LDS Freedom Forum

Did anybody hear or have anything to say in your 4 July testimony meeting about the Declaration of Independence, or about the signers and others who played significant roles in the establishing of the United States of America? It was a great opportunity to awaken some people a bit more to the greatness of the Declaration of Independence and the men who signed it and the others who played significant roles in establishing the United States, and our duty to honour and befriend the US Constitution. I was able to do just that as a visitor in Heber, AZ, and included the April 1898 General Conference testimony of President Wilford Woodruff about the Founders appearing to him in the St. Geoprge Temple and demanding that their tempel ordinance work be done for them. As I finished, the bishop thanked me.

The following poem was written by a member of our stake and read at the annual 3-ward 4 July celebration on Monday morning.


Dear Father, bless our nation
In this most periled time.
Protect us from the dangers
Of corruption, greed and crime.

Bless our leaders who hearken not to Thee
That their days in office be short lived,
And be replaced by men of God
Who’ll return our freedoms, once perceived.

May the Senate and the House
Both be purged of evil men.
May the Lobbyists be tempered
And our hope restored again.

May the Patriots of our nation
Be brave and take a stand,
And stamp out this wicked onslaught
And vote out each “purchased” man.

May we return to basic values
And put God above us all,
And pray to Thee for guidance
To redeem us from this fall.


Marilyn Vanderwall

Please provide the author's name.

I put her name in below the poem. Like very few others in our stake, she is awake, and calls 'em as she sees 'em with no apoligies.

Ours was amazing. We actually had a program instead of a testimony meeting. There was a reenactment of the "mysterious" person that encouraged the signers to step up, and then talks on what the founders sacrificed and the secret combinations that threaten us today.

Thanks for relating that, Bryan. I wasn't aware of a "mysterious" person that encouraged the signers to step up", and would like to learn about it, if you can provide details.

I think it is from the Journal of Discourses, but I will see if I can get the source for you.

I had to restrain myself in testimony meeting. An old WWII vet got up and said something along the lines of "Don't love your children so much that you don't let them serve their country." I strongly felt the spirit telling me tospeak against it, but I couldn;t find the words to do wo that would not have been open contention, and I couldn't bring myself to do it.

I'll raise my children to serve God, and if that service also entails serving their country, that is fine. And if it means losing their lives in RESTORING this country that is also fine. But I am NOT turning my kids over to the government meat grinder for the sake of "serving their country". Back in WW2 it may have been serving your country, now being in the service just means you are under orders of the Whore of Babylon.

Thanks, lundbaek. You're a good man. Well said, OI.

Last Sunday, I bore my testimony of the Savior and the Book of Mormon -- and quoted Benjamin Franklin ("A Republic... IF you can keep it) and from Ether 2. My emphasis was that this is a chosen land IF the inhabitants will serve the God of this land, which is Jesus Christ.

had to restrain myself in testimony meeting. An old WWII vet got up and said something along the lines of "Don't love your children so much that you don't let them serve their country." I strongly felt the spirit telling me tospeak against it, but I couldn;t find the words to do wo that would not have been open contention, and I couldn't bring myself to do it.

I'll raise my children to serve God, and if that service also entails serving their country, that is fine. And if it means losing their lives in RESTORING this country that is also fine. But I am NOT turning my kids over to the government meat grinder for the sake of "serving their country". Back in WW2 it may have been serving your country, now being in the service just means you are under orders of the Whore of Babylon.
I had to restrain myself in testimony meeting. An old WWII vet got up and said something along the lines of "Don't love your children so much that you don't let them serve their country." I strongly felt the spirit telling me tospeak against it, but I couldn;t find the words to do wo that would not have been open contention, and I couldn't bring myself to do it.

I'll raise my children to serve God, and if that service also entails serving their country, that is fine. And if it means losing their lives in RESTORING this country that is also fine. But I am NOT turning my kids over to the government meat grinder for the sake of "serving their country". Back in WW2 it may have been serving your country, now being in the service just means you are under orders of the Whore of Babylon.

