Women's Right to Vote

[A Me]

This is a fascinating discussion and good points have been made all around. I think there's a lot more agreement here than appears at first glance.

I'm really intrigued, Amore, by the way you've described submission. I think a big part of the confusion is that you're using the word in a way that doesn't fit with the connotation.

According to my dictionary (Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, 11th edition) the word "submit" means:

(vt) 1a. to yield to governance or authority, b: to subject to a condition, treatment or operation, 2: to present or propose to another for review, consideration, or decision; to deliver formally, 3: to put forward as an opinion or contention
(vi) 1a: to yield onself to the authority or will of another, b: to permit oneself to be subjected to something, 2: to defer to or consent to abide by the opinion or authority of another.

I think you're using the second version, 1b and 2. However, the whole gist of the word's meaning is that once you submit, you are no longer in authority. You are following someone else. Does that make sense? I really want to be clear on this so this post may be long.

I think you're right when you say the husband should consult with his wife first. Jacob consulted his wives when he wanted to leave Laban and move back to the land he'd come from. See where I get confused is when you talk about how both must submit to the other. What do you mean by the word "submission"? Because the way you've described your meaning says "Whenever we disagree & our spouse's desire is not evil, even though we think our thinking may be better or wiser, we should give them what they want." If that's what you mean by submission then I can see where a lot of the confusion is coming from.

I'll give a non-spiritual example.

Person A wants a sandwich and asks Person B to make one. Person B is exhausted from work (and I'm using the term broadly here to include all kinds) and would rather go to bed early. However, for the sake of the discussion, let's say Person A can't make his/her own sandwich. Broken arms. So, not only will Person B have to make the sandwich, s/he'll have to help feed Person A.

If Person A submits to the other, then Person B is not submitting, because Person A's need (hunger) is not fulfilled. If Person B submits and makes the sandwich, then Person A is not submitting because Person B's need (sleep) is not fulfilled.

Even if Person B goes ahead and makes the sandwich, helps Person A eat, then goes to sleep, that's still time lost resting. Both cannot submit to the other without sacrificing something.

I see what you're saying when it comes to things where a compromise can be found. I want to paint the walls blue. My husband wants to paint them pink. We paint the walls in pink and blue stripes. LOL.

However, there are times when one person must lead or nothing happens. The question in those moments is who? Which one gets their way? If I'm busy with the children during a crisis, am I going to take time to stand by my husband while he makes vital decisions or expect him to come to me and consult with me when time is an issue? No. I would rather he make decisions as the head of the household and trust that he's making wise ones while I take care of the kids.

I was going to say more about checks and balances within the family, but instead I'll talk a little about what Heavenly Father has taught me, both through the written words of scriptures and prophets and through divine revelation about my husband's role as a presiding figure in the home.

I rarely receive revelation anymore unless it is for the sisters I VT (I don't have any other calling at the moment), myself on a personal level, or my children. The vast majority of revelation for our family comes through my husband. It confused me because I once thought both received the right equally. The only reason would be through unrighteousness on the part of one. Through prayer on the subject I learned that both do, but that the husband presides. The only times I have received revelation for my husband are when he's been refusing to listen to the Spirit (for whatever reason... not necessarily rebellion) or when something he needs to do must be made especially clear. Because he respects me, he has a tendency to listen to me.

These moments are very, very, very rare. Even most of the revelation we've received regarding our children comes through my husband. It is his right as the father of our home. It is part of his job as the presiding figure. As such, when a decision is to be made, and it involves prayer, we both pray, he receives the revelation and I receive confirmation from the Spirit. If I don't receive confirmation, I continue to pray until I do or until I get a clear signal that he is wrong. At which point, we pray again for more guidance. I will say that so far I've never gotten a confirmation he's wrong during those times when we've prayed.

There have also been times when I've wanted to tell my husband he's wrong in something and the Spirit has constrained me. Why? Because my husband doesn't answer to me. He answers to God and God is the one who will chastise him as he sees fit. There are times I think he's going to do something that isn't a sin but is stupid and I'll warn him, but that's about it. He answers to God, not me. It's the curse of presiding. Doesn't mean I have to follow him, either. Only as he follows the Lord.

