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Re: Gender, Memory and the 3 Degrees of Glory
Posted: July 14th, 2010, 1:16 pm
by ndjili
It seems that the Telestial and Terrestrial kingdoms are always temporary.
Where do you get this idea??????
Also I have an aunt who had a very difficult child and was told my her Stake President that rebelious spirits get sent to good LDS homes as well, as a way to give them every advantage to get back. Interesting thought.
I think people born into LDS families tend to be a little too full of themselves if they believe that only the best of the best get sent into good LDS homes and rebelious spirits get sent to evil non LDS families.
Too much theory on this site anymore. Not enough facts.
Re: Gender, Memory and the 3 Degrees of Glory
Posted: July 14th, 2010, 1:43 pm
by Amore Vero
Original_Intent wrote:
I agree, althought I am not sure I would have stated is as fact as much as opinion. I certainly do not feel that those born to LDS families were IN ALL CASES the pre-mortal cream of the crop. I agree with Amore's PoV, I think we probably were involved in the decision of where we would go and I would guess our reasons for choosing what we did was as much of a test as anything we face in mortality. I bet there were some people that said "Lord, send me wherever you require me." Others were probably feeling that they needed to be born into a family with the gospel to have a chance to return. I am sure we were given a lot of counsel and who knows if the final decision was His or ours? But I bet that we had a good idea of the circumstances we would be coming into.
I believe that is true too. We don't know who's final decision things were, but we definately gave our consent. Common Consent is an eternal law. And sorry, I didn't mean to infer that 'all' those who go to LDS homes earned it, just at least some did.
I agree that some valiant parents were willing to accept difficult children to help save them & bring them back to the Father by their love & the sealing bond, as Joseph Smith said we could.
I also believe spouses often pre-mortally choose a particular spouse, knowing they might be wicked on earth, in order to save them too, by the sealing power from keeping sacred covenants, no matter what. Knowing that otherwise that spouse would have never made it back to the Celestial Kingdom, without the other spouse's love & sealing to them.
Re: Gender, Memory and the 3 Degrees of Glory
Posted: July 14th, 2010, 1:43 pm
by shadow
ndjili wrote:It seems that the Telestial and Terrestrial kingdoms are always temporary.
Where do you get this idea??????
175 North 300 East Logan, Ut 84321
Re: Gender, Memory and the 3 Degrees of Glory
Posted: July 14th, 2010, 3:03 pm
by bobhenstra
Quiet Cricket wrote:I hope number 1 is not true. That makes me sad, and seems to serve no purpose. I must see a quote to believe this one.
Number 2 is true if you believe what
Joseph Fielding Smith wrote in Doctrines of Salvation.
Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation wrote:POWERS OF PROCRATION LIMITED
Some will gain celestial bodies with all the powers of exaltation and eternal increase. These bodies will shine like the sun as our Savior.s does, as described by John [Rev 1:12-18; D&C 110:1-4; Ex 24:9-10]. Those who enter the terrestrial kingdom will have terrestrial bodies, and they will not shine like the sun, but they will be more glorious than the bodies of those who receive the telestial glory.
In both of these kingdoms there will be changes in the bodies and limitations. They will not have the power of increase, neither the power or nature to live as husbands and wives, for this will be denied them and they cannot increase.
Those who receive the exaltation in the celestial kingdom will have the "continuation of the seeds forever." [D&C 132:19.] They will live in the family relationship. In the terrestrial and in the telestial kingdoms there will be no marriage. Those who enter there will remain "separately and singly" forever. [D&C 132:15-32.]
Some of the functions in the celestial body will not appear in the terrestrial body, neither in the telestial body, and the power of procreation will be removed. I take it that men and women will, in these kingdoms, be just what the so-called Christian world expects us all to be t neither man nor woman, merely immortal beings having received the resurrection. (Doc of Salv 2:287-288;)
Number two is true as long as repentance is not included. As soon as repentance is factored in, there is no "forever" in JFS's statement.
Shagg-- er
Shadow is correct, Telestial and Terrestrial Kingdoms are temporary, as are their glories, and there is a difference. Only the Celestial Kingdom is forever. The idea that Telestial or terrestrial kingdoms or glories, last for ever is incorrect, The correct interpretation is there'll always be Telestial and terrestrial Kingdoms, just like this earth presently is and soon will become, they keep coming, there is no end to them! But there are no Telestial or Terrestrial kingdoms that last forever, that idea is a false "teaching of the fathers" doctrine. All one need do is find evidence of that teaching, you'll need study hard, it isn't there.
We exist in a Telestial condition (kingdom or glory) in mortality or in the spirit world, until we repent, and are moved on
by commandment, we exist in a Terrestrial condition (Mortal kingdom or spirit glory) until we accomplish our Temple work or someone accomplishes it for us, "then" we are helped on
only by commandment, "exactly" like it happens in the Temple,
"by commandment!" We go nowhere until the commandment is given. We cannot earn our own exaltation,
it is a gift. The idea that we earn our exaltation is also a traditions of the fathers doctrine, and is also false.
