Abolish the Fed? Romney: "NO."

[Original_Intent]

The Lord has not set perfection as the standard of who we should support in our leaders. He has set as a standard that they be good and wise men who show understanding and support of the Constitution. Mitt Romney has failed to do so and that is the end of the matter as far as I am concerned.

In the last election cycle I would have loved to support Mitt Romney. Even knowing some of the positions he had held in the past, I kept looking for some glimmer that he met these qualifications. When asked if as president if he could unilaterally declare war he said that he would need to consult with his attorneys. He "followed the crowd" in enthusiastically supporting undeclared wars. His reasoning for abandoning his position on abortion lacked any credibility and was clearly a politically driven rather than a heartfelt decision. You will accuse me of judging another man's heart, do you even know the reason he gave for changing his mind on abortion? Is it a credible reason for such a sudden change of opinion, or was it a fig leaf excuse which thankfully for him nobody in the media questioned?

I do not know that he is a gadianton, Mitt may very well be where Glenn Beck was a couple of years ago - well intentioned but clueless, and in his lack of understanding doing more harm than good. It appears that Glen Beck is undergoing a miraculous transformation and Mitt may do the same. But unlike Glenn, in Mitt I have seen no sign of an awakening, no fruits to signify that I would not be under condemnation for supporting him.

You asked for evidence that he was an ldg - I admit that I have none. Now I ask you for evidence that he meets the Lord's qualifications - good and wise, a sound understanding of and willingness to support the Constitution.

[give_me_liberty]

OK then, my opinion is; I'll never have to vote for my Savior in any capacity, but I will always sustain him. And, in my opinion, as an example, you guys would not have sustained Alma the Younger as Prophet of the true Church! Why? because you haven't yet learned how to forgive!

Whether we have forgiven him of his mistakes has little to do with voting for him if he is continuing to make most of those same mistakes. As an example, forgiving a neighbor for robbing our house, even if they haven't yet repented, is right, but that doesn't mean we should trust him with a key to our house! Again, if/when I see penitence from Romney, at that point I will consider voting for him. Until then, I will stick with what has been asked for in the scriptures and by the prophets as posted above.

If you have seen evidence that he has indeed repented and fulfills these scriptures, I echo O.I.'s request that you enlighten us so that we know he is a candidate we can vote for in good conscience. So far though, my searches for this haven't turned up anything. The very name of this thread and the link in the first post, in my opinion, is an example of why we shouldn't vote for him.

On your example about Alma the Younger, he showed repentance and penitence. As far as I know, Romney has not. Additionally, Alma the Elder "conferred the office upon him" (Mos 29:42) which would be an additional evidence for me that he had truly repented and was worthy of the office, and therefore I would have sustained him. I think most or all others on the forum would agree.

Now perhaps your better than me (I'm not making that judgement), closer to perfection, nearer the veil, understand more, are better educated, more scripturally in tune, I don't know, but I know I don't like many of your political ideas! I consider them very dangerous!

Here is my opinion: Voting for who we think is the best for the job is not dangerous at all. Voting for someone who may take us further down the road we are on right now probably is. Of course, I could also be wrong, and maybe Romney would do well and help take us in the right direction. Maybe you have seen some things about him that the rest of us haven't and we are wrong about him. If so, once again, please post a few of these so that we can vote for the best candidate out there. If not, then I feel that you are giving the robber the key to your house under the reasoning that you are forgiving him and praying that he will change. Personally I prefer forgiving and praying, but keeping my key.

[Mahonri]

And, in my opinion, as an example, you guys would not have sustained Alma the Younger as Prophet of the true Church! Why? because you haven't yet learned how to forgive!

no need to yell. Based on your logic though, I contend you would have voted for King Noah. He was the only one with a chance to win, and you would have insisted that we forgive him. He was the local (or higher) Priesthood leader, so you would have also supported the burning of Abinidi as an apostate.

Several times I have ask you guys for proof that Romney is an ldg! All I get from you are facts that show he's a bit more liberal than I am.

Maybe we cannot "prove" to your satisfaction these things, but I think it is beyond dispute that he fails the D&C 98 candidate standards. You have never addressed that.

