Women's Right to Vote

[Rensai]

I'm new around here, take it easy on me

My wife and I have talked about this topic quite a bit. I think the problem can be divided into two parts.

The first and biggest problem is that people are looking for a fight in this issue. Either men are wicked and the problem or women are wicked and the problem. I don't think it's that easy and most of the attempts to say that one side bears the majority of the burden are using selective reasoning to reach their conclusion. Both men and women have specific roles they've been set apart to do. Mothers and Fathers can rule a family equally even if they don't have identical responsibilities. Because of these uniquely suited roles each of them have, they'll also occasionally stray off the path and attack the other gender in different ways. We can't be myopic in our assessment of the other gender's problems, or we're just contributing to the problem. I think the proper structure has been laid out clearly by the Lord and his appointed leaders. In the church men and women work side by side with different roles, but equal authority over their appointed areas (not to say that every member is perfect, the idea itself is perfect). That should be the goal each of us duplicate in our family structures.

I'm with you right up until you say "In the church men and women work side by side with different roles, but equal authority over their appointed areas." I would say rather, that in the church men and women work side by side with different roles, and different levels of authority, rather than equal, in their appointed areas. I am not saying men and women are not equal overall. I am just saying they are equal but different, with different responsibilities. The responsibilities part is key to me. In The Family: A Proclamation to the World, it says, "By divine design, fathers are to preside over their families in love and righteousness and are responsible to provide the necessities of life and protection for their families. Mothers are primarily responsible for the nurture of their children. In these sacred responsibilities, fathers and mothers are obligated to help one another as equal partners."

Father's primary responsibilities: "are to preside over their families in love and righteousness and are responsible to provide the necessities of life and protection for their families."

Mother's primary responsibilities: "are primarily responsible for the nurture of their children."

It is clear, father's and mother's have different things they are to be responsible for. They are very closely related, but different. Then the proclamation says "In these sacred responsibilities, fathers and mothers are obligated to help one another as equal partners."

I'm open to other explanations, but right now I read all that to mean, overall, men and women are equal, but with different responsibilities. I do not believe they have equal authority in those areas. For example, how could the Lord hold the husband responsible for presiding over the family, if he really intended the wife to lead as some people think today? That makes no sense at all. In my mind, the only thing that makes sense is that so long as the decisions are righteous, mother's should yield to father's when it touches his area of responsibility, and father's should yield to mother's in hers. Ideally, all decisions are mutually made, but when agreement can't be reached, ultimately, the decision has got to rest with the person who will be held responsible. Otherwise, I would have to believe that God is exercising unrighteous dominion for holding someone responsible for a decision that is not theirs to make. It is that simple. Either I am responsible or I am not. If I am responsible to preside over the family and my wife is not, then I must have the final say, within the confines God has placed upon me. Likewise, for my wife. If she is responsible for the nurturing of the children, I cannot be the final authority there. I have to yield to her decision or that is unrighteous dominion, as long as she is leading righteously. That is an important exception, but I think everyone here understands that. As soon as a person is leading unrighteously, they have no legitimate authority.

Happily, this is something that should hardly ever come up in practice. In my own marriage, I'll bet 99% of all decisions are made jointly. That is because we both want the same things. There have been a few times though, that my wife has stepped in and told me I need to back down and apologize because I am being too critical and hurting a child's self esteem, or I am being too soft and need to step up and discipline a child for her. I can't quite seem to ever get it right.

It's been hard to listen sometimes, but I am proud to say I have always abided by her decisions in such times so far. Similarly, there have been a few times that my wife has ceded the decision over to me when we couldn't reach agreement. Neither of us like that, but we know that we are not perfect and cannot reach agreement on everything so we do the best we can and yield the decision when it is the other person's responsibility primarily. This has worked out well for us so far.

One last thing to ponder. President Spencer W. Kimball, the 12th President of the Church, taught that fathers “must preside as Jesus Christ presides over his Church—in love, in service, in tenderness, and in example” (in Conference Report, Apr. 1976, 68; or Ensign, May 1976, 45).

[Hyrcanus]

I'm open to other explanations, but right now I read all that to mean, overall, men and women are equal, but with different responsibilities. I do not believe they have equal authority in those areas.