Teaching, learning, repenting and acceptance of temple ordinances continues in the Spirit World until there is no more need for Telestial Glory of this earth (Spirit Prison). Its the reason why Terrestrial beings will administer to Telestial beings, and Celestial beings will administer to Terrestrial beings, otherwise, why bother? The idea that some cannot or will not repent is also a teaching of the fathers doctrine! "All" will eventually repent, it will just take some a lot longer than it takes others. Our own ability to forgive is also at stake here, we each have to learn how to forgive completely, and learn to forgive all mankind.
Boyd K. Packer: I know of no sin that cannot be forgiven--
See Shadows post for the address to the Logan Temple!
Bob
Re: Gender, Memory and the 3 Degrees of Glory
Posted: July 14th, 2010, 3:14 pm
by Quiet Cricket
ChelC wrote:Quiet Cricket wrote:I hope number 1 is not true. That makes me sad, and seems to serve no purpose. I must see a quote to believe this one.
Number 2 is true if you believe what
Joseph Fielding Smith wrote in Doctrines of Salvation.
Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation wrote:POWERS OF PROCRATION LIMITED
Some will gain celestial bodies with all the powers of exaltation and eternal increase. These bodies will shine like the sun as our Savior.s does, as described by John [Rev 1:12-18; D&C 110:1-4; Ex 24:9-10]. Those who enter the terrestrial kingdom will have terrestrial bodies, and they will not shine like the sun, but they will be more glorious than the bodies of those who receive the telestial glory.
In both of these kingdoms there will be changes in the bodies and limitations. They will not have the power of increase, neither the power or nature to live as husbands and wives, for this will be denied them and they cannot increase.
Those who receive the exaltation in the celestial kingdom will have the "continuation of the seeds forever." [D&C 132:19.] They will live in the family relationship. In the terrestrial and in the telestial kingdoms there will be no marriage. Those who enter there will remain "separately and singly" forever. [D&C 132:15-32.]
Some of the functions in the celestial body will not appear in the terrestrial body, neither in the telestial body, and the power of procreation will be removed. I take it that men and women will, in these kingdoms, be just what the so-called Christian world expects us all to be t neither man nor woman, merely immortal beings having received the resurrection. (Doc of Salv 2:287-288;)
I don't believe that he's saying people will be hermaphroditic, just that they will not have the power of creation. I'd definitely have to see a lot more evidence to buy it. Everything I've ever read on the subject says gender is eternal, and that gender is more than the physical manifestations. I'm infertile, but I'm still a woman. I think it's easy enough to lose the power of procreation without losing a gender identity.
The two quotes don't square, so we either have prophets at odds, or there is something we're failing to grasp in one, the other, or both quotes.
I think these parts of the quote are clear, "to be
neither man nor woman, merely immortal beings having received the resurrection." and "...neither the power or
nature to live as husbands and wives..."
I know gender is eternal, and I can see it still being eternal even if that only applies to those who are exalted. Just because some are punished to live without the privilege doesn't make gender less eternal for those who merit it. I also think most doctrines are revealed to us assuming exaltation because that is what we are striving for.
Re: Gender, Memory and the 3 Degrees of Glory
Posted: July 14th, 2010, 3:36 pm
by Amore Vero
[quote="bobhenstra
In the terrestrial and in the telestial kingdoms there will be no marriage. Those who enter there will remain "separately and singly" forever. [D&C 132:15-32.]
[(Doc of Salv 2:287-288;)[/b][/quote][/quote]
Number two is true as long as repentance is not included. As soon as repentance is factored in, there is no "forever" in JFS's statement.
[/quote]
The Prophets do not agree with you. Thus what you say is not correct.
Even though 'all' unrepentant souls can & will eventually repent before they are let out of Spirit Prison & then assigned to one of the 3 kingdoms, they have 'forever' lost their opportunity for Exaltation, because that is for only those who repent & live worthy of it in 'this' life.
It would be unfair & unjust to have it any other way. It will be far easier to accept & live the Gospel in the next life. To live it in this life is very hard & requires painful sacrifice. Thus those who do live the Gospel here, earn greater blessings for all eternity. If it were not so, then no one would go through the sacrifice required in this life to gain Exaltation. Everyone would just wait & repent in an easier realm in the next life.
Joseph Fielding Smith said those who enter into the Terrestrial or Telestial kingdoms will remain there 'forever'.
Our Prophets have said over & over that we can't move up between kingdoms & that we will never receive 'Exaltation' if we don't repent & prove worthy of it here. If we get personal revelation that says we can, than we know it is from a false spirit, because it goes against what the Prophets teach.
In fact the Prophets say that to think or teach that one can achieve Exaltation in the Celestial Kingdom in the next life - 'is one of the most devilish doctrines ever taught." It's exactly what the Devil wants us to believe.
Now is the time to repent & prove ourselves worthy of Exalation & Eternal Life. The painful reality that Heavenly Father wants us to realize is that we really will live out eternity alone & single & in painful remorse, missing our former families & what we could have had if we had lived better, thus he tries to get us to repent & earn those blessings now, while we still have time.