O.I - you are a good man, you did the right thing.......it's hard to "correct" someone's false educational ideas without offending in church - I find myself biting my tongue all the time in church.

Ok - so here's what went down in my ward:

A high councilman got up and bore his testimony about what good guys the founders were, here's what he used as an example:

" you know James Madison, our 2nd president was actually the man who defended the redcoats that were engaged in the Boston Massacre, and he actually found out during the trial that the citizens snuck around behind the redcoats and yelled fire- and then the citizens actually fired on the mob first"

Needless to say, I had to have a little talk with my kids after church- just like last week when someone said "the constition gives us our rights"

No wonder we are doomed as a nation ..............

Another interesting response:

"I also bore my testimony again. It was the only one on the subject of patriotism. Not even the bishop would do it, as in years past my bishops haven't done so. The bishop did read a statement by our stake presidency that we should not get political in church, or contentious. But - on that special day - he didn't let the other shoe drop - that of the words of the stake presidency at our recent stake conference a few weeks ago, that "we should play the role of citizens and become involved in the political process; and that we should teach proper govt. principles and civics in our families."
"I suppose our stake presidency did this because of the alarming situations in Az. But our bishop has only addressed it with a negative "what-not-to-do" whenever he rarely mentions the subject.
"I bore testimony to that advice from stake conference, and that the Lord has provided a way thru an organization personally instigated by Pres. David O. McKay thru a righteous elder in the Church (Cleon Skousen) for us to learn those correct principles.
"As usual, no one asked me later what that organization is (www.nccs.net), and what another one is - privately recommended by another prophet (Benson), which is The John Birch Society (www.jbs.org). This last one is where we learn of the program of the modern "Insiders" (theworld-wide secret combination), and how to fight it - as Moroni suggested.
"I don't understand the seemingly complete stupor of lethargy of the average LDS in the area of citizenship. I hate to think what it portends as to personal apostasy and the parable of the wheat and tares. These people are an amazing study."

I heard a few testimonies regarding this country and it's founders, more importantly I heard testimonies of Jesus Christ and the atonement (which is what I hoped to hear!). It's sad that we judge our wards based on who said what about our country, it's founders, and the constitution. Fast and testimony meetings should be about Jesus Christ not the political state of our country or our fellow brothers and sisters in the gospel. We shouldn't use such a special meeting to lecture and preach down to others, that's what gospel doctrine class is for .

shadow wrote:I heard a few testimonies regarding this country and it's founders, more importantly I heard testimonies of Jesus Christ and the atonement (which is what I hoped to hear!). It's sad that we judge our wards based on who said what about our country, it's founders, and the constitution. Fast and testimony meetings should be about Jesus Christ not the political state of our country or our fellow brothers and sisters in the gospel. We shouldn't use such a special meeting to lecture and preach down to others, that's what gospel doctrine class is for .

Ditto

I also should note that my bishop opened testimony with a strong testimony, and his wording led me to believe that he is very awake. We ahve never talked politics before. The spirit was very strongly felt by me and it made me very grateful to have a bishop who knows what is going on.

I'd rather hear a sincere testimony about the Constitution, or the importance of liberty, etc than easily 1/3 of what I typically hear in testimony meeting. (and I think having only 1/3 of testimony meeting typically wasted with travelogs, and other non-testimony fluff is a very positive thing. I have been in wards where hearing a testimony is the rarity.

We had a tri-ward breakfast Saturday morning with flag raising and recognition of vets. I did feel honor and gratitude for those who served, even though I don't believe the wars engaged in were justified according to scriptural principles. I know these men personally, and feel that their reasons for serving are vastly different than the reasons our politicians misuse them.

Our Bishop read some quotes from the founders, among which included the one from Franklin about giving up liberty for security (and getting neither, nor deserving it). Another was "Liberty is the right to choose for oneself. Freedom is the result of right choices." I have been thinking about that last one. The distinction between liberty and freedom, if there is one, is something I would like to study more. It seems that our 19th century ancestors used 'liberty' in their vocabulary much more than we do.

