LDS Freedom Forum

It appears, Brian, that your opinions on the illegal immigration issue are still in the development stage. And I expect mine are also, although it may not appear so. I am not ready to give up on punishing business people who knowingly hire illegals. I still oppose any path to citizenship for illegals currently in the U.S.A. Deportation of illegals is not impossible as some would have us believe, although forced deportation may be unmerciful in many cases. I would like to see those individuals and organizations that have supported illegal immigrants and those businesses that hired illegals somehow forced to "donate" into a fund to support those illegals that cannot be deported without extreme hardship.

But, as I heard Elder Eyring say some time ago, the problem is going to continue and we are just going to have to live with it.

LDSConservative wrote:I oppose amnesty.
I oppose socialistic welfare benefits to anyone, especially non-citizens.

Wait, I may have mis-spoken....

Not sure that I oppose amnesty.... it depends on how you define amnesty, and how a particular amnesty bill is worded... I definitely believe there should be a process for becoming a citizen, and gaining the benefits of citizenship (such as the right to vote)... but in regards to legal or illegal status, and being able to come into this country, I like these scriptures:

"And behold, there was peace in all the land, insomuch that the Nephites did go into whatsoever part of the land they would, whether among the Nephites or the Lamanites.

"And it came to pass that the Lamanites did also go whithersoever they would, whether it were among the Lamanites or among the Nephites; and thus they did have free intercourse one with another, to buy and to sell, and to get gain, according to their desire.

"And it came to pass that they became exceedingly rich, both the Lamanites and the Nephites; and they did have an exceeding plenty of gold, and of silver, and of all manner of precious metals, both in the land south and in the land north." (Helaman 6:7-9)

It is true that my stance on immigration issues are still in the developmental stage... and what I am attempting to do is bring them inline with the scriptures and teachings of the prophets... I still have a lot of research do to in that regard. And I realize that one single scripture should not define my stance, but my stance will be defined by the overall message of a myriad of scriptures and words of the prophets.

There is a process for becoming a citizen; also for attaining legal residence. Just ask my wife. The process is selective, and rightfully so, I believe, because generally we are dealing with vastly different cultures with different standards of honesty and morality and political persuasions. I do not believe that granting amnesty and eventual citizenship and voting rights to those currently here illegally or intending to come here illegally will convert them to the constitutional principles many of us here espouse. It would, as planned by the LDGs, lead to more corruption, poverty, and crime.

I agree with almost all that was said on the podcast.

I especially agreed with; 'it's more evil to offer welfare benefits than to take it". Who is more evil,the person who steals a watch & then sells it or the one who buys the stolen watch? So who are we to talk about anyone being illegal? Offering welfare benefits (by stealing money from others) is more illegal, according to God's laws, than coming accross the border is.

But the speakers seemed to miss a major point. 'Protection' of that which we have stewardship over, be it a nation, a state, a home, a family, must be the 1st concern of any leader. While I believe God wants anyone to be able to freely come here & live, he does have certain standards that he expects them to accept & live by, before he wants us to let them come in. Just as he does for his Church, his temple & his heavenly Kingdoms of Glory. God expects his 'Stewards' to enforce these standards upon all who want to come here, in order to protect the people already here.

Immigration is not a bad thing or even something that should be curtailed, as long as we have room. But to let anyone & everyone come without making sure they will accept & abide by & honor our Constitution, is just as evil as offering them welfare. For both will destroy our nation.

Immigration must come with a firm set of standards to enjoy the privileges of this country. Though it says that everyone that comes here, comes because God allows them to, doesn't mean 'we' should allow them to. He does not usually step in & confront much evil on this earth, that is a job he gives us to do. Only when we fail to do so does he have to come in & wipe most everyone out because the Leaders & Stewards did not apply standards & consequences for breaking them.

Heavenly Father would never want us to just let anyone in our church or home without 1st making sure that they are safe & respectful & willing to abide by our good laws. The same is with our country. If someone wants to come in & live here, we must only let in those who will do so righteously & honor the Constitution.

That is also why 'borders' are so vital for our country, in a world where those who do evil will always try to get in. It's the same reason we have locks on our doors at home. We don't need borders around our States because everyone supposedly is a citizen of our nation & has already promised to abide by the Constitution. But those outside our nation, have not promised such yet. Thus the need for borders, to keep out those who will not abide by our good laws.

Protection of the good people already here comes 1st, above all else, or no one will be safe, not even those coming in.

Amore Vero wrote:I agree with almost all that was said on the podcast. ...But the speakers seemed to miss a major point. 'Protection' of that which we have stewardship over, be it a nation, a state, a home, a family, must be the 1st concern of any leader. While I believe God wants anyone to be able to freely come here & live, he does have certain standards that he expects them to accept & live by, before he wants us to let them come in. Just as he does for his Church, his temple & his heavenly Kingdoms of Glory. God expects his 'Stewards' to enforce these standards upon all who want to come here, in order to protect the people already here.