Re: Gender, Memory and the 3 Degrees of Glory
Posted: July 14th, 2010, 5:06 pm
by John Adams
Amore Vero wrote:Our Prophets have said over & over that we can't move up between kingdoms & that we will never receive 'Exaltation' if we don't repent & prove worthy of it here. If we get personal revelation that says we can, than we know it is from a false spirit, because it goes against what the Prophets teach.
In fact the Prophets say that to think or teach that one can achieve Exaltation in the Celestial Kingdom in the next life - 'is one of the most devilish doctrines ever taught." It's exactly what the Devil wants us to believe.
Do you have exact references? The reason I ask is that in our last Ward Conference the Stake President taught the lesson in Priesthood and asked the question on if there was any "progression between kingdoms." The general answer was similar to yours in that most everyone responded that there was not. Our stake president then corrected us and said the answer he has received from the General Authorities is that "we don't know."
Re: Gender, Memory and the 3 Degrees of Glory
Posted: July 14th, 2010, 5:29 pm
by Amore Vero
The quote of it 'being one of the most devilish doctrines' was said by a Prophet but I didn't write the reference down at the time & have been trying to relocate it ever since. For it was such a great statement. I do have other G.A.'s similar statements. I may be able to find one of theirs.
But in general, I do not have ready references at hand for these things, without doing alot of digging in the quotes I have collected. We can & must all just study & pray about the truth of these things for ourselves. But if I can find some quotes for you I will post them.
And we must remember, even General Authorities & Apostles & especially local leaders, may have different opinions on different doctrine, but we are told to judge their words & opinions by what the Presidents of the Church & the Scriptures have said, to know if something is true or false.
But Joseph Fielding Smith above, who may have been the Prophet when he said it, said that those in the lower kingdoms will be there 'forever'. That's a pretty good start.
Re: Gender, Memory and the 3 Degrees of Glory
Posted: July 14th, 2010, 5:33 pm
by Epistemology
John Adams wrote:Amore Vero wrote:Our Prophets have said over & over that we can't move up between kingdoms & that we will never receive 'Exaltation' if we don't repent & prove worthy of it here. If we get personal revelation that says we can, than we know it is from a false spirit, because it goes against what the Prophets teach.
In fact the Prophets say that to think or teach that one can achieve Exaltation in the Celestial Kingdom in the next life - 'is one of the most devilish doctrines ever taught." It's exactly what the Devil wants us to believe.
Do you have exact references? The reason I ask is that in our last Ward Conference the Stake President taught the lesson in Priesthood and asked the question on if there was any "progression between kingdoms." The general answer was similar to yours in that most everyone responded that there was not. Our stake president then corrected us and said the answer he has received from the General Authorities is that "we don't know."
SECTION 131
1 In the celestial glory there are three heavens or degrees;
2 And in order to obtain the highest, a man must enter into this order of the priesthood [meaning the new and deverlasting covenant of emarriage];
3 And if he does not, he cannot obtain it.
4 He may enter into the other, but that is the end of his kingdom;
he cannot have an increase.
Re: Gender, Memory and the 3 Degrees of Glory
Posted: July 14th, 2010, 5:37 pm
by Amore Vero
Epistemology wrote:
SECTION 131
1 In the celestial glory there are three heavens or degrees;
2 And in order to obtain the highest, a man must enter into this order of the priesthood [meaning the new and deverlasting covenant of emarriage];
3 And if he does not, he cannot obtain it.
4 He may enter into the other, but that is the end of his kingdom; he cannot have an increase.
Very good. Marriage is the test for Exaltation. And we know that there is no marriage once someone has been assigned to a lower kingdom. They are single forever JFS said. So they cannot have the opportunity to prove worthy of Exaltation by keeping marriage covenants. This life is their chance to prove they can keep those covenants & love their spouse as they promised.
And for those who have died before getting married, if they lived at least Terrestrial level lives, they can return in the Millenium & prove worthy by marriage for Exaltation.
Re: Gender, Memory and the 3 Degrees of Glory
Posted: July 14th, 2010, 5:39 pm
by bobhenstra
May I suggest a complete study of the following from 2nd Nephi 26. Notice please the words "all" and "none" and how they are used by Nephi. And how it ends, we must persuade all men to repentance! How is it possible to do that "only" in mortality?
For behold my beloved brethren, I say unto you
that the Lord God worketh not in darkness.He
doeth not anything save it be for the benefit of the
world; for he loveth the world, even that he layeth
down his own life that he may draw all men unto
him.Wherefore, he commandeth none that they
shall not partake of his salvation.
Behold, doth he cry unto any, saying: Depart from
me? Behold, I say unto you, Nay; but he saith:
Come unto me all ye ends of the earth, buy milk
and honey, without money and without price.
Behold, hath he commanded any that they should
depart out of the synagogues, or out of the houses
of worship? Behold, I say unto you, Nay.
Hath he commanded any that they should not
partake of his salvation? Behold I say unto you,
Nay; but he hath given it free for all men; and he
hath commanded his people that they should
persuade all men to repentance.