Just for clarity, I mean they have equal authority from the Lord in the areas he has assigned them individually as stewards. So the Relief Society President has the authority to run the Relief Society in the appointed way, just as the EQP has the authority to run the EQ in the appointed way.

I think we're both saying the same thing, my initial way of wording it may just have been awkward.

[ndjili]

That's definitely part of the equation... but around me I see just as many women who are disrespectful to their men.

Today a woman is NOT completely dependent upon a man for a living as she once was. If she isn't a good woman, she holds some very powerful cards. She can marry a man, treat him poorly, take the house, take the kids, and get a fair amount of alimony if she's smart about her deception.

There will always be men who abuse their strength and overpower and manipulate women. Now that we have our rights, there are just as many women who abuse their strength to manipulate and mistreat men.

Amen amen amen. I have seem far more women mistreat and abuse their husbands than husbands mistreating their wives. It happens on both sides of the fence. Called life.

I always looked at the vote as men were the head of the family and therefore the speaker. Doesnt mean his wife did not get a choice. I tend to believe that most marriages were good and fair with people as loving partners. Not equal as equal mean the same, but partners, 2 halves of a whole. Each with something different to bring to the table. I think people forget what kind of influence a righteous kind wife has over her family. I believe this lie that all men are evil abusers was propegated by the same people who are telling lies today. They are changing and rewriting history to one that suits their agenda to tear apart the family first..by tearing apart the relationship between men and women.

[Rose Garden]

Wow! Thanks for the great insights guys. And welcome to the forum, Hyrcanus.

[Amore Vero]

So the problem isn't women voting or not voting. If we ran the country the way I believe the Lord originally intended it. Each household would have a vote; families would discuss the elections and come of a conclusion through careful thought and prayer of who to cast their vote for. Sadly, this isn't the way it works today, but I don't think we should allow lazy thinking to lead us to the conclusion that one gender or the other is to blame for the problems.

Having one vote per household would only work in Zion, where both spouses were righteous & wanted the same things or where the man would always go with what his wife wanted as he is commanded to do.

In a Telestial world you have many, if not most, marriages where the husband & wife feel differently about political matters, & most husbands will use unrighteous dominion & think he has the last say & make the decision himself usually according to what he wants to do.

To base voting upon an abusive system of marriage where only men own the family property & thus have a say in public affairs, only makes things worse in society. One of the problems in our world has been that men have not honored women's equal rights, such as owning property. God wants woman to equally own all property in marriage. Both should be considered land owners. But men have abusively controlled women throughout most of history & not honored her equal rights to property as God intended her to have.

Had women been allowed to vote before now, they would have changed that property rights thing quick, & rightfully so. God never intended for men to own the family property by himself & make any decisions by himself or have the last say.

Amazingly enough even in 2010, a few men still choose to believe they have the last say in decision making. But as the Lord warns us, when a couple can't agree on something, it is the inclination of almost all men to want to just make the decision himself & do what he thinks is best. But that is spouse abuse & control. The same as if a woman tried it.

The Prophets have said that a man who thinks he has the last say or makes decisions against the consent or agreement of his wife, should be tried for his membership. Pres. Hinckley said excommunication is usually the penalty for such, for it is unrighteous dominion & severe abuse. A man will always lose the Spirit & his Priesthood if he does such.

It is also a sin for a wife to allow her husband to think he has the last say or make decisions against her will & consent. Heavenly Father expects wives to call for respect from their husbands & not allow him to abuse & control her & disrespect her equal say & veto power in all decisions. If he still forces his will upon her even after she tries to teach him what is right, then she is not accountable for his abusive decision making.

Like the House & the Senate, Husbands & wives are completely equal in the governing & presiding & decision making of the marriage & family. No decision can be put in force righteously unless both agree. And no woman is obligated to go along with her husband's if she does not believe his opinion or desire to be good or right or something she agrees with or wants to do.

In an impasse, where they cannot agree on something, the Prophets teach that a righteous husband would always go with whatever the wife wanted or desired & not with what he wanted to do, unless what she wanted was down right evil of course.

The Proclamation of course does not list all of the woman's roles, it only lists her most vital one. This was a Proclamation going out to the world, where the Prophet knew that many men throughout the world are still not willing to honor their wife's equal position in leadership yet. But Prophets have taught the members of the Church over & over that she also presides equally with the man over the family as a 'co-presider & co-president', as Elder Perry said.

