LDS Freedom Forum

Jason wrote:should instead be focused on getting out of debt.....which also happens to be the prophetic counsel given for the past 50 to 100 years.

Mahonri wrote:

Jason wrote:should instead be focused on getting out of debt.....which also happens to be the prophetic counsel given for the past 50 to 100 years.

Actually 178 years
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/78/14#14

Jason wrote:

Mahonri wrote:

Jason wrote:should instead be focused on getting out of debt.....which also happens to be the prophetic counsel given for the past 50 to 100 years.

Actually 178 years
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/78/14#14

Thank you for the clarification!

Jason wrote:LOL Nice twist. Like saying an ounce of wheat will always get you the same amount of goods and its only the amount of FRN's that change......or substitute wheat for tulips!
....precious metals are dead last!

Jason wrote:Only useful as a hedge for storage of wealth.....not guaranteed but with a fairly strong historical track record.

LittleLion wrote:When there is plenty of food and water and there is hyper inflation, the relative value of goods and services stays the same but your money and labor are reduced so you cannot buy as much is this not correct?
Correct as I understand it.

But if you already have the G/S before inflation hits, you will be able to trade it for many many more FRN's or the same amount of commodities as you did before inflation will you not?
Maybe....maybe not. In theory if everything was in complete isolation then you would be correct. But with fluctuating supply/demand & speculation reality can be a different beast.

The same goes for deflation only in reverse.
In theory....reality is there is a substantial speculation factor. For example we had a high rate of inflation from 2000 to 2007 due to the rapid accumulation of debt which played a major role in the rise in gold prices.....but we've been in deflation since 2008 and now fear/greed (speculation) is pushing the price higher. Also there is a substantial amount of manipulation so its a mad wild guess as to what the real market value is - which ultimately is whatever a buyer and seller agree on.

I am not talking about labor or money from labor I am talking about a store of wealth like G/S when there are still plenty of the basic necessities for life.
Isn't that like burying the talent in the ground? It doesn't multiply, earn a profit, etc. Simply a hedge (speculation) against the future and possible hyper-inflation (which I know you have stated). The problem is the vast majority have no business speculating.

You said it yourself

Jason wrote:Only useful as a hedge for storage of wealth.....not guaranteed but with a fairly strong historical track record.

This is what I am talking about.
I understand....but there is no guarantee thus its speculation. Now if it was prophetic counsel then you could take it to the bank! ...or if you got specific guidance from the Spirit to stockpile gold/silver...then by all means take it to the bank. In a day and age of speculation and manipulation while picking up speed on the downward slope of a deflationary spiral...gold/silver seems like an awful risky bet to me....so I try to point that out.....but it's just my opinion fwiw....

And when I say Beans Bullets and Band aids it is a metaphor for at least a years supply of every needful thing or in other words follow the Prophet. If are able then by all means get the production end going with many people to help in a secure defendable location. But only do all things as you are able. I know I started this thread by posting an interesting article but people have to have some sense of there own abilities and needs and what is important for them. You should know me better than that my friend.
I recognize that....and am mostly making my comments to the unseen bystanders. Hopefully I haven't created any offense by my comments.

Jason wrote:Also there is a substantial amount of manipulation so its a mad wild guess as to what the real market value is - which ultimately is whatever a buyer and seller agree on.

Jason wrote:Now if it was prophetic counsel then you could take it to the bank! ...or if you got specific guidance from the Spirit to stockpile gold/silver...then by all means take it to the bank. In a day and age of speculation and manipulation while picking up speed on the downward slope of a deflationary spiral...gold/silver seems like an awful risky bet to me....so I try to point that out.....but it's just my opinion fwiw....

Jason wrote:Hopefully I haven't created any offense by my comments.

LittleLion wrote:

Jason wrote:Also there is a substantial amount of manipulation so its a mad wild guess as to what the real market value is - which ultimately is whatever a buyer and seller agree on.