Behold, hath the Lord commanded any that they
should not partake of his goodness? Behold I say
unto you, Nay; but all men are privileged the one
like unto the other, and none are forbidden!
2 Nephi 26
Your understanding of the term "this life" is also incorrect, may I suggest you study the following by Harold B. Lee;
Harold B. Lee stated: "Our existence is eternal. We use words rather loosely
when we speak of the "life before this, and this life, and the next life," as
though we were a cat of nine lives, when as a matter of fact we only have
one life. This life we speak of did not begin with mortal birth. This life does
not end with mortal death. There is something that is not created or made.
The scriptures called it "intelligence," which at a certain stage in the preexistence
was organized into a "spirit." After that spirit had grown to a
certain stature it then was given the opportunity by an all-wise Father to
come into another stage for its development. It was added upon, and after
having lived its span and having attained to its purpose in mortality, another
change took place. We go, not into another life, in fact, but into another
stage of the same life . There is something which was not created or made,
and something which does not die, and that something shall live on forever."
(Harold B. Lee, The Teachings of Harold B. Lee, page 74)
Repentance is possible after death as the following scripture demonstrates;
(Doctrine and Covenants 138:58-59.)
58 The dead who repent will be redeemed, through obedience to the ordinances of the house of God,
59 And after they have paid the penalty of their transgressions, and are washed clean, shall receive a reward according to their works, for they are heirs of salvation.
Please accomplish an in depth study of the above scriptures and statements, don't just gloss over them, study them, understand them! And then apply them as you would to your own children, as our Heavenly Father has done. He knows many of us will fail in mortality, thats why his perfect plan extends beyond mortality. The dead can and will repent, be washed clean, and stand in the presence of the Father. Nobody can stand in the presence of the Father unless he "is" washed clean. And if your clean, whats preventing you from staying with the Father, living in his presence, in your Celestial Kingdom, this earth celestialized.
There is no increase until complete repentance is accomplished, and then only by commandment.
Bob
Re: Gender, Memory and the 3 Degrees of Glory
Posted: July 14th, 2010, 5:45 pm
by shadow
I've posted this before but it applies here too...
"We see ourselves in terms of yesterday and today, our Heavenly Father sees us in terms of forever. Although we might settle for less, Heavenly Father won't, for He sees us as the glorious beings we are capable of becoming (that's what Amero refers to as "True Love). The gospel of Jesus Christ is a gospel of transformation, it takes us as men and women of the earth and refines us into men and women for the eternities." Elder Worthlin.
What's holding us back? A lack of knowledge.
Re: Gender, Memory and the 3 Degrees of Glory
Posted: July 14th, 2010, 5:47 pm
by Epistemology
Please accomplish an in depth study of the above scriptures and statements, don't just gloss over them, study them, understand them! And then apply them as you would to your own children, as our Heavenly Father has done. He knows many of us will fail in mortality, thats why his perfect plan extends beyond mortality. The dead can and will repent, be washed clean, and stand in the presence of the Father. Nobody can stand in the presence of the Father unless he "is" washed clean. And if your clean, whats preventing you from staying with the Father, living in his presence, in your Celestial Kingdom, this earth celestialized.
There is no increase until complete repentance is accomplished, and then only by commandment.
Bob[/quote]
D&C 132: 17, 19
17 For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are aangels of God forever and ever.
Re: Gender, Memory and the 3 Degrees of Glory
Posted: July 14th, 2010, 5:49 pm
by shadow
Epistemology wrote:D&C 132: 17, 19
17 For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are aangels of God forever and ever.
And what if they at some point decide to abide by His law, then what?
Re: Gender, Memory and the 3 Degrees of Glory
Posted: July 14th, 2010, 5:59 pm
by Amore Vero
I did read your whole post. I do agree that everyone will eventually repent & be washed clean & most will have to pay for their own sins in Spirit Prision. But that does not mean that they will all go on to recieve Exaltation & live with the Father. They just can't go to one of the 3 Kingdoms until they are clean.
Christ did offer his 'Salvation' freely, & that free gift included overcoming physical death for us & living on through eternity in whatever kingdom they earned by their deeds & righteousness here on earth. Salvation, as this scripture mentions, is not talking about Exaltation, but Salvation in at least one of the beautiful kingdoms God has prepared.
I believe that Nephi was inviting all men to come & repent & take advantage of this great gift Christ has given to us. But I read nothing that says Christ is offering Exaltation freely to all, especially if they don't repent in this life. But Christ does offer everyone some level of salvation, some level of eternal glory, for just being willing to come down to this earth & live, whether they were wicked or righteous while here.
And while of course our lives go on forever, as Pres. Lee said, he does not say that we can earn Exaltation in the next life. it is clear from Prophets that 'this' part of our eternal existence is the most important determining where we end up hereafter.