Though most men reading this are probably righteous & would never think they have the last say or be abusive to their wife, there are still some men today who believe such is ok. The Church says that righteous men have a duty to protect all women from abuse, so if they know of other men with such errant thinking & behavior, they must speak up & help stop his abuse & protect the wife, even if she doesn't realize she is being abused & is ok with it, as some wives sadly are.

[Hyrcanus]

So the problem isn't women voting or not voting. If we ran the country the way I believe the Lord originally intended it. Each household would have a vote; families would discuss the elections and come of a conclusion through careful thought and prayer of who to cast their vote for. Sadly, this isn't the way it works today, but I don't think we should allow lazy thinking to lead us to the conclusion that one gender or the other is to blame for the problems.

Having one vote per household would only work in Zion, where both spouses were righteous & wanted the same things or where the man would always go with what his wife wanted as he is commanded to do.

In a Telestial world you have many, if not most, marriages where the husband & wife feel differently about political matters, & most husbands will use unrighteous dominion & think he has the last say & make the decision himself usually according to what he wants to do.

To base voting upon an abusive system of marriage where only men own the family property & thus have a say in public affairs, only makes things worse in society. One of the problems in our world has been that men have not honored women's equal rights, such as owning property. God wants woman to equally own all property in marriage. Both should be considered land owners. But men have abusively controlled women throughout most of history & not honored her equal rights to property as God intended her to have.

Had women been allowed to vote before now, they would have changed that property rights thing quick, & rightfully so. God never intended for men to own the family property by himself & make any decisions by himself or have the last say.

Amazingly enough in even 2010, a few men still choose to believe they have the last say in decision making. But as the Lord warns us, when a couple can't agree on something, it is the inclination of almost all men to want to just make the decision himself & do what he thinks is best. But that is spouse abuse & control. The same as if a woman tried it.

The Prophets have said that a man who thinks he has the last say or makes decisions against the consent or agreement of his wife, should be tried for his membership. Pres. Hinckley said excommunication is usually the penalty for such, for it is unrighteous dominion & severe abuse.

It is also a sin for a wife to allow her husband to think he has the last say or make decisions against her will & consent. Heavenly Father expects wives to call for respect from their husbands & not allow him to abuse & control her & disrespect her equal say & veto power in all decisions. If he still forces his will upon her even after she tries to teach him what is right, then she is not accountable for his abusive decision making.

Like the House & the Senate, Husbands & wives are completely equal in the governing & presiding & decision making of the marriage & family. No decision can be put in force righteously unless both agree. And no woman is obligated to go along with her husband's if she does not believe his opinion or desire to be good or right or something she agrees with or wants to do.

In an impasse, where they cannot agree on something, the Prophets teach that a righteous husband would always go with whatever the wife wanted or desired & not with what he wanted to do, unless what she wanted was down right evil of course.

The Proclamation of course does not list all of the woman's roles, it only lists her most vital one. This was a Proclamation going out to the world, where the Prophet knew that many men throughout the world are still not willing to honor their wife's equal position in leadership yet. But Prophets have taught the members of the Church over & over that she also presides equally with the man over the family as a 'co-presider & president', as Elder Perry said.

Though most men reading this are probably righteous & would never think they have the last say or be abusive to their wife, there are still some men today who believe such is ok. The Church says that righteous men have a duty to protect all women from abuse, so if they know of other men with such errant thinking & behavior, they must speak up & help stop his abuse & protect the wife, even if she doesn't realize she is being abused & is ok with it, as some wives sadly are.

This cuts both ways. A strong "anti-man" rhetoric is no better then a strong "anti-woman" rhetoric. You're suggesting that a one vote per household system wouldn't work in today's world, but look at where we've gotten by handing out votes to everyone that can fog a mirror. Both systems have problems when abused, why not move to a constitutional system and work on solving the problems?

Families should already be striving for unity in their homes. I'm not sure the Lord considers it any less of a problem if husbands and wives vote in different directions today, instead of butting heads about it under a one vote per home system.