I agree with this. And, part of a very good BBB supply is a cache of cash. Money is money except when it isn't, in the case of worthless paper. I guarantee you there will be people who are willing to barter with G/S after the collapse for at least an unspecified time period, a window to opportunity if you will. And what are you talking about putting a talent in the ground? LOL Check this out.... 4 years ago we made a tidy sum in my buisness. We did not put money in the bank we bought physical G/S with it. If we would have put money in the bank we would have lost because inflation outpaced the savings interest rates. But our G/S actually made 25% so when we paid taxes we actually paid with 35% less FRN's after converting the G/S we needed to cut the IRS a check because we didnt lose any money by keeping it in a bank and we made money off the G/S we bought with older FRN's. I hope that made sense but the bottom line is we made a great deal of money off of G/S then. Actually I have been buying G/S since G was 330/oz and S was 4.50/oz so we are way way ahead since we started buying G/S. Not quite the same as burying talents eh?

Bloody internet communication. I'll try to explain in greater clarity. First your gain was a trading gain....not a production gain. Side note: I have recommended gold at several points in the past decade....wish I had been on top of it back in 2000/2001. The last time I made a major recommendation to an employer or others was in the summer of 2006 when it was fluctuating around $400 to $500 oz. Anyways I congratulate you on the win. IMO the next 4 years will be the opposite.

In terms of the parable of the talents - I've been told there are three kinds of dollars - solar, paper, mining. Basically people that make money from the sun (farmers, etc), people that make money from trading (arbitrage, etc.), and people that make money from resources (oil, coal, natural gas, copper, gold,etc). One could probably add to that scenario production dollars (manufacturing....taking a raw input and creating a finished product that adds substantial value).

The money you made from your gold purchase was trading dollars. You bought gold and sat on it....then due to circumstances (government dropping the cost of debt thus flushing the market with debt thus causing inflation) the value relative to FRNs increased. The gold didn't multiply or produce anything. It simply sat. Thus analogous to burying it in the ground to retrieve at a later date.

Now compare that with purchasing a small lot for farming that produced crops and will continue to produce crops. Or two rabbits that have now created 1000 rabbits. Or anything else that produces and will continue to produce into the future....like buying a couple tons of wheat and planting it which in turn produces a hundred tons of wheat.

IMO Zion will be built on production....not trading games....thus the perceived value of such things like gold/silver will only be useful as how they relate to production (value added).....not games (currency or otherwise).

In January of 1980 silver went to 50/oz. My parents had been buying junk silver since 1965 instead of stocks and bonds. After they converted most of their silver, they paid their house off after just buying it a few years earlier and still had over 10 years wages in which they turned into silver again after the prices went back down to normal a few weeks later.

Jason wrote:Now if it was prophetic counsel then you could take it to the bank! ...or if you got specific guidance from the Spirit to stockpile gold/silver...then by all means take it to the bank. In a day and age of speculation and manipulation while picking up speed on the downward slope of a deflationary spiral...gold/silver seems like an awful risky bet to me....so I try to point that out.....but it's just my opinion fwiw....

Well, let me see, the Prophets have been saying put away every needful thing including money. I cannot think of better guidance.

Jason wrote:Hopefully I haven't created any offense by my comments.

Nah.... No offense taken... I just like to stir the pile every once in awhile.

Jason wrote:Bloody internet communication. I'll try to explain in greater clarity. First your gain was a trading gain....not a production gain. Side note: I have recommended gold at several points in the past decade....wish I had been on top of it back in 2000/2001. The last time I made a major recommendation to an employer or others was in the summer of 2006 when it was fluctuating around $400 to $500 oz. Anyways I congratulate you on the win. IMO the next 4 years will be the opposite.

In terms of the parable of the talents - I've been told there are three kinds of dollars - solar, paper, mining. Basically people that make money from the sun (farmers, etc), people that make money from trading (arbitrage, etc.), and people that make money from resources (oil, coal, natural gas, copper, gold,etc). One could probably add to that scenario production dollars (manufacturing....taking a raw input and creating a finished product that adds substantial value).

The money you made from your gold purchase was trading dollars. You bought gold and sat on it....then due to circumstances (government dropping the cost of debt thus flushing the market with debt thus causing inflation) the value relative to FRNs increased. The gold didn't multiply or produce anything. It simply sat. Thus analogous to burying it in the ground to retrieve at a later date.

Now compare that with purchasing a small lot for farming that produced crops and will continue to produce crops. Or two rabbits that have now created 1000 rabbits. Or anything else that produces and will continue to produce into the future....like buying a couple tons of wheat and planting it which in turn produces a hundred tons of wheat.

IMO Zion will be built on production....not trading games....thus the perceived value of such things like gold/silver will only be useful as how they relate to production (value added).....not games (currency or otherwise).

