not only that, but it seems that he stands outside the constitution on that one, because your constitution puts the money and credit issue in the hands of congress! If you don't like it -- too bad!

You all agree that yak dung can be money, but you insist on mining gold out of the ground instead, and in doing so hand control of the money to the miner instead of the yak farmer, the wheat farmer, or even the schoolteacher, and so on. Go sit under a shady tree by yourself and think it through. Compound interest will destroy any system, gold or not. That is just a self evident truth which escapes most people most of the time because that is what you are trained to think, and I'm sorry, but Griffin and Paul are part of it. Go watch Money Masters again and fast forward to the spot where Still went to meet a "Congressman" for an interview. You'll note he was never there when he was appointed to be. I can only assume that would have been Paul, and it is something to think about that he did not want to appear on Still's documentary.

[ithink]

The 'Federal Reserve' is not federal and there are no reserves. It is a private banking cartel involved with 11 other regional banks in the U.S. which hijacked the U.S. monetary system in 1913 with its stooge, Woodrow Wilson, passing the 'Federal Reserve Act'. These private banksters from England had been trying to figure out a way to usurp control over the U.S. money system and finally achieved their objective in 1913. They simply wanted to be able to profit from the people of the nation, which they managed to do with the creation of the individual income tax after the creation of the illegal and Gestapo-like IRS. This institution is criminal, illegal and unconstitutional, period, and ponzi schemes are their modus operandi as they print money out of thin air and then loan it to our 'government' at interest. So they're profiting from interest on the money we use and the individual income tax, every penny of which, by the way, goes to paying the interest they're collecting from the 'privelege' of using their fiat paper. Unreal.

Yes, and if you wish, change the standard from paper to gold, change the words in the previous quote from fiat to gold, and then what has changed? Nothing. You're still getting banged, and you still deny it is the real problem.

[ithink]

That is funny, because I have always felt that "Money Masters" was excellent for its history but draws a completely wrong and haywire conclusion. Same goes for the "Money as Debt" both 1 and 2 - great explanation of how we got where we are, and terrible conclusions/solutions offered. I am glad to know I have Mr. Griffin as company in that viewpoint!

As long as you think you are right because your camp is shared by [insert name here], you will never get to the truth.

[ithink]

My short answer is this: Fiat money is the problem, not the solution.

Except that isn't the problem as has been proven many times now through history. Wickedness is the problem and righteousness is the solution.

You can do 100% gold....or 100% silver....or 100% sea shells.....or 100% plastic......or whatever floats your government's boat for currency (otherwise its just barter with no government intervention/support/enforcement/etc.). It won't solve the problem! Righteousness is the only viable real solution!

...and once you have a righteous people with a righteous government....all kinds of currency options become viable!

Jason has it right. To argue people can't be trusted is like arguing the sky is blue. Everyone knows that. The difference is, to get an honest system, and a paper promise to pay system that at least is fair and flexible, is to be seriously considered, and you can have this system simply by banning compound and simple interest. That would end the megalopoly though, and now you know why you will never hear this said from the mouth of anyone with any power to make it happen.

[Glenn]

I certainly have Austrian leanings when it comes to monetary policy. History, however, shows that hard money is hardly a firm protection against inflation and abuse. There is a fascinating article about inflation and monetary policy during the Late Roman Empire. In short, commodities may make currency debasement and inflation more cumbersome for the ruling class, but it does not serve as a guaranteed form of wealth protection for those being ruled. Just government, a recognized Rule of Law, and transparency are key ingredients as well.. Read and enjoy!

http://mises.org/daily/3663

[ithink]

I certainly have Austrian leanings when it comes to monetary policy. History, however, shows that hard money is hardly a firm protection against inflation and abuse. There is a fascinating article about inflation and monetary policy during the Late Roman Empire. In short, commodities may make currency debasement and inflation more cumbersome for the ruling class, but it does not serve as a guaranteed form of wealth protection for those being ruled. Just government, a recognized Rule of Law, and transparency are key ingredients as well.. Read and enjoy!

http://mises.org/daily/3663

Interesting article, but it doesn't hit at the underlying problem with usury. However, it led me to discover that Usury was forbidden by Roman law, so thank you Glenn. Perhaps that was a key to the longevity of that empire? When did they abandon the prohibition? Anyone know?