To be 'heirs of Salvation' again means we will receive some level of glory, but not necessarily the highest. After we repent, even in the next life, we can then receive ordinances, like baptism, etc. & recieve some level of glory, some level of Salvation according to our 'deeds in the flesh', what we earned, whether Telestial or Terrestrial. Those of the Celestial won't even go to Spirit Prison to repent. They will go straight to Paradise after they die & await their Exaltations there.
Re: Gender, Memory and the 3 Degrees of Glory
Posted: July 14th, 2010, 6:00 pm
by Epistemology
shadow wrote:Epistemology wrote:D&C 132: 17, 19
17 For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are aangels of God forever and ever.
And what if they at some point decide to abide by His law, then what?
I think a good example and reference to look at would be the same that didn't keep their first estate, that were removed from Gods presence with Lucifer. they have no more increase. Some of the 1/3 of the host of heaven probably wish they had another chance, but they don't.
Those that are dead can repent and prob will. But that doesn't mean they will be exalted. Justice will still be served with a lot more mercy, but there will be souls that after repentance, justice will say they may be Terrestrial or Telestial Beings. Forever.
Be great if I'm wrong and ALL who kept their first estate will make it back, but we have been told, I believe, in scripture and modern word that not all will make it back. And I do believe that NOT ALL WILL MAKE IT does not mean, eventually.
Re: Gender, Memory and the 3 Degrees of Glory
Posted: July 14th, 2010, 6:09 pm
by Amore Vero
shadow wrote:Epistemology wrote:D&C 132: 17, 19
17 For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are aangels of God forever and ever.
And what if they at some point decide to abide by His law, then what?
The problem is there is no more opportunity to be married for them. They are single where they are, even in the lower levels of the Celestial k. It is marriage & having children & raising them well, that is the test to prove we are worthy of Exaltation. They do not get this chance in the lower levels of the Cel.K. so they can never prove themselves. Nor can anyone else in lower kingdoms.
Thus, it is so vital to keep our marriage covenants & be good parents here in this life. The Prophets have said that our marriage covenants & our spouse is more precious to us than our life, whether they are righteous or not. Thus we see why. For keeping our covenants to our spouse & loving them, no matter what, is our only sure ticket into the Celestial Kingdom.
Re: Gender, Memory and the 3 Degrees of Glory
Posted: July 14th, 2010, 6:20 pm
by serenitylala
Re: Gender, Memory and the 3 Degrees of Glory
Posted: July 14th, 2010, 6:33 pm
by shadow
Amore Vero wrote: For keeping our covenants to our spouse & loving them, no matter what, is our only sure ticket into the Celestial Kingdom.
Actually John 14:6 is our ticket. D&C 35:2 is good too
Re: Gender, Memory and the 3 Degrees of Glory
Posted: July 14th, 2010, 6:41 pm
by Amore Vero
shadow wrote:Amore Vero wrote: For keeping our covenants to our spouse & loving them, no matter what, is our only sure ticket into the Celestial Kingdom.
Actually John 14:6 is our ticket. D&C 35:2 is good too
Very True, Christ makes it even possible that we can get a ticket there. But even he can't get us the whole way there to the top. But the covenants he asks us to make & keep will.
Re: Gender, Memory and the 3 Degrees of Glory
Posted: July 14th, 2010, 6:53 pm
by bobhenstra
Amore Vero wrote:I did read your whole post. I do agree that everyone will eventually repent & be washed clean & most will have to pay for their own sins in Spirit Prision. But that does not mean that they will all go on to recieve Exaltation & live with the Father. They just can't go to one of the 3 Kingdoms until they are clean.
Christ did offer his 'Salvation' freely, & that free gift included overcoming physical death for us & living on through eternity in whatever kingdom they earned by their deeds & righteousness here on earth. Salvation, as this scripture mentions, is not talking about Exaltation, but Salvation in at least one of the beautiful kingdoms God has prepared.
I believe that Nephi was inviting all men to come & repent & take advantage of this great gift Christ has given to us. But I read nothing that says Christ is offering Exaltation freely to all, especially if they don't repent in this life. But Christ does offer everyone some level of salvation, some level of eternal glory, for just being willing to come down to this earth & live, whether they were wicked or righteous while here.
And while of course our lives go on forever, as Pres. Lee said, he does not say that we can earn Exaltation in the next life. it is clear from Prophets that 'this' part of our eternal existence is the most important determining where we end up hereafter.
To be 'heirs of Salvation' again means we will receive some level of glory, but not necessarily the highest. After we repent, even in the next life, we can then receive ordinances, like baptism, etc. & recieve some level of glory, some level of Salvation according to our 'deeds in the flesh', what we earned, whether Telestial or Terrestrial. Those of the Celestial won't even go to Spirit Prison to repent. They will go straight to Paradise after they die & await their Exaltations there.
Do we not do temple work for the dead? Does that temple work include eternal marriage?
As far as Salvation is concerned, consider the following by Joseph Smith; Please, read carefully!
The Prophet Joseph; "Salvation consists in the glory, authority, majesty, power and dominion which Jehovah possesses and in no thing else; and no being can possess it but himself (Jehovah) or one like him."--- The Savior of all mankind!