As far as the roles of husbands and wives, I'll leave it to the Prophet to let us know if he left any roles off the Proclamation. I won't assume he has more for me as a husband, it isn't any wiser to assume he has additional for my wife. We have to base our behavior on what the prophets have told us to do, not what we think they may tell us to do at some future date.

[Rensai]

So the problem isn't women voting or not voting. If we ran the country the way I believe the Lord originally intended it. Each household would have a vote; families would discuss the elections and come of a conclusion through careful thought and prayer of who to cast their vote for. Sadly, this isn't the way it works today, but I don't think we should allow lazy thinking to lead us to the conclusion that one gender or the other is to blame for the problems.

Having one vote per household would only work in Zion, where both spouses were righteous & wanted the same things or where the man would always go with what his wife wanted as he is commanded to do.

In a Telestial world you have many, if not most, marriages where the husband & wife feel differently about political matters, & most husbands will use unrighteous dominion & think he has the last say & make the decision himself usually according to what he wants to do.

To base voting upon an abusive system of marriage where only men own the family property & thus have a say in public affairs, only makes things worse in society. One of the problems in our world has been that men have not honored women's equal rights, such as owning property. God wants woman to equally own all property in marriage. Both should be considered land owners. But men have abusively controlled women throughout most of history & not honored her equal rights to property as God intended her to have.

Had women been allowed to vote before now, they would have changed that property rights thing quick, & rightfully so. God never intended for men to own the family property by himself & make any decisions by himself or have the last say.

Amazingly enough even in 2010, a few men still choose to believe they have the last say in decision making. But as the Lord warns us, when a couple can't agree on something, it is the inclination of almost all men to want to just make the decision himself & do what he thinks is best. But that is spouse abuse & control. The same as if a woman tried it.

The Prophets have said that a man who thinks he has the last say or makes decisions against the consent or agreement of his wife, should be tried for his membership. Pres. Hinckley said excommunication is usually the penalty for such, for it is unrighteous dominion & severe abuse. A man will always lose the Spirit & his Priesthood if he does such.

It is also a sin for a wife to allow her husband to think he has the last say or make decisions against her will & consent. Heavenly Father expects wives to call for respect from their husbands & not allow him to abuse & control her & disrespect her equal say & veto power in all decisions. If he still forces his will upon her even after she tries to teach him what is right, then she is not accountable for his abusive decision making.

Like the House & the Senate, Husbands & wives are completely equal in the governing & presiding & decision making of the marriage & family. No decision can be put in force righteously unless both agree. And no woman is obligated to go along with her husband's if she does not believe his opinion or desire to be good or right or something she agrees with or wants to do.

In an impasse, where they cannot agree on something, the Prophets teach that a righteous husband would always go with whatever the wife wanted or desired & not with what he wanted to do, unless what she wanted was down right evil of course.

The Proclamation of course does not list all of the woman's roles, it only lists her most vital one. This was a Proclamation going out to the world, where the Prophet knew that many men throughout the world are still not willing to honor their wife's equal position in leadership yet. But Prophets have taught the members of the Church over & over that she also presides equally with the man over the family as a 'co-presider & co-president', as Elder Perry said.

Though most men reading this are probably righteous & would never think they have the last say or be abusive to their wife, there are still some men today who believe such is ok. The Church says that righteous men have a duty to protect all women from abuse, so if they know of other men with such errant thinking & behavior, they must speak up & help stop his abuse & protect the wife, even if she doesn't realize she is being abused & is ok with it, as some wives sadly are.

Do provide some direct quotes from the prophets for these statements you ascribe to them. You are very quick to claim to know the mind of God and his prophets, even when your interpretation flies directly in the face of scripture and reason. Let's see the quotes for these teachings you are referring to.

[ChelC]

How to govern a wayward wife ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gapT5-l1D1U

That's a funny movie... and that woman deserved it!

[Proud 2b Peculiar]

Reading through this, I think that something really important is missing. There is a leader in marriage, and that is Jesus Christ.

It is Christ that is the leader, and wives are to submit to their husbands, when he is submitting to the Lord. I think this is really important.

My view on what marriage should be, is that Christ is like the bishop, and our spouse and ourselves are counselors. We don't counsel the Lord though, but we seek counsel from Him. Our children are under our stewardship, but they do not belong to us. In the Proclamation on the Family, when it talks about the roles and that they are shared as equals, what I read is that we have been given divine roles and responsibilities, but that we are both equally responsible to fulfill them. If a child needs nurturing, the father can assist. If the father is unable to preside at that moment, then a mother can assist. We have very specific roles, but have the the divine duty of fulfilling those roles as is needed in the family.