[durangout]

I'm just picking a number out of thin air and going to say that it would take at least 10 election cycles or 40 years of people voting their concience before there was enough trraction for a 3rd party candidate to even have a slight chance of winning.

That's because "we the people" have been brainwashed that a 3rd party can't win and have put off voting our conscience for the past 10 election cycles and more because of that brainwashing.

I completely agree. As George Washington said the 2 party system would be the ruin of the country.

[lundbaek]

It appears to me that in future there has got be an awakening among at least the American members of the Church to our responsibility to learn, espouse, and support the original principles of the US Constitution. We need to become dedicated to our Constitution in the tradition of our founding fathers.

If I had not lived and worked about 8 years of my adult life (21 & over) in Masssachusetts and participated in the political arena there, and if I had not checked out Mitt Romney's record going backwards and forwards from 2002, I would have hoped that he might be a "closet" constitutionalist, who, if he won the presidency, would abide by the principles of the Constitution and insist that Congress and the Supreme Court do likewise. As a candidate for the presidency of the US he had excellent opportunities to promote constitutional principles just as Ron Paul and later Chuck Baldwin did. I think if he had, he could and would have awakened many members of the Church as well as others to our responsibility to learn, espouse, and support the original principles of the US Constitution. Instead, around here in Arizona, at least, he has gone a long way toward promoting the campaign of a senator who many consider a traitor to the United States and its Constitution. It's heartbreaking to note the many members of the Church here who support a constitution shredder and globalist because Romeny has endorsed him so strongly.

[Quiet Cricket]

I'm just picking a number out of thin air and going to say that it would take at least 10 election cycles or 40 years of people voting their concience before there was enough trraction for a 3rd party candidate to even have a slight chance of winning.

Too bad people didn't start voting their conscience in 1970.

Additionally, Alma the Elder "conferred the office upon him" (Mos 29:42) which would be an additional evidence for me that he had truly repented and was worthy of the office, and therefore I would have sustained him.

What if for some reason Romney was called as a Seventy? I bet there are plenty of Seventies out there with very wrong political views. I don't know if Romney is a bad person. Maybe he is just wrong. He could be very educated in business, but ironically ignorant in the principles of good government. Maybe he's just listening to advisers who "know how to get elected". Maybe he was stake president because he was a good administrator and kept the commandments sufficiently, but not because of his vast knowledge of the scriptures. I base this on a video I saw where Romney didn't know that "out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem." (Isa. 2:3) He stumbled all over it in an interview and didn't know if the law came from Zion or Jerusalem. Shouldn't this scripture be second nature to such a genius in the church? My point is, maybe he's a normal church member with great administrative skills. Meaning he is still a good person, but only great in his specialty.

However, he may lust after money and power. I do not know.

[InfoWarrior82]

I wonder how many good Latter-Day-Saints voted for Harry Reid just because he was a member? (like Bob would have done as he has already illustrated). Did they research for themselves what he was all about, or did they just "trust the Lord"?

Bob, I consider your posts to be very enlightening and showing great knowledge and wisdom, but I am severely disappointed in you on this one

[leeuniverse]

Guys, get over it..... The Fed is necessary. We can't go back to the "gold standard" no matter how much you all like it. The world doesn't work that way anymore. Romney knows exactly what he's doing, you all don't when it comes to financial matters. Yes, things can be adjusted and fixed, but the Fed is simply necessary like it or not. He's a full conservative otherwise, and the best man for the job.

[leeuniverse]

I wonder how many good Latter-Day-Saints voted for Harry Reid just because he was a member? (like Bob would have done as he has already illustrated). Did they research for themselves what he was all about, or did they just "trust the Lord"?

Bob, I consider your posts to be very enlightening and showing great knowledge and wisdom, but I am severely disappointed in you on this one

I did at first ONCE, but that's because I was new to politics and didn't know, so just made my best guess since he seemed nice and was a mormon (was 10 years ago). But after that, I knew, and never voted for him again. Prior to that I had no idea that there were "liberal" mormons, mormons who were diametrically opposed to what mormonism stood for in ideology. I simply cannot fathom how some mormons think that Socialism/Communism is actually what mormonism teaches.

