LDS Freedom Forum

Rob wrote:

Jason wrote:I almost walked out a couple times....nothing personal or judgmental of any particular individual....just sickened by the extreme amount of pure ignorance across the board! Gonna be a rough ride over the next year or two as people wake up to reality.

Over the next year or two? I've been waiting almost five years now for members of the Church to wake up. What makes you think the next two years will be any different, Jason?

Economy - we've hit the debt saturation point!

The Lord is going to preach His own economic sermons...or at least the law of the harvest is going to take front and center.

My wife is the chorister so she had us sing "America the Beautiful". It was great. Specially the part about "patriots who see beyond the years". About 1/2 way through, the meeting was going nowhere so I stood up, being prompted of course, and started talking. I mentioned how the Constitution would "hang by a thread", but that the real wording of the prophecy was "it would be brought to the brink of destruction", or so. I mentioned that Joseph Smith issued hybrid mission/electioneering calles from the pulpit during general conference. Eyebrows raised! They raised higher when I mentioned that you would have known that if you read the ensign last year. I mentioned that Joseph said "there is no greater friend of the Constitution that I", and that the foundation upon which the church rests -- the stone that was cut out of the mountain without [the laying on of] hands was the declaration and the constitution -- this "strange act" that god was performing in these latter days. I thanked the brother who offered the invocation for his gratitude that we could attend church unmolested, but then mentioned that I lived in a military dictatorship for two years and attended church unmolested each sunday there, and that the real litmus test for liberty was not through what happened on Sunday, but what happens monday to saturday. I mentioned that the very reason we were there that day, was because of that document. I mentioned that July 4 was not just independence day, but the day Jefferson and Adams died -- the same day!. I mentioned that Adams' last words were "Jeffeson lives", followed by a clap of thunder. That it was Jefferson who died first, and undoubtedly came to get John later that day. You could have heard a pin drop. What a great high priest he is. What a true man, a true patriot. I pray we do not dishonor his memory. I mentioned these two men, on opposite ends of the political spectrum, wrote to each other over the last years of their lives and became amicable again. What a wonderful example of forgiveness and patience and brotherly love.

When I sat down, I saw one brother going through is D&C madly looking things up. He later asked me for a reference, which I gladly gave him. He was very receptive, he's a good man. Another brother said it was "a bloody shame" I am not asked to speak very often (once in 60+ months). The presiding counsellor in the bishopric said it was one of his favorite testimonies of all time. In general, it went very well, and why? Because the bishop was on holiday, and other leadership from the stake, who are not very receptive to this kind of talk, were not there. But who cares? When a sister comes up with tears in her eyes and the spirit is thick as pea soup, even a sister who has been a bit of a nemesis for me, but is no longer -- who can argue with that?

While bearing testimony, I mentioned the fact that there are movements afoot that are working to take our freedom away just as there were in Book of Mormon times. I was told later in the day by a ward member that I sounded like Glen Beck. I thought that was funny. I responded that it probably wasn't such a bad thing.

buffalo_girl wrote:

I almost walked out a couple times....nothing personal or judgmental of any particular individual....just sickened by the extreme amount of pure ignorance across the board! Gonna be a rough ride over the next year or two as people wake up to reality.

Well, we did have a Native American investigator 'walk out' after hearing the first couple of testimonies from the white folks praising "our great nation & the military might which preserves our freedom". Come to think of it, there was only one Native American in attendance other than this investigator, and she is an 85 year old Saint. I have observed how terribly uncomfortable the Lakota, Mandan, Hidatsa, & Ojibwa people are on our 'patriotic' holidays.

Its all perspective isn't it......which side of the gun you happen to be on....

Its all perspective isn't it......which side of the gun you happen to be on....

I believe the principles identified in the Declaration of Independence and those defined as constitutional law in the Constitution for the United States are intended to free the righteous people of the earth. The day will come when every nation and people will shout for joy just as king Mosiah's people did when they were convinced that they were capable of living by rule of law rather than by being subject to kings. (For the time, we are witnessing a frenzied effort to impose the luciferian counterfeit.)