Obviously we can't cover every detail in just a short podcast, but I believe that some of your concerns would be eased given the opportunity to further discuss this.

BrianM wrote:

Amore Vero wrote:I agree with almost all that was said on the podcast. ...But the speakers seemed to miss a major point. 'Protection' of that which we have stewardship over, be it a nation, a state, a home, a family, must be the 1st concern of any leader. While I believe God wants anyone to be able to freely come here & live, he does have certain standards that he expects them to accept & live by, before he wants us to let them come in. Just as he does for his Church, his temple & his heavenly Kingdoms of Glory. God expects his 'Stewards' to enforce these standards upon all who want to come here, in order to protect the people already here.

Obviously we can't cover every detail in just a short podcast, but I believe that some of your concerns would be eased given the opportunity to further discuss this.

In that case, I am very impressed with your thinking & I am so glad to hear someone believes this way. Thank you so much for speaking out!

What about the Ford Foundation and other rich white men giving millions of dollars to La Raza, Mecha, etc, so that these latino groups have the money so they can preach their use of violence against white americans, and take back territory by force?? They get awful nasty....why are white men of wealth promoting that??

moonwhim wrote:What about the Ford Foundation and other rich white men giving millions of dollars to La Raza, Mecha, etc, so that these latino groups have the money so they can preach their use of violence against white americans, and take back territory by force?? They get awful nasty....why are white men of wealth promoting that??

so white reactionaries will demand that they "save" us from the "evil" Mexicans by taking away the liberty of all.

It's all been done before, and we fall for it every time.

Why did rich "capitalists" fund communism and communist front groups? Why did these same people fund the womens lib movement, the civil rights movement, the gay rights movement, the stages opposition to the WTO, etc, etc, etc?

It gives them more power either way. They give us the two options they want us to choose from and we bicker about which way we will be turned into slaves, instead of choosing the third option of freedom.

p51-mustang wrote:

obamohno wrote:Terms like immigration are just made up words that describe moving from a piece of land to another piece of land.

A person who wants to move around and take employment or resident voluntarily in an agreement with a company or housing etc should not be intercepted by thugs with guns (government)

Those who even use terms like illegal immigration are against the act of moving around and sustain the legitimacy that there is no property rights or ownership for individuals and that the government should control all property cause they own it.

Good point. I think you should move next door to the Utah state prison then ask them to unlock all the gates and let the inmates roam around your yard since we wouldnt want to restrict thier movement. You could invite them all into your house for dinner and a movie. Sounds like a good time!

A poorly thought out statement p51 but to salvage it with a response that can further this discussion I would say that if they were to let all inmates out then that would be justice for a big % of them who are incarcerated on non violent , no victim crimes, just people with personal vices, so lets not put violent dangerous people out all at once without any treatment or restitution which some could benefit from others not, but lets let out all non violent inmates that have no victims.

However, if some of these non-violent victimless inmates were good people but most importantly, non violent people (those who respect property, not people who advocate government force against peaceful people) I would love to invite them for some good food and conversation

In terms of immigration there are 2 BIG issues at play.

1) Having a core principle that a human being owns himself and the fruits of his/her labor (property) and that you can freely exchange it voluntarily with other humans

2) That violence/aggression shouldn't be used against peaceful people who are voluntarily transacting with other people who own businesses and property where nobody is being agressed upon.

You and others in this thread are really struggling with this, you want to think you are all about individuals and liberty, blah blah, but those are just catch phrases right now that people use to make them feel like less of an aggressive sheep and a willing slave.

Now if you don't have a firm principled stance in either of the 2 positions above which IMO you do not, then I cannot see you respecting human movement and these humans making deals and contracts and doing services for property and business owners. Most sad of all, you want thugs with guns to bully these people and possibly ruin their lives and negatively effect the businesses they were doing services for.

Sorry I haven't responded sooner...

If our government is so concerned with terrorism, why haven't they secured the border? It has been 9 years since 9/11. They aren't concerned with protecting America from terrorists, but they are determined to set up a police state in America, and 9/11 was their perfect cover to do that.....and they are going quickley now to accomplish that.

So they are allowing illegals to walk over our borders with virtually no stoppage.....we don't know any of their background, whether they are criminals or not......whether they are bringing with them terrible diseases or not.

I believe they are being allowed to cross our borders to change the social and political makeup of America. And the global elites like that and they support the mexican radicals with millions of dollars so they can eventually be used as cannon fodder if they need a revolution.....and thus speed up the creation of the North American Union, which will merge us with Mexico and Canada. The same thing is happening to western europe and they try to finish their European Union.....there Muslims are being brought in to help destroy their cultures and thus help the EU continue its growth.