Bob
Re: Gender, Memory and the 3 Degrees of Glory
Posted: July 14th, 2010, 8:45 pm
by Amore Vero
bobhenstra wrote:
Do we not do temple work for the dead? Does that temple work include eternal marriage?
As far as Salvation is concerned, consider the following by Joseph Smith; Please, read carefully!
The Prophet Joseph; "Salvation consists in the glory, authority, majesty, power and dominion which Jehovah possesses and in no thing else; and no being can possess it but himself (Jehovah) or one like him."--- The Savior of all mankind!
Bob
Bob,
Sealing people together in the temple does not guarantee that they will really be sealed in the next life. The Prophet's have taught that it is based upon if they were righteous enough on earth to merit such a sealing, no matter if they repent in Spirit Prison. We do the sealings incase they were righteous & earned it. If they weren't righteous on earth, the sealing is totally invalid. The same is true for living couples. Their marriage & sealings are only valid & eternal if they have lived righteously.
Other Prophets have talked about the 2 different meanings of the word 'Salvation. There are other Prophets who have said 'Salvation' for some is just being in a lower Kingdom. We can get very misled if we take just one quote & base a whole doctrine on it, it's just not the way Prophet's usually work. They teach line upon line, here alittle & there alittle. Rarely if ever, do they teach everything about a particular doctrine even one talk. You must study out several different Prophets & their teachings & collect all their puzzle pieces of truth on a certain subject & put their quotes & scriptures together to start to really understand the whole meaning of a doctrine.
And even then the Spirit has to fill in the blanks that even the Prophets left out. Without the Spirit to tell us the other half of a doctrine, we will never learn it all from just the Prophets, or we will misinterpret & twist what they say. The Holy Spirit is vital, along with the words of the Prophets. As one Prophet said, "It takes revelation to understand revelation."
We really don't need to even be worried about this subject anyway, for as long as we are alive, we can still work to secure our Exaltation here & now. All this worry need never be an issue. I doubt you plan on chancing it & waiting to repent til the next life, hoping your belief is true.
Re: Gender, Memory and the 3 Degrees of Glory
Posted: July 14th, 2010, 8:53 pm
by Quiet Cricket
Amore Vero wrote:Do you have exact references? The reason I ask is that in our last Ward Conference the Stake President taught the lesson in Priesthood and asked the question on if there was any "progression between kingdoms." The general answer was similar to yours in that most everyone responded that there was not. Our stake president then corrected us and said the answer he has received from the General Authorities is that "we don't know."
We talked about this extensively in other threads. It's very interesting so we keep coming back to it. Here are some references I posted in one of the other threads:
Spencer W. Kimball, Miracle of Forgiveness, 243-244. (Mel. Pr'd manual, 1979-1980, 146. See also Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, 50.) After a person has been assigned to his place in the kingdom, either in the telestial, the terrestrial or the celestial, or to his exaltation, he will never advance from his assigned glory to another glory. That is eternal!
Bruce R. McConkie, Doctrinal New Testament Commentary 1:196. It is from these revelations which recite that resurrected beings come forth with different kinds of bodies [D&C 76; 88:16-33; 1 Cor 15:35-58; Mormon Doctrine, 1st ed., 573-579] that we learn a few of the many revealed reasons why there is not and cannot be progression from one degree of glory to another after the resurrection.
George Albert Smith, Conference Report, October 1945, 172. There are some people who have supposed that if we are quickened telestial bodies that eventually, throughout the ages of eternity, we will continue to progress until we will find our place in the celestial kingdom, but the Scriptures and the revelations of God have said that those who are quickened telestial bodies cannot come where God and Christ dwell, worlds without end.
Bruce R. McConkie, "The Seven Deadly Heresies" (Tape Transcript), BYU, 1 June 1980. Heresy number five. There are those who say that there is progression from one kingdom to another in the eternal worlds or, if not, that lower kingdoms eventually progress to where higher kingdoms once were. This is worse than false! It is an evil and pernicious doctrine.
It lulls men into a state of carnal security. It causes them to say: "God is so merciful; surely he will save us all eventually. If we do not gain the celestial kingdom now, eventually we will, so why worry?" It lets people live a life of sin here and now with the hope that they will be saved eventually.
The true doctrine is that all men will be resurrected, but they will come forth in the resurrection with different kinds of bodies-some celestial, others terrestrial, others telestial, and some with bodies incapable of standing any degree of glory. The body we receive in the resurrection determines the glory we receive in the kingdoms that are prepared.
Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation 2:31-34. No Advancement from Lower to Higher. It has been asked if it is possible for one who inherits the telestial glory to advance in time to the celestial glory?
The answer to this question is, No!
The scriptures are clear on this point. Speaking of those who go to the telestial kingdom, the revelation says: "And they shall be servants of the Most High; but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end."
Notwithstanding this statement, those who do not comprehend the word of the Lord argue that while this is true, that they cannot go where God is "worlds without end," yet in time they will get where God was, but he will have gone on to other heights.
This is false reasoning, illogical, and creates mischief in making people think they may procrastinate their repentance, but in course of time they will reach exaltation in celestial glory.
