LDS Freedom Forum

THE OTHER FOOT DROPS.

http://comments.americanthinker.com/rea ... 25993.html

SmallFarm wrote:

Legal vs. Illegal

But is a law that prevents anyone from coming here a just law.

That is a whole different issue. If a law isn't just then every effort should be made to "lawfully" change the law. Otherwise you start down the road to anarchy.....or martial law. Which happens to be the course we are on....

Original_Intent wrote:The real root of the problem is our social programs.

The whole problem is people coming here illegally and not paying into the sytem but getting the benefits that the taxpayer supports.

Get rid of ALL and yes I mean ALL social programs, let people spend their money as they see fit, pay for their kids education (or provide it themselves) Pay their health care costs (and have charities to help provide for the needy that people can voluntarily support the ones they want.)

Do that and throw open the borders.

The real root of the problem is wickedness/selfishness.....on all sides!

If your city was next next door to a prison would you say " lets open the doors so we can have free trade with the convicts?" This is what we get with Mexico, a largely corrupt nation filled with many criminals. In SLC illegals make up 5 percent of the population yet they commit 40% of the crime. So yes, lets just open the doors and invite more of that in to our nation. Brilliant!!!

p51-mustang wrote:If your city was next next door to a prison would you say " lets open the doors so we can have free trade with the convicts?" This is what we get with Mexico, a largely corrupt nation filled with many criminals. In SLC illegals make up 5 percent of the population yet they commit 40% of the crime. So yes, lets just open the doors and invite more of that in to our nation. Brilliant!!!

This reminds me of stories I've heard of the way people used to talk about native americans and why we needed to put them on reservations. People used to generalize and call them "criminals" too, simply because they had a higher percentage of criminallity among them.

SmallFarm wrote:

p51-mustang wrote:If your city was next next door to a prison would you say " lets open the doors so we can have free trade with the convicts?" This is what we get with Mexico, a largely corrupt nation filled with many criminals. In SLC illegals make up 5 percent of the population yet they commit 40% of the crime. So yes, lets just open the doors and invite more of that in to our nation. Brilliant!!!

This reminds me of stories I've heard of the way people used to talk about native americans and why we needed to put them on reservations. People used to generalize and call them "criminals" too, simply because they had a higher percentage of criminallity among them.

Look at mexico as a nation if you want to know what the people will do and act like as a culture and race. To assume the people coming here illegally are any better than the people in the nation of Mexico is interesting, and to claim this seem to go against the evidence of the nation and their history, politics, crime, drugs, prostitution, kidnappings, etc etc. Obviously this is collective and not individually a perfect analysis. But you can get some idea of the people by looking at the bigger picture.

SmallFarm wrote:

p51-mustang wrote:If your city was next next door to a prison would you say " lets open the doors so we can have free trade with the convicts?" This is what we get with Mexico, a largely corrupt nation filled with many criminals. In SLC illegals make up 5 percent of the population yet they commit 40% of the crime. So yes, lets just open the doors and invite more of that in to our nation. Brilliant!!!

This reminds me of stories I've heard of the way people used to talk about native americans and why we needed to put them on reservations. People used to generalize and call them "criminals" too, simply because they had a higher percentage of criminallity among them.

I realize that many of the Mexicans are good humble people and I would welcome them here. Lets open up the immigration process and make sure that only people who are upstanding can come in. We have a right to control who comes into the country. Why do we have locks on our doors at home? Its so we can control who comes into our homes..right? A nation is also our home and we have a right and obligation to make sure only law abiding and decent people come in to it. Now if we can just come up with some kind of catapult system we can use to fling American criminals, deadbeats, and politicians out of the nation....

p51-mustang wrote:

SmallFarm wrote:

p51-mustang wrote:If your city was next next door to a prison would you say " lets open the doors so we can have free trade with the convicts?" This is what we get with Mexico, a largely corrupt nation filled with many criminals. In SLC illegals make up 5 percent of the population yet they commit 40% of the crime. So yes, lets just open the doors and invite more of that in to our nation. Brilliant!!!

This reminds me of stories I've heard of the way people used to talk about native americans and why we needed to put them on reservations. People used to generalize and call them "criminals" too, simply because they had a higher percentage of criminallity among them.

I realize that many of the Mexicans are good humble people and I would welcome them here. Lets open up the immigration process and make sure that only people who are upstanding can come in. We have a right to control who comes into the country. Why do we have locks on our doors at home? Its so we can control who comes into our homes..right? A nation is also our home and we have a right and obligation to make sure only law abiding and decent people come in to it. Now if we can just come up with some kind of catapult system we can use to fling American criminals, deadbeats, and politicians out of the nation....