As a single mother, I definitely miss the blessings of sharing and assisting each other in our respective roles. It is not truly possible to do it all, but I do the best I can with the Lord's help.

I have not been on the forum consistently for awhile, and perhaps it is just the few topics that I have read, but there does seem to be a dividing spirit here, and I am not sure where it is coming from. I am disconnected from a lot in the media and the world, but it seems really loud in the conversations I have seen today. Sons and Daughters of God lifting their gender above another, assuming that one is more righteous. I do not know why either would tear down the other, both are needed for celestial glory. There are those of both genders that make mistakes, but we are all sinners. And if we think that we are not, then we really need to take a good look in the mirror.

While many who know my situation would say my ex is a very wicked and sinful man, and completely blame him, but the truth is, I made mistakes too, and I am not sinless. I may not have committed serious sins, but I still sinned too. I don't think that a marriage dissolves from just one persons actions. Going to the church's pilot program for healing from painful relationships, has made this very clear to me. When we focus so much on the sins of someone else, we lose sight of our own salvation, and we begin to digress, simply because we have stopped working on our relationship with God. While it is true that we cannot get to the Celestial Kingdom on some else's coat tails, it is also true that we cannot get there by trying to drag someone else, and not working on ourselves.

[Amore Vero]

It is Christ that is the leader, and wives are to submit to their husbands, when he is submitting to the Lord.

When we focus so much on the sins of someone else, we lose sight of our own salvation, and we begin to digress, simply because we have stopped working on our relationship with God. While it is true that we cannot get to the Celestial Kingdom on some else's coat tails, it is also true that we cannot get there by trying to drag someone else, and not working on ourselves.

I agree that women should submit to their husbands IF the husband has followed the Lord to submit to her 1st. I believe that the Lord requires husbands to completely submit to the wife in all matters in the marriage 1st, before women are ever asked to submit to the man. Only then can the woman know it is safe & can trust her man with her submission in turn. Any righteous woman would of course desire to submit to & fulfill all the wishes of her righteous submissive husband who listens to her & fulfills all of her wishes. That would of course be the 'ideal marriage'.

Only when husbands & wives are so submissive to each other can they hear the voice of the Lord & be able to follow the Lord's counsel in everything. I believe that if a husband can't submit to his wife he will never be able to submit to the Lord. That is the true test of men in this life, to see if they will submit to their wife. And then if he does, the woman is tested to see if she will do the same in return.

I also believe that only by loving & helping our spouse to overcome their sins & weaknesses, even if it takes a lifetime, 1st before worrying about our own selves, is the only way to work on ourselves & make it back to the Celestial Kingdom.

Loving & serving our enemies is what perfects us the fastest, especially if the enemy is our spouse.

[ChelC]

I agree that women should submit to their husbands IF the husband has followed the Lord to submit to her 1st. I believe that the Lord requires husbands to completely submit to the wife in all matters in the marriage 1st, before women are ever asked to submit to the man. Only then can the woman know it is safe & can trust her man with her submission in turn. Any righteous woman would of course desire to submit to & fulfill all the wishes of her righteous submissive husband who listens to her & fulfills all of her wishes. That would be the 'ideal marriage'.

I also believe that only by loving & helping our spouse to overcome their sins & weaknesses, even if it takes a lifetime, 1st before worrying about our own selves, is the only way to work on ourselves & make it back to the Celestial Kingdom.

Loving & serving our enemies is what perfects us the fastest, especially if the enemy is our spouse.

This is so false I don't know where to start. Do women really want spineless men who cower to their every whim? I know I don't. Likewise, my husband doesn't want that in me. I hope and pray my sons don't marry a woman who treats them as subjects.

[Hyrcanus]

I agree that women should submit to their husbands IF the husband has followed the Lord to submit to her 1st. I believe that the Lord requires husbands to completely submit to the wife in all matters in the marriage 1st, before women are ever asked to submit to the man.

I must have missed that "IF" when my wife and I were sealed. Not to mention in the rest of the body of Prophetic counsel and scripture.