If you care to trade reading material, here is something worth looking at as well: http://www.reformation.org/federal-reserve.html

[ithink]

I did some more cursory research. Apparently compound interest (usury) originated in Sumeria, in the land of Ur, where Abrahams father was a high priest. We all know the history of Abraham's father, who returned to his wicked ways after repenting.

Babylon is built on compound interest. Compound interest is not a christian principle: it is devilish. All major religions have opposed it. Nobody opposes debt per se, but CI is forbidden. Well, it was. Until now. Now we love it. What a shame.

[LoveIsTruth]

Excellent post 'moonwhim'! Thank you!

[p51-mustang]

I am convinced that the Fall of Babylon happens as a result of the policies of central banks and thier fraudulent moeny system. I guess that is kinda obvious to most of you, but people that I know dont have a clue about this. Didnt Benson argue for a metal backed currency? Are we somehow smarter and more inspired than him?

[LoveIsTruth]

Are you Amish? If you aren't, then you are grateful for a flexible money supply that can keep up with the productive capacity of the hard working people of the planet. If you don't like it, then get used to an Amish lifestyle, because that is what gold will get you.

Your understanding of monetary system is seriously warped. You don’t want “flexible” money any more than you would want a flexible yard stick, or a flexible pound, or a flexible gallon! Money is a store of value and of labor, when money become “flexible” people get robbed by it! The word for flexible money is plunder and theft!

thank Abraham Lincoln for printing a few greenbacks to save your republic when it was most needed. Let's not overlook the details …

Abraham Lincoln committed a crime, violated his oath of office and the Constitution, he destroyed the Union and created an empire. He imprisoned, thousands of journalist, as well as newspaper editors, supreme court judges and private citizens. He was an all around dictator, who did an enormous damage to the fabric of liberty in this country! The reason he is so praised by the establishment is because they use him to justify their own usurpations and their own trampling of liberty!

So Griffin says don't trust a politician, so we are to trust him instead?

I trust his reasoning and his logic because it makes sense, whereas your rumblings make no sense at all. Griffin uses sound reasoning to support his conclusions, you use the opinion of the enemies of liberty and can produce no sound reasoning to back you up.

Not only that, but it seems that he stands outside the constitution on that one, because your constitution puts the money and credit issue in the hands of congress! If you don't like it -- too bad!

Your understanding of US Constitution is just as flawed as your understanding of monetary systems! The Constitution authorizes the Congress to COIN money i.e. empress out of metal, and NOT to PRINT money. Also the Constitution EXPRESSLY FORBIDS the States to use ANYTHING BUT GOLD and SILVER as tender in payment of debts! Go read it if you have not yet: US Constitution Article I Sections 8 and 10.
Moreover, nowhere in the Constitution is the government granted the authority to establish legal tender, or to prohibit private citizens to produce and transact in private currencies, therefore this power is DENIED to the Federal government under the 10th Amendment, which Jefferson called the keystone of the entire Constitution!

The difference is, to get an honest system, and a paper promise to pay system that at least is fair and flexible, is to be seriously considered, and you can have this system simply by banning compound and simple interest

Yes, forcing the people to pay compound interest on the money created out of nothing is evil, but do you not see that the solution is NOT to outlaw interest, which would violate the Benson Principle (http://www.ldsfreedomforum.com/viewtopi ... 19&t=12347), but to outlaw government force that forced this fraud upon the people via a legal tender law scam. Do you not see, that if government force is removed, fiat dies a very quick death, because it will be rejected by the free market in favor of 100% commodity based, INTEREST FREE, monetary system, — the most honest and stable monetary system known to man!