[Mahonri]

Guys, get over it..... The Fed is necessary. We can't go back to the "gold standard" no matter how much you all like it. The world doesn't work that way anymore. Romney knows exactly what he's doing, you all don't when it comes to financial matters. Yes, things can be adjusted and fixed, but the Fed is simply necessary like it or not. He's a full conservative otherwise, and the best man for the job.

Then change the Constitution. If it is so great, then change the Constitution to allow it.
If a secret, unaccountable body controlling our monetary supply is what is best, it shouldn't be too hard to get done.

However, I think the reason they have not it that way is because it is so clearly evil, that it would never survive the scrutiny needed to pass that type of measure. However without passing it, it is un Constitutional and therefore evil on its face and should be opposed on that measure along.

The Creature from Jekyll Island explains so clearly why the Fed is so wrong for our country, even if we do need (I doubt it) to get off the gold standard.

[Mahonri]

I I simply cannot fathom how some mormons think that Socialism/Communism is actually what mormonism teaches.

yep, both Mitt and Harry fit that category.

[bobhenstra]

I wonder how many good Latter-Day-Saints voted for Harry Reid just because he was a member? (like Bob would have done as he has already illustrated). Did they research for themselves what he was all about, or did they just "trust the Lord"?

Bob, I consider your posts to be very enlightening and showing great knowledge and wisdom, but I am severely disappointed in you on this one

You have a problem with "trusting the Lord?"

I have never voted for Harry Reid, would not have voted for him "if" I had the chance! Neither have I ever voted for Mitt Romney, but the Spirit tells me I can give him a chance!

Some of you folks are fixated on very bad advice!

We sing a song entitled "God Bless America!" Its a prayer set to music like most of our hymns. If God is to answer our prayer when we sing that beautiful song, we Americans must do our part and bow to the will of God, that isn't happening now, the Lord is withdrawing his Spirit from America. It just isn't going to happen, sadly as Americans, The majority of us are past repentance in the flesh, our ears are heavy and cannot hear the warnings, our eyes are shut to the things of the Lord and cannot see (Isaiah 6), now only the cleansing can save America, and our Lord is in charge of that cleansing, its going to happen! Only a tenth will survive the cleansing. 1/10th of three hundred million is 30 million. As Isaiah explains, there's gonna be a lot of empty houses and cities.

We members of the True Church (who can hear, and who can see) are instructed to be prepared in all needful things according to our individual abilities, to be aware of our country's dreadful condition, to warn our neighbor, and if we have done those things, to "not" be afraid!

As for me and my family, we will trust in the Lord!

We are prepared!

Bob

[Mahonri]

Some of you folks are fixated on very bad advice!

bad advice like D&C 98? I will trust the Lord over the supporting of a King Noah.

[iamse7en]

Guys, get over it..... The Fed is necessary. We can't go back to the "gold standard" no matter how much you all like it. The world doesn't work that way anymore.

I suggest you educate yourself on economic principles, the Constitution, and America's economic history. A single post will not convince you, but you should read many books on these subjects to learn the arguments for both sides of the argument. Read Meltdown, End the Fed, the Case Against the Fed, and What Has Government Done to Our Money.

You're right - the Fed IS necessary in order to "fund" the warfare-welfare state. The government simply does not receive enough revenue to pay for all of it, so it must print the money and slowly steal wealth from its citizens. It IS necessary for big government to thrive and to steal the wealth and liberties of its citizens. But to suggest that a nation needs a central counterfeiting station to control and manipulate the supply and price of money is just absurd.

Let me ask you something - do you agree with price controls? Do you think the government should intervene on the price of a commodity or good, because it thinks the price determined by the free market is "too high" or "too low," according to their standards? When gasoline gets "too expensive," should the government put a price ceiling on it like in the 1970's? If you have any common sense and understanding of basic economic principles, then clearly, you will say, NO, price controls distort the market and produce unsustainable consequences. Then, why do you suggest that the government should set interest rates, or the price of borrowing money? What happens when the price of something is higher or lower than its true market level? What happens when price of savings or loanable funds (interest rates) is lower than its true market rate? You guessed it - market distortion, malinvestment, a false signaling to investors of the true supply of savings available for their investment projects. It's the "fatal conceit" of central planners to think they know what the "right" supply of money or interest rate, or any price for that matter, should be for any period of time.