I'm not sure why we can't just acknowledge the Lord's plan as he laid it out for the equality of spouses. Do we really think there is a flaw in his plan that we need to modify his words to improve appropriately. Personally I'd rather just heed their words exactly as spoken instead of trying to "improve" on his plan because I think I've found some key item he forgot.

Besides, if I told my wife I was going to submit to everything she ever said before she submitted to me (sounds ridiculous to even type it), she'd slap me and tell me to be a man and take the initiative

[Amore Vero]

This is so false I don't know where to start. Do women really want spineless men who cower to their every whim? I know I don't. Likewise, my husband doesn't want that in me. I hope and pray my sons don't marry a woman who treats them as subjects.

There is nothing spineless about a man who submits to his wife. In fact it takes the most righteous & honorable of men to have the humility to do so. Thus it is very rare & today a righteous man is considered a miracle.

It also takes a woman of high self-worth & self respect to expect & inspire such respect & righteousness from her man. Sadly today many women do not believe in True Love & respect from a man.

But a nobel man lives to love & serve the every wish of his lady.

I am sorry for all those who have never known a truely righteous man who understands & lives this. Though they are rare, they are out there.

[ChelC]

I agree that women should submit to their husbands IF the husband has followed the Lord to submit to her 1st. I believe that the Lord requires husbands to completely submit to the wife in all matters in the marriage 1st, before women are ever asked to submit to the man.

I must have missed that "IF" when my wife and I were sealed. Not to mention in the rest of the body of Prophetic counsel and scripture.

I'm not sure why we can't just acknowledge the Lord's plan as he laid it out for the equality of spouses. Do we really think there is a flaw in his plan that we need to modify his words to improve appropriately. Personally I'd rather just heed their words exactly as spoken instead of trying to "improve" on his plan because I think I've found some key item he forgot.

Besides, if I told my wife I was going to submit to everything she ever said before she submitted to me (sounds ridiculous to even type it), she'd slap me and tell me to be a man and take the initiative

Agreed. I remember an "as" in the endowment... but it aint followed up with hearkening to the wife, lol!

Your wife sounds like a good woman!

[Hyrcanus]

This is so false I don't know where to start. Do women really want spineless men who cower to their every whim? I know I don't. Likewise, my husband doesn't want that in me. I hope and pray my sons don't marry a woman who treats them as subjects.

There is nothing spineless about a man who submits to his wife. In fact it takes the most righteous & honorable of men to have the humility to do so. Thus it is very rare & today a righteous man is considered a miracle.

It also takes a woman of high self-worth & self respect to expect & inspire such respect & righteousness from her man. Sadly today many women do not believe in True Love & respect from a man.

But a nobel man lives to love & serve the every wish of his lady.

I know you've been asked this at least 5 times that I've read in the past, but could you please provide a reference that backs up your claim that the Lord has commanded a husband to submit to his wife before she'll submit to him and the Lord? I've never heard or read this anywhere.

I have no argument that husbands and wives should strive to serve each other in every way. My wife and I work towards that goal every day. I don't think anyone would argue with that, but you're getting push back because every single post you make sounds ridiculously lopsided, men are always the evil degenerates. That isn't any better a mindset then a misogynist that has the same attitude towards women.

Edit: My wife is a good woman, she has kept me in line for 7 years now

[Amore Vero]

I know you've been asked this at least 5 times that I've read in the past, but could you please provide a reference that backs up your claim that the Lord has commanded a husband to submit to his wife before she'll submit to him and the Lord? I've never heard or read this anywhere.

There is no 1 or 2 or even 10 quotes to show this clearly, it takes the study of many scriptures & quotes & talks along with the Spirit to put together numerous pieces of a puzzle to finally see & undertand the grand picture. Then on top of all that you have to actually live this principle in your own marriage to know how true it is.

I do not have time to do go back & do all the researching for the basis of my testimony on these things & besides if the Spirit doesn't convey the truth of these things, nothing I post from even Prophets will convince anyone otherwise, I know that from much past experience of trying.

Only the Spirit & your living this principle can truely teach you how powerful & true it is.

To know the truth of these things & anything else we must all go down the same path & study & pray to know & find the evidence of these things & then live them.