This doesn't mean I can slack off in spiritual things. I need to be able to feel that confirmation so that I know whether the Lord is speaking through my husband or not. But as I said, it is only the confirmation, not the revelation itself.

I think Amore, this is another example of what you're trying to say when you mean that both should submit to the other: that neither moves until both are sure of the path. However, even in this example, one receives the revelation first and it isn't the woman. My husband is not submitting to me when God gives him revelation regarding our family. My experience with the Spirit has been that my husband presides over our home. The Spirit is strongest when I follow him as he follows God. I have found nothing in the scriptures, temple, or in the words of the prophets to contradict my personal experience.

And yes, this arrangement does increase True Love/Charity in our home.

I think that post is long enough. I hope it made sense. If I can take a breather, I think I'll write a much shorter post on women's right to vote. I love that topic and I'm glad to see a thread devoted to it.

Proud 2B Peculiar, I think there's more contention in general through the world. The pressure is rising and everyone is creeping closer to that moment when they're held over the volcano and show who they really are (if they aren't there already). Glad to see you're surviving.

[Amore Vero]

A me,
I appreciate your responding to my post. But I'm afraid you didn't understand what I was saying.

1. Yes, it does present a problem when both spouses want to totally submit to the other & do the other's wishes, desires & choices before their own. But that is the beautiful divine dilemma that we all want to have with our spouse, for then both will be intune to receive correct revelation & inspiration from the Lord as to what the best thing to do would be & thus they would both receive the same answers & want the same things, or if it's insignificant, like painting the living room, they would just take turns giving each other what they want so both get to recieve the blessings of putting the other 1st. In other words, this is the dilemma you want to have with your spouse, that very few ever get to.

2. I just have never understood why so many women are willing to give up their divine rights & responsibility & power over their husband & children & home, just because the husband presides 'also'. To expect a husband to do all the presiding is not loving, kind or righteous. Wives need to take their half of the responsibility & not expect the man to have to do all the presiding. If you study what presiding means, you will see that in most homes, the woman actually is left, even often forced, to do most of the presiding, which is why the Church is continually reminding the men that they have a role & responsibility to preside, they just don't usually mention that the wife presides too, for that is a very sensitive thing that can cause most men to 'resist' presiding at all, if he must do it with the wife & not have all the power himself.

The Lord usually lets the Spirit teach that the wife also presides, for only strong righteous humble men can share power & authority freely & are willing to preside alongside their wife with her as an equal co-presider. And only women with high self-worth & respect are willing to do their half of the presiding along with him.

3. Both the husband & the wife should be receiving revelation & inspiration for each other & the family & usually most wives receive more revelation for him & her & the children than the husband, which he must completely submit to, before the wife is ever asked to do the same for him.

[A Me]

I'm afraid I still don't understand what you were saying.

First, to make sure definitions are clear, when I say "preside" I mean:

1. to exercise guidance, direction, or control, 2a. to occupy the place of authority: act as president, chairman, or moderator, b. occupy a position similar to that of a president or chairman, 3. to occupy a position of featured instrumental performer (from same dictionary mentioned in earlier post)

Now that we have the definition in place so we both know what I'm saying when I use the word "preside", I'd like to look at your reply and see if we can't figure out where I'm not understanding you. Because I really do think you're just not coming across well.

1. Yes, it does present a problem when both spouses want to totally submit to the other & do the other's wishes, desires & choices before their own. But that is the beautiful divine dilemma that we all want to have with our spouse, for then both will be intune to receive correct revelation & inspiration from the Lord as to what the best thing to do would be & thus they would both receive the same answers & want the same things, or if it's insignificant, like painting the living room, they would just take turns giving each other what they want so both get to recieve the blessings of putting the other 1st. In other words, this is the dilemma you want to have with your spouse, that very few ever get to.

How does having a dilemma lead to suddenly being in tune with the Spirit? One doesn't necessarily follow the other. And will Heavenly Father really step in and mediate every decision? Going back to my earlier example, will Heavenly Father step in and say, "You should give up some sleep" or "You should forget about the sandwich"? Or will he act like he did with the Brother of Jared and say, "What do you think you should do?" Deciding whether a person should sleep or eat is not insignificant and that's why I chose it. Deciding how to light ships that would spend a great deal of time under water wasn't an insignificant decision either. And yet, Heavenly Father allowed the Brother of Jared to make that decision. Again, in the D&C he says that it isn't good for Him to command in all things. He expects us to use our minds.