You should also read more about the gold standard and the U.S.'s false impression of a gold standard. You should also learn about free-market money, and remember the principles of economic law regarding dangerous monopolies, free markets, competition, and innovation - then apply it to the market of money. You should also read the constitution (specifically Art 1, Sec 10) and learn why only gold and silver was to be used as legal tender. You should learn about the Fed's interventionism and how its distortions to the market have caused asset bubbles, and the artificial booms and busts that crush the middle class and poor.

There is so much to learn, but I suggest you read up on it. No one article will convince you. It will take several books and many hours of rich education to learn why you are so wrong about central banks and the gold standard. I was once where you were. While majoring in Econ at BYU, I was fed (no pun intended) many falsehoods about central banks and the market of money. I once was a supporter of Mitt Romney. After many hours of self-educating, I have wised up. I hope you will, too.

[leeuniverse]

I I simply cannot fathom how some mormons think that Socialism/Communism is actually what mormonism teaches.

yep, both Mitt and Harry fit that category.

Nope Mitt doesn't.... That's you misinformed negative fantasy, not the actual truth.

And guys, stop confusing the things that should be fixed with the fed with the fed not being necessary.
I understand all your conspiracy theroy's etc., but that's all it is.

[fps.sledge]

I seriously doubt you understand these "conspiracy theories". entire books are written by men who have probably made millions of dollars more than you in the private sector. And for the record, the book of mormon prophecies that conspiracies will exist in these days. But that's ok if you're not aware of that or even considerate of the possibility that you might misunderstand the govt as it is. Thats what this forum is for. For the informed and uninformed.

It isn't about the conclusion all the time as much as it is explaining your thought process. In other words, what leads you to that conclusion? People respect this approach.

[Original_Intent]

Bob, we are all still waiting on your evidence that Mitt Romney qualifies per D&C 98. Good luck with that.

Leeuniverse, it's obvious you have drunk the Kool-Aid on the necessity of the FedRes. Have you done ANY reading on Austrian economics? The Creature from Jekyll Island? ANY of the other books listed above? They do not list things about the Fed that need to be FIXED, they show it to be a cancer upon our society. How much cancer do you want to have?

[InfoWarrior82]

I wonder how many good Latter-Day-Saints voted for Harry Reid just because he was a member? (like Bob would have done as he has already illustrated). Did they research for themselves what he was all about, or did they just "trust the Lord"?

Bob, I consider your posts to be very enlightening and showing great knowledge and wisdom, but I am severely disappointed in you on this one

You have a problem with "trusting the Lord?"

I have never voted for Harry Reid, would not have voted for him "if" I had the chance! Neither have I ever voted for Mitt Romney, but the Spirit tells me I can give him a chance!

Some of you folks are fixated on very bad advice!

We sing a song entitled "God Bless America!" Its a prayer set to music like most of our hymns. If God is to answer our prayer when we sing that beautiful song, we Americans must do our part and bow to the will of God, that isn't happening now, the Lord is withdrawing his Spirit from America. It just isn't going to happen, sadly as Americans, The majority of us are past repentance in the flesh, our ears are heavy and cannot hear the warnings, our eyes are shut to the things of the Lord and cannot see (Isaiah 6), now only the cleansing can save America, and our Lord is in charge of that cleansing, its going to happen! Only a tenth will survive the cleansing. 1/10th of three hundred million is 30 million. As Isaiah explains, there's gonna be a lot of empty houses and cities.

We members of the True Church (who can hear, and who can see) are instructed to be prepared in all needful things according to our individual abilities, to be aware of our country's dreadful condition, to warn our neighbor, and if we have done those things, to "not" be afraid!

As for me and my family, we will trust in the Lord!

We are prepared!