LittleLion wrote:

Jason wrote:Bloody internet communication. I'll try to explain in greater clarity. First your gain was a trading gain....not a production gain. Side note: I have recommended gold at several points in the past decade....wish I had been on top of it back in 2000/2001. The last time I made a major recommendation to an employer or others was in the summer of 2006 when it was fluctuating around $400 to $500 oz. Anyways I congratulate you on the win. IMO the next 4 years will be the opposite.

In terms of the parable of the talents - I've been told there are three kinds of dollars - solar, paper, mining. Basically people that make money from the sun (farmers, etc), people that make money from trading (arbitrage, etc.), and people that make money from resources (oil, coal, natural gas, copper, gold,etc). One could probably add to that scenario production dollars (manufacturing....taking a raw input and creating a finished product that adds substantial value).

The money you made from your gold purchase was trading dollars. You bought gold and sat on it....then due to circumstances (government dropping the cost of debt thus flushing the market with debt thus causing inflation) the value relative to FRNs increased. The gold didn't multiply or produce anything. It simply sat. Thus analogous to burying it in the ground to retrieve at a later date.

Now compare that with purchasing a small lot for farming that produced crops and will continue to produce crops. Or two rabbits that have now created 1000 rabbits. Or anything else that produces and will continue to produce into the future....like buying a couple tons of wheat and planting it which in turn produces a hundred tons of wheat.

IMO Zion will be built on production....not trading games....thus the perceived value of such things like gold/silver will only be useful as how they relate to production (value added).....not games (currency or otherwise).

Most excellent way to put it my friend. Very lucid indeed! Producers are not moochers and never were eh! I have always been a producer by adding value to whatever I set my labor/knowledge to. I agree with a production based Zion. My ancestors also agree with this as they picked the honey bee for the symbol representing their industrious production based nature. Except I do take exception with the parable of the talent as there were no limits put on how they could increase their talants. I'm sure breaking the law or doing something nefarious was not okay. I am also sure they could not just bury it or sit on it like I did to create gain because the opportunity was not available like it was to me. But using your head and doing anything that will create gain no matter how its done is fair acceptable to the Lord as long as you obey his laws.

In almost any situation where we have a semi collapse of society people will be obligated to produce and thank goodness most people can by putting their shoulder to the wheel. But, by designing that wheel, and that yoke that makes it easier on your shoulder, and the specialized clothing and footwear for pushing wheels, you also create much value by making your fellow beings happy and comfortable while working.

There are many ways to be of value and produce in an open honest righteous society my friend.

LittleLion wrote:

Jason wrote:Bloody internet communication. I'll try to explain in greater clarity. First your gain was a trading gain....not a production gain. Side note: I have recommended gold at several points in the past decade....wish I had been on top of it back in 2000/2001. The last time I made a major recommendation to an employer or others was in the summer of 2006 when it was fluctuating around $400 to $500 oz. Anyways I congratulate you on the win. IMO the next 4 years will be the opposite.

In terms of the parable of the talents - I've been told there are three kinds of dollars - solar, paper, mining. Basically people that make money from the sun (farmers, etc), people that make money from trading (arbitrage, etc.), and people that make money from resources (oil, coal, natural gas, copper, gold,etc). One could probably add to that scenario production dollars (manufacturing....taking a raw input and creating a finished product that adds substantial value).

The money you made from your gold purchase was trading dollars. You bought gold and sat on it....then due to circumstances (government dropping the cost of debt thus flushing the market with debt thus causing inflation) the value relative to FRNs increased. The gold didn't multiply or produce anything. It simply sat. Thus analogous to burying it in the ground to retrieve at a later date.

Now compare that with purchasing a small lot for farming that produced crops and will continue to produce crops. Or two rabbits that have now created 1000 rabbits. Or anything else that produces and will continue to produce into the future....like buying a couple tons of wheat and planting it which in turn produces a hundred tons of wheat.

IMO Zion will be built on production....not trading games....thus the perceived value of such things like gold/silver will only be useful as how they relate to production (value added).....not games (currency or otherwise).