37 And now it came to pass, after king Mosiah had sent these things forth among the people they were convinced of the truth of his words.
38 Therefore they relinquished their desires for a king, and became exceedingly anxious that every man should have an equal chance throughout all the land; yea, and every man expressed a willingness to answer for his own sins.
39 Therefore, it came to pass that they assembled themselves together in bodies throughout the land, to cast in their voices concerning who should be their judges, to judge them according to the law which had been given them; and they were exceedingly rejoiced because of the liberty which had been granted unto them.

When God's law is applied in our interaction with other 'cultures' we will become one people. No compulsion required!

Ephesians 2
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

Maybe that's why I love America the Beautiful. The Book of Mormon speaks to this entire American Continent - not just to what we now define as the United States - as does that great anthem, America the Beautiful. Needless to say, even our Founders were blindsided by their personal prejudices as we all are to a greater or lesser degree.

The United States is the laboratory in which the divine law of liberty was applied. We have had some success applying the law. Sadly, there has been and continues to be increasing corruption of it. The rest of the world wants us to succeed in upholding the law of liberty. They know how important it is.

That 'patriot dream' seems to look to the Millennial reign.

O beautiful for spacious skies,
For amber waves of grain,
For purple mountain majesties
Above the fruited plain!
America! America!
God shed his grace on thee
And crown thy good with brotherhood
From sea to shining sea!

O beautiful for pilgrim feet
Whose stern impassioned stress
A thoroughfare of freedom beat
Across the wilderness!
America! America!
God mend thine every flaw,
Confirm thy soul in self-control,
Thy liberty in law!

O beautiful for heroes proved
In liberating strife.
Who more than self their country loved
And mercy more than life!
America! America!
May God thy gold refine
Till all success be nobleness
And every gain divine!

O beautiful for patriot dream
That sees beyond the years
Thine alabaster cities gleam
Undimmed by human tears!
America! America!
God shed his grace on thee
And crown thy good with brotherhood
From sea to shining sea!

Katharine Lee Bates

Original_Intent wrote:I had to restrain myself in testimony meeting. An old WWII vet got up and said something along the lines of "Don't love your children so much that you don't let them serve their country." I strongly felt the spirit telling me tospeak against it, but I couldn;t find the words to do wo that would not have been open contention, and I couldn't bring myself to do it.

I'll raise my children to serve God, and if that service also entails serving their country, that is fine. And if it means losing their lives in RESTORING this country that is also fine. But I am NOT turning my kids over to the government meat grinder for the sake of "serving their country". Back in WW2 it may have been serving your country, now being in the service just means you are under orders of the Whore of Babylon.

Its been a whore since at least 1913 and likely longer. I think brother Brigham said the country started out wonderfully with the signing of the constitution and then went downhill from there.

Original_Intent wrote:I also should note that my bishop opened testimony with a strong testimony, and his wording led me to believe that he is very awake. We ahve never talked politics before. The spirit was very strongly felt by me and it made me very grateful to have a bishop who knows what is going on.

I'd rather hear a sincere testimony about the Constitution, or the importance of liberty, etc than easily 1/3 of what I typically hear in testimony meeting. (and I think having only 1/3 of testimony meeting typically wasted with travelogs, and other non-testimony fluff is a very positive thing. I have been in wards where hearing a testimony is the rarity.

several types of testimonies that I hear all the time:

thank-amony
hug-amony
baloney-amony
spank-amony
teach-amony

the HG can only testify when we bear testimony of the truth - he doesnt care or witness to these other types of "monys"

I was in Palo Alto for the fourth. Our testimony meeting was great the first half. Members were bearing powerful testimony about the atonement, Christ, the Book of Mormon and about ministering angels and personal revelation. Then three people spoke that totally drove the Spirit away. One testified how great the police were and how they are truly doing the Lord’s work. Another testified how great President Obama is and how thankful they were that the Senate and House were helping President Obama pass his agenda. Then the last person testified how great the troops and their wars are and how they hope they would be made even more powerful and have the opportunity to go to other nations and set up even more democracies. After that person sat down the bishop stood up and thanked everyone for bearing the truth. The ward then sung the war loving song “Battle Hymn of the Republic”.