You all agree that yak dung can be money, but you insist on mining gold out of the ground instead, and in doing so hand control of the money to the miner instead of the yak farmer, the wheat farmer, or even the schoolteacher, and so on.

Yes, we all agree that yak dung can be money, but we do not all agree that yak dung, or paper should be FORCED upon the people by a legal tender law. It is FORCE that caused the problem, and it is FREEDOM,—free competition in currencies,— that solves it magnificently!

Compound interest will destroy any system, gold or not.

Exactly! That’s why free market will choose 100% commodity based, INTEREST FREE, monetary system, because it is the most honest and stable monetary system known to man! (Who likes being plundered anyway?!) Freedom slays BOTH fiat AND interest attached to money creation!

Griffin and Paul are part of it

Griffin and Paul are right, and you are wrong, because your logic is severely lacking!

you still deny it is the real problem

The real problem is government FORCE that enables fiat fraud (with or without compound interest attached to money creation). Remove the force, and both Fiat and interest attached to money creation die by the hand of free market, because people will freely prefer 100% commodity based, interest free monetary system. Because no one likes being plundered, and given choice, people will choose the monetary system that preserves and protects their purchasing power, not robs them!

As long as you think you are right because your camp is shared by [insert name here], you will never get to the truth.

We think we are right because our position makes sound logical sense, and yours does not.

The difference is, to get an honest system, and a paper promise to pay system that at least is fair and flexible, is to be seriously considered, and you can have this system simply by banning compound and simple interest.

Such “paper promise to pay system” will be overwhelmingly rejected by a free market in favor of 100% commodity based, interest free monetary system, — the most honest and stable monetary system known to man. Your “paper promise to pay system” cannot exist on large scale without government force and coercion. And that’s what makes it wrong. As Jefferson said: “It is error that needs the support of government. Truth can stand alone.”

[LoveIsTruth]

Compound interest is not a christian principle

If that is true why did Jesus say: "Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury. ... cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness" Matthew 25:27-30.

[LoveIsTruth]

I certainly have Austrian leanings when it comes to monetary policy. History, however, shows that hard money is hardly a firm protection against inflation and abuse. There is a fascinating article about inflation and monetary policy during the Late Roman Empire. In short, commodities may make currency debasement and inflation more cumbersome for the ruling class, but it does not serve as a guaranteed form of wealth protection for those being ruled. Just government, a recognized Rule of Law, and transparency are key ingredients as well.. Read and enjoy!

http://mises.org/daily/3663

Free competition in currencies insures currencies’ quality via the mechanism of free market. Absent government force, if company X dilutes it’s gold or silver, its currency will be rejected on the free market as substandard, exactly the same as free market does to computers, shoes, and cars. Low quality is rejected, and the company that does it goes bankrupt! Freedom is magnificent!

[ithink]

The only reason I have directed you to the literature is because you cannot stand sound reasoning. I had thought you might be able to, but I don't think you can now. You accuse me of things I don't believe, you don't answer the question that is posed, and then you fall into your pattern of zeal, with a fist in the air and a shout of hallelujah for gold. Your love of mises and paul has your thinking backward to the point you now denegrate Lincoln. Whatever you think of him, he did save your republic, and he did it by printing constitutional money called United States Bank Notes.

You don't even understand money. You think when I say "flexible money", you think I mean "flexible value". That is not what is meant. The fact that you do not understand that is laughable.

You next launch into an explanation of how you trust Griffin, right after I explain why I do not. But we're not talking about trust. We're talking about worship, which would more aptly describe how you talk about him.

You just told us you don't trust people, so you need an honest money system -- gold. But now you tell us only the government can coin money? If it's honest, why rely on the government? And if the government is doing it, does that mean you cannot?