I'm afraid you still haven't answered the question of submission, either. Because, as I said, if one of you is submitting, then the other isn't. If your point, however, is that men and women take turns sacrificing for each other and for the family they have been blessed to create, then I can agree with that. It does not mean that men no longer preside in the home.

2. I just have never understood why so many women are willing to give up their divine rights & responsibility & power over their husband & children & home, just because the husband presides 'also'. To expect a husband to do all the presiding is not loving, kind or righteous. Wives need to take their half of the responsibility & not expect the man to have to do all the presiding. If you study what presiding means, you will see that in most homes, the woman actually is left, even often forced, to do most of the presiding, which is why the Church is continually reminding the men that they have a role & responsibility to preside, they just don't usually mention that the wife presides too, for that is a very sensitive thing that can cause most men to 'resist' presiding at all, if he must do it with the wife & not have all the power himself.

This contradicts itself. On the one hand, you're saying that women keep giving up their divine right to preside, and on the other you're saying that women preside too much. I think you're trying to say there's a balance between roles, and if so, then I agree. Men, for example, shouldn't be so involved in work that they forget they have a home, and women shouldn't be so involved in their home and children that they forget they have a husband. That still does not take away a man's right to preside in the home.

I really think we aren't using the word preside in the same sense. The Proclamation on the Family is an inspired decree sent out to the world regarding the structure of the family and the consequences of ignoring that structure. I've noticed God uses words very carefully when he wants to say something, especially when he wants to warn his children, and so I don't think he had some other meaning outside of the meaning everyone understands when he used the word "preside" when talking about the father's role. After all, this wasn't some esoteric message for Church members only with a meaning only they could know; the Proclamation was sent through the whole world. And I'm sure that when it was translated, the word(s) used for "preside" had a meaning similar to the definition I quoted above. I have no source for that, but we have the Book of Mormon in more than one language here at our house and I've noticed that they tend to be pretty careful about keeping the original meaning intact.

Again, when God sends a warning, he makes himself clear to the people he's addressing. Every prophecy has been clear to the people to whom it was addressed.

The definition of "preside" I used above is singular in its application. Even your statement in 1. says that a couple would take turns having their way, thus one would follow while the other led. Someone would preside while the other became a follower.

If this is what you mean, that a couple takes turns presiding, then I see what you're saying. However, if that were true, then the Proclamation would have said the man and woman preside together over the family. It would have been part of the warning to the world to help them avoid the calamities to come. Instead, it says the man presides. The woman is given the enormous responsibility of nurturing the children... but she doesn't preside over the family.

3. Both the husband & the wife should be receiving revelation & inspiration for each other & the family & usually most wives receive more revelation for him & her & the children than the husband, which he must completely submit to, before the wife is ever asked to do the same for him.

If you're saying this is true for you in your situation, then perhaps I might shrug and say it's yours. But you're generalizing something that many women I've known with truly happy marriages have found isn't true.

I have never known a woman who received more revelation for her husband than he did for himself unless he wasn't living the gospel or honoring his priesthood as he should. Men who honor their priesthood receive revelation for their families. They definitely receive revelation over themselves just as I receive revelation for myself when I'm in tune and doing what I should.

Personally, I think it shows a lack of faith in God to force a husband to "completely" submit to a wife's revelation before a wife even listens to revelation God gives her husband. If you are both listening to the Spirit why does it matter if the man submits first? And which prophet, scripture, etc. says that?

Perhaps my example confused you. When I say "revelation" I mean the details of the plan of action we need to take. I usually just receive the witness from the Spirit that what my husband is telling me is true. There have been a few instances where we both received something at the same time, but those times are rare and usually have to do with doctrinal issues or a deeper understanding of current events. And when we act, it's together with the same goal in mind, though we act in different spheres.

I think most of the problems in this discussion come from either a confusion regarding the truths you've learned, or a lack of ability to communicate effectively.