After the first four or five testimonies I was thinking I have not felt the Spirit so strong in a testimony meeting in years and what a beautiful moment it was. Then the last three testimonies happened and then the bishop spoke and the ward sung the war song, all this made me felt so spiritually empty. I was not going say anything about it to my wife but she said she was so offended by the withdrawal of the Spirit she had to say something to me. It was such a night and day experience for us. The Spirit is light to me and when it withdrew it felt dark. Luckily in Sunday school I decided to attend Gospel Principles and the Spirit quickly returned when true principles were taught.

Mazal wrote: The ward then sung the war loving song “Battle Hymn of the Republic”.

Then the last three testimonies happened and then the bishop spoke and the ward sung the war song, all this made me felt so spiritually empty.

I always feel the spirit when I hear the Battle Hymn of the Republic sung. It's lyrics are beautiful.

I was in Palo Alto for the fourth. Our testimony meeting was great the first half. Members were bearing powerful testimony about the atonement, Christ, the Book of Mormon and about ministering angels and personal revelation. Then three people spoke that totally drove the Spirit away. One testified how great the police were and how they are truly doing the Lord’s work. Another testified how great President Obama is and how thankful they were that the Senate and House were helping President Obama pass his agenda. Then the last person testified how great the troops and their wars are and how they hope they would be made even more powerful and have the opportunity to go to other nations and set up even more democracies. After that person sat down the bishop stood up and thanked everyone for bearing the truth. The ward then sung the war loving song “Battle Hymn of the Republic”.

It almost seems like the devil is demanding 'equal time'.

shadow wrote:

Mazal wrote: The ward then sung the war loving song “Battle Hymn of the Republic”.

Then the last three testimonies happened and then the bishop spoke and the ward sung the war song, all this made me felt so spiritually empty.

I always feel the spirit when I hear the Battle Hymn of the Republic sung. It's lyrics are beautiful.

Different strokes for different folks.

buffalo_girl wrote:

I was in Palo Alto for the fourth. Our testimony meeting was great the first half. Members were bearing powerful testimony about the atonement, Christ, the Book of Mormon and about ministering angels and personal revelation. Then three people spoke that totally drove the Spirit away. One testified how great the police were and how they are truly doing the Lord’s work. Another testified how great President Obama is and how thankful they were that the Senate and House were helping President Obama pass his agenda. Then the last person testified how great the troops and their wars are and how they hope they would be made even more powerful and have the opportunity to go to other nations and set up even more democracies. After that person sat down the bishop stood up and thanked everyone for bearing the truth. The ward then sung the war loving song “Battle Hymn of the Republic”.

It almost seems like the devil is demanding 'equal time'.

Seems to be the case more and more.

Well, you do have to admit, both the government folks and the military are "great", as in really, really big. So there was a seed of truth to those "government-amonies".

Oh, Palo Alto (high stick). That explains it (somewhere near San Franscisco).

Mazal wrote:

shadow wrote:

Mazal wrote: The ward then sung the war loving song “Battle Hymn of the Republic”.

Then the last three testimonies happened and then the bishop spoke and the ward sung the war song, all this made me felt so spiritually empty.

I always feel the spirit when I hear the Battle Hymn of the Republic sung. It's lyrics are beautiful.

Different strokes for different folks.

I'm curious what part of the hymn is offensive to you?

Mazal wrote:. . . Then three people spoke that totally drove the Spirit away. . . .
After the first four or five testimonies I was thinking I have not felt the Spirit so strong in a testimony meeting in years . . . .
all this made me felt so spiritually empty. . .
she said she was so offended by the withdrawal of the Spirit . . .
The Spirit is light to me and when it withdrew it felt dark. . .
Luckily in Sunday school . . .the Spirit quickly returned when true principles were taught.

Hmm. Almost sounds like the Spirit is some air-borne particle that floats in and lands on you.