Now about coining money. The exact phrase is (section 8 ): "To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;". Notice that coin is not capitalized. Next (section 10) we read: "make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts;" Notice that Coin is now capitalized right after it repeats "coin Money", where "Money" is capitalized. The coin in "coin money" is a verb, meaning "to make", and it "usually" (Websters) refers to stamping coins, but not always, and literally means "to make up", according to several online dictionaries, and even means "counterfeit" in the British vernnacular. In the second instance, it is a noun, referring directly to the coins themselves. Thanks for the hornswoggling Mr. Griffin, but it isn't working on me. Notice the prohibition on making any "money" to pay debts is to the states, where they could use gold and silver if they wish, fairly even as you say, but actually no such prohibition is upon congress. We know this because if the Constitution was specific enough to mention "gold and silver" in Section 10, why not slip that in Section 8 as well? The answer as to why they did not has just been given to you. In short, section 10 is to prevent the states from starting their own money systems.

Outlawing compound interest does not violate the "Benson" principle, which isn't his own but actually belongs to Bastiat, whom he read and quoted extensively. Brother, compound interest is outlawed by God, so to say it's a bad law is ridiculous. I say we follow God's lead.

You keep forcing words in my mouth. You say I am in favor of legal tender laws. I never said I was. You say people will choose gold over paper. Really? I say they will choose whatever they must pay their taxes with. No other laws will be required. And your own church refuses payment in kind, including gold, and requires you to pay tithing with paper FRN's!! That is a defacto legal tender law. But I have said nothing on this subject at all, so why do you keep pinning it on me?

The rest of your post is just more cheer-leading for gold.

Now go print off these graphs: http://www.reformation.org/federal-reserve.html

Find a shady tree to sit under, and stare at them for a few hours until it sinks in. I doubt it will, but you can try.

[Jason]

I certainly have Austrian leanings when it comes to monetary policy. History, however, shows that hard money is hardly a firm protection against inflation and abuse. There is a fascinating article about inflation and monetary policy during the Late Roman Empire. In short, commodities may make currency debasement and inflation more cumbersome for the ruling class, but it does not serve as a guaranteed form of wealth protection for those being ruled. Just government, a recognized Rule of Law, and transparency are key ingredients as well.. Read and enjoy!

http://mises.org/daily/3663

Free competition in currencies insures currencies’ quality via the mechanism of free market. Absent government force, if company X dilutes it’s gold or silver, its currency will be rejected on the free market as substandard, exactly the same as free market does to computers, shoes, and cars. Low quality is rejected, and the company that does it goes bankrupt! Freedom is magnificent!

Ahh so you would completely eradicate exchange rates as long as the other countries have same gold denominated currency??? And the country sitting on the largest gold/silver deposits then buys up the world???

Then with that enmity I will take the treasure of the earth, and with gold and silver I will buy up armies and navies, Popes and false priests who oppress, and tyrants who destroy, and reign with blood and horror on the earth!

[LoveIsTruth]

The only reason I have directed you to the literature is because you cannot stand sound reasoning.

I am very careful to address each and every point you make. All I was saying, that if you are incapable of stating your position logically without referring me to read a few books, you probably do not understand your own position.

You accuse me of things I don't believe, you don't answer the question that is posed,

Please give examples of things you don’t believe that I accuse you of. Also, please restate the question that I have not answered, because I thought I was very careful to answer each and every one. But I will gladly do it again if that helps.

and then you fall into your pattern of zeal, with a fist in the air and a shout of hallelujah for gold.

I shout hallelujah to Freedom. And I point out that people should be free to transact in gold, silver and anything else they choose. I also made the point, that given free competition in currencies, absent government coercion and force, unbacked paper systems will largely disappear, because they will be rejected by the free market in favor of more honest and more stable systems, such as 100% commodity based, interest free system, — the most honest and stable monetary system known to man.

Your love of mises and paul has your thinking backward to the point you now denegrate Lincoln.

My love of Mises and Paul, and my dislike of Lincoln’s policies spring from my understanding, respect and love for the fundamental principles of Liberty, which you apparently do not comprehend yet.

