LDS Freedom Forum

ndjili wrote: Also I have an aunt who had a very difficult child and was told my her Stake President that rebelious spirits get sent to good LDS homes as well, as a way to give them every advantage to get back. Interesting thought.

bobhenstra wrote:

Quiet Cricket wrote:

Amore Vero wrote:Do you have exact references? The reason I ask is that in our last Ward Conference the Stake President taught the lesson in Priesthood and asked the question on if there was any "progression between kingdoms." The general answer was similar to yours in that most everyone responded that there was not. Our stake president then corrected us and said the answer he has received from the General Authorities is that "we don't know."

We talked about this extensively in other threads. It's very interesting so we keep coming back to it. Here are some references I posted in one of the other threads:

Spencer W. Kimball, Miracle of Forgiveness, 243-244. (Mel. Pr'd manual, 1979-1980, 146. See also Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, 50.) After a person has been assigned to his place in the kingdom, either in the telestial, the terrestrial or the celestial, or to his exaltation, he will never advance from his assigned glory to another glory. That is eternal!

Absolutely correct! No one can advance by his own merits, we cannot earn salvation, its a gift! By your interpretation of President Kimballs words, your suggesting we have to earn salvation, which by the prophet's own words "is" exaltation. And since salvation, eternal life, exaltation "is" a gift, and cannot be earned, where do you suppose we'll be assigned?

Bruce R. McConkie, Doctrinal New Testament Commentary 1:196. It is from these revelations which recite that resurrected beings come forth with different kinds of bodies [D&C 76; 88:16-33; 1 Cor 15:35-58; Mormon Doctrine, 1st ed., 573-579] that we learn a few of the many revealed reasons why there is not and cannot be progression from one degree of glory to another after the resurrection.

Absolutely right! there is no advancement from one degree to another by our own merit, salvation is a gift, we cannot earn salvation!

George Albert Smith, Conference Report, October 1945, 172. There are some people who have supposed that if we are quickened telestial bodies that eventually, throughout the ages of eternity, we will continue to progress until we will find our place in the celestial kingdom, but the Scriptures and the revelations of God have said that those who are quickened telestial bodies cannot come where God and Christ dwell, worlds without end.

Where God and Christ dwell, worlds without end! You currently have a Telestial body, mortality is your current assignment, by your own merit and effort, please place yourself in the Celestial kingdom "now" and return and give us some direction. Salvation is a gift, It cannot be earned.

Bruce R. McConkie, "The Seven Deadly Heresies" (Tape Transcript), BYU, 1 June 1980. Heresy number five. There are those who say that there is progression from one kingdom to another in the eternal worlds or, if not, that lower kingdoms eventually progress to where higher kingdoms once were. This is worse than false! It is an evil and pernicious doctrine.

Exactly right, as Elder McConkie states the heresy, its an evil and pernicious doctrine. Are we advanced by commandment in the Temple? It happens the same way with us, all of us, after we have repented!

It lulls men into a state of carnal security. It causes them to say: "God is so merciful; surely he will save us all eventually. If we do not gain the celestial kingdom now, eventually we will, so why worry?" It lets people live a life of sin here and now with the hope that they will be saved eventually.

Lol, I suppose if it keeps you on what you consider the straight and narrow, then its ok!

The true doctrine is that all men will be resurrected, but they will come forth in the resurrection with different kinds of bodies-some celestial, others terrestrial, others telestial, and some with bodies incapable of standing any degree of glory. The body we receive in the resurrection determines the glory we receive in the kingdoms that are prepared.

Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation 2:31-34. No Advancement from Lower to Higher. It has been asked if it is possible for one who inherits the telestial glory to advance in time to the celestial glory?

The answer to this question is, No!

In speaking face to face with Joseph Fielding Smith, he stated perfectly clear he meant by our own merit.

The scriptures are clear on this point. Speaking of those who go to the telestial kingdom, the revelation says: "And they shall be servants of the Most High; but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end."

Everyone in the Celestial Kingdom will be a servant, Christ is the greatest servant of them all! It'll be my honor to be compared to my Savior as a servant.

Notwithstanding this statement, those who do not comprehend the word of the Lord argue that while this is true, that they cannot go where God is "worlds without end," yet in time they will get where God was, but he will have gone on to other heights.

This is false reasoning, illogical, and creates mischief in making people think they may procrastinate their repentance, but in course of time they will reach exaltation in celestial glory.

Repentance has to happen, in mortality or in the spirit world, it has to happen! The gift has to be received!