What's that Milton quote?

With what's coming on the horizon, I hope we are growing less dependent on our surroundings and circumstances for our spiritual condition.

I also love the Battle Hymn of the Republic.

shadow wrote: I'm curious what part of the hymn is offensive to you?

Not sure about him, but many find it offensive as the anthem of northern aggression.

Not sure about him, but many find it offensive as the anthem of northern aggression.

With most conflict a 'moral' or 'spiritual' justification for war is highly desirable to those orchestrating the whole business. If 'foot soldiers' are convinced they are fighting God's holy war against the foot soldiers of the devil, well then it's worth the agony and death inflicted all around.

The symbolism in the Battle Hymn of the Republic - published in 1862 in the Atlantic Monthly - suggests that Christ's judgement is against the wicked southern slave owner. Now, I know we are taught that the Civil War was all about freeing slaves. Maybe so, but I suspect there was a whole lot more to that conflict than most of us have been told. Anyway, the Battle Hymn is associated with Abolition and therefore righteous aggression against a rebellious South.

I imagine that when Christ returns to 'transfigure' the mortal creation He will do so more efficiently and without 'mighty & brave' mortal foot soldiers.

In the beauty of the lilies Christ was born across the sea,
With a glory in His bosom that transfigures you and me:
As He died to make men holy, let us die to make men free, (so we need to kill and be killed in order to be 'holy men'?)
While God is marching on.

He is coming like the glory of the morning on the wave,
He is wisdom to the mighty, He is succour to the brave, (mighty & brave = foot soldiers for Jesus?)
So the world shall be His footstool, and the soul of Time His slave,
Our God is marching on.

As a wee child, this song taught me to fear Christ. I've never liked it.

Now mind you, that is my opinion and the Battle Hymn is NOT scripture so if you love it, that's fine with me, but I don't have to.

buffalo_girl wrote: In the beauty of the lilies Christ was born across the sea,
With a glory in His bosom that transfigures you and me:
As He died to make men holy, let us die to make men free, (so we need to kill and be killed in order to be 'holy men'?)
While God is marching on.

He is coming like the glory of the morning on the wave,
He is wisdom to the mighty, He is succour to the brave, (mighty & brave = foot soldiers for Jesus?) (interesting interpretation)
So the world shall be His footstool, and the soul of Time His slave,
Our God is marching on.

I'm sure you're aware we're speaking of the LDS version which states "As He died to make men holy, let us live to make men free" ?? So you're interpretation of the LDS version we're speaking of is flawed.
I interpret the song as an anthem of the restoration of the gospel. I'm also not offended by the hymn "Who's on the Lords side, who?" which I suppose can be just as divisive as the other.

BTW, the hymns in the hymn book might not be scripture but they are all backed by scripture or they wouldn't be there

...as He died to make men holy,
...let us LIVE to make men free..

That may well be how the Choir sings it. I don't know.

It was written the other way. In any case, I simply find myself uncomfortable when war themes with 'marching' tunes & lyrics are applied to religion.

For a sermon regarding war brilliantly embedded in our National Anthem, I recommend Jimi Hendrix' rendition. He captures the US bombing of Vietnam with awesome genius. The entire video is 9 minutes long, but the National Anthem is only 4 minutes. No need to watch the rest.

The audio & video are primitive (1969).

http://www.myvideo.de/watch/5195282/Jim ... stock_1969

Now mind you, that is my opinion and the Battle Hymn is NOT scripture so if you love it, that's fine with me, but I don't have to.

If you want it to be scripture, it's all yours, Shadow.

All I need is "Ye Elders of Israel" and "The Spirit of God" for my "battle hymns". Both of those hymns I find inspiring and comforting. And they get me "pumped up".

buffalo_girl wrote:...as He died to make men holy,
...let us LIVE to make men free..

That may well be how the Choir sings it. I don't know.

It was written the other way. In any case, I simply find myself uncomfortable when war themes with 'marching' tunes & lyrics are applied to religion.