Whatever you think of him [Lincoln], he did save your republic, and he did it by printing constitutional money called United States Bank Notes.

He destroyed the Republic and created an empire. It is the difference between love and rape. As for your understanding of the Constitution, I already pointed out that it is woefully lacking, just as your understanding of sound money. US Constitution, allows the States to deal in nothing but gold and silver. Therefore if the federal government makes anything but gold and silver to be money and forces the States to use it, it VIOLATES the Constitution. (US Constitution Article I Section 10).

You don't even understand money. You think when I say "flexible money", you think I mean "flexible value". That is not what is meant. The fact that you do not understand that is laughable.

When money is conjured out of nothing its value can’t help but to become “flexible.” History teaches that with the voice of thunder.

But even if money expansion was precisely made equal to the growth of the economy, it would still be plunder and fraud. Because he who issues such money (the government) would become the OWNER of the increase in the economy, which would inevitably lead to inordinate growth of government and stagnation of private sector, which would end in complete destruction of liberty and of the society itself! This is not surprising, because unbacked fiat money break the link between production and consumption, and allow him who issues it to consume without producing, or in other words to get SOMETHING for NOTHING, which is a definition of fraud. And any society built on fraud must unavoidably self-destruct.

If one wants to write an IOU he is welcome to do so provided there is one willing to accept it, but neither party has the moral right to force a third party to accept this IOU as money, nor can they delegate that power to the government to force the third party for them, for that would violate the Benson Principle (http://www.ldsfreedomforum.com/viewtopi ... 19&t=12347) .

You next launch into an explanation of how you trust Griffin, right after I explain why I do not. But we're not talking about trust. We're talking about worship, which would more aptly describe how you talk about him.

The only thing I worship is the Truth. Griffin happens to understand much more truth about money than you do at this point.

But now you tell us only the government can coin money?

I never said that! In fact, I said the opposite! EVERYONE should be able to coin money! Then the government will not be able to defraud the people because free market will force them to be honest or have their currency rejected.

If it's honest, why rely on the government?

No need to rely on them, only inasmuch as they are being honest and deliver a stable product (a currency).

And if the government is doing it, does that mean you cannot?

Absolutely NOT! The Constitution gave no authority to the government to forbid the operation of private mints and private currencies, nor to establish an exclusive currency that all are forced to use. And since no such power was granted, it is forbidden them under the 10th Amendment.

The coin in "coin money" is a verb, meaning "to make", and it "usually" (Websters) refers to stamping coins, but not always,

The only important interpretation is the one the Founders had at the time of adoption of the Constitution. Their intent is crystal clear as the States are explicitely forbidden to deal in anything except GOLD and SILVER! I assure you that the word print was found in their dictionary, but they chose the word COIN because they meant what they said: “No State shall … make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts” (US Constitution Article I, Section 10).

Notice the prohibition on making any "money" to pay debts is to the states, where they could use gold and silver if they wish, fairly even as you say, but actually no such prohibition is upon congress. … In short, section 10 is to prevent the states from starting their own money systems.

Since Section 10 forbids the States to coin money, and Section 8 grants it to the Congress and since the States would be violating the Constitution if they were using anything but GOLD and SILVER as money (Section 10 again). Is it not obvious that Congress is to coin GOLD and SILVER money for the States to use? What use is Congress’ money if the States CANNOT use it according to the Constitution?

Outlawing compound interest does not violate the "Benson" principle

Really? Do you have a moral right to force your neighbor at the point of a gun, not to charge interest on the loan and conditions he freely agreed with another? No! Therefore you cannot delegate such authority to your government! Because you cannot delegate an authority you do not have!

Brother, compound interest is outlawed by God,

It was outlawed among Israelites as an extra form of charity to the poor. But it is not outlawed in general. If it was, why would Jesus say: "Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury. " (Matthew 25:27-30). Is Jesus an immoral man, or is he a law breaker? No! He is Righteousness itself!