But I do testify that these truths are the only way to true happiness & exultant ecstacy in marriage, that Pres. Hinckley said was possible in this life. I have lived these principles & have to come to know this exultant ecstacy & I know that it's the only way to make your marriage eternal.

[Hyrcanus]

I know you've been asked this at least 5 times that I've read in the past, but could you please provide a reference that backs up your claim that the Lord has commanded a husband to submit to his wife before she'll submit to him and the Lord? I've never heard or read this anywhere.

There is no 1 or 2 or even 10 quotes to show this clearly, it takes the study of many scriptures & quotes & talks along with the Spirit to put together numerous pieces of a puzzle to finally see & undertand the grand picture. Then on top of all that you have to actually live this principle in your own marriage to know how true it is.

I do not have time to do go back & do all the researching for the basis of my testimony on these things & besides if the Spirit doesn't convey the truth of these things, nothing I post from even Prophets will convince anyone otherwise, I know that from much past experience of trying.

Only the Spirit & your living this principle can truely teach you how powerful & true it is.

To know the truth of these things & anything else we must all go down the same path & study & pray to know & find the evidence of these things & then live them.

But I do testify that these truths are the only way to true happiness & exultant ecstacy in marriage, that Pres. Hinckley said was possible in this life & it's the only way to make your marriage eternal.

Or I could just stick to the counsel given directly in the scriptures, by the Prophets and at the Temple. That counsel is very clear on the order the Lord expects in his house.

For what it's worth, you would be better off encouraging people to follow the clear counsel and guidance that we've received on the order we're expected to follow, instead of advocating for some secret order that isn't immediately apparent in the Temple/Scriptures/Prophets.

[Amore Vero]

Or I could just stick to the counsel given directly in the scriptures, by the Prophets and at the Temple. That counsel is very clear on the order the Lord expects in his house.

For what it's worth, you would be better off encouraging people to follow the clear counsel and guidance that we've received on the order we're expected to follow, instead of advocating for some secret order that isn't immediately apparent in the Temple/Scriptures/Prophets.

The reason we have hundreds of different religions & Churchs from 1 Bible or even many different opinions among members on what even our Prophets say, is because one person can hear or read something & come away with something completely opposite what someone else does, depending on their other study of the Gospel & how they live & if the Spirit can get through to them or not.

Just because what you interpret from what is written in the scriptures or by Prophets or even spoken in the temple, doesn't mean that someone else can't hear something completely different & be right.

Heavenly Father doesn't make everything clear & easy to understand at just the simple words given in the temple or in one Prophet's talk, he requires us to dig & study & pray for the whole truth about something.

And most importantly, as Pres. Benson said, it takes revelation to understand revelation. Otherwise we can & often do, all hear different things from the exact temple ceremony & everyone think they are right.

Many wonderful & righteous men I have talked to are not resistant in the least to the principle of submitting to their wife too, in fact they even say things like "Of course I should, far more than her submitting to me."

[shadow]

I believe that the Lord requires husbands to completely submit to the wife in all matters in the marriage 1st, before women are ever asked to submit to the man. Only then can the woman know it is safe & can trust her man with her submission in turn. Any righteous woman would of course desire to submit to & fulfill all the wishes of her righteous submissive husband who listens to her & fulfills all of her wishes. That would of course be the 'ideal marriage'.

So just to clarify, the husband submits to the wife in all things even when she's wrong but the wife only submits to the husband when he is righteous and after he has submitted to her? Is that what you call "equality"?

[Amore Vero]

So just to clarify, the husband submits to the wife in all things even when she's wrong but the wife only submits to the husband when he is righteous and after he has submitted to her? Is that what you call "equality"?

No, if what the wife wants is evil than no of course he should not go along with evil. But the wife has the high calling of Motherhood & the husband's role on earth is to provide for her whatever she needs to make her happy & comfortable & protected in that role, especially before anything he wants or needs.

Pres. Hinckley gave a great promise when he said:

"If you will make your 1st concern the comfort, well-being & happiness of your companion, sublimating any personal concern to that loftier goal, you will be happy & your marriage will go on through eternity."