For a sermon regarding war brilliantly embedded in our National Anthem, I recommend Jimi Hendrix' rendition. He captures the US bombing of Vietnam with awesome genius. The entire video is 9 minutes long, but the National Anthem is only 4 minutes. No need to watch the rest.

The audio & video are primitive (1969).

http://www.myvideo.de/watch/5195282/Jim ... stock_1969

Now mind you, that is my opinion and the Battle Hymn is NOT scripture so if you love it, that's fine with me, but I don't have to.

If you want it to be scripture, it's all yours, Shadow.

Obviously we interpret the hymn differently and that's OK. Just an FYI though, it isn't just how the choir sings it ("Let us LIVE to make men free"), it's how it's written in the green hymn book found at any LDS church. Fortunately I don't interpret the hymn the way some others do (Jimmy Hendrix) nor do I take their interpretation as how it's supposed to be. I figure if it's in the hymn book and if many of our LDS prophets and apostles have quoted it then we must be interpreting it in a different light. I enjoy the hymn and I'm against war.

Original_Intent wrote:All I need is "Ye Elders of Israel" and "The Spirit of God" for my "battle hymns". Both of those hymns I find inspiring and comforting. And they get me "pumped up".

Agreed!! These are the songs that remind me of the continued war in heaven and staying valiant!

shadow wrote:I'm curious what part of the hymn is offensive to you?

Hi Shadow,

I hated this song since I was a kid because the author of the song really did not know the story of Christ; he was not born “In the beauty of the lilies”. He was born in a manger.
I thought it is embarrassing. Anyway too me it is strange that a Christian church would sing war songs to feel patriotic. Nowadays it feels like propaganda, throw in some bible sounding words and I can feel good about violence and the ends thereof. I am sick of the war drum always being beaten. I feel I can not even go to church and receive peace. It is depressing. I rather have sung “Sweet is the Peace the Gospel Brings”

buffalo_girl you bring up some good points.

Anyway has anyone seen Mark Twain’s version of the song?

Here it is:

Mine eyes have seen the orgy of the launching of the Sword;
He is searching out the hoardings where the stranger's wealth is stored;
He hath loosed his fateful lightnings, and with woe and death has scored;
His lust is marching on.

I have seen him in the watch-fires of a hundred circling camps;
They have builded him an altar in the Eastern dews and damps;
I have read his doomful mission by the dim and flaring lamps—
His night is marching on.

I have read his bandit gospel writ in burnished rows of steel:
"As ye deal with my pretensions, so with you my wrath shall deal;
Let the faithless son of Freedom crush the patriot with his heel;
Lo, Greed is marching on!"

We have legalized the strumpet and are guarding her retreat;*
Greed is seeking out commercial souls before his judgement seat;
O, be swift, ye clods, to answer him! be jubilant my feet!
Our god is marching on!

In a sordid slime harmonious Greed was born in yonder ditch,
With a longing in his bosom—and for others' goods an itch.
As Christ died to make men holy, let men die to make us rich—
Our god is marching on.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Battle ... c,_Updated

It made made me go wow when I first read it.

lundbaek wrote:Did anybody hear or have anything to say in your 4 July testimony meeting about the Declaration of Independence, or about the signers and others who played significant roles in the establishing of the United States of America? It was a great opportunity to awaken some people a bit more to the greatness of the Declaration of Independence and the men who signed it and the others who played significant roles in establishing the United States, and our duty to honour and befriend the US Constitution. I was able to do just that as a visitor in Heber, AZ, and included the April 1898 General Conference testimony of President Wilford Woodruff about the Founders appearing to him in the St. Geoprge Temple and demanding that their tempel ordinance work be done for them. As I finished, the bishop thanked me.

A few did, however I got to teach 3rd hour in HPG.
The topic was open, so I drafted my material form these 2 talks:

http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?h ... 82620aRCRD

http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?h ... 82620aRCRD

Got my old boys worked up.
I close by sending this picture around the room and had them comment on it:

http://www.ldsces.org/inst_manuals/pres ... 4-67-2.gif


A good 3rd hour.



njb