LDS Freedom Forum

In an Institute Class the intructor made a few claims and cited some sources and references I can't remember.

Those claims were:
1. Only those receiving Exaltation will remember earth life. Terrestrial and Tel Beings will not remember earth life and judgment after they receive their reward.

2. Only those receiving Exaltation will maintain their gender. Terrestrial and Tel Beings will not have gender.

Of course there was plenty of opposition as well as acceptance.

I have my own opinions

What think ye?

I think he's a nut.

Gender Is Eternal and Essential

Elder Richard G. Scott of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles has taught that our creation as male and female children of God “was done spiritually in your premortal existence when you lived in the presence of your Father in Heaven. Your gender existed before you came to earth.” 4

Gender is part of our eternal identity and is necessary for our eternal progression. President Packer explained: “The plan of happiness requires the righteous union of male and female, man and woman, husband and wife. … A body patterned after the image of God was created for Adam, and he was introduced into the Garden. At first, Adam was alone. … But alone, he could not fulfill the purposes of his creation. No other man would do. Neither alone nor with other men could Adam progress. Nor could Eve with another woman. It was so then. It is so today. Eve, an help meet, was created. Marriage was instituted.” 5

Alma 12:14

14 For our awords will condemn us, yea, all our works will condemn us; we shall not be found spotless; and our thoughts will also condemn us; and in this awful state we shall not dare to look up to our God; and we would fain be glad if we could command the rocks and the bmountains to fall upon us to chide us from his presence.

Alma 11:43

43 The spirit and the body shall be areunited again in its bperfect form; both limb and joint shall be restored to its proper frame, even as we now are at this time; and we shall be brought to stand before God, cknowing even as we know now, and have a bright drecollection of all our eguilt.

I haven't heard the gender stuff, but missionaries did tell me that my non-LDS family members would forget their life earth (and thus me). I didnt't believe her and LDS friends of mine thought she was nuts too.

This is kind of a huge deal.

Interesting.

I don't think ChelC's quotes totally quash the argument, though. Yes, our gender existed before we came to earth. That's not what was being questioned. How long before? Who knows? And yes, gender is essential for eternal progression, i.e. exaltation... but nothing about gender in the lower kingdoms was discussed in ChelC's quotes. What's the point of gender if no reproduction is taking place?

As for memory... the Alma 11 and 12 quotes are referring to the judgment, aren't they? Not afterward. It's happened before... it could happen again...

I hope number 1 is not true. That makes me sad, and seems to serve no purpose. I must see a quote to believe this one.

Number 2 is true if you believe what Joseph Fielding Smith wrote in Doctrines of Salvation.

Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation wrote:POWERS OF PROCRATION LIMITED

Some will gain celestial bodies with all the powers of exaltation and eternal increase. These bodies will shine like the sun as our Savior.s does, as described by John [Rev 1:12-18; D&C 110:1-4; Ex 24:9-10]. Those who enter the terrestrial kingdom will have terrestrial bodies, and they will not shine like the sun, but they will be more glorious than the bodies of those who receive the telestial glory.
In both of these kingdoms there will be changes in the bodies and limitations. They will not have the power of increase, neither the power or nature to live as husbands and wives, for this will be denied them and they cannot increase.
Those who receive the exaltation in the celestial kingdom will have the "continuation of the seeds forever." [D&C 132:19.] They will live in the family relationship. In the terrestrial and in the telestial kingdoms there will be no marriage. Those who enter there will remain "separately and singly" forever. [D&C 132:15-32.]
Some of the functions in the celestial body will not appear in the terrestrial body, neither in the telestial body, and the power of procreation will be removed. I take it that men and women will, in these kingdoms, be just what the so-called Christian world expects us all to be t neither man nor woman, merely immortal beings having received the resurrection. (Doc of Salv 2:287-288;)

Scary, what if this is like one big Lost final episode thing and we are all already dead and were given the tellestial kingdom -- and we don't remember anything from the last life?

I don't believe that, just throwing it out.

I know that at least some memories will be taken from people, after they repent in Spirit Prison, especially memories of huge sins & the people they committed them with.

Quiet Cricket wrote:I hope number 1 is not true. That makes me sad, and seems to serve no purpose. I must see a quote to believe this one.

Number 2 is true if you believe what Joseph Fielding Smith wrote in Doctrines of Salvation.

Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation wrote:POWERS OF PROCRATION LIMITED

Some will gain celestial bodies with all the powers of exaltation and eternal increase. These bodies will shine like the sun as our Savior.s does, as described by John [Rev 1:12-18; D&C 110:1-4; Ex 24:9-10]. Those who enter the terrestrial kingdom will have terrestrial bodies, and they will not shine like the sun, but they will be more glorious than the bodies of those who receive the telestial glory.
In both of these kingdoms there will be changes in the bodies and limitations. They will not have the power of increase, neither the power or nature to live as husbands and wives, for this will be denied them and they cannot increase.
Those who receive the exaltation in the celestial kingdom will have the "continuation of the seeds forever." [D&C 132:19.] They will live in the family relationship. In the terrestrial and in the telestial kingdoms there will be no marriage. Those who enter there will remain "separately and singly" forever. [D&C 132:15-32.]
Some of the functions in the celestial body will not appear in the terrestrial body, neither in the telestial body, and the power of procreation will be removed. I take it that men and women will, in these kingdoms, be just what the so-called Christian world expects us all to be t neither man nor woman, merely immortal beings having received the resurrection. (Doc of Salv 2:287-288;)

I don't believe that he's saying people will be hermaphroditic, just that they will not have the power of creation. I'd definitely have to see a lot more evidence to buy it. Everything I've ever read on the subject says gender is eternal, and that gender is more than the physical manifestations. I'm infertile, but I'm still a woman. I think it's easy enough to lose the power of procreation without losing a gender identity.

The two quotes don't square, so we either have prophets at odds, or there is something we're failing to grasp in one, the other, or both quotes.

I agree Raindrop.

Thanks for the quote QuietCricket, I believe that was referenced in the institute class.

A couple of quick thoughts:

1. In the Resurrection not even one hair of the head will be lost

Alma 11: 44
44 Now, this restoration shall come to all, both old and young, both bond and free, both male and female, both the wicked and the righteous; and even there shall not so much as a hair of their heads be lost; but every thing shall be arestored to its perfect frame, as it is now, or in the body, and shall be brought and be arraigned before the bar of Christ the Son, and God the bFather, and the Holy Spirit, which is cone Eternal God, to be djudged according to their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil.

So I think gender will be maintained (men may have beards, women will not), because gender is eternal. But I guess the powers of procreation will be lost. I guess that makes sense, I mean, men and women living for eternity in a Telestial Kingdom, it seems like something would have to take place to limit procreation.

2. The memory thing. I guess if you think about it, the Terr and Tel Kingdoms are degrees of GLORY, although not close to Celestial Glory, but a glory nonetheless. So it seems certain memories may diminish that glory for eternity.

Raindrop wrote:What's the point of gender if no reproduction is taking place?

I'll make sure to ask my husband about that (I'm infertile). And all the single older sisters I know.

ChelC... I'm talking about in an eternal sense, after the Judgment. You can hardly tie one's righteousness to one's ability to procreate in this life.

Raindrop wrote:ChelC... I'm talking about in an eternal sense, after the Judgment. You can hardly tie one's righteousness to one's ability to procreate in this life.

I think you can. I don't think the only purpose of gender is procreation, which is why I think the idea is a silly one.

If I don't make it to the top kingdom I'd like to be called Pat in the great and looong hereafter.

“All human beings—male and female—are created in the image of God. Each is a beloved spirit son or daughter of heavenly parents, and, as such, each has a divine nature and destiny. Gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose” (“The Family: A Proclamation to the World,”

I don't see any qualifiers in "eternal identity and purpose" and I don't believe that all the souls who do not attain a celestial glory will be eternally stunted and without purpose. That seems like a tremendous waste of resources.

shadow wrote:If I don't make it to the top kingdom I'd like to be called Pat in the great and looong hereafter.

pat.jpg

Even Pat was something, we just don't know what!

ChelC wrote: Even Pat was something, we just don't know what!

Yes, Pat was something
It seems that the Telestial and Terrestrial kingdoms are always temporary. This earth is a fine example. Outer darkness fits the description of this fine Institute teachers doctrine (gotta love seminary teachers and their hero's- the institute teacher). Elder Scott recently related a dream in General Conference similar IMO to what has been posted -loss of memory etc... But again, I think he was describing outer darkness.

shadow wrote: It seems that the Telestial and Terrestrial kingdoms are always temporary.

I agree... but that's going to open a whole new can of worms.