I also might add, that I am not against men at all, as it may seem to some, I actually feel to practically worship a truely righteous man for he is so rare & wonderful. And I believe women should save their husband if needed by the power of True Love & visa versa. I believe all women should love & serve the every wish of their husbands, even if he doesn't do it for her, & even if he is very wicked. For choosing to have True Love, even if our spouse doesn't deserve it & loving our enemies, even if that is our spouse, is the fastest road to perfection & true happiness & Exaltation.

[shadow]

So just to clarify, the husband submits to the wife in all things even when she's wrong but the wife only submits to the husband when he is righteous and after he has submitted to her? Is that what you call "equality"?

No, if what the wife wants is evil than no of course he should not go along with evil. But the wife has the high calling of Motherhood & the husband's role on earth is to provide for her whatever she needs to make her happy & comfortable & protected in that role, especially before anything he wants or needs.

So you're just saying that we whould put our spouses good and wholesome needs and wants above our own?? That I agree! You just have a funny way of saying it 8)

[Hyrcanus]

Or I could just stick to the counsel given directly in the scriptures, by the Prophets and at the Temple. That counsel is very clear on the order the Lord expects in his house.

For what it's worth, you would be better off encouraging people to follow the clear counsel and guidance that we've received on the order we're expected to follow, instead of advocating for some secret order that isn't immediately apparent in the Temple/Scriptures/Prophets.

The reason we have hundreds of different religions & Churchs from 1 Bible or even many different opinions among members on what even our Prophets say, is because one person can hear or read something & come away with something completely opposite what someone else does, depending on their other study of the Gospel & how they live & if the Spirit can get through to them or not.

Just because what you interpret from what is written in the scriptures or by Prophets or even spoken in the temple, doesn't mean that someone else can't hear something completely different & be right.

Heavenly Father doesn't make everything clear & easy to understand at just the simple words given in the temple or in one Prophet's talk, he requires us to dig & study & pray for the whole truth about something.

And most importantly, as Pres. Benson said, it takes revelation to understand revelation. Otherwise we can & often do, all hear different things from the exact temple ceremony & everyone think they are right.

Many wonderful & righteous men I have talked to are not resistant in the least to the principle of submitting to their wife too, in fact they even say things like "Of course I should, far more than her submitting to me."

I understand a difference of opinion when the Prophets have been unclear or appeared to contradict themselves. What I'm asking you to provide is some of those quotes/references that would show a basis for our misunderstanding. So far you've declined to do that, which leaves you with no evidence, and the rest of us with the precise instructions given in the Temple, scriptures and by the Prophets.

[Amore Vero]

So you're just saying that we whould put our spouses good and wholesome needs and wants above our own?? That I agree! You just have a funny way of saying it 8)

Yes, well, the problem comes when one spouse wants something that the other doesn't think is best or good, but it doesn't quite fall in the catagory of an 'evil' desire. One spouse tends to judge the other's requests & justify not going along because it may not be best, though not really evil.

Like if one spouse wants to move to a different city or house, or one wants to go on a certain vacation, or one spouse would like the other to take up some sport they could do together or buy something the other doesn't want to (assuming you can afford it), or even little things like which resturant to go to, or what to have for dinner or what color to paint the living room. Our spouse has little requests all day long we can learn to fulfill.

Whenever we disagree & our spouse's desire is not evil, even though we think our thinking may be better or wiser, we should give them what they want. How can arguments ever come up when we are like Ammon was to (even the very wicked & undeserving) King Lamoni when he said (as we should daily to our spouse) "What wilt thou have me do, oh King/Queen?"

Serving your spouse's every wish all day long will cause you to fall madly in love with them, whether they ever catch on & do the same for you. You will thus be able to enjoy the exaltant ecstacy & feelings of True Love (which is what everyone craves) even if your spouse doesn't yet. Which feelings are what Heavenly Father wants us to have & enjoy, so to help get us through the trials of marriage & life.

Watch the movie "Fireproof" for somewhat of an example of how this works. Yet, we can take it even farther than they did in the movie.

[ChelC]

I'm curious to know why you capitalize True Love?

[Amore Vero]

I'm curious to know why you capitalize True Love?

For emphasis, & for respect, for I believe 'True Love' is 'the' gospel of Jesus Christ, the primary principle he came to teach the world, which every other doctrine or principle in the universe hinges on.

Without True Love (Charity) we are nothing & our marriage will not last.