I say we follow God's lead.

Fine, if you wish to be charitable to your brothers and sisters and loan to them without usury you are welcome to do so, and you will be blessed for it. But you have no moral right to FORCE your neighbor not to loan on usury! Hence, you cannot delegate such authority to your government. Which is the Benson Principle.

You say I am in favor of legal tender laws. I never said I was.

Fiat unbacked money are quite worthless without government force. And do you think in a truly free market a third party will accept IOU’s issued between two other unrelated to him parties as money? I don’t think so. And even if he is foolish enough to do so, majority will prefer 100% commodity based, interest free money, because it is the most honest and the most stable monetary system known to man!

You say people will choose gold over paper. Really? I say they will choose whatever they must pay their taxes with. No other laws will be required.

They will choose whatever will preserve their purchasing power. And that ain’t gonna be unbacked fiat paper that constantly looses its purchasing power. 97% of FRN’s purchasing power has been stolen since 1913.

And your own church refuses payment in kind, including gold, and requires you to pay tithing with paper FRN's!! That is a defacto legal tender law.

FRN’s are not “defacto” legal tender, but literally legal tender in the US. Church did not see fit to fight this battle, because it has more important battles to fight. Neither does it get into political issues, but encourages us and VERY vigorously at that, to actively participate in political process. You are not to be commanded in all things! You must act on your own, without the Church commanding you in all things.

The rest of your post is just more cheer-leading for gold.

My cheer-leading is for liberty and honesty in monetary system, without which liberty is impossible. Free competition in currencies, and resulting free preference of 100% commodity based monetary system by the people, is the best way to accomplish it. Freedom works!

[LoveIsTruth]

Ahh so you would completely eradicate exchange rates as long as the other countries have same gold denominated currency???

You can have any exchange rate you like as long as the parties are free to participate or not to participate. If gold is the currency, exchange rate is quite simple: 1 to 1 as far as weight and purity is concerned.

And the country sitting on the largest gold/silver deposits then buys up the world???

Whatever the country is “sitting on” is theirs, just as what you are sitting on is yours. You can use anything you like as money. All I am saying, that given freedom and free competition in currencies, gold and silver will probably be most preferred over the long run. But whatever is preferred, people must be free to make that choice, because ONLY when free competition in currencies exists, the government can be held in check against robbing the people through legalized counterfeiting and inflation.

I will take the treasure of the earth, and with gold and silver I will buy up armies and navies, Popes and false priests who oppress, and tyrants who destroy, and reign with blood and horror on the earth!

I assure you that there is much more blood and horror and tyranny on the earth because of fiat paper than because of gold. If it was not so, why do you think the world is awash in fiat currencies now, when you and I agree that banksters seized the control of governments so long ago? Because paper allows them to rob the people so much the easier! In fact none of the world wars would have been even possible without fiat paper, because it was impossible for the respective governments to tax their people directly for the war without people rebelling against it; so they confiscated people’s property through a much slyer and stealthier way,—legalized counterfeiting and inflation! Massive depreciation of paper currencies during the war is the testament to enormous wealth confiscated by governments from the people through the medium of fiat paper money inflation.

[Shimdidly]

Freedom is the key here. The natural forces of free enterprise competition are enough on their own to prevent even monopolies, competition produces excellence, and therefore defeats monopolies that have lost incentive for excellence. There are still certain aspects of our society and economy that are free and true capitalism (capital ownership by private individuals), and man do they excell! Cartels/monopolies only work with government assisted force. We see this in our currency, oil, the auto industry, and a number of other things. Any technology/market that could liberate mankind is going to be destroyed by government backed interests. "Honest Abe" destroyed the republic and the freedom that produced so much wealth it changed the world. Since the civil war, the establishment has brainwashed us that we're free. We have been slaves for a long time and it's time for those that remember the founding father's warnings to stand up and save our constitution.