If I woke up one day in the eternal Terrestrial Kingdom and asked someone how I got there, and they told me "Well, you didn't do so great in the past life", I would not believe them. I think that losing memories of Earth life is not true. The whole point of our eternal progression was to learn what it is to be mortal. We did what we did and we will do what we will do. That is permanent. But our sins can be made clean, not literally forgotten. Our past mistakes help us to learn how to NOT make mistakes in the future.


ALTHOUGH...

on the other hand, some of us can ask "How did I end up so blessed with and LDS family?" Some might answer: "You did well in the pre-mortal life."

Any thoughts on this?

I believe that gender is eternal but the power & inclination to procreate is not & will be lost forever for those without Exaltation. I believe that such loss will be part of the eternal remorse & pain that those in the lower kingdoms will always feel.

Epistemology wrote:So I think gender will be maintained (men may have beards, women will not), because gender is eternal. .

Well, there are some women who will have beards along with the men.

Not one hair will be lost htt(D&C 29: 23-25) and I am betting waxing and plucking will not be a practice in the life here after.

Oh and by the way if this is true you will not see me with a beard. Can't seem to grow one of those.

e-eye wrote:

Epistemology wrote:So I think gender will be maintained (men may have beards, women will not), because gender is eternal. .

Well, there are some women who will have beards along with the men.

Not one hair will be lost htt(D&C 29: 23-25) and I am betting waxing and plucking will not be a practice in the life here after.

Oh and by the way if this is true you will not see me with a beard. Can't seem to grow one of those.

I think that our hair patterns will be perfected

InfoWarrior82 wrote:If I woke up one day in the eternal Terrestrial Kingdom and asked someone how I got there, and they told me "Well, you didn't do so great in the past life", I would not believe them. I think that losing memories of Earth life is not true. The whole point of our eternal progression was to learn what it is to be mortal. We did what we did and we will do what we will do. That is permanent. But our sins can be made clean, not literally forgotten. Our past mistakes help us to learn how to NOT make mistakes in the future.


ALTHOUGH...

on the other hand, some of us can ask "How did I end up so blessed with and LDS family?" Some might answer: "You did well in the pre-mortal life."

Any thoughts on this?

My opinion on placement is a reflection of foresight of a Father in Heaven. Not entirely like so but rather we are like pawns in a game of chess. We are strategically placed so as to loose none and win the game. No one is placed where they shouldn't be or will not have the best opportunity to be tested on the "areas we needed testing".

InfoWarrior82 wrote: on the other hand, some of us can ask "How did I end up so blessed with and LDS family?" Some might answer: "You did well in the pre-mortal life."

Any thoughts on this?

It is true that some have been told that they ended up in an LDS home because of their prior valiancy in the pre-existence. But there are many others who were just as valiant who chose to go to families w/o the Gospel & they would be the 1st one to embrace it & bring the sealings blessings to their line. Other strong & valiant spirits were sent to wicked families, to help stop the chain of abuse & sin & let the line run clean after them & help save their loved ones by the sealing power.

All these senarios we had choice & consent in, depending on what we wanted to learn & accomplish here on earth & who we wanted to be with or help or even save, because of our prior relationships before this life.

Amore Vero wrote:

InfoWarrior82 wrote: on the other hand, some of us can ask "How did I end up so blessed with and LDS family?" Some might answer: "You did well in the pre-mortal life."

Any thoughts on this?

It is true that some have been told that they ended up in an LDS home because of their prior valiancy in the pre-existence. But there are many others who were just as valiant who chose to go to families w/o the Gospel & they would be the 1st one to embrace it & bring the sealings blessings to their line. Other strong & valiant spirits were sent to wicked families, to help stop the chain of abuse & sin & let the line run clean after them & help save their loved ones by the sealing power.

All these senarios we had choice & consent in, depending on what we wanted to learn & accomplish here on earth & who we wanted to be with or help or even save, because of our prior relationships before this life.

I agree, althought I am not sure I would have stated is as fact as much as opinion. I certainly do not feel that those born to LDS families were IN ALL CASES the pre-mortal cream of the crop. I agree with Amore's PoV, I think we probably were involved in the decision of where we would go and I would guess our reasons for choosing what we did was as much of a test as anything we face in mortality. I bet there were some people that said "Lord, send me wherever you require me." Others were probably feeling that they needed to be born into a family with the gospel to have a chance to return. I am sure we were given a lot of counsel and who knows if the final decision was His or ours? But I bet that we had a good idea of the circumstances we would be coming into.