Our Bishop also gave the first testimony on Sunday...about the founders, the restoration, etc. It was very good. I reflected that in all truth, the fourth is a bitter-sweet day for me. I celebrate true principles and the sacrifices that were attached to the establishment of them, but I mourn the loss of liberties we've suffered over the past many, many decades. Further, I thank Father in Heaven for bringing about the Restoration when he did. I don't know that it could have occurred any later. It was truly a small window in which to happen.

And finally, I always reflect on this poem by my great-great grandmother, a plural wife (who DID have a positive experience in this). This is a poem she wrote during the marshall raids of the polygamy persecution era:

"Freedom"

Proud America, blush with shame,
Disgrace is shadowing thy fame;
Innocent men in fettered hells are found
In Utah and the adjoining country around.
Not only men, but women too
Are imprisoned for proving true
To their sacred covenants and their God,
Who cower not 'neath the chastening rod.
Faithful husbands are torn from loving wives,
Officials laugh at children's cries
As an affectionate father is torn away,
Doomed in the pen for months to stay,
To dwell with convicts of the blackest type
Who in deeds of crime are fully ripe.
Oh, America, where is thy pride,
That liberty for which our fathers dies,
That freedom for which their blood did flow
Little more than a century ago?
They gave their lives, their blood did flow
In summer's heat, in winter's snow,
That they to us might guarantee
That precious boon, sweet liberty.
A century now has passed and gone
Since liberty was won.
The Stars and Stripes have proudly waved
Waved proudly 'neath the sun,
Have bid the refugees of earth
The exiles from all lands to come
And drink at freedom's fountain,
On freedom's soil stand,
Have promised all the sacred rights
That mortal man could ask
That we, in freedom's perfect sun,
Forever more might bask.
'Tis passed, the tyrant's hand is raised,
We feel oppression's power.
The faithful servants of our God
Are hunted every hour.
Take down the dear flag that proudly waves,
For liberty has fled,
And freedom 'neath the dreadful stroke
Seems lifeless, cold, and dead.
Or let it wave at scarce half-mast
'Till innocent men are free
And the faithful servants of Israel's God
Enjoy their liberty.

Lorena E. W. Larsen
Monroe, Utah, 1887

And here is another one I like (read by her son; not sure if she wrote or helped him):

"Little Soldier"

I am a little soldier brave,
For truth I'm going to fight.
We boys will scare bad marshals
And put them in a fright.
They're afraid we'll be like Samson
So mighty and so strong
They think they will stop our progress
But in that they are surely wrong.
If strength like that of Samson
Were given unto me,
I would push the Utah prisons down
And set the good men free.
I would scare off wicked marshals
By one glance of my eye.
Evil judges and their juries
From the Utah courts would fly.
(Written at Monroe, 1886.) (One of B. F. 's first readings in
public.)

Of course, when reading this, I often think of Elder Packer's recent gc talk about the scriptures, the constitution and the silver greys.

It's sad that we judge our wards based on who said what about our country, it's founders, and the constitution. Fast and testimony meetings should be about Jesus Christ not the political state of our country or our fellow brothers and sisters in the gospel. We shouldn't use such a special meeting to lecture and preach down to others, that's what gospel doctrine class is for .

True Shadow, we shouldn't judge "testimony" meetings on what is said about the founders, constitution- or really anything at all- because we are not in the business of judging anyones testimony.

You are correct that a testimony should be about the Savior - and the restored gospel, it's teachings and it's latter day prophets and scripture.
I don't believe it too much to ask to hear a bit about the founders and the constitution on the 4th of July, especially since were it not for them - none of us would be sitting here having this discussion.

