Fed judge to decide constitutionality of gay marriage today

[KOMYU]

KOMYU wrote:
Amore you have never been asked to live it, therefore you like the rest of us know nothing of it's spirituality and the blessings associated with it.

Amore wrote:
You don't know what I have been asked to live with or what I know. But one things for sure, Heavenly Father will tell anyone on earth all they want to know about polygamy & when it's an abomination & when it's a righteous thing & how it's supposed to be lived & why the Lord would ask it & the sacrifices, torments & blessings associated with it. I suggest you ask him for further light & knowledge on the subject. He will tell you anything you want to know.


The facts remain the same Amore, you have never been asked to live it therefore you know nothing of it. Your ramblings suggest this. Yes Heavenly Father may enlighten you on this but until you are asked to live it, it stays as info and not faith because there is no action there. Christ understood His mission in atoning for us and I am sure it would have been great if he only had to ask Heavenly Father about it without actually having to go through the process but that is just not the case. Yes it would be wonderful if we could just have the blessings handed to us without living it. Further light and knowledge comes through the temple and the ACTIONS associated with it. There is a pattern there. You are asked to live certain laws and are blessed accordingly. It is foolish to think you know a law you have not been asked to live. Try to explain tithing, fasting, and chastity to the world without having lived it yourself. Can't be done. There is no spirit in it. Which is why there is no spirit in what you say.

I have no desire to ask Heavenly Father about this since I am not ready for it. Remember Alma 29:4 the Lord will answer your prayers/desires whether it be unto your DESTRUCTION or salvation. Be careful what you pray for because the Lord Always answers prayers.

[ChelC]

Anecdotal evidence:

One of my maternal ancestors left behind a journal which another family member had translated. His personal account of joining the church, crossing the ocean and then the plains is nothing short of awe inspiring. His wife asked him to take a second wife. He was the hesitant one.

[Hyrcanus]

I agree, based on logic and math that the majority exalted beings will be monogamous. I'm willing to be wrong on this, I have no revelation on my side but I don't yet see how widespread polygamy is possible... You'd have to see my comments in another thread to understand why. But once again, there may be some factors which blow my math and logic away, they just haven't been revealed to me.

Just for clarity, it may well be that most exalted beings will be monogamous, just as most Saints in 1870 were monogamous. That fact exists independent of the idea that we'll be living under the doctrine of celestial marriage, even if you and I only have one spouse.

On the broader point of polygamy and the feelings of the participants, Amore you're going to have to produce some evidence that the women involved hated the arrangement generally and would have elected to ignore God's word and be monogamous. Saying that those that publicly extolled it really hated it privately requires that you demonstrate that is true. There is no doubt that some participants disliked it, but you're making a broad generalization that requires evidence.

I'm not willing to paint the early women of the church has low self-esteem dolts that had to be tricked in order to follow the Lord's instruction. I believe women today are just as capable as women in 1850 of following whatever instruction the Lord gives them, without requiring coercion, lies or ignorance.

[Scarecrow]

Anecdotal evidence:

One of my maternal ancestors left behind a journal which another family member had translated. His personal account of joining the church, crossing the ocean and then the plains is nothing short of awe inspiring. His wife asked him to take a second wife. He was the hesitant one.

On more than one occasion, after a long day of dealing with kids and housework, my wife has commented that she wished polygamy were still around so she could have someone to help share in the duties.

[ChelC]

Anecdotal evidence #2.

My mother talked with a woman years ago who was a modern day polygamist. Obviously, she was misled, but her feedback is interesting. Some reasons she told my mother that she loved it:

She had more independence - since there were always women at home with the children, when she had an outside interest, she was free to do it.

She had more financial freedom - for the same reasons above, some of the wives had careers to bring up the temporal standard of living.

Now, I think she's nuts, but of my two anecdotal stories - both women entered willingly and appeared to like it.

[Fiannan]

Anecdotal evidence #2.

My mother talked with a woman years ago who was a modern day polygamist. Obviously, she was misled, but her feedback is interesting. Some reasons she told my mother that she loved it:

She had more independence - since there were always women at home with the children, when she had an outside interest, she was free to do it.

She had more financial freedom - for the same reasons above, some of the wives had careers to bring up the temporal standard of living.

Now, I think she's nuts, but of my two anecdotal stories - both women entered willingly and appeared to like it.

And that is the beauty of the term "willingly." There are women who would like polygamy for the reasons cited above. Think about it, if a woman just wants to be alone in the woods all day long, but has kids, she has to find a babysitter. If, on the other hand, there are two women in the household maybe one will watch the kids so the other can go off into the woods, and then the other one can go to some cultural event the next day knowing full well her kids are being watched by someone who cares. And then there is the old problem of an infant waking in the middle of the night -- men can warm a bottle, sure, but women can trade off who will get up and feel any babies who wake up hungry.