So I think it is very important to the discussion here. We can have idealistic views of immigration.....but we need to know how the Gadiantons are really using immigration to destroy the foundations of many countries of the world.....and thus speed up the creation of thier world government dictatorship.

I personally feel that we should just get rid of america and her rules and boundaries and borders. Let's completely empower the worldwide government new world order illuminati crap now!. We could then let anyone go anywhere with no restrictions, since there will be no boundaries or countries. worldwide new age peace dude.

BrianM wrote:

LDSConservative wrote:I oppose amnesty.
I oppose socialistic welfare benefits to anyone, especially non-citizens.

Wait, I may have mis-spoken....

Not sure that I oppose amnesty.... it depends on how you define amnesty, and how a particular amnesty bill is worded... I definitely believe there should be a process for becoming a citizen, and gaining the benefits of citizenship (such as the right to vote)... but in regards to legal or illegal status, and being able to come into this country, I like these scriptures:

"And behold, there was peace in all the land, insomuch that the Nephites did go into whatsoever part of the land they would, whether among the Nephites or the Lamanites.

"And it came to pass that the Lamanites did also go whithersoever they would, whether it were among the Lamanites or among the Nephites; and thus they did have free intercourse one with another, to buy and to sell, and to get gain, according to their desire.

"And it came to pass that they became exceedingly rich, both the Lamanites and the Nephites; and they did have an exceeding plenty of gold, and of silver, and of all manner of precious metals, both in the land south and in the land north." (Helaman 6:7-9)

It is true that my stance on immigration issues are still in the developmental stage... and what I am attempting to do is bring them inline with the scriptures and teachings of the prophets... I still have a lot of research do to in that regard. And I realize that one single scripture should not define my stance, but my stance will be defined by the overall message of a myriad of scriptures and words of the prophets.

I think the key to being able to do what the Nephites and Lamanites did in the above scriptures was the fact that there was peace in all the land. There is most certainly not peace now. Look at all the violence spilling over the border from Mexico into the US. We would be more than foolish to open our borders more than they are now under these conditions. The Mexicans need to clean up their act first so we can have the peace that the Nephites and Lamanites had that allowed the freedom of movement. I am very much against amnesty and free entry into our country. We should defend our border much the same way the Mexicans defend their southern border.

Squally wrote:I personally feel that we should just get rid of america and her rules and boundaries and borders. Let's completely empower the worldwide government new world order illuminati crap now!. We could then let anyone go anywhere with no restrictions, since there will be no boundaries or countries. worldwide new age peace dude.

How about just not agressing against peaceful people and respecting property ownership? Let's understand this for starters.

Here's my plan for revamping immigration:

1. Phase out all government welfare programs.
2. Remove the Federal ban on illegal drugs and let states make their own laws.
3. Bring home all troops.

Then we can really talk about immigration. It should be noted that in the Book of Mormon, Moroni and other Nephite captains protected the borders of their land until there was peace with the Lamanites.

While we're trying to figure out whether to open our borders then, what are all those extra troops going to do? If the data I have is correct (border approx. 4000 miles long, approx 350,00 troops abroad), we could put one foreign deployed soldier every 60 feet along the southern border.

roserum wrote:Here's my plan for revamping immigration:

1. Phase out all government welfare programs.
2. Remove the Federal ban on illegal drugs and let states make their own laws.
3. Bring home all troops.

I would add another

4. End foreign aid.

no one can fix their own nation while we are spending billions to prop up their dictators.

Mahonri wrote:It gives them more power either way. They give us the two options they want us to choose from and we bicker about which way we will be turned into slaves, instead of choosing the third option of freedom.

Mahonri wrote:

roserum wrote:Here's my plan for revamping immigration:

1. Phase out all government welfare programs.
2. Remove the Federal ban on illegal drugs and let states make their own laws.
3. Bring home all troops.

I would add another

4. End foreign aid.

no one can fix their own nation while we are spending billions to prop up their dictators.

Why not just make government services voluntary and remove the monopoly that government has on certain services and open them up to the free market?

Would you be confident enough in your government to compete against the free market and the voluntary choices of a human being?

obamohno wrote:

Mahonri wrote:

roserum wrote:Here's my plan for revamping immigration:

1. Phase out all government welfare programs.
2. Remove the Federal ban on illegal drugs and let states make their own laws.
3. Bring home all troops.

I would add another

4. End foreign aid.

no one can fix their own nation while we are spending billions to prop up their dictators.

Why not just make government services voluntary and remove the monopoly that government has on certain services and open them up to the free market?