I agree with O.I - I would rather here a "testimony" about the founders than the endless genealogies and travel logs that I routinely hear since I have moved to Utah

And who was it who inspired the establishment of the United States, the writing of the Declaration of Independence, and later the US Constitution? My closing statement was, about word for word: "If I could add anything to that testimony, it would be that the Lord inspired the writing of the Declaration of Independence, that its principles are in harmony with the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and that those principles were later encoded in the United States Constitution, which we have been told by latter-day Prophets and Apostles of the Lord to honour, uphold, sustain and "befriend". It seems to be a well kept secret in the Chruch that "...I (the Lord Jesus Christ) established the Constitution of this land, by the hands if wise men whom I (the Lord Jesus Christ) raised up unto this very purpose."

The Lord gave us his Gospel, and little known that it is, “The men who framed the Constitution were directed by the Spirit of the Lord in establishing the basic freedoms guaranteed the citizens of this country....Unless we members of the Church do all we can to preserve the freedoms we have, within the bounds of the laws of God, we will be held accountable.” “The Constitution was established through the inspiration of God to preserve the liberty of the people and to maintain his promise.” (Principles of the Gospel, Page 135-136, Page 146-147, Published by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 1991) To me, our unallienable rights and the principles of the US Constitution and Bill of Rights are every bit as much a part of the Gospel of Jesus Christ as any other of its principles. I suspect that is why President George Albert Smith stated in the April 1948 General Conference that "I am saying to you that to me the Constitution of the United States of America is just as much from my Heavenly Father as the Ten Commandments.", and why President David O. McKay stated on 2 occasions that “Next to being one in worshiping God, there is nothing in this world upon which this Church should be more united than in upholding and defending the Constitution of the United States,” (President David O. McKay, February 1956, The Instructor, 91:34)

I think the Fourth of July is an excellent occasion on which to remind LDSs of this much overlooked principle and its related commandment.

I almost walked out a couple times....nothing personal or judgmental of any particular individual....just sickened by the extreme amount of pure ignorance across the board! Gonna be a rough ride over the next year or two as people wake up to reality.

My ex-Bishop from across the street pulled out of the market after talking to me at a HT visit back at end of March/first of April....then the market (DOW measurement) went up another 200 points so he bought back in......then it fell and he hasn't wanted to make the paper loss real. Down roughly 1200 points plus now and counting.....

Its this fundamental belief that we are going through a little rough spot and things will work out and we'll be ok. I could spend hours ranting about debt saturation points and blown out fundamentals.....and it makes little difference. They don't believe because they don't want to believe. Sooner or later though the thief in the night shows up and puts a gun in your face at which point ya better crap your pants in a hurry and adjust to reality!

The worst ones are the hyperinflationista's that think they'll be bailed out of their debt so long as they use a small portion of their borrowed funds for gold.....

I gave the opening prayer in our fast and testimony meeting. Pure testimonies were given. Some added their service to God and Country. One or two used "Democracy" instead of "Constitutional Republic". We teach step by step, I guess.

Jason wrote:
The worst ones are the hyperinflationista's that think they'll be bailed out of their debt so long as they use a small portion of their borrowed funds for gold.....

Hey! I resemble that remark!

I have come around to your way of thinking regarding deflation. I do think the ultimate destiny of the dollar is to be hyperinflated out of existence, but I'd agree everything in the immediate future looks deflationary.

Original_Intent wrote:

Jason wrote:
The worst ones are the hyperinflationista's that think they'll be bailed out of their debt so long as they use a small portion of their borrowed funds for gold.....

Hey! I resemble that remark!

I have come around to your way of thinking regarding deflation. I do think the ultimate destiny of the dollar is to be hyperinflated out of existence, but I'd agree everything in the immediate future looks deflationary.

Yeah time will tell the story on that one....I obviously take the opposite stance and think they won't destroy the wonderful tool they've created for wealth transfer. Time will tell....

A few days before "the 4th" I sent the following to members of our stake presidency, our bishop, some of the other "pillars" in our ward and stake, and over 150 others. What I said in Heber, AZ this past Sunday was basically the following, since I had President Woodruff's testimony taped in my Triple Combination and just read it.