If it's the first, perhaps you should spend some time outlining your beliefs and the sources you've used to come to those beliefs (see Skousen's view on the hidden truths of the atonement for an example) so that you can persuade others effectively. I know you've said it would take too long to outline years of study, but if the Savior can distill the law and prophets into two commandments (and we are to be like Him) then I'm sure that, given some time, you'll be able to do the same. To refuse to do so makes it sound like you have no sources... only your own opinion. Opinion is fine, but it should never be stated as doctrinal fact unless you have a specific source to which you can refer.

If it's the second, I think you should take some time to study more effective ways of communicating, with a focus on logic and definitions. This will help you state your opinions/beliefs more clearly and avoid problems like you've encountered on this thread.

And the reason I'm taking so much time in trying to understand is because what you've written reminds me of some of the things I've heard Maxine Hanks talk about. I'd hate to think that what you've been saying has been influenced by her writings.

[Amore Vero]

A Me,

I am sorry, but I don't think I can be of further help for you to understand differently at this time. It is most difficult even face to face to help enlighten someones thinking, let alone over the internet. I just don't have the time it would take. It would be different if we could talk in person. But I have talked to many women who believe as you. And I have found that only the Spirit has the power to truely enlighten their minds or your mind & give you the courage to embrace & understand greater responsibility in your marriage. I have no power to do that.

But most women I know & associate with (all strong good LDS women with humble righteous husbands who feel the same as I do) do understand & appreciate their true equality & responsibility in marriage as I have described to you in my above posts. I hope one day you can come to understand the joy of presiding with your husband beside him, not under him, as "co-Presiders & co-Presidents" (as Elder Perry said in Gen. Conf.) over your family as Heavenly Father meant it to be & as it will be throughout eternity.

I know responsibility can be a scary & heavy thing, especially if your husband doesn't understand or accept your equal position with him, but it also is the only thing that brings us real happiness & joy & the greatest blessings of eternity.

And no, I have never heard of Maxine Hanks. I am an active LDS wife & mother & I only rely on Prophets of God for what I believe, which is where I base all my beliefs. I have found that only when we are ready to accept something, only then the Spirit shows us where the Prophets have taught it, but if we don't believe something, we will probably never see how Prophets have taught it. Heavenly Father does not force anything upon us, he gives us only the inspiration, knowledge, gifts & power that what we ask for & are ready to handle.

[Hyrcanus]

I am an active LDS wife & mother & I only rely on Prophets of God for what I believe, which is where I base all my beliefs. I have found that only when we are ready to accept something, only then the Spirit shows us where the Prophets have taught it, but if we don't believe something, we will probably never see how Prophets have taught it. Heavenly Father does not force anything upon us, he gives us only the inspiration, knowledge, gifts & power that what we ask for & are ready to handle.

So could you point to the words of the Prophets that instruct us to ignore the order taught in the temple and have husbands submit to wives, before wives submit to their husbands?

Since you root everything you believe in the Prophets, I'm confident you'll produce the quote. Once you show us that quote, that will allow each of us to reflect on its meaning and determine the truth of what you are saying.

[Amore Vero]

The Prophets don't put all the truth about something in just one statement. Wouldn't that be great. They do it line upon line, precept upon precept like the Spirit does. We have to search & study out many puzzle pieces & put them all together to begin to understand what it all means. Than we have to have the Spirit to even understand correctly what is written or said by Prophets or we will still be lead astray.

So if my statements don't ring true to you, showing you a sign, a quote, won't convince you either. But if you are really sincere in wanting to know, the Spirit can easily & quickly show you the words of the Prophets that I was shown.

And I did learn alot of this in the temple. But Heavenly Father usually only causes us to hear what we are ready to accept. If these things sound offensive to you, Heavenly Father is not going to push them on you or anyone who doesn't want to live it. Else it would be to your condemnation. Not everyone hears the words of the Prophets or the words spoken in the temple with the same meaning.

[Rob]

So if my statements don't ring true to you, showing you a sign, a quote, won't convince you either..

Try me.

[Rensai]

So if my statements don't ring true to you, showing you a sign, a quote, won't convince you either..

Try me.