Would you be confident enough in your government to compete against the free market and the voluntary choices of a human being?

government has no authority to compete against the free market, especially when you are talking about the feds

obamohno wrote:Why not just make government services voluntary and remove the monopoly that government has on certain services and open them up to the free market?

Why? Because that's not how the Lord has intended it to be.

"WE believe that governments were instituted of God for the benefit of man; and that he holds men accountable for their acts in relation to them, both in making laws and administering them, for the good and safety of society.

"We believe that no government can exist in peace, except such laws are framed and held inviolate as will secure to each individual the free exercise of conscience, the right and control of property, and the protection of life.

"We believe that all governments necessarily require civil officers and magistrates to enforce the laws of the same; and that such as will administer the law in equity and justice should be sought for and upheld by the voice of the people if a republic, or the will of the sovereign."

BrianM wrote:

obamohno wrote:Why not just make government services voluntary and remove the monopoly that government has on certain services and open them up to the free market?

Why? Because that's not how the Lord has intended it to be.

"WE believe that governments were instituted of God for the benefit of man; and that he holds men accountable for their acts in relation to them, both in making laws and administering them, for the good and safety of society.

"We believe that no government can exist in peace, except such laws are framed and held inviolate as will secure to each individual the free exercise of conscience, the right and control of property, and the protection of life.

"We believe that all governments necessarily require civil officers and magistrates to enforce the laws of the same; and that such as will administer the law in equity and justice should be sought for and upheld by the voice of the people if a republic, or the will of the sovereign."

Oh I see, so you support government monopolies and no free market because your personal belief is that is not what God intended it to be?

So a perfect moral being like God would rather human beings use force and not free choice and association?

Just like so many Christian beliefs about God, that doesn't seem like a very moral being to me.

Now, there are many interpretations people have so I will limit yours to yourself.

But just to clarify, you have stated that God is against both

Making government services voluntary

and

Removing the forced monopoly that government has and opening them up to a free market.


What a nice guy he is wanting me to be a slave and to be in jail if I don't pay for these services that are being forced on me.

Now again, I am just talking about the God you envision is up there, not the interpretation that others on this board may have.

government has no authority to compete against the free market, especially when you are talking about the feds

So you don't think that the "Constitution" allows for so called "states" to extract taxation from so called "citizens" at the threat of penalty/violence?

You don't feel that the Constitution supports that since 51% want some illegal that the victims of this law are subject to penalties/violence being used against them?

Mahonri wrote:

obamohno wrote:
Oh I see, so you support government monopolies and no free market because your personal belief is that is not what God intended it to be?

So a perfect moral being like God would rather human beings use force and not free choice and association?

Just like so many Christian beliefs about God, that doesn't seem like a very moral being to me.

Now, there are many interpretations people have so I will limit yours to yourself.

But just to clarify, you have stated that God is against both

Making government services voluntary

and

Removing the forced monopoly that government has and opening them up to a free market.


What a nice guy he is wanting me to be a slave and to be in jail if I don't pay for these services that are being forced on me.

Now again, I am just talking about the God you envision is up there, not the interpretation that others on this board may have.

Do you feel God would be against government services being voluntary and the removal of the monopoly and opening them up to the free market?

If not then how can you be an advocate for freedom?

obamohno,

A study of the scriptures and teachings of the prophets will reveal that what you are saying is not the Proper role of government, and not what was intended when God instituted government among men.

What you are promoting is a libertarian philosophy contrary to God's Law and revealed words on Government.

I propose for further study (to all): D&C 134, The many articles on http://www.latterdayconservative.com and also books by Ezra Taft Benson, H. Verlan Andersen as well as John Taylor's "Government of God".

To add to this...

A common concept that many libertarians fail to grasp:

Force itself is not necessarily good or bad. But there is good force and there is bad force. Just like government is a tool that can be used righteously or unrighteously.

An example of good force? The Revolution - fighting for freedom. Captain Moroni and the Title of Liberty (Kingmen vs Freemen) - compelling people to stand up in defense of Liberty. Force is often used to meet the demands of Justice, to enact the law of retribution and restoration. REMEMBER: Force is a tool; can be used for good or bad.

In the Proper Role of Government by Ezra Taft Benson, he taught that it is "a violation of the Constitution for government to deprive the individual of either life, liberty, or property except for these purposes:

(a) Punish crime and provide for the administration of justice;
(b) Protect the right and control of private property;
(c) Wage defensive war and provide for the nation’s defense;
(d) Compel each one who enjoys the protection of government to bear his fair share of the burden of performing the above functions."

Unfortunately it is sometimes necessary to use force in obtaining and/or maintaining a free society... and in order to enjoy the blessings of Liberty.