I agree with this post

p51-mustang wrote:Now if we can just come up with some kind of catapult system we can use to fling American criminals, deadbeats, and politicians out of the nation....

I'd quickly tradem' one of our deadbeats for 1000 of those hard working souls from Guatemala....

Terms like immigration are just made up words that describe moving from a piece of land to another piece of land.

A person who wants to move around and take employment or resident voluntarily in an agreement with a company or housing etc should not be intercepted by thugs with guns (government)

Those who even use terms like illegal immigration are against the act of moving around and sustain the legitimacy that there is no property rights or ownership for individuals and that the government should control all property cause they own it.

obamohno wrote:Terms like immigration are just made up words that describe moving from a piece of land to another piece of land.

A person who wants to move around and take employment or resident voluntarily in an agreement with a company or housing etc should not be intercepted by thugs with guns (government)

Those who even use terms like illegal immigration are against the act of moving around and sustain the legitimacy that there is no property rights or ownership for individuals and that the government should control all property cause they own it.

Good point. I think you should move next door to the Utah state prison then ask them to unlock all the gates and let the inmates roam around your yard since we wouldnt want to restrict thier movement. You could invite them all into your house for dinner and a movie. Sounds like a good time!

obamohno wrote:Terms like immigration are just made up words that describe moving from a piece of land to another piece of land.

A person who wants to move around and take employment or resident voluntarily in an agreement with a company or housing etc should not be intercepted by thugs with guns (government)

Those who even use terms like illegal immigration are against the act of moving around and sustain the legitimacy that there is no property rights or ownership for individuals and that the government should control all property cause they own it.

Amen.

LDSConservative wrote:

obamohno wrote:Terms like immigration are just made up words that describe moving from a piece of land to another piece of land.

A person who wants to move around and take employment or resident voluntarily in an agreement with a company or housing etc should not be intercepted by thugs with guns (government)

Those who even use terms like illegal immigration are against the act of moving around and sustain the legitimacy that there is no property rights or ownership for individuals and that the government should control all property cause they own it.

Amen.

You guys really need to rethink this. You realize that TPTB are using the mexicans to undermine the stability of america, right? So when you say the US has no right to control who comes into the country because it implies ownership, that is like saying that I dont really own my house so anyone can walk in to my house any time they want? sheesh....

You realize the constitution empowers the Feds to defend the country against invasion, right? What is the difference between an invading army of 100,000 men or an invasion of 20 million mexicans, 100,000 of which are hard core criminals, drug cartel and gang members? The point is that the feds have an obligation to screen everyone that comes into the country to make sure those entering are trustworthy individuals. My sister in law is a criminal by the way and I DO NOT let her in my home!!!! I have an obligation to my children and wife regarding their safety. I would never let her come and go as she pleased on my property. The same principle applies regarding entry into this country.

I am surprised that Brian is making this argument. He is usually so thoughtful in his approach. I can tell that he hasnt thought this one out thouroughly...The next thing I might hear you guys promote is that checkpoints at military bases, locks on homes and buildings, security for the prophet and for the president of the united states should be removed? Is this the next step? Total removal of all internal security measures since it "impedes free intercourse and trade?"

It is nice to note somebody else recognizes that mass immigration from and thru Mexico is one of several things that the LDGs are using to destablize the United States by destroying our economy, industry, culture and altering our national political persuasions. For sure the Lord knows this is going on, and I'm sure the Prophet knows also. As a nation we have brought this upon ourselves; LDSs especially because we as a people mostly ignored warnings and instructions by both ancient and latter-day prophets on how to prevent this. I believe this mass immigration is being used by the Lord as a richly deserved chastisement, among other things.

People who consider U.S. immigration laws unfair and immoral are free to advocate for change in those laws. I think they are still able to sponsor qualified immigrants if willing and able to accept the financial responsibilities. But to support open borders is to support dumping welfare cases on other people. And I consider that as immoral as any other form of legalized plunder. My wife has been thru the immigration process 3 times, 2 times because we had resided outside the US longer than 2 years. I had plenty of opportunity to learn about restrictions on immigration existing at those times, and I fully support them. I still vividly recall an immigration officer in the US Consulate in Frankfurt, Germany telling us how he agonized over certain situations involving immigration applicants with "a rap sheet as long as their arm", married to a US citizen whom, in some cases they had snagged for the obvioous purpose of gaining a ticked to the u.S,. pregnant and/or with a child or two already. I also remember in the 1950s some church organizations were sponsoring immigrants from Europe. Some did well for themselves, a few became welfare cases.