Kingdoms Progress in Different Directions. Now let us see how faulty this reasoning is. If in time those who enter the telestial glory may progress till they reach the stage in which the celestial is in now--then they are in celestial glory, are they not, even if the celestial has advanced? That being the case (I state this for the argument only, for it is not true), then they partake of all the blessings which are now celestial. That means that they become gods, have exaltation, gain the fulness of the Father, and receive a continuation of the "seeds forever." The Lord, however, has said that these blessings, which are celestial blessings, they may never have; they are barred forever!
The celestial and terrestrial and telestial glories, I have heard compared to the wheels on a train. The second and third may, and will, reach the place where the first was, but the first will have moved on and will still be just the same distance in advance of them. This illustration is not true! The wheels do not run on the same track, and do not go in the same direction. The terrestrial and the telestial are limited in their powers of advancement, worlds without end.
Re: Gender, Memory and the 3 Degrees of Glory
Posted: July 14th, 2010, 9:56 pm
by bobhenstra
Amore Vero wrote:bobhenstra wrote:
Do we not do temple work for the dead? Does that temple work include eternal marriage?
As far as Salvation is concerned, consider the following by Joseph Smith; Please, read carefully!
The Prophet Joseph; "Salvation consists in the glory, authority, majesty, power and dominion which Jehovah possesses and in no thing else; and no being can possess it but himself (Jehovah) or one like him."--- The Savior of all mankind!
Bob
Bob,
Sealing people together in the temple does not guarantee that they will really be sealed in the next life. The Prophet's have taught that it is based upon if they were righteous enough on earth to merit such a sealing, no matter if they repent in Spirit Prison. We do the sealings incase they were righteous & earned it. If they weren't righteous on earth, the sealing is totally invalid. The same is true for living couples. Their marriage & sealings are only valid & eternal if they have lived righteously.
Other Prophets have talked about the 2 different meanings of the word 'Salvation. There are other Prophets who have said 'Salvation' for some is just being in a lower Kingdom. We can get very misled if we take just one quote & base a whole doctrine on it, it's just not the way Prophet's usually work. They teach line upon line, here alittle & there alittle. Rarely if ever, do they teach everything about a particular doctrine even one talk. You must study out several different Prophets & their teachings & collect all their puzzle pieces of truth on a certain subject & put their quotes & scriptures together to start to really understand the whole meaning of a doctrine.
And even then the Spirit has to fill in the blanks that even the Prophets left out. Without the Spirit to tell us the other half of a doctrine, we will never learn it all from just the Prophets, or we will misinterpret & twist what they say. The Holy Spirit is vital, along with the words of the Prophets. As one Prophet said, "It takes revelation to understand revelation."
We really don't need to even be worried about this subject anyway, for as long as we are alive, we can still work to secure our Exaltation here & now. All this worry need never be an issue. I doubt you plan on chancing it & waiting to repent til the next life, hoping your belief is true.
Study is needed here. The Prophet Joseph Smith started this whole thing, "he" made the above statement about salvation! Everybody except Christ, who has ever lived on this earth is a sinner. Each of us has good works and bad works (sins) After we have repented of our bad works (sins) and pronounced clean, all we have left are our good works, its those works we'll be judged by, not the sins we've been forgiven of! Your ideas sound like Christ is still remembering our sins.
Our Savior has promised, after we repent, he'll remember our sins no more! Is he lying? He himself has said, and his words quoted over three hundred times by prophets, that he is the Savior of "all" mankind How can he be the Savior of "ALL" mankind if "some" of mankind doesn't repent? Is he not the Savior of the world as the words of Nephi explained?
Those in the lower degrees of glory stay there until they repent and receive forgiveness, however long it takes, their agency, their choice, its that simple! For they "shall be," and are "Heirs of salvation!" Why do we insist on making it harder? There'll be some who suffer greatly in Spirit Prison, their minds dwelling on their sins so much they'll suffer as if their minds were being burned with hot molten sulfur (brimstone). Some of our spiritual brothers and sisters will suffer for a long time. But "we" still in mortality will do their temple work. And when its time, when they have been taught, have learned, then repented, some of us in the spirit world will be there to help move them along. they'll accept baptism, the temple work done for them, It'll happen just like it happens in the temple! He who has not yet agreed to eternal marriage will eventually repent and agree.
Our perfect Father in Heaven has a perfect plan for us his children, and we are "Children of the Most High!" Mortality is part of that perfect plan, perfection does not fail! Serving others and enduring to the end is the plan we should follow here, doing good works. Everytime we help someone we are forgiven of some sin or sins, depending on "our" level of sacrifice to help.
There are three degrees of glory in the Celestial Kingdom, I'll bet "you" can figure out their names.
Bob
Re: Gender, Memory and the 3 Degrees of Glory
Posted: July 14th, 2010, 10:39 pm
by bobhenstra
Quiet Cricket wrote:Amore Vero wrote:Do you have exact references? The reason I ask is that in our last Ward Conference the Stake President taught the lesson in Priesthood and asked the question on if there was any "progression between kingdoms." The general answer was similar to yours in that most everyone responded that there was not. Our stake president then corrected us and said the answer he has received from the General Authorities is that "we don't know."