I've asked for quotes before. Amore has never produced a quote not once, ever. If you read her history you'll find all her posts are basically the same sexist drivel, regardless of the original topic.

[Rob]

So if my statements don't ring true to you, showing you a sign, a quote, won't convince you either..

Try me.

I've asked for quotes before. Amore has never produced a quote not once, ever. If you read her history you'll find all her posts are basically the same sexist drivel, regardless of the original topic.

Yeah, thanks for the tip. I see that now. Talk about a litany of misandrous tripe. I'm a little embarrassed I didn't do a little background check before responding. That'll teach me. OTOH, it got me to read the Proclamation on the Family again. (Thanks, A Me!) It had been a while. And it is spelled out clearly in there that the man presides in the home. Simple. End of. You gotta love modern-day revelation. Moving on...

[Mahonri]

OTOH, it got me to read the Proclamation on the Family again. (Thanks, A Me!) It had been a while. And it is spelled out clearly in there that the man presides in the home. Simple. End of. You gotta love modern-day revelation. Moving on...

Now, I am not disparaging the Proclamation, but the doctrine it spelled out in regards to Priesthood holders presiding in the home is not a "new" revelation. It is an ETERNAL principle known since the foundation of time and before. God does not change, and only a subversive would want Him or His Church to do so. I wonder how many "new order" mormons we have here?

[Hyrcanus]

The Prophets don't put all the truth about something in just one statement. Wouldn't that be great. They do it line upon line, precept upon precept like the Spirit does. We have to search & study out many puzzle pieces & put them all together to begin to understand what it all means. Than we have to have the Spirit to even understand correctly what is written or said by Prophets or we will still be lead astray.

So if my statements don't ring true to you, showing you a sign, a quote, won't convince you either. But if you are really sincere in wanting to know, the Spirit can easily & quickly show you the words of the Prophets that I was shown.

And I did learn alot of this in the temple. But Heavenly Father usually only causes us to hear what we are ready to accept. If these things sound offensive to you, Heavenly Father is not going to push them on you or anyone who doesn't want to live it. Else it would be to your condemnation. Not everyone hears the words of the Prophets or the words spoken in the temple with the same meaning.

Asking you to back up your claims is not the same thing as sign seeking, despite your attempt to suggest otherwise. As for your suggestion that not everyone hears the words with the same understanding, that is reasonable where the words are unclear or somewhat nebulous. The opposite is the case here. We have a several scriptures, direct instruction in the temple, and dozens of quotes from Prophets and Apostles explaining the doctrine.

This has gone far past the point of being productive, until you can ground your claim in scripture and prophetic teaching, nothing you are saying can be given even a scrap of credibility.

[Amore Vero]

I am not out to convince anyone of my beliefs. That is not my responsibility or even my ability. For, as Ezra T. Benson taught, it takes revelation to understand revelation, (whether it's the words used in the temple or something we hear directly from the Prophet). Many people will hear different things said from the same exact words, even seemingly clear & precise words, unless they all possess the Spirit to hear the exact same thing.

I only desired to share my testimony of what I have found to be true from many years of study & practice on the subject & there is no way I could find a few quotes which would convince you, when it takes either the Spirit of revelation &/or lots of study & practice on our own to come to understand these things.

[randont]

Rose
Unfortunately Amore is of the opinion that there is a greater sex, women. She believes that women should rule the world and save us poor men from our caveman condition. It appears she has been abused by some man in her life and now spends a lot of time trying to convince us that every man is evil and women are good.

If you will review her writings on this forum you will see this is the common theme. I wonder how her Heavenly Father (a male) feels about her degradation of his sons?

"I am sorry if the Prophet's teachings offend you. Everything I write I learned from Prophets. Just because you haven't read what the Prophets have said about these topics doesn't make it untrue."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=yo ... DAc88ccm0g

She does a great job of describing part of the problem without having the Gospel to teach her.
I haven't seen you quote a single prophet. Not that hard especially with everything on the internet.

Satan's MAIN two pronged attack from what I've seen through news, family, friends etc is this, obviously he uses more angles for attack. For men he teaches to lust and value a woman for her body. Women he gets by convincing her that men are unnecessary sexist pigs. If he can get us to no longer see the true value in each other he's succeeded.
I