Most excellent way to put it my friend. Very lucid indeed! Producers are not moochers and never were eh! I have always been a producer by adding value to whatever I set my labor/knowledge to. I agree with a production based Zion. My ancestors also agree with this as they picked the honey bee for the symbol representing their industrious production based nature. Except I do take exception with the parable of the talent as there were no limits put on how they could increase their talants. I'm sure breaking the law or doing something nefarious was not okay. I am also sure they could not just bury it or sit on it like I did to create gain because the opportunity was not available like it was to me. But using your head and doing anything that will create gain no matter how its done is fair acceptable to the Lord as long as you obey his laws.

In almost any situation where we have a semi collapse of society people will be obligated to produce and thank goodness most people can by putting their shoulder to the wheel. But, by designing that wheel, and that yoke that makes it easier on your shoulder, and the specialized clothing and footwear for pushing wheels, you also create much value by making your fellow beings happy and comfortable while working.

There are many ways to be of value and produce in an open honest righteous society my friend.

Original_Intent wrote:

LittleLion wrote:

Jason wrote:Bloody internet communication. I'll try to explain in greater clarity. First your gain was a trading gain....not a production gain. Side note: I have recommended gold at several points in the past decade....wish I had been on top of it back in 2000/2001. The last time I made a major recommendation to an employer or others was in the summer of 2006 when it was fluctuating around $400 to $500 oz. Anyways I congratulate you on the win. IMO the next 4 years will be the opposite.

In terms of the parable of the talents - I've been told there are three kinds of dollars - solar, paper, mining. Basically people that make money from the sun (farmers, etc), people that make money from trading (arbitrage, etc.), and people that make money from resources (oil, coal, natural gas, copper, gold,etc). One could probably add to that scenario production dollars (manufacturing....taking a raw input and creating a finished product that adds substantial value).

The money you made from your gold purchase was trading dollars. You bought gold and sat on it....then due to circumstances (government dropping the cost of debt thus flushing the market with debt thus causing inflation) the value relative to FRNs increased. The gold didn't multiply or produce anything. It simply sat. Thus analogous to burying it in the ground to retrieve at a later date.

Now compare that with purchasing a small lot for farming that produced crops and will continue to produce crops. Or two rabbits that have now created 1000 rabbits. Or anything else that produces and will continue to produce into the future....like buying a couple tons of wheat and planting it which in turn produces a hundred tons of wheat.

IMO Zion will be built on production....not trading games....thus the perceived value of such things like gold/silver will only be useful as how they relate to production (value added).....not games (currency or otherwise).

Most excellent way to put it my friend. Very lucid indeed! Producers are not moochers and never were eh! I have always been a producer by adding value to whatever I set my labor/knowledge to. I agree with a production based Zion. My ancestors also agree with this as they picked the honey bee for the symbol representing their industrious production based nature. Except I do take exception with the parable of the talent as there were no limits put on how they could increase their talants. I'm sure breaking the law or doing something nefarious was not okay. I am also sure they could not just bury it or sit on it like I did to create gain because the opportunity was not available like it was to me. But using your head and doing anything that will create gain no matter how its done is fair acceptable to the Lord as long as you obey his laws.

In almost any situation where we have a semi collapse of society people will be obligated to produce and thank goodness most people can by putting their shoulder to the wheel. But, by designing that wheel, and that yoke that makes it easier on your shoulder, and the specialized clothing and footwear for pushing wheels, you also create much value by making your fellow beings happy and comfortable while working.

There are many ways to be of value and produce in an open honest righteous society my friend.

Yea, verily! I have been struggling for a while wondering when people are going to GET IT that wealth is not little pieces of printed paper - EXACTLY the point you are making. And the fact that with our technology it would not even mean that people would need to work from sunup to sundown as they used to. If people would shake off all the illusions we could all be doing quite well, we would be able to provide well for those UNABLE to provide for themselves, and we would have plenty of time for attending to things a bit more important. But maybe based on how most people use the free time they have, maybe it would not be a good thing to give them more free time. Maybe we need to be a "sweat of thy brow" society- literally.

Jason wrote: It is absolutely amazing how much technology has been "shelved" over the past century....all in the name of corporate profits. I can't hardly wait for Zion.....going to blossom far beyond our wildest imaginations!

John Adams wrote:

Jason wrote: It is absolutely amazing how much technology has been "shelved" over the past century....all in the name of corporate profits. I can't hardly wait for Zion.....going to blossom far beyond our wildest imaginations!

Agreed!