We talked about this extensively in other threads. It's very interesting so we keep coming back to it. Here are some references I posted in one of the other threads:
Spencer W. Kimball, Miracle of Forgiveness, 243-244. (Mel. Pr'd manual, 1979-1980, 146. See also Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, 50.) After a person has been assigned to his place in the kingdom, either in the telestial, the terrestrial or the celestial, or to his exaltation, he will never advance from his assigned glory to another glory. That is eternal!
Absolutely correct! No one can advance by his own merits, we cannot earn salvation, its a gift! By your interpretation of President Kimballs words, your suggesting we have to earn salvation, which by the prophet's own words "is" exaltation. And since salvation, eternal life, exaltation "is" a gift, and cannot be earned, where do you suppose we'll be assigned?
Bruce R. McConkie, Doctrinal New Testament Commentary 1:196. It is from these revelations which recite that resurrected beings come forth with different kinds of bodies [D&C 76; 88:16-33; 1 Cor 15:35-58; Mormon Doctrine, 1st ed., 573-579] that we learn a few of the many revealed reasons why there is not and cannot be progression from one degree of glory to another after the resurrection.
Absolutely right! there is no advancement from one degree to another by our own merit, salvation is a gift, we cannot earn salvation!
George Albert Smith, Conference Report, October 1945, 172. There are some people who have supposed that if we are quickened telestial bodies that eventually, throughout the ages of eternity, we will continue to progress until we will find our place in the celestial kingdom, but the Scriptures and the revelations of God have said that those who are quickened telestial bodies cannot come where God and Christ dwell, worlds without end.
Where God and Christ dwell, worlds without end! You currently have a Telestial body, mortality is your current assignment, by your own merit and effort, please place yourself in the Celestial kingdom "now" and return and give us some direction. Salvation is a gift, It cannot be earned.
Bruce R. McConkie, "The Seven Deadly Heresies" (Tape Transcript), BYU, 1 June 1980. Heresy number five. There are those who say that there is progression from one kingdom to another in the eternal worlds or, if not, that lower kingdoms eventually progress to where higher kingdoms once were. This is worse than false! It is an evil and pernicious doctrine.
Exactly right, as Elder McConkie states the heresy, its an evil and pernicious doctrine. Are we advanced by commandment in the Temple? It happens the same way with us, all of us, after we have repented!
It lulls men into a state of carnal security. It causes them to say: "God is so merciful; surely he will save us all eventually. If we do not gain the celestial kingdom now, eventually we will, so why worry?" It lets people live a life of sin here and now with the hope that they will be saved eventually.
Lol, I suppose if it keeps you on what you consider the straight and narrow, then its ok!
The true doctrine is that all men will be resurrected, but they will come forth in the resurrection with different kinds of bodies-some celestial, others terrestrial, others telestial, and some with bodies incapable of standing any degree of glory. The body we receive in the resurrection determines the glory we receive in the kingdoms that are prepared.
Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation 2:31-34. No Advancement from Lower to Higher. It has been asked if it is possible for one who inherits the telestial glory to advance in time to the celestial glory?
The answer to this question is, No!
In speaking face to face with Joseph Fielding Smith, he stated perfectly clear he meant by our own merit.
The scriptures are clear on this point. Speaking of those who go to the telestial kingdom, the revelation says: "And they shall be servants of the Most High; but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end."
Everyone in the Celestial Kingdom will be a servant, Christ is the greatest servant of them all! It'll be my honor to be compared to my Savior as a servant.
Notwithstanding this statement, those who do not comprehend the word of the Lord argue that while this is true, that they cannot go where God is "worlds without end," yet in time they will get where God was, but he will have gone on to other heights.
This is false reasoning, illogical, and creates mischief in making people think they may procrastinate their repentance, but in course of time they will reach exaltation in celestial glory.
Repentance has to happen, in mortality or in the spirit world, it has to happen! The gift has to be received!
Kingdoms Progress in Different Directions. Now let us see how faulty this reasoning is. If in time those who enter the telestial glory may progress till they reach the stage in which the celestial is in now--then they are in celestial glory, are they not, even if the celestial has advanced? That being the case (I state this for the argument only, for it is not true), then they partake of all the blessings which are now celestial. That means that they become gods, have exaltation, gain the fulness of the Father, and receive a continuation of the "seeds forever." The Lord, however, has said that these blessings, which are celestial blessings, they may never have; they are barred forever!
The celestial and terrestrial and telestial glories, I have heard compared to the wheels on a train. The second and third may, and will, reach the place where the first was, but the first will have moved on and will still be just the same distance in advance of them. This illustration is not true! The wheels do not run on the same track, and do not go in the same direction. The terrestrial and the telestial are limited in their powers of advancement, worlds without end.
Because Salvation which is exaltation is a gift, we cannot accept the gift until the resurrection.
Bob