Then there is the whole question of economics that can also be shown to work better TODAY in a communal situation. So while polygamy is not suited for everyone, one could argue that it suits certain women quite well and, interestingly enough, those women would have larger families and increase their genetic contribution to the next generation.

Interesting video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7OEaRn3u ... 2JLHmnB0gg

[MercynGrace]

Just read a very interesting article on Polygamy today - thought some of you might enjoy it:

http://squaretwo.org/Sq2ArticleCasslerPolygamy.html

[Jason]

Just read a very interesting article on Polygamy today - thought some of you might enjoy it:

http://squaretwo.org/Sq2ArticleCasslerPolygamy.html

Started off great then veered off course imo fwiw. The glory is based on eternal life of the children. The more children or increase....the more glory. Hence why the author imo stays away from the logic by Wilford Woodruff in the Proclamation.

[Amore Vero]

Anecdotal evidence #2.

My mother talked with a woman years ago who was a modern day polygamist. Obviously, she was misled, but her feedback is interesting. Some reasons she told my mother that she loved it:

She had more independence - since there were always women at home with the children, when she had an outside interest, she was free to do it.

She had more financial freedom - for the same reasons above, some of the wives had careers to bring up the temporal standard of living.

Now, I think she's nuts, but of my two anecdotal stories - both women entered willingly and appeared to like it.

Every sin, like wives having unnecessary careers & especially abominations like adulterous polygamy (which we all know the Church says every case of polygamy is today) all have their perks. How else could the Devil get us to fall for them.

I know alot of women (& men) living in adultery & they all say it's wonderful & they love it's perks. At least until they get to the painful repentance stage. And of course they never think they are living in adultery, they usually feel & claim to be & even look very righteous & wonderful. But they love the perks of it & do not see the cons because they know not what they do anymore, having lost the Spirit.

You can't judge from anything anyone says who is under the influence of the Adversary, nor can you judge the women of the 1800's who said they liked it when they were under great threat if they said or did otherwise, like many of Brigham Young's wives that he threatened to divorce if they didn't stop complaining & crying about it & instead go along with it all.

I am going to have to bow out of this conversation now, for I don't think any good can come from continuing to discuss this. It's a very sensitive subject that can only be understood by the Spirit anyway, discussing it is usually useless. In fact, it is often even dangerous to discuss polygamy without the Spirit, for it is a very contagious abomination today & easily entices men to commit sin by desiring it & thus break their marriage vows to be completely faithful to their spouse in thought, word, desires & deeds, as the Prophets teach us to be.

The reason I said what I said was because I have found that most women are revolted by the idea of polygamy & all righteous men are too, for righteous men would rather die than hurt their wife in any way, even by polygamy & thus they would be more repulsed & pained to live it than the wife.

So I assumed my insights to what I have found to be true, would be of help, but I see those on this forum do not agree with such things. And that's perfectly fine. It mattereth not. For it's a good thing that everyone is free to believe & do what they want to. That's the only way we learn, if even the hard way.

[Fiannan]

Georgie Porgie, Puddin' and Pie,
Kissed the girls and made them cry,
When the boys came out to play
Georgie Porgie ran away.

For some reason, when someone comes into a debate, makes highly inflamatory statements, then says they won't stick around and back up their statements, this little nursery rhyme comes to mind.

Amore Vero, come on, I have at least read anti-Mormon literature that is kinder to the leaders of the Church than what you have shared here. So are you saying that Abraham, Gideon, Jacob, Brigham Young, etc. were sinful, adulterous men? You know, the Bible says that adulterers will not gain entrance into Heaven -- so where are the prophets residing today? I wish you would at least come back and play long enough to answer that.

Also, the Church does not excommunicate people who become polygamists on a charge of adultery. They are charged with apostacy.

[Amore Vero]

I never said any Prophets were adulterous. I do not detect the Spirit here, thus it is useless to continue to discuss these things, for I will just continue to be misunderstood as your last comment did & mocked.

[Quiet Cricket]

I agree, based on logic and math that the majority exalted beings will be monogamous. I'm willing to be wrong on this, I have no revelation on my side but I don't yet see how widespread polygamy is possible... You'd have to see my comments in another thread to understand why. But once again, there may be some factors which blow my math and logic away, they just haven't been revealed to me.

Just for clarity, it may well be that most exalted beings will be monogamous, just as most Saints in 1870 were monogamous. That fact exists independent of the idea that we'll be living under the doctrine of celestial marriage, even if you and I only have one spouse.