FEMA Camps are good place for illegal

Maybe the indians should of made the pilgrims on the Mayflower go through those same "procedure"

See, Smallfarm, that is the problem. The Indians did not protect their country and require those who entered to qualify. Look what that did for them. They lost their country, ideals and the country they once knew never existed after that.
We are trying to prevent that. We do not want criminals, terrorists etc. coming in freely and taking over our country. We (and this should include you because it is your country too) only want good decent people entering in our country and making it their home. That takes time to sort out and does not happen over night.

The Indians did not protect their country and require those who entered to qualify

But it's a good thing they didn't.

It appears the Utah state legislature has decided to pull food stamps from illegals. Now here is an excellent opportunity for supporters of illegal immigration to put their moneyb where their mouths are and donate money, goods or whatever to those illegals who will have their food stamps cut off.

http://sltrib.com/sltrib/opinion/499039 ... d.html.csp

p51-mustang wrote:You guys really need to rethink this.... I am surprised that Brian is making this argument. He is usually so thoughtful in his approach. I can tell that he hasnt thought this one out thouroughly...The next thing I might hear you guys promote is that checkpoints at military bases, locks on homes and buildings, security for the prophet and for the president of the united states should be removed? Is this the next step? Total removal of all internal security measures since it "impedes free intercourse and trade?"

Don't put words into my mouth.

You don't fully understand my position on immigration. I haven't posted it online. But I certainly have put a lot of thought into the issue. But don't assume you know all my thoughts on immigration.

lundbaek wrote:It appears the Utah state legislature has decided to pull food stamps from illegals...

Too bad they didn't go far enough... should have pulled food stamps from ALL.

LDSConservative wrote:

lundbaek wrote:It appears the Utah state legislature has decided to pull food stamps from illegals...

Too bad they didn't go far enough... should have pulled food stamps from ALL.

and medicare, unemployment, schooling (can't do that, it's in the state Constitution forced on us by the Gentiles) and a good chunk of State agencies.

LDSConservative wrote:

p51-mustang wrote:You guys really need to rethink this.... I am surprised that Brian is making this argument. He is usually so thoughtful in his approach. I can tell that he hasnt thought this one out thouroughly...The next thing I might hear you guys promote is that checkpoints at military bases, locks on homes and buildings, security for the prophet and for the president of the united states should be removed? Is this the next step? Total removal of all internal security measures since it "impedes free intercourse and trade?"

Don't put words into my mouth.

You don't fully understand my position on immigration. I haven't posted it online. But I certainly have put a lot of thought into the issue. But don't assume you know all my thoughts on immigration.

We would be interested in your views. Lets hear it so we dont speculate on your viewpoint.

I agree with Lundbaek on this issue. Again, I'd refer back to my previous post regarding the development of a Zion law for immigration with a Socialist system of government. It's like choosing to pee into the Amazon when you know there are candiru hanging around in the water. All you will do by opening our border is to attract parasites until you remove the bait. My four year old can tell you, a symbiotic relationship is better.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8YKAalZAqO4

BTW - Lundbaek... our stake is noticing. We've been asked to donate food to people in the stake. I have word that these people are illegals who are unable to get assistance right now. I was a little uneasy with it at first, because I feel like we are knowingly enabling them, but in the end we decided that part wasn't up to us.

Our stake has asked for donations to enable boys in the Hispanic branch in our stake to attend scout camp.

I still support deportation, severe punishment of those who hire illegals, closing the border, and I ooppose amnesty. Yet some little birdie keeps reminding me of Elder Eyring having told a group I was part of that the First Presidency felt (in late 2006 or early 2007 I think it was) that the immigration problem would continue and we will just "have to live with it." That same little birdie keeps reminding me that illegal immigration has been fomented by elements within our own government. That problem I can trace back in my own mind to those Americans who suffered the murderous combinations (a.k.a. latter-day gadiantons0 to get above us, including members of the Church who failed to heed the warnings of Nephi, Moroni, President Benson, and others as well.

But I still get angry at people who advocate extending welfare benes to illegals, especially benes greater than US citizens are getting. And No, I don't hate them. But I have every right to be angry at anyone who supports legalized plunder for any purpose. The idea that I must contribute to a cause I oppose just doesn't cut it with me.

lundbaek wrote:I still support deportation, severe punishment of those who hire illegals, closing the border, and I ooppose amnesty.... I still get angry at people who advocate extending welfare benes to illegals, especially benes greater than US citizens are getting. And No, I don't hate them. But I have every right to be angry at anyone who supports legalized plunder for any purpose. The idea that I must contribute to a cause I oppose just doesn't cut it with me.

Without going into a whole bunch of details... while I don't agree with you on everything, here's what I definitely agree with:

I oppose amnesty.
I oppose socialistic welfare benefits to anyone, especially non-citizens.