This coming Sunday, on 4 July, we will again honour an event that took place 234 years ago, namely the signing of the American Declaration of Independence. For the first 21 years of my life, "the 4th" was just a day of parades, boat races, hamburgers and hotdogs and fireworks. Actually, it was often steamed clams and lobsters back where I come from, but otherwise not even good for a day off school because school was out in July. But as I came to understand certain scriptures better, and listened more closely to the words of Prophets and Apostles, it took on much greater significance for me.

While my wife and I were on a mission at the Family History Library in Salt Lake City I took the opportunity to view photographs on rolls of microfilm of the recordings of the temple ordinances that were done for the men who wrote and signed the Declaration of Independence, the men whom we honour every 4th of July, as well as for 50 other eminent men and women, many of whom played significant rolls in the establishment of the United States of America. It was one of the most thrilling experiences I had during that mission.

Around the 4th of July I like to call attention also to a related event that occurred in 1877 in the St George Temple, about 101 years after the signing of the Declaration of Independence. But I think it is best told in the words of President Wilford Woodruff, who actually experienced it first hand while President of the St. George Temple.
　
As Prophet and President of the Church, during the April 1898 General Conference President Woodruff stated:
"I am going to bear my testimony to this assembly, if I never do it again in my life, that those men who laid the foundation of this American government and signed the Declaration of Independence were the best spirits the God of heaven could find on the face of the earth. They were choice spirits, not wicked men. General Washington and all the men that laboured for the purpose were inspired of the Lord. Another thing I am going to say here, because I have every right to say it. Every one of those men that signed the Declaration of Independence, with General Washington, called upon me, as an Apostle of the Lord Jesus Christ, in the Temple at St. George, two consecutive nights, and demanded at my hands that I should go forth and attend to the ordinances of the House of God for them. Would those spirits have called upon me, as an elder in Israel, to perform that work if they had not been noble spirits before God?"

On another occasion President Woodruff related:
"I straightway went into the baptismal font and called upon Brother McAllister to baptize me for the signers of the Declaration of Independence, and fifty other eminent men. Those spirits came there clearly with divine permission....."

If I could add anything to that testimony, it would be that it is part of our Latter-day Saint theology that the Lord inspired the writing of the Declaration of Independence, that its principles are in harmony with the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and that those principles were later encoded in the United States Constitution, which we have been told by latter-day Prophets and Apostles of the Lord to honour, uphold, sustain and "befriend".

Except for our Bishop's wife reminding us that in order to maintain our freedom we must be knowledgeable about and involved in the political process the rest of those who said anything at all about this nation were those who expressed their gratitude to the military for defending our 'freedom'.

The best 'testimony' came from a musical sister who played a particularly moving arrangement of "America the Beautiful". I've always felt America the Beautiful would make a much better national anthem than the one we have. Of course, the meeting opened with "The Star Spangled Banner" so everyone was activated to be on the 'bombs & rockets' theme.

I almost walked out a couple times....nothing personal or judgmental of any particular individual....just sickened by the extreme amount of pure ignorance across the board! Gonna be a rough ride over the next year or two as people wake up to reality.

Well, we did have a Native American investigator 'walk out' after hearing the first couple of testimonies from the white folks praising "our great nation & the military might which preserves our freedom". Come to think of it, there was only one Native American in attendance other than this investigator, and she is an 85 year old Saint. I have observed how terribly uncomfortable the Lakota, Mandan, Hidatsa, & Ojibwa people are on our 'patriotic' holidays.

Jason wrote:I almost walked out a couple times....nothing personal or judgmental of any particular individual....just sickened by the extreme amount of pure ignorance across the board! Gonna be a rough ride over the next year or two as people wake up to reality.

Over the next year or two? I've been waiting almost five years now for members of the Church to wake up. What makes you think the next two years will be any different, Jason?