Bob

Bob, that's like trusting the Lord to take care of you instead of getting your own food storage. The Lord has already commanded us to do our own research. Annnnnnnd research shows that Romney is no different than McCain or Bush.

[give_me_liberty]

And guys, stop confusing the things that should be fixed with the fed with the fed not being necessary.
I understand all your conspiracy theroy's etc., but that's all it is.

EVERYTHING about the Fed needs to be fixed, therefore abolishing it is the best choice. You might as well be telling us to stop confusing what is wrong with theft with theft not being necessary, and in fact that is exactly what the Fed is...theft. There is no way to create money from nothing without stealing it from the people through inflation. This is all the Fed does.
Here are a few examples of how inflation robs us, source for info: http://www.thepeoplehistory.com/70years ... hange.html

The average wages in 1930 were around $1,970. Today they are about $40,523. Our wages have multiplied by roughly 20.5. Lets look at the costs of a loaf of bread. In 1930 they were around 9 cents. Today they are $2.79. The price of bread has multiplied by 31, while our wages have only gone up by around 20 times. We need to work 1.5 times longer to buy the same loaf of bread. A new home has gone from $3,845 to $238,880, multiplying by about 62. We work 3 times longer to buy a house now than in 1930 (not including interest). Check other products from other websites and sources, you will usually find similar results. This is not conspiracy theory, this is fact. The Fed has created a highly unstable monetary system which robs the people by creating money from nothing. This is worse than "unnecessary", it is ruining our economy.

With a non-fiat money system, new money can only be produced by labor. Inflation does not occur with the push of a button. It requires hours of labor to produce this money, and the money is exchanged for products that required about the same amount of labor. The law of supply and demand keeps materials balanced. For example, if the majority of people suddenly decide to produce "money" (gold, food, whatever it is) then there will be a large abundance of that material, and less of other materials. It will require more "money" to buy other things, actually becoming temporarily similar to a fiat money system. The difference is this: In this situation, people producing "money" will see that they are working just as hard as others for less, and many of them will change careers. Therefore, the system naturally rebalances through supply and demand.

Currently, under a fiat system, money that required no labor to produce is exchanged for goods that do require labor. Why would anyone trade their labor for nothing? Because our government has declared it to be "legal tender" and we have no choice but to accept it as currency. The law of supply and demand is forced to be ignored, causing this instability and lack of rebalancing.

If you want more information and examples, I recommend you read The Creature From Jekyll Island along with the other books that have been recommended above.

[Amore Vero]

[You have a problem with "trusting the Lord?"

All the world could trust in the Lord & pray 24/7 & it would do nothing if we continue to allow ourselves to be deceived to put men into office who are not good, honest or wise. The Lord is bound & can't bless & protect us if we don't repent & support truely 'worthy & righteous' leaders.

I believe Romney & Obama are on the same team, behind the curtain.

[armedtotheteeth]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9IJUkYUbvI

I always liked this vid: "the real Romney"

I am sure a lot of you have seen it, but its worth the reminder.

I know a man can change, BUT, politicians rarely do.

Maybe someone can embed the vid. I have not look how to do it yet.

[bobhenstra]

I wonder how many good Latter-Day-Saints voted for Harry Reid just because he was a member? (like Bob would have done as he has already illustrated). Did they research for themselves what he was all about, or did they just "trust the Lord"?

Bob, I consider your posts to be very enlightening and showing great knowledge and wisdom, but I am severely disappointed in you on this one

You have a problem with "trusting the Lord?"

I have never voted for Harry Reid, would not have voted for him "if" I had the chance! Neither have I ever voted for Mitt Romney, but the Spirit tells me I can give him a chance!

Some of you folks are fixated on very bad advice!

We sing a song entitled "God Bless America!" Its a prayer set to music like most of our hymns. If God is to answer our prayer when we sing that beautiful song, we Americans must do our part and bow to the will of God, that isn't happening now, the Lord is withdrawing his Spirit from America. It just isn't going to happen, sadly as Americans, The majority of us are past repentance in the flesh, our ears are heavy and cannot hear the warnings, our eyes are shut to the things of the Lord and cannot see (Isaiah 6), now only the cleansing can save America, and our Lord is in charge of that cleansing, its going to happen! Only a tenth will survive the cleansing. 1/10th of three hundred million is 30 million. As Isaiah explains, there's gonna be a lot of empty houses and cities.

We members of the True Church (who can hear, and who can see) are instructed to be prepared in all needful things according to our individual abilities, to be aware of our country's dreadful condition, to warn our neighbor, and if we have done those things, to "not" be afraid!

As for me and my family, we will trust in the Lord!

We are prepared!

Bob

Bob, that's like trusting the Lord to take care of you instead of getting your own food storage. The Lord has already commanded us to do our own research. Annnnnnnd research shows that Romney is no different than McCain or Bush.

I am prepared, I have my years supply of food and every needful thing, I study the scriptures with the aid of the Spirit. I have done and continue to do theses thing "because" I trust the Lord.

You accusation that I worship King Noah is attacking me personally, against the rules of this site, and is well below the position of moderator here.

The Prophet Abinadi is my hero! However, 'if" the time comes for "me" to forgive King Noah, I will do so. Just as the Lord forgave the penitent King Lamoni and his people for their many murders.

I have no disagreement with what the D&C says about picking good men for office. What I have disagreement with is how you guys "judge" who is qualified and "who isn't" based on your own private interpretation of D&C 98. Its simple, I don't agree with your interpretations of the requisite scripture, nor the way you judge your fellow man.

With the possible exception of you guys , there are no perfect people on this earth, "I" include politicians, along with you, and of course "me"! Therefore, I base my opinions and understanding of what the D&C instructs "with" their repentance in mind, and my forgiveness of their "perceived" ill advised actions. And how do I know they are penitent, I ask my Heavenly Father, and he answers me with the Spirit.

All I can say is, if you don't like my approach "thats just tough" Doesn't concern me at all. In my view I'll continue to support the penitent individual! "You" guys support who you will, and we'll see you after the cleansing!



Bob

[InfoWarrior82]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9IJUkYUbvI

I always liked this vid: "the real Romney"

I am sure a lot of you have seen it, but its worth the reminder.

I know a man can change, BUT, politicians rarely do.

Maybe someone can embed the vid. I have not look how to do it yet.

Great video & post. I remember seeing this video before I "woke up" and smelled something fishy with this guy.

[InfoWarrior82]

I am prepared, I have my years supply of food and every needful thing, I study the scriptures with the aid of the Spirit. I have done and continue to do theses thing "because" I trust the Lord.

You accusation that I worship King Noah is attacking me personally, against the rules of this site, and is well below the position of moderator here.

The Prophet Abinadi is my hero! However, 'if" the time comes for "me" to forgive King Noah, I will do so. Just as the Lord forgave King Lamoni and his people for their many murders.

I have no disagreement with what the D&C says about picking good men for office. What I have disagreement with is how you guys "judge" who is qualified and "who isn't" based on your own private interpretation of D&C 98. Its simple, I don't agree with your interpretations of scripture, nor the way you judge your fellow man.

With the possible exception of you guys , there are no perfect people on this earth, "I" include politicians, along with you, and of course "me"! Therefore, I base my opinions and understanding of what the D&C instructs "with" their repentance in mind, and my forgiveness of their "perceived" ill advised actions. And how do I know they are penitent, I ask my Heavenly Father, and he answers me with the Spirit.

All I can say is, if you don't like my approach "thats just tough" Doesn't concern me at all. In my view I'll continue to support the penitent individual! "You" guys support who you will, and we'll see you after the cleansing!



Bob

First of all, I never accused you of "worshipping King Noah", but I am confused because you have not provided any reasons as to why you would vote for Mitt Romney. So far it has just been that you "trust the Lord". (Nothing wrong with that, but we sure need to do a little bit more than just that ) I also have nothing wrong with forgiving a person for honest repentance, but so far, I haven't seen anything of the sort by Romney.

[lundbaek]

Is there any evidence that Mitt Romney is truly dedicated to the Constitution in the tradition of our founding fathers, that he understands and would adhere to constitutional principles? There is certainly evidence to the contrary.