On the broader point of polygamy and the feelings of the participants, Amore you're going to have to produce some evidence that the women involved hated the arrangement generally and would have elected to ignore God's word and be monogamous. Saying that those that publicly extolled it really hated it privately requires that you demonstrate that is true. There is no doubt that some participants disliked it, but you're making a broad generalization that requires evidence.

I'm not willing to paint the early women of the church has low self-esteem dolts that had to be tricked in order to follow the Lord's instruction. I believe women today are just as capable as women in 1850 of following whatever instruction the Lord gives them, without requiring coercion, lies or ignorance.

I don't know if it is true, but some have suggested that many more women will be exalted than men. The result is obvious. Also, we know there are ways to find a wife other than marrying a spirit sister. God married Mary, the earthly mother of Jesus Christ. So, we could possibly marry spirit daughters, cousins, etc... If the whole universe was open for marriage the ratio of men to women might change. What if on one earth almost no men were exalted? I have no idea if things like this happen, but it's possible.

[WYp8riot]

My thoughts are that the "family" courts and laws need more attention in the liberty movement.

http://www.ldsfreedomforum.com/viewtopi ... 19&t=13516

[braingrunt]

I agree, based on logic and math that the majority exalted beings will be monogamous. I'm willing to be wrong on this, I have no revelation on my side but I don't yet see how widespread polygamy is possible... You'd have to see my comments in another thread to understand why. But once again, there may be some factors which blow my math and logic away, they just haven't been revealed to me.

Yes, there may be considerations which open up polygamy on a wide scale. Marriage to spirit cousins etc may be one of them, however I find it unlikely. I believe this world is an isolated salvation group. Ordinances for those here have to be performed here by unresurrected beings who have their probation here. How does that work if the person lives on another world, or even more extreme, to another eternal round? Moses was shown the vision of the earth and told there were other worlds, but did not see any interaction between these worlds that we have recorded. Rather he was told: only things pertaining to this world show I unto you.

If it's just this world we're talking about we already (according to human estimates) have a problem: There are way too many guys being exalted through death before the age of accountability. If they each become polygamous, then the rest of us are in big trouble because even if every woman who ever existed ends up exalted, they will take every last one of them. http://www.ldsfreedomforum.com/viewtopi ... my#p108140

[Amore Vero]

If it's just this world we're talking about we already (according to human estimates) have a problem: There are way too many guys being exalted through death before the age of accountability. If they each become polygamous, then the rest of us are in big trouble because even if every woman who ever existed ends up exalted, they will take every last one of them. http://www.ldsfreedomforum.com/viewtopi ... my#p108140

Thanks for the numbers. That was very interesting. Didn't a Prophet say that those born to this earth will always belong to this earth, etc.? & if that is so, it would be the same for all Earths. So we may just have only those numbers pertaining to this earth to draw from.

Also, I believe that not only will Monogamy be the major form of marriage in eternity, but that if there is plural marriage in heaven, it's highly probable that more women will have multiple husbands than men have multiple wives, especially since blessings & having spouses are based upon righteousness. There are many other reasons for this too, one being that Joseph F. Smith said, there is no gift or blessing that God gives his sons that he doesn't also give to his daughters. This could also be the answer how to save more men if there are not enough women for all the men who make it.

We are told there is much more about plural marriage that hasn't been revealed yet & the scriptures, common sense, Prophet's teachings & polygamous marriages where women had more than one husband in the 1800's (including Christ's mother Mary who the Prophets say had 2 husbands at one time), seems to hint strongly at this.

[Fiannan]

Not sure about numbers and ratios in the CK. However, since eternal increase is an intrical part of eternal progression, then I can only imagine that part of that will involve the willingness one has in this life to bring forth a righteous posterity (and that involves both quality as in wanting to instill good values in them as well as quantity in having a large family). In my experience, in and out of the Church, males are far less inclined to be interested in the sacred notion of following the ancient prophet's example of multiplying and replenishing the earth than women. I live and work in an area that is VERY liberal. I have noticed that even bisexual and lesbian women I know have strong maternal instincts and desire to have children. They yearn for it while even men I know who are conservative only have a minority that have paternal instincts as strong. So in my opinion the prophecy that 7 women will want to clutch to 1 man in the latter days may well not involve the aftermath of war, but be a social development where 6 men are either gay or virtual gay (not desiring marriage or family).

What say ye all, could a man be really righteous in this life but have a sour attitude on procreation and not have the opportunity for eternal progression? And will women in this life who might not have been nearly as righteous, but have a kind heart mixed with a love of children gain exaltation and be paired with the men who did understand the deeper meanings of the importance of eternal increase? Just a question.