Kingdoms Progress in Different Directions. Now let us see how faulty this reasoning is. If in time those who enter the telestial glory may progress till they reach the stage in which the celestial is in now--then they are in celestial glory, are they not, even if the celestial has advanced? That being the case (I state this for the argument only, for it is not true), then they partake of all the blessings which are now celestial. That means that they become gods, have exaltation, gain the fulness of the Father, and receive a continuation of the "seeds forever." The Lord, however, has said that these blessings, which are celestial blessings, they may never have; they are barred forever!

The celestial and terrestrial and telestial glories, I have heard compared to the wheels on a train. The second and third may, and will, reach the place where the first was, but the first will have moved on and will still be just the same distance in advance of them. This illustration is not true! The wheels do not run on the same track, and do not go in the same direction. The terrestrial and the telestial are limited in their powers of advancement, worlds without end.

Because Salvation which is exaltation is a gift, we cannot accept the gift until the resurrection.

Bob

shadow wrote:Pres. David O. McKay gives some additional light and knowledge. Take it for what it's worth.
"The hearts of the fathers and of the children will be turned to one another when the fathers in the spirit world, hearing the gospel preached and realizing that they must obey the ordinances thereof, know that their children on earth are performing these ordinances for them."
A few thoughts from me... The fathers in the spirit world include members of the church who were not obedient on this side of the veil. The difference is testimony and where they get it. If they didn't get it on this side of the veil they will continue to be taught on the other side until they "realize they MUST obey the ordinances thereof". Once they obey the ordinances thereof they are entitled to all the blessings the ordinances offer. FYI, the blessings include exaltation. Amero says people still won't accept these ordinances, David O. McKay suggests different. And who in there right mind would deny being like our Heavenly Father once they had the knowledge they can be? The answer is nobody. And if a person isn't in their "right mind" they will continue to learn until they are. A man cannot be saved in ignorance and a lack of knowledge is ignorance. A man cannot be judged (final judgement) when he is ignorant. However, once he gains the knowledge he will realize he must obey as Pres. McKay taught.

Jason wrote: ....tell that to Cain!

shadow wrote:

Jason wrote: ....tell that to Cain!

I'll let Pres. McKay

Jason wrote: At the end of the day we get what we desire most.

eye wrote

Although, I think we will still be somewhat saddened in the life to come if we don't reach our full potential in the highest kingdom.

NoGreaterLove wrote:Bob
You know I enjoy most of your posts. You are a pretty decent person. I love corresponding with you on this forum.
I just wish I knew where and when this doctrine came into play in your life. It is totally false. It is an old doctrine preached by Korihor with a little different twist on things. I hope you will recognize it for what it really is and stop believing it.

NoGreaterLove wrote:Bob
You know I enjoy most of your posts. You are a pretty decent person. I love corresponding with you on this forum.
I just wish I knew where and when this doctrine came into play in your life. It is totally false. It is an old doctrine preached by Korihor with a little different twist on things. I hope you will recognize it for what it really is and stop believing it.

bobhenstra wrote:

NoGreaterLove wrote:Bob
You know I enjoy most of your posts. You are a pretty decent person. I love corresponding with you on this forum.
I just wish I knew where and when this doctrine came into play in your life. It is totally false. It is an old doctrine preached by Korihor with a little different twist on things. I hope you will recognize it for what it really is and stop believing it.

Thanks NGL but I'll take my chances. Korihor was an antichrist, he didn't believe in Christ. I place "all" my faith in Christ. My Lord says he is the "Savior" of "all" mankind, I believe him because I know he cannot lie. The Prophet Joseph Smith says "Salvation is to be Christ or as one like him," I believe the Prophet Joseph Smith. Any private interpretation of anything any other modern day prophet has said that contradicts Christ and the Prophet Joseph Smith, I can safely ignore, that interpretation is false.

I do not accept the idea of "kingdom jumping" because the idea is false, and is totally unnecessary, as pointed out By Elder McConkie in his Seven Deadly Heresies talk!

Speaking of "kingdoms"

Every earth, including this earth will experience three kingdoms, Telestial, terrestrial and Celestial. Presently this earth is in it's Telestial condition, it will soon enter into its Terrestrial condition, and according to Brigham Young and others, the Telestial part of this earth will "pass away" cease to exist, the same will happen to the Terrestrial part when this earth becomes a Celestial Kingdom, the Terrestrial part will pass away, cease to exist.

However, there are also three glories joined at the hip with this earth, they go by different names, such as "Spirit Prison" a Telestial Glory, "Paradise" a Terrestrial Glory and a Celestial glory that isn't spoken about much, but does have its required three witnesses, as in the "Law of the witnesses." "I" understand these glories to be the three degrees of glory "in" the Celestial Kingdom when this earth is celestialized, and are properly named Telestial, Terrestrial, and Celestial. These "glories" also pass away when they are no longer needed, leaving only the Celestial Kingdom, which is removed "Nigh unto Kolob" and another Telestial earth replaces this earth, in this orbit, around the same sun, and goes through the same process!

Our Lord has told us, speaking of his children (by proxy) "Every knee shall bend and every tongue confess that Jesus is the Christ!" As I read your posts, I wonder, what part of "every" don't you folks understand? Our Lord cannot lie, if he says every, he means "every!" The word confess sometimes confuses people who refuse to actually search the scripture. We are told; "You know a person has "repented" because he will "confess" his sins!" Our Lord had clearly told us "EVERY" child of the Most High will repent, since all will confess! Our Lord has told us very clearly that he died for the sins of "ALL" mankind, he is the Savior and redeemer of "ALL" mankind, And again I ask, what part of "all" don't you good folk understand? He cannot be the Savior of "ALL" mankind if "ALL" mankind does not repent!

Our Savior is the savior of many worlds, he come to this earth to save everyone on this earth, and everyone on all the other earths. This earth is his Earth, He is our King, He will reside, live on this earth, this earth can honestly be titled the Redemptive Earth. I consider it a great honor that "I" was allowed to muddle my way through my mortality on this earth.

My Heavenly Father is perfect, His plan is perfect, the experiences of mortality is part of that plan. Perfection cannot fail!

My testimony based on many years of intense study and being taught by a great many, great people.

Bob

And this we saw also, and bear record, that an angel of God who was in authority in the presence of God, who rebelled against the Only Begotten Son whom the Father loved and who was in the bosom of the Father, was thrust down from the presence of God and the Son,

And was called Perdition, for the heavens wept over him—he was Lucifer, a son of the morning.

And we beheld, and lo, he is fallen! is fallen, even a son of the morning!

And while we were yet in the Spirit, the Lord commanded us that we should write the vision; for we beheld Satan, that old serpent, even the devil, who rebelled against God, and sought to take the kingdom of our God and his Christ—

Wherefore, he maketh war with the saints of God, and encompasseth them round about.

And we saw a vision of the sufferings of those with whom he made war and overcame, for thus came the voice of the Lord unto us:

Thus saith the Lord concerning all those who know my power, and have been made partakers thereof, and asuffered themselves through the power of the devil to be overcome, and to deny the truth and defy my power—

They are they who are the sons of perdition, of whom I say that it had been better for them never to have been born;

For they are vessels of wrath, doomed to suffer the wrath of God, with the devil and his angels in eternity;

Concerning whom I have said there is no forgiveness in this world nor in the world to come—

Having denied the Holy Spirit after having received it, and having denied the Only Begotten Son of the Father, having crucified him unto themselves and put him to an open shame.

These are they who shall go away into the lake of fire and brimstone, with the devil and his angels—

And the only ones on whom the second death shall have any power;

Yea, verily, the only ones who shall not be redeemed in the due time of the Lord, after the sufferings of his wrath.

bobhenstra wrote:Your post is speaking of Lucifer and his followers sometimes referred to as the sons of perdition, Our Lord himself says "He save "all" except the sons of perdition!" He cannot lie!

During the millennium when satan and his followers are bound, what do you suppose we'll be doing with them, is it possible we might be teaching them? Is there the possibility that they can cease to be sons of perdition? Is "your" heavenly Father smart enough to have allowed for that contingency? MY Heavenly Father is! Just wondering what you think!

Bob

e-eye wrote:Sometimes I think we look beyond the mark. Back to the basics.

ndjili wrote:Last month our Stake PResident talked to the priesthood holders and warned them about spreading this very false doctrine. This and the ideal that if we are sealed to our parents and they live righteously they can claim us, with the idea that they can save us so we dont have to do anything. HE says these ideals are factoring into the large numbers of young adults who go out into the world with the eat drink and be merry idea. The subtle twists are really causing a lot of harm in our church.

I do think that people will get the chance to repent up until the resurrection and judgement. We will get every opportunity yes, but once we have been judged that's it.

shadow wrote:

e-eye wrote:Sometimes I think we look beyond the mark. Back to the basics.

Excellent link.

Libertas wrote:President Faust talked about the Joseph Smith quote and seems to make a distinction between salvation and exaltation:

"I believe and accept the comforting statement of Elder Orson F. Whitney:

“The Prophet Joseph Smith declared—and he never taught more comforting doctrine—that the eternal sealings of faithful parents and the divine promises made to them for valiant service in the Cause of Truth, would save not only themselves, but likewise their posterity. Though some of the sheep may wander, the eye of the Shepherd is upon them, and sooner or later they will feel the tentacles of Divine Providence reaching out after them and drawing them back to the fold. Either in this life or the life to come, they will return. They will have to pay their debt to justice; they will suffer for their sins; and may tread a thorny path; but if it leads them at last, like the penitent Prodigal, to a loving and forgiving father’s heart and home, the painful experience will not have been in vain. Pray for your careless and disobedient children; hold on to them with your faith. Hope on, trust on, till you see the salvation of God.” 8

A principle in this statement that is often overlooked is that they must fully repent and “suffer for their sins” and “pay their debt to justice.” I recognize that now is the time “to prepare to meet God.” 9 If the repentance of the wayward children does not happen in this life, is it still possible for the cords of the sealing to be strong enough for them yet to work out their repentance? In the Doctrine and Covenants we are told, “The dead who repent will be redeemed, through obedience to the ordinances of the house of God,

“And after they have paid the penalty of their transgressions, and are washed clean, shall receive a reward according to their works, for they are heirs of salvation.” 10

We remember that the prodigal son wasted his inheritance, and when it was all gone he came back to his father’s house. There he was welcomed back into the family, but his inheritance was spent. 11 Mercy will not rob justice, and the sealing power of faithful parents will only claim wayward children upon the condition of their repentance and Christ’s Atonement. Repentant wayward children will enjoy salvation and all the blessings that go with it, but exaltation is much more. It must be fully earned. The question as to who will be exalted must be left to the Lord in His mercy."

James E. Faust, “Dear Are the Sheep That Have Wandered,” Ensign, May 2003, 61.

ndjili wrote:Last month our Stake PResident talked to the priesthood holders and warned them about spreading this very false doctrine. This and the ideal that if we are sealed to our parents and they live righteously they can claim us, with the idea that they can save us so we dont have to do anything. HE says these ideals are factoring into the large numbers of young adults who go out into the world with the eat drink and be merry idea. The subtle twists are really causing a lot of harm in our church.

I do think that people will get the chance to repent up until the resurrection and judgement. We will get every opportunity yes, but once we have been judged that's it.

Quiet Cricket wrote:If everyone will be exalted the prophets must have spent years trying to invent the most confusing way to tell us that.

If I will be exalted eventually, why am I killing myself trying to be righteous? I'm surrounded by evil presently; why fight it? Let's say it takes me 500 million more years to be exalted if I don't repent right now, even if I am exalted the morning of the first resurrection I will still be 9999 billion years behind the Gods preceding me. What's 500 million more years? Nothing.

Now that I basically have my calling and election made sure by learning of this doctrine, I can relax and procrastinate my repentance for a couple million more years.

I guess the only real benefit to repenting now is to not have to suffer for my own sins for 1000 years during the millennium. Then again, I can still escape that by living a terrestrial life, which isn't too hard with a good heart.

Of course I'm being sarcastic. At this point I don't see how it would be true. It seems like to make it true you have to twist the meaning of scripture and the words of the prophets, the latter being given in much plainness.

Quiet Cricket wrote:If everyone will be exalted the prophets must have spent years trying to invent the most confusing way to tell us that.

If I will be exalted eventually, why am I killing myself trying to be righteous? I'm surrounded by evil presently; why fight it? Let's say it takes me 500 million more years to be exalted if I don't repent right now, even if I am exalted the morning of the first resurrection I will still be 9999 billion years behind the Gods preceding me. What's 500 million more years? Nothing.

Now that I basically have my calling and election made sure by learning of this doctrine, I can relax and procrastinate my repentance for a couple million more years.

I guess the only real benefit to repenting now is to not have to suffer for my own sins for 1000 years during the millennium. Then again, I can still escape that by living a terrestrial life, which isn't too hard with a good heart.

Of course I'm being sarcastic. At this point I don't see how it would be true. It seems like to make it true you have to twist the meaning of scripture and the words of the prophets, the